Guild Wars 2

MOOD & TONE

Heart of Thorns is obviously alluding to Game of Thrones…very clever marketing, but I hope it is more than just marketing. GoT has a very dark and violent mood and tone in both the series and books. I truly hope that this is what ArenaNet has planned for Heart of Thorns, especially considering the ending of season 2 and what we learn about Caithe’s dirty deed.

Please, Anet, stop with the kiddy storytelling and lame characterizations with the very cheesy dialogue. You have a rich world full of very interesting lore, but the WAY it is being told can be a lot better. Always appeal to your audience, and I am assuming the majority of the player base (with money for gems) are over 20 years of age. I’m 34. Give us a darker fantasy world that truly lives up to the allusion that your expansion is making.

ORR FIX

This is incredibly easy in concept. Assuming a player is completely new, allow him or her to play GW2 with Orr completely redone in order to show the current state of the game’s plot not the personal story. Living world? Then it mustn’t be static, Orr needs to change just like Lion’s Arch.

Problem: what about the personal story?

Solution: the personal story should be viewed as a flashback in the story journal. It can either be completely ignored or played through entirely and when it comes time for the new player to play through Orr, then all of Orr is a story instance through the story journal. Turn what Orr is now into a huge instance. That way those maps aren’t completely lost, and friends can join a newer player without being blocked out from phasing technology like in WoW and ESO.

The story journal used to house the personal story which is viewed as a flashback is completely believable, saves content, and allows for newer content that supports Anet’s philosophy of a living world.

That is the best of both worlds…..see what I did there? ;-)

I really don’t see any sort of connection between Heart of Thorns and Game of Thrones actually. Other than the titles consisting of Word + of + Word-starting-with-Th.

You have to keep in mind that the game is rated T. They would never be able to do a GoT-level story seeing as that is rated M. I would also claim that age have very little to do with maturity and such. There are plently of 30+ people that are on the same level as a 15 year old, while there are some 15 year olds that are just as mature as someone twice their age.

And I would actually claim that the game is quite dark already.
Genocide, condemning a whole country to eternal suffering, torture and mass murder is quite dark in my eyes.

It’s the way the story it’s portrayed, not the concepts within, that are lightweight. It’s the execution, not the setting.

And we have been claiming for months for a change in tone. But some in the writing team disagree and prefer the comic-relief and banter we have seen in S1 and to a minor degree in S2.

/SAD

+1 (mostly)
I do not see there being a link between HoT and GoT, nor should it be. Tyria got its own story, and it’s a wonderful one!

That said: I think Rhaegar hit the nail here: “It’s the way the story is portrayed, not the concepts within, that are lightweight”. The game is cluttered with comic-relief, some of it well done, some of it not so much.
IMO: Instead of adding to the game, it shadows and come in conflicts with some of the greater and darker tales. It “dumbs down” the game, and contributes in hiding the truly interesting plots.

Regarding separate instanced PS maps for old versions of LA and Orr: yes please. Though I don’t know if making a total revamp of Orr will be worth it. First of all I’d like to see old LA back in Personal Story. That content is already there, and should be fairly easy to implement at the cost of some MBs.

I think at some point one of the Devs mentioned that the way instances were implemented, they grab content from the “live” versions of the map, which is why you see destroyed LA in PS steps.

So it seems it wouldn’t be that simple to have separate versions.

What that says to me is that there was a discussion at some point about it and in the end, perhaps in hopes of improving optimization or performance, they opted for this.

If there was no discussion, then that’s a terrible lack of foresight from the developers.

I don’t see the cleansing of Orr as a priority. What would Orr even be if it were cleansed? Right now, Orr is an epic struggle between Zhaitan and the Pact. If it were to stop being that, what would be in the zone, instead?

Koviko.3248:

I don’t see the cleansing of Orr as a priority. What would Orr even be if it were cleansed? Right now, Orr is an epic struggle between Zhaitan and the Pact. If it were to stop being that, what would be in the zone, instead?

Peace. Priory digsite. Flora slowly being restored to how it was before the Cataclysm. Perhaps some Priory teams trying to recreate old buildings (ref. Acropolis).

A very interesting prospect for someone (me), who is “mildly” obsessed with the Orrian kingdom and its former glory. However, from a gameplay viewpoint: there wouldn’t be anything there at all, and it’s better off as it currently is (1325AE version).

From an exploration standpoint, it’d be very interesting. Even the little tidbits we do get about Orr are pretty awesome (especially all the lore on the Vizier’s Tower).

Sadly, exploration isn’t enough to keep a zone lively, nor does it provide many opportunities for players to level from 7X to 80.

What gameplay would there be in a purified Orr?

What events would there be?

What reason to return there would there be (for non-lore-focused players)?

And do those answers supersede the pain of phasing maps, or messing with the Personal Story?

For those four answers, Orr will never be purified.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What gameplay would there be in a purified Orr?

What events would there be?

What are the primary differences between these? To me gameplay is the mechanics and that wouldn’t really change, but the events would.

Events could start with clearning Orr of risen. At one point in the PS it’s revealed that Zhaitan has some sort of corrupted temple as a factory where corpses are turned into risen. There could be a meta chain leading up to destroying one of these each month or something. Make 4 or so for each Orr map and you’d have them cleared after a year.

After they’re destroyed we spend a year “mopping up” stragglers. IE risen would still spawn but in fewer amounts over the next year or two. During this time other natural (non risen) mobs that we see in other maps would migrate to the area and claim it. Maybe the other dragons try to claim the territory to get at Zhaitans’ body?

During and after the clearing/migration of new mobs we could move to protecting settlers. Carve out a place for a new village or city, then protect it from mobs after. Meta events to clean out and repair the temples to the old gods or to fix the destroyed land so it can be farmed/habitable for others.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What reason to return there would there be (for non-lore-focused players)?

New events. Potentially new mobs that migrate from the south or from the ring of fire.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And do those answers supersede the pain of phasing maps, or messing with the Personal Story?

Absolutely. This is the living world. To me it’s been a total misnomer and a let down. The world and it’s maps need to update and change to actually realize it’s potential. The PS should be phased out and replaced with a new PS for a post Zhaitan world or scrapped completely and made into a fractal.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For those four answers, Orr will never be purified.

For whatever reason, Anet doesn’t seem inclined and/or able to create massive updates. Perhaps its a management vision issue or perhaps its just an unavailable resource issue but for whatever the reason, this kind of update is beyond the scope of anything we’ve seen Anet do so far. As I’ve stated before, they won’t even update npc dialogue so hoping for this is a pipe dream.

Rhaegar.1203:

It’s the way the story it’s portrayed, not the concepts within, that are lightweight. It’s the execution, not the setting.

And we have been claiming for months for a change in tone. But some in the writing team disagree and prefer the comic-relief and banter we have seen in S1 and to a minor degree in S2.

/SAD

I agree, I wish they would develop the story in a more mature style. A well told story will attract a bigger audience than a story that’s overly tuned for a teen audience. But preferences are like opinions…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What gameplay would there be in a purified Orr?

What events would there be?

What reason to return there would there be (for non-lore-focused players)?

And do those answers supersede the pain of phasing maps, or messing with the Personal Story?

For those four answers, Orr will never be purified.

I could ask you the same 4 questions about any given map. Like Kessex Hills, prior to Tower of Nightmares. What is out there? Some Centaur camps, a Sylvari outposts and a few bandits. Nothing major, to be honest. Yet it is a full map with hearts, POI and vistas, as well as skill points.

Just because YOU don’t see how or what to develop, doesn’t mean their creative team doesn’t, either.

Let’s see, brainstorming in 30 seconds.

Maybe a Char faction (Blood) would want to resume the job they couldn’t complete 250+ years ago. Then, a few humans decide, well, that is just not cool, Orr was a HUMAN kingdom before the fall, let’s retake it now that it’s starting to heal. The 3 regions could then become a dynamic battle line, not unlike the one seen in the Factions campaign, back in GW1.

But, Sylvari could say, now, hold your horses, people. Someone from OUR race cleansed this land, we have a claim. And Asura can also waddle along and try to study the Artisan Waters and what not. BOOM, conflict right there.

Original? Maybe not. Rushed? Hellz yah, I thought it on 30 seconds. Then again, I don’t write/design games for a living, so perhaps the talented folks at Anet can do a far better job.

@Torsailr & @Rhaegar:

The things that both of you suggested are the kinds of things that would basically be an expansion. It isn’t as simple as just altering Orr. This is basically creating new maps. Not only would the maps themselves need to be altered, but all of the content would be completely new. On 3 large maps. And both of your suggestions imply major story arcs. ANet doesn’t do multiple story arcs simultaneously as it’d spread out the player base.

Not only would Orr need to be changed, but the Personal Story would need to be changed. This isn’t to say that the Personal Story shouldn’t be changed, anyway (I’d personally love to see the same system used for LS S2 in the PS so it’d be replayable), since the Personal Story would be much stronger if it were linear and took advantage of the new cinematic style that ANet has been experimenting with. However, this is no small task. Remember that the Personal Story was part of the “things to fix from GW1” list that GW2 was meant to fulfill. The PS is the open-world MMO version of the instanced storytelling of GW1. That ideology — coupled with the fact that red posts on the matter always seem to imply that changing the PS is hard to do — implies that simply changing the PS is no simple task.

Your ideas are very cool (especially the gradual cleansing suggested by Torsailr), but a bit unrealistic to expect of ANet at the moment. They are currently focused on delivering new content instead of modifying old content. I wouldn’t expect to see any updates to Orr or the Personal Story until after we are done the Mordremoth arc.

Yes, setting something like this up does require a lot of up front resources, but once it is set up it requires similar upkeep that the current patches do. This expansion would be the perfect time to do it too; updating Orr at the same time as opening up Mordy would take this expansion from small and (kinda blah so far) to OMFG! At least for me.

I’m not unaware of the challenges involved in doing this which is why I agree that it’s unrealistic. Doesn’t mean I can’t hope.

Well, first of all, PS should definitely be seen as a flashback. No doubt about it be the perfect solution to clear the path for new content.

So lets say (hope) that ANet also think that way. If it’s true, at this point they should have already a good ideia of what should happen with Orr in the future. And since what may be holding them back to implement changes as an entire map redesign with brand new events, plots and NPCs is lack of resourses/time, why don’t just show off some minor changes that just point the way? Maybe just update the NPCs quotes of Pact posts of Orr and include/switch some events to something post Zhaitan. IMO, changes like these would be enough to give players some perspective and mostly the feel that Orr is still alive as a playable zone.

(sry for any grammar glitches)
edit: grammar

Torsailr.8456:

What are the primary differences between these? To me gameplay is the mechanics and that wouldn’t really change, but the events would.

What would playing through Orr provide?

What would the events focus with?

In a purified Orr, the risen wouldn’t be (as big of) a threat. What is there to do without a threat? It’d just turn Orr into three cities, effectively.

That’s boring, a waste of space and content, and removes too much with too little gain.

And your suggestions? They just stall the loss of content, by creating temporary content.

Torsailr.8456:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And do those answers supersede the pain of phasing maps, or messing with the Personal Story?

Absolutely. This is the living world. To me it’s been a total misnomer and a let down. The world and it’s maps need to update and change to actually realize it’s potential. The PS should be phased out and replaced with a new PS for a post Zhaitan world or scrapped completely and made into a fractal.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For those four answers, Orr will never be purified.

For whatever reason, Anet doesn’t seem inclined and/or able to create massive updates. Perhaps its a management vision issue or perhaps its just an unavailable resource issue but for whatever the reason, this kind of update is beyond the scope of anything we’ve seen Anet do so far. As I’ve stated before, they won’t even update npc dialogue so hoping for this is a pipe dream.

There is a reason why the vast majority of players hated Season 1.

Because it was temporary.

Because you could not replay it months later.

Because new and returning players were left going “wtf happened” and missing out on things.

This is why they stopped the process of Season 1 – what you’re wanting – and went with Season 2.

They gave up on a true Living World. Because the majority of players disliked, and continue to show that dislike, of the concept. Because it was a waste of resources and developer times for too little profit and usage by the audience.

It’d be like filming the lord of the rings and having it premiere once, only once, and then destroying the films.

Rhaegar.1203:

I could ask you the same 4 questions about any given map. Like Kessex Hills, prior to Tower of Nightmares. What is out there? Some Centaur camps, a Sylvari outposts and a few bandits. Nothing major, to be honest. Yet it is a full map with hearts, POI and vistas, as well as skill points.

The zone itself shows the centaur-bandit alliance, gives some details on the krait and hylek history, features Garrenhoff, and the PS steps that happen there give details of linking White Mantle to bandits, bandits to Caudecus, Arcane Eye lab in Garrenhoff, risen invasion into Kryta.

What is there for a purified Orr?

An empty wasteland full of lore. It’d be enjoyable for us, but for the majority of players?

For new players?

It’d be boring. Unless you bring something out of the blue, like Joko invading.

Is losing the old story, leaving players both returning and new lost on the plot – exactly what the temporary nature of Season 1 did – really worth seeing a purified Orr?

Not to me.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see Orr in all its glory, but a purified Orr isn’t that. It’s just a risen-less Orr. That’s all. Maybe some forestry, but not much. Most of the landscape’s appearance is due to it being underwater for 150 years.

Rhaegar.1203:

Maybe a Char faction (Blood) would want to resume the job they couldn’t complete 250+ years ago. Then, a few humans decide, well, that is just not cool, Orr was a HUMAN kingdom before the fall, let’s retake it now that it’s starting to heal. The 3 regions could then become a dynamic battle line, not unlike the one seen in the Factions campaign, back in GW1.

But, Sylvari could say, now, hold your horses, people. Someone from OUR race cleansed this land, we have a claim. And Asura can also waddle along and try to study the Artisan Waters and what not. BOOM, conflict right there.

Original? Maybe not. Rushed? Hellz yah, I thought it on 30 seconds. Then again, I don’t write/design games for a living, so perhaps the talented folks at Anet can do a far better job.

Charr never cared about Orr. Or Kryta. They only attacked Orr and Kryta because the Titans said to.

And Anet’s been pushing for cooperation between the races, so I doubt something like this would ever see the light of day when even the charr-human negotiation in Ascalon has been at a 2 year long standstill.

Doesn’t answer the main issue though.

Man, again, just because you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist (A reason to be in a risen-less Orr).

Rhaegar.1203:

Man, again, just because you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist (A reason to be in a risen-less Orr).

Maybe not, but if you propose taking most if not all the Risen out of Orr, some other challenge has to be put in its place. Would the temple mechanics still be in place? Would there be some new enemy attacks, like the gravelings in Ascalon Catacombs? And what exactly does “purifying Orr” mean anyway? These elements have to be answered before any change to the map could be made.

Personally, I prefer keeping Orr as it is until the maps expand outwards. Changing the maps isn’t about to make any more people play there unless it’s a radical change (which means lots of manpower and hours), and just throwing new loot opportunities would unbalance other elements. The map isn’t really broken, there’s just a slight disconnect between story and gamelay, and this would be overlooked if this were any other MMO. I think people are just expecting far too much here.

I said as much; to think that somebody would want just a recreational map with green trees and nothing but blue sky, is naive. Events, activities and challenges need to be developed.

Which calls for people, assets and resources that may not be readily available. I get that. I suppose I am just hopeful.

For me, seeing a “cleansed Orr”, only to have it cluttered with lots of new challenges and enemies; such as a new invading force or a conflict between the races – it would absolutely devastate me. Was all that fighting good for nothing?

I like new content as much as anyone, but I also want to believe that peace and harmony can be restored.

I wouldn’t want to see Orr revamped, but maybe – just maybe – we could see a minor story instance set place there in the future. Let’s say we return to Orr to find an old artifact, and we enter a small instance that shows us part of Arah, anno 1327AE.
That would, I think, satisfy a lot of those of us who wants to see what has happened to Orr – yet, not destroy any of the current gameplay.

Orr will continue to be a 1325AE time freeze, but yet: we could get to see a small glimpse of what we achieved by conquering Zhaitan.