Guild Wars 2

Have u guys seen the new trailer? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpeLj-fDK-4

A voice that seems to be Mordremoth itself says:
“I AM THIS WORLD.”
“YOU ARE PART OF ME.”
“IT’S TIME TO COME HOME.”

So, he seems to talk for himself, unlike Zaithan? Is he without form, just his heart (of thorns) being his “true physic self”? Are those phrases just the call to sylvaris or a call to all beings in Tyria (its time to come home)?

He managed to make whole race which can speak so he could easily mutate/evolve his own body to speak in tyrians languages or speak to salad race via mind translating his will to language that they know.
The one in trailer is imo his copy/avatar made for reasons or even his champion or he is one of those factories true indentifity that procude and recycle minions. That mordrem fabric could be lively and work as his avatar.
Plants are accross whole world and also life which I personaly connect very with him and as opposite to death which represent zhaitan. So I would say that it is to all beings in tyria.

The trailer did confuse me, as it left me wondering if Mordremoth has an actual body. It reminded me a lot of the Ultron movie, just going/becoming whatever he pleases. It leaves me wondering how the hell we’re actually supposed to suppress something like him. Also, him being a dragon of Mind and this being showcased with all the purple makes it even more difficult to fathom his demise.

Think this is the first time in the entire Guild Wars franchise where I’m left thinking that we have an unbeatable antagonist and that there is no kittening way we should be able to defeat something like that.

You will have to keep in mind all Elder Dragons have a God complex. While they don’t really say it out loud each Elder Dragon wish to take over the world and turn it into their ideal image such as Mordremoth seeking a world full of Nature and how Zhaitan seeked to create a world where nothing but death exists.

However, none of them were able to create their ideal world because they had a stalemate which forced them to exhaust all their energy fighting each other at the end of each cycle but of course the Pact has destroyed that stalemate.

Only question remains now is when will the Elder Dragons get off their butts and start their war with each other again which the Pact would not be prepared for since it is a organization made to only fight one Elder Dragon at a time.

Thz.7569:

Also, him being a dragon of Mind and this being showcased with all the purple makes it even more difficult to fathom his demise.
.

Yes, I’ve noticed the purple, even in HoT logo! Mind magic I would link it with Mesmer habilities.

It’s been stated elsewhere that only sylvari can hear him. So while he’s talking in the trailer, Rytlock and co probably just her “grrrrrrrrrrrroar!”. Any nearby sylvari would hear “Who dare opposes me?”

I don’t think that thing at the end was Mordremoth’s actual body, but more of a construct created to let him see and interact – kind of an advanced Eye of Zhaitan sort of thing. One of the complaints about Zhaitan was that he was always distant, and there was no “spokesperson” figure to act as an upfront threat. What we see at the end of the trailer is likely to be ArenaNet’s answer to that for Mordremoth.

As for his statements at the beginning…

As EdwinLi said, all Elder Dragons seem to have a ‘god complex’ of sorts. This isn’t even the first time we see it firsthand – that was Kralkatorrik, in how he wishes to have everything/make everything a part of him and destroy what he cannot.

From the risen, we got that Zhaitan focused on two things: 1) Ruling his own land and people as a ‘king’ of sorts (both in risen sayings and how he had risen function, there was a clear chain of command and more importantly clearly defined roles that we haven’t yet seen with any other dragons – roles that mimic a working civilization), 2) seeking and granting eternal life through undeath.

With Jormag, we’re seeing a case of creating a world (whether those in the world opposes him or not) based on the idea of “the survival of the fittest” while also being worshiped as a god or god-like being.

Mordremoth had been a big mystery – until now. Though we learned that Aerin preached about the world’s destruction… curious line now that we have Mordremoth’s saying “I am this world.” But if I had to guess at Mordremoth’s psyche based off of this, I’d argue that he seeks to become the sole source of life.

As for his second and third line – “You are a part of me.” and “It’s time to come home.” – this is very clearly his call to sylvari, IMO.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mordremoth had been a big mystery – until now. Though we learned that Aerin preached about the world’s destruction… curious line now that we have Mordremoth’s saying “I am this world.” But if I had to guess at Mordremoth’s psyche based off of this, I’d argue that he seeks to become the sole source of life.

I think the saying “I am this world” refers to how the world is full of Nature no matter where you go. Plants are a important part of the world that allows for the existance of life. Even in deserts there still places that sustain plant life which allow life to exist in the desert and with Mordy being a Nature dragon he may see himself as part of the Nature itself thus referring himself as part of what sustains life in the world of GW.

This would fit into what Mordy believes himself to be since the one thing that will always rule the world even after civilizations have fallen is Nature itself.

As the saying goes “Nature will always win in the end.”

EdwinLi.1284:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mordremoth had been a big mystery – until now. Though we learned that Aerin preached about the world’s destruction… curious line now that we have Mordremoth’s saying “I am this world.” But if I had to guess at Mordremoth’s psyche based off of this, I’d argue that he seeks to become the sole source of life.

I think the saying “I am this world” refers to how the world is full of Nature no matter where you go. Plants are a important part of the world that allows for the existance of life. Even in deserts there still places that sustain plant life which allow life to exist in the desert and with Mordy being a Nature dragon he may see himself as part of the Nature itself thus referring himself as part of what sustains life in the world of GW.

This would fit into what Mordy believes himself to be since the one thing that will always rule the world even after civilizations have fallen is Nature itself.

As the saying goes “Nature will always win in the end.”

And this goes with my post. Realistically, what can we do to him? I feel it’s extremely awkward that they’ve introduced a Sargeras type character so early. Flora/Earth and Mind, who else can compete with this enemy?

By all indication, even if he does have his own body, what stops him from moving on in another form? The only ambiguous hint is the heart, in Heart of Thorns. But still, this is too much and I don’t see anything else being even remotely on the same level.

In the livestream “Making of the Launch Trailer” they talked about how they created the “Vine-monster at the end of the trailer". They didn’t refer to it as Mordremoth. So it looks like Mordremoth used the environment to create an avatar to speak with Rytlock & the others.

My first impression after watching the trailer yesterday was that we’re dealing with Mordremoths true phyiscal form but now I prefer the fact that it was just an avatar.

Ah, that old theory…

Which falls apart once you move past Balthazar/Primordus and Melandru/Mordremoth.

I disagree about the physical similarities. Honestly that thing looked like a vine-based Shadow Behemoth.

If Elder Dragons are the “six human gods” than Malchor is the father of Zhaïtan :|

Thz.7569:

And this goes with my post. Realistically, what can we do to him? I feel it’s extremely awkward that they’ve introduced a Sargeras type character so early. Flora/Earth and Mind, who else can compete with this enemy?

By all indication, even if he does have his own body, what stops him from moving on in another form? The only ambiguous hint is the heart, in Heart of Thorns. But still, this is too much and I don’t see anything else being even remotely on the same level.

Well, it seems he has a core (like a seed?), and we’ve seen mordrem flee from Holy Fire in Season 2, and also, Glints EGG! I think the egg will be important to defeat the “core of thorns”, Mordremoth brain/heart.

to Straylight

When i saw the trailer i always thought that as an avatar due the way “he” can form and dissolve from vines. Maybe Mordremoth hasnt any face, just his core. It would be interesting, but maybe people would find boring to fight a cluster of trunks in final confront hehehe

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Ah, that old theory…

Which falls apart once you move past Balthazar/Primordus and Melandru/Mordremoth.

I disagree about the physical similarities. Honestly that thing looked like a vine-based Shadow Behemoth.

balthazar/primordius aspect of fire

lyssa/kralkatorrik aspect of purple chaos magic

grenth/zhaitan aspect of death

dwayna/jormag, this was the only difficult one to make an association, with ice and death clearly going to grenth. but then one may remember that grenth is the son of dwayna. The previous death god had no aspect of ice, so one can assume the ice part came from dwayna. She is also associated with snow.

melandru/mordremoth aspect of plants

kormir/bubbles aspect of water and secrets(and bubbles is definitely shrouded in secrecy)

I completely agree with you that the elder dragon =/= the gods. However don’t rush and say they clearly aren’t related.

Best cinematic they’ve ever done. It reminds me so much of this:

I love it’s voice. What you’re implying reminds me a lot of Dragon Age Inquisition’s, Descent DLC. I won’t ruin it for those that haven’t played by saying the outcome, but if you’re interested in such ideas I’d check out someone’s no commentary playthrough.

I’ve wondered the same thing by the way. I haven’t come to any conclusion yet.

Thz.7569:

And this goes with my post. Realistically, what can we do to him? I feel it’s extremely awkward that they’ve introduced a Sargeras type character so early. Flora/Earth and Mind, who else can compete with this enemy?

By all indication, even if he does have his own body, what stops him from moving on in another form? The only ambiguous hint is the heart, in Heart of Thorns. But still, this is too much and I don’t see anything else being even remotely on the same level.

I can see it us either doing a “head of the snake” approach or something like the end of the Tower of Nightmares. So we’re have to go search out his center/core (aka: his Heart of Thorns) to either destroy it, in a way that hopefully has nothing to do with lasers or cannon barrages, so he can’t spread or multiple further, or we’re going to have to inject it with some sort of horribly infectious anti-Elder Dragon poison or cleansing agent.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Ah, that old theory…

Which falls apart once you move past Balthazar/Primordus and Melandru/Mordremoth.

I disagree about the physical similarities. Honestly that thing looked like a vine-based Shadow Behemoth.

balthazar/primordius aspect of fire

lyssa/kralkatorrik aspect of purple chaos magic

grenth/zhaitan aspect of death

dwayna/jormag, this was the only difficult one to make an association, with ice and death clearly going to grenth. but then one may remember that grenth is the son of dwayna. The previous death god had no aspect of ice, so one can assume the ice part came from dwayna. She is also associated with snow.

melandru/mordremoth aspect of plants

kormir/bubbles aspect of water and secrets(and bubbles is definitely shrouded in secrecy)

I completely agree with you that the elder dragon =/= the gods. However don’t rush and say they clearly aren’t related.

Bruh this conversation has been going on within the forums for like 3 years now. There is no rushing.

Tupi.2967:

Well, it seems he has a core (like a seed?), and we’ve seen mordrem flee from Holy Fire in Season 2, and also, Glints EGG! I think the egg will be important to defeat the “core of thorns”, Mordremoth brain/heart.

I think the importance of the egg is less as a means of killing the Elder Dragons, and more an answer to the question of what to do after killing one (or all) of them. One of the themes of Season 2 has been to stress that the elder dragons have an important ecological role (stopping magic from becoming too powerful by absorbing it themselves) – while the dragons are dangerous, killing them without having a substitute repository of magic is even more so. The apparent aim is to replace the current Elder Dragons with new repositories of magic that are friendly enough to civilised races that they’ll maintain magic in more of a ‘steady state’ fashion rather than cycles of destructive consumption and hibernation.

I really love this trailer.
Mordremoth seems to be far cooler than Zaithan and I’m actually a bit hyped about playing a Sylvari in HoT, eventhough my fave races are Charr and Norn.
I hope they don’t forget the German synch when doing the Voice of Mordremoth in the beta there Beta I didn’t hear any talking, just the growling like the other races. :I
I’d suck to play in AE…I prefer the German Sychro for the most characters.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Ah, that old theory…

Which falls apart once you move past Balthazar/Primordus and Melandru/Mordremoth.

I disagree about the physical similarities. Honestly that thing looked like a vine-based Shadow Behemoth.

balthazar/primordius aspect of fire

lyssa/kralkatorrik aspect of purple chaos magic

grenth/zhaitan aspect of death

dwayna/jormag, this was the only difficult one to make an association, with ice and death clearly going to grenth. but then one may remember that grenth is the son of dwayna. The previous death god had no aspect of ice, so one can assume the ice part came from dwayna. She is also associated with snow.

melandru/mordremoth aspect of plants

kormir/bubbles aspect of water and secrets(and bubbles is definitely shrouded in secrecy)

I completely agree with you that the elder dragon =/= the gods. However don’t rush and say they clearly aren’t related.

Well i’d hardly call it rushed when it’s been something discussed more than plenty over the last 3 years

Also there are some faults in your comparisons, Kormir is not the goddess of water and secrets but of order and truth. Water is an aspect of Lyssa, who’s goddess of beauty, illusion and water. Dwayna has nothing to do with ice and simply because she was the mother of grenth, who did become a god of ice, does not mean she had to have command over that aspect as well. There is also nothing that states she is goddess of snow, which if i’m mistaken you are free to correct me as to where they state her to be.
Lyssa and kralkatorrik share nothing more than the color the share. What we know of kralkatorrik is that he can create crystals and corrupt living beings with these and that he moves like a lightning storm/sandstorm and has golden breath. None of which are related to lyssa. So we have;

Bathazar and Primordus, who share the fire theme
Grenth and Zhaiten, who share the death theme but not the ice theme
And Melandru and Mordremoth, who share the nature theme but not the mind theme.

These 3 can be loosely connected, the other 3 however, cannot.

Kralkatorrik and Lyssa, no connection beyond the color purple. Lyssa being the goddess of water, illusion and beauty and kralky having lightning, crystals and “golden” breath
Jormag and Dwayna, not a single connection, one is ice, the other is life and air.
And ofc, Bubbles and kormir, no connections, we know very little about bubbles other than being a water dragon, kormir has no connection to water.

Thz.7569:

The trailer did confuse me, as it left me wondering if Mordremoth has an actual body. It reminded me a lot of the Ultron movie, just going/becoming whatever he pleases. It leaves me wondering how the hell we’re actually supposed to suppress something like him. Also, him being a dragon of Mind and this being showcased with all the purple makes it even more difficult to fathom his demise.

Think this is the first time in the entire Guild Wars franchise where I’m left thinking that we have an unbeatable antagonist and that there is no kittening way we should be able to defeat something like that.

It’s possible that all the Elder Dragons are like that. Zhaitan could simply have been a mind / will inhabiting a body made of a conglomeration of dragon corpses. Jormag might simply compose his body from ice and Primordius from rocks and lava.
Although I think Kralky might not fit too well (depending on how they described him in the book which I haven’t read).

Thz.7569:

And this goes with my post. Realistically, what can we do to him? I feel it’s extremely awkward that they’ve introduced a Sargeras type character so early. Flora/Earth and Mind, who else can compete with this enemy?

By all indication, even if he does have his own body, what stops him from moving on in another form? The only ambiguous hint is the heart, in Heart of Thorns. But still, this is too much and I don’t see anything else being even remotely on the same level.

Sargeras is probably a bad comparison since Sargeras is very much a single individual, just a very powerful one. Now possibly his soul might be tied to the Twisted Nether allowing him to resurrect but all that means is you just have to kill him in the the Twisted Nether.
I’d rather draw a comparison with the Old Gods. Now it’s debatable if any of the Old Gods have been killed, but it seems that all that player did was manage to beat back and destroy their physical manifestation (C’thun was supposedly killed but then Cho’gall could just bring him back with a spell so he wasn’t really all that gone).
So in that case, all we need to do is hit Mordy so hard that it takes him centuries to reform / regain power.
Or maybe he has a physical body somewhere and we just need to kill that.

Daniel Handler.4816:

balthazar/primordius aspect of fire

lyssa/kralkatorrik aspect of purple chaos magic

grenth/zhaitan aspect of death

dwayna/jormag, this was the only difficult one to make an association, with ice and death clearly going to grenth. but then one may remember that grenth is the son of dwayna. The previous death god had no aspect of ice, so one can assume the ice part came from dwayna. She is also associated with snow.

melandru/mordremoth aspect of plants

kormir/bubbles aspect of water and secrets(and bubbles is definitely shrouded in secrecy)

I completely agree with you that the elder dragon =/= the gods. However don’t rush and say they clearly aren’t related.

1. Kralkatorrik has no relation to chaos. Three dragons have thus far related to purple (Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, Mordremoth). Aside from color, there’s no relation between Kralkatorrik and Lyssa. And before release, Jeff Grubb was asked if there’s a relation between Kralkatorrik and Abaddon due to the color purple – Grubb responded with “purple is the color of evil in Guild Wars”. So that connection is false.
2. There’s nothing about air or life in Jormag, and nothing about ice/snow in Dwayna. Only god related to ice/snow is Grenth – but wait, you have him tied to Zhaitan, the dragon of death and shadow!
3. Kormir has no relation to water, Lyssa took that over, and the DSD has no relation to knowledge.

And then you forget about Dhuum, Abaddon, and Abaddon’s predecessor. If the “dragons = gods” then there should not be six Elder Dragons, but 9!

You could try to argue that Dwayna=Zhaitan, Grenth=Jormag, but wait! Dhuum had no connection to ice. Ice is personal to Grenth, just as water changed between the gods.

You can try to relate Lyssa to DSD via water, but if we go back 250 years that relation has to change into Abaddon to DSD. So then where does Lyssa lie? Kralkatorrik is crystal – and potentially sky.

If you take that potentially sky to link Kralkatorrik and Dwayna, then once more we have Grenth with two dragons, Lyssa with none.

One could argue that Jormag’s second, unconfirmed, aspect is spirit – which then can make it possible to link to Kormir, Goddess of Knowledge, Order, and Spirit. However, Abaddon had no aspect of spirit.

When you look at the gods, the only aspect to remain between generations seems to be the primary aspect of their godhood: Life, War, Death, Nature, Illusion, and Knowledge.

There is no dragon of life. There is no dragon of war. There is no dragon of illusion. There is no dragon of knowledge.

If you scratch the surface, not caring about the fact that the gods have had generations and in these generations what they are god of changes (except for one aspect), and go with arbitrary and stretching things like “dwayna=air, jormag=cold wind” (which isn’t true) or “lyssa+kralkatorrik=the color purple” (so is Abaddon, Mordremoth, and Zhaitan), then yeah you can make an argument that seems like they’re related.

But once you take into the fact that aspects changed for the gods while they didn’t for the dragons, or that color doesn’t matter for kitten, you end up with a big mess.

This is such an overdone argument that it even got referenced ingame, and debunked:

A scholarly argument for the symmetry between Elder Dragons and the human gods. Unfortunately, by the end, it is clear that no proof exists to support this theory.

CureForLiving.5360:

It’s possible that all the Elder Dragons are like that. Zhaitan could simply have been a mind / will inhabiting a body made of a conglomeration of dragon corpses. Jormag might simply compose his body from ice and Primordius from rocks and lava.
Although I think Kralky might not fit too well (depending on how they described him in the book which I haven’t read).

Kralkatorrik bleeds, but his blood crystallizes and he can turn his body into a literal sandstorm.

And given we see Primordus in the flesh, while coated with stone we see his very fleshy eye open at the end of Eye of the North. We also see Jormag’s tooth, which is far from ice though perpetually colder than its surroundings given the mist that comes off of it (like dry ice).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

balthazar/primordius aspect of fire

lyssa/kralkatorrik aspect of purple chaos magic

grenth/zhaitan aspect of death

dwayna/jormag, this was the only difficult one to make an association, with ice and death clearly going to grenth. but then one may remember that grenth is the son of dwayna. The previous death god had no aspect of ice, so one can assume the ice part came from dwayna. She is also associated with snow.

melandru/mordremoth aspect of plants

kormir/bubbles aspect of water and secrets(and bubbles is definitely shrouded in secrecy)

I completely agree with you that the elder dragon =/= the gods. However don’t rush and say they clearly aren’t related.

1. Kralkatorrik has no relation to chaos. Three dragons have thus far related to purple (Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, Mordremoth). Aside from color, there’s no relation between Kralkatorrik and Lyssa. And before release, Jeff Grubb was asked if there’s a relation between Kralkatorrik and Abaddon due to the color purple – Grubb responded with “purple is the color of evil in Guild Wars”. So that connection is false.
2. There’s nothing about air or life in Jormag, and nothing about ice/snow in Dwayna. Only god related to ice/snow is Grenth – but wait, you have him tied to Zhaitan, the dragon of death and shadow!
3. Kormir has no relation to water, Lyssa took that over, and the DSD has no relation to knowledge.

And then you forget about Dhuum, Abaddon, and Abaddon’s predecessor. If the “dragons = gods” then there should not be six Elder Dragons, but 9!

You could try to argue that Dwayna=Zhaitan, Grenth=Jormag, but wait! Dhuum had no connection to ice. Ice is personal to Grenth, just as water changed between the gods.

You can try to relate Lyssa to DSD via water, but if we go back 250 years that relation has to change into Abaddon to DSD. So then where does Lyssa lie? Kralkatorrik is crystal – and potentially sky.

If you take that potentially sky to link Kralkatorrik and Dwayna, then once more we have Grenth with two dragons, Lyssa with none.

One could argue that Jormag’s second, unconfirmed, aspect is spirit – which then can make it possible to link to Kormir, Goddess of Knowledge, Order, and Spirit. However, Abaddon had no aspect of spirit.

When you look at the gods, the only aspect to remain between generations seems to be the primary aspect of their godhood: Life, War, Death, Nature, Illusion, and Knowledge.

There is no dragon of life. There is no dragon of war. There is no dragon of illusion. There is no dragon of knowledge.

If you scratch the surface, not caring about the fact that the gods have had generations and in these generations what they are god of changes (except for one aspect), and go with arbitrary and stretching things like “dwayna=air, jormag=cold wind” (which isn’t true) or “lyssa+kralkatorrik=the color purple” (so is Abaddon, Mordremoth, and Zhaitan), then yeah you can make an argument that seems like they’re related.

But once you take into the fact that aspects changed for the gods while they didn’t for the dragons, or that color doesn’t matter for kitten, you end up with a big mess.

This is such an overdone argument that it even got referenced ingame, and debunked:

A scholarly argument for the symmetry between Elder Dragons and the human gods. Unfortunately, by the end, it is clear that no proof exists to support this theory.

CureForLiving.5360:

It’s possible that all the Elder Dragons are like that. Zhaitan could simply have been a mind / will inhabiting a body made of a conglomeration of dragon corpses. Jormag might simply compose his body from ice and Primordius from rocks and lava.
Although I think Kralky might not fit too well (depending on how they described him in the book which I haven’t read).

Kralkatorrik bleeds, but his blood crystallizes and he can turn his body into a literal sandstorm.

And given we see Primordus in the flesh, while coated with stone we see his very fleshy eye open at the end of Eye of the North. We also see Jormag’s tooth, which is far from ice though perpetually colder than its surroundings given the mist that comes off of it (like dry ice).

Kralkatorrik create brandstorms which have been described as chaos storms.

Taking your generation idea. At some point it is possible you had.
Dhuum for death-zhaitan
Lyssa for chaos magic-kralkatorrik
Dwayna for ice-jormag
Balthazar for fire-primordius
Melandru for nature-mordremoth
Abbadon/or his predecessor for water-bubbles

We know of no gods before these. It is an old an tiring debate. But the possibility still arises that he originals each held an aspect of one of the elder dragons. Either way lets focus on the now.

When one watches the trailer it shows the creation of a one of the minions. Are these the same minions who are corrupted sylvari?

And does mordremoth actually have a physical body? I am aware the other dragons are flesh and blood. But perhaps his “body” is reduced in tangible size. After all it is called the “heart” of thorns.

if the game itself has basically told people that there is absolutely no connection what else will it take to get this arguement to stop, its been 3 years and no sufficient evidence to support anything more than 6 gods 6 dragons, its getting ridiculous now

Daniel Handler.4816:

Kralkatorrik create brandstorms which have been described as chaos storms.

Eh… no they aren’t.

The ONLY relation there is between Kralkatorrik and chaos magic is that the Noxious Branded Plants in Lowland Burn create a half-chaos storm effect, in that it applies random conditions (seemingly) to those near it.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Taking your generation idea. At some point it is possible you had.
Dhuum for death-zhaitan
Lyssa for chaos magic-kralkatorrik
Dwayna for ice-jormag
Balthazar for fire-primordius
Melandru for nature-mordremoth
Abbadon/or his predecessor for water-bubbles

Except that Dwayna is still not ice, and Kralkatorrik is still not chaos. And that ignores Kormir, who has zero relation to any of the dragons.

You can’t just take a piece of the information and point “this is it!” unless you’re a lawyer trying to argue a guilty man’s innocence because once the rest of the information is brought out, you’re screwed and your argument falls to pieces.

Daniel Handler.4816:

But the possibility still arises that he originals each held an aspect of one of the elder dragons.

The game already debunked the theory – as I pointed out in my post, if you even bothered to read it beyond the generations part.

Daniel Handler.4816:

When one watches the trailer it shows the creation of a one of the minions. Are these the same minions who are corrupted sylvari?

That does appear to be a Mordrem Guard.

Daniel Handler.4816:

And does mordremoth actually have a physical body? I am aware the other dragons are flesh and blood. But perhaps his “body” is reduced in tangible size. After all it is called the “heart” of thorns.

Given we don’t even see Mordremoth in the trailer, he likely will have a body.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Kralkatorrik create brandstorms which have been described as chaos storms.

Eh… no they aren’t.

The ONLY relation there is between Kralkatorrik and chaos magic is that the Noxious Branded Plants in Lowland Burn create a half-chaos storm effect, in that it applies random conditions (seemingly) to those near it.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Taking your generation idea. At some point it is possible you had.
Dhuum for death-zhaitan
Lyssa for chaos magic-kralkatorrik
Dwayna for ice-jormag
Balthazar for fire-primordius
Melandru for nature-mordremoth
Abbadon/or his predecessor for water-bubbles

Except that Dwayna is still not ice, and Kralkatorrik is still not chaos. And that ignores Kormir, who has zero relation to any of the dragons.

You can’t just take a piece of the information and point “this is it!” unless you’re a lawyer trying to argue a guilty man’s innocence because once the rest of the information is brought out, you’re screwed and your argument falls to pieces.

Daniel Handler.4816:

But the possibility still arises that he originals each held an aspect of one of the elder dragons.

The game already debunked the theory – as I pointed out in my post, if you even bothered to read it beyond the generations part.

Daniel Handler.4816:

When one watches the trailer it shows the creation of a one of the minions. Are these the same minions who are corrupted sylvari?

That does appear to be a Mordrem Guard.

Daniel Handler.4816:

And does mordremoth actually have a physical body? I am aware the other dragons are flesh and blood. But perhaps his “body” is reduced in tangible size. After all it is called the “heart” of thorns.

Given we don’t even see Mordremoth in the trailer, he likely will have a body.

The point is that we don’t know the aspects as they were. And that it’s more than possible at some time the aspects aligned. Also you will get better results if you use the word chaotic.

We know the gods’ aspects as they were. We know the dragons’ aspects (or at least half of the two). Yet they don’t align.

Still doesn’t change the fact that ArenaNet placed an object in game debunking this. As has been said many times already.

And I didn’t get better results at all. Still shows up nothing.

Why don’t you provide a source for this, since clearly the wiki – and all my research into it – results nothing.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Branded

“They are also drawn by the energies which the chaotic storms of the Dragonbrand, dubbed Brandstorms, exude”

You don’t know the gods aspects as they were in the very beginning because nothing in the game tells you. You only see the aspects as they built Orr. It is entirely possible that before Grenth was born, Dwayna held the aspect of ice. If the aspect of water moved, I see no reason why it couldn’t have happened then. Nor do you know how many times aspects have shifted before Orr. And if it becomes too much of an issue then just give Grenth to Jormag (ice), and Dwayna to Zhaitan (rebirth/undeath, basically raising the dead)

In character researchers are not infallible. @see thaumanova reactor. Its not like I believe this theory. But the possibility still remains. See how blindsided people were by Sylvari being minions.

I wonder, would it work for the final parts of the story of the fight against Mordremoth to require Sylvari to do something? I mean, have an area of the fight that only sylvari PCs can enter/do, as a way to simulate the sylvari redeeming themselves in the eyes of the world by forming their own army against their father.

It’s a nebulous idea on my part, subject to a lot of gameplay issues and cries of favoritism, but it seems to me that if the sylvari are about to become the despised race of Tyria in the lore, they should have a chance to overcome that at the end. By more than just one or two being heroes and suddenly everyone goes “hey that whole race is actually cool,” I mean.

Daniel Handler.4816:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Branded

“They are also drawn by the energies which the chaotic storms of the Dragonbrand, dubbed Brandstorms, exude”

I’d imagine they’re talking about the storms with the purple lightning that span across the Brand in that statement and not the tiny effect that some Branded plants put off sporadically when damaged. And the storms are chaotic in nature in how they move and form and not because they are actual “chaos” storms.

You don’t know the gods aspects as they were in the very beginning because nothing in the game tells you. You only see the aspects as they built Orr. It is entirely possible that before Grenth was born, Dwayna held the aspect of ice. If the aspect of water moved, I see no reason why it couldn’t have happened then. Nor do you know how many times aspects have shifted before Orr. And if it becomes too much of an issue then just give Grenth to Jormag (ice), and Dwayna to Zhaitan (rebirth/undeath, basically raising the dead)

In character researchers are not infallible. @see thaumanova reactor. Its not like I believe this theory. But the possibility still remains. See how blindsided people were by Sylvari being minions.

True, but unless it’s told or implied to us in some way, we can’t assume it did happen to just fit a theory. If we did that, we’d spend the whole day playing the “what if” game because we haven’t been told it didn’t happen.

Elder Dragons and the Six Gods are not related at all. That theory has been debunked and bludgeoned to death long ago, after years of discussion.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Elder Dragons and the Six Gods are not related at all. That theory has been debunked and bludgeoned to death long ago, after years of discussion.

Then to avoid making the discussion stale, lets return to the topic of Mordremoth. Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Primordius are all awake. They have all been consuming magic for some time now. Why does it seem like Mordremoth is so much stronger, even at a just waking stage?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Elder Dragons and the Six Gods are not related at all. That theory has been debunked and bludgeoned to death long ago, after years of discussion.

Then to avoid making the discussion stale, lets return to the topic of Mordremoth. Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Primordius are all awake. They have all been consuming magic for some time now. Why does it seem like Mordremoth is so much stronger, even at a just waking stage?

some speculate that he he extremely powerful from when scarlet dug into that leyline. people speculate that it gave him a massive surge of magic and increased his power.
my theory is that he isnt more powerful than zhiatian i just think he’s smarter. instead of using brute force and huge numbers he smart about what he does. like having a dragon champion attack the grove to weaken it

Daniel Handler.4816:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Branded

“They are also drawn by the energies which the chaotic storms of the Dragonbrand, dubbed Brandstorms, exude”

That’s community wording. Take it from an actual source or take it only with a grain of salt.

That line actually reads, to me, as meaning erratic, unpredictable – which I believe is said by the NPCs. Being erratic does not make Kralkatorrik’s core concept “chaos”.

Daniel Handler.4816:

You don’t know the gods aspects as they were in the very beginning because nothing in the game tells you. You only see the aspects as they built Orr. It is entirely possible that before Grenth was born, Dwayna held the aspect of ice. If the aspect of water moved, I see no reason why it couldn’t have happened then. Nor do you know how many times aspects have shifted before Orr. And if it becomes too much of an issue then just give Grenth to Jormag (ice), and Dwayna to Zhaitan (rebirth/undeath, basically raising the dead)

We actually do have lore of Dwayna pre-Grenth, and nothing about her changed with Grenth’s rise.

But why would the gods be related to the Elder Dragons in any form? When the gods 1) are not native to the world while the dragons are, and 2) came to the world already as gods?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Then to avoid making the discussion stale, lets return to the topic of Mordremoth. Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Primordius are all awake. They have all been consuming magic for some time now. Why does it seem like Mordremoth is so much stronger, even at a just waking stage?

Every dragon wakes with a big bang, so to speak. Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik all did – Primordus probably did but he was too far underground to feel it; same with the DSD except too far away underwater.

Furthermore, Mordremoth got fed a mouthfood of breakfast-in-bed ley line magic. The only other dragon to get something close wsa Zhaitan, who had a kingdom of corpses and magical artifacts (which he was still corrupting 100 years later).

Finally, Mordremoth has a unique attribute in that he can tunnel his minions underground – unnoticed by the majority of the world and races, but not so far underground as to affect/encounter destroyers. So mordrem can literally appear right behind all your defenses, because you didn’t dig deep enough – while the other dragons couldn’t do this (sans Primordus, but again, too far from surface and had a full race of stone dwarfs to counter him).

Daniel Handler.4816:

Then to avoid making the discussion stale, lets return to the topic of Mordremoth. Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Primordius are all awake. They have all been consuming magic for some time now. Why does it seem like Mordremoth is so much stronger, even at a just waking stage?

Modremoth isn’t necessarily stronger, just backed into a corner.

We aren’t actively going after the other dragons yet. Jormag only has the norn to deal with and the Sons of Svanir seem sufficient to keep the norn at bay. Kraalkatorrik’s Brand is enough to keep the Iron legion busy with the addition of ghosts and the Flame Legion. Plus we don’t know exactly where he is anymore. Primordus and Bubbles are both inaccessible to us at this time.

With Modremoth however we knew exactly where he was and wanted to go after him before he had a chance to entrench himself the way Zhaitan did. Modremoth is likely aware we killed Zhaitan and knows what we’re capable of. So unlike Zhaitan who didn’t consider us enough of a threat to go all out on right out the gate, Modremoth came at us with everything he had.

Like Kraalkatorrik he went after his former champion right off the bat by attacking the Pale Tree. He then started systematically destroying our fortresses and attacking our waypoints and did a lot of damage very quickly.

He knew we’d go for an aerial attack, possibly info taken from Scarlet or Aerin, and so set up an anti-air defense. We flew right into his trap and now a chunk of the PACT fleet, if not the entire PACT fleet, is destroyed. Modremoth managed to neutralize the main force that brought down Zhaitan by learning from Zhaitan’s mistakes.

So basically we’re not necessarily facing a dragon that is stronger than the rest. We’re facing a dragon that is taking us seriously and not pulling his punches.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Elder Dragons and the Six Gods are not related at all. That theory has been debunked and bludgeoned to death long ago, after years of discussion.

Then to avoid making the discussion stale, lets return to the topic of Mordremoth. Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Primordius are all awake. They have all been consuming magic for some time now. Why does it seem like Mordremoth is so much stronger, even at a just waking stage?

To add to what Konig said: I believe it was once stated that everytime an Elder Dragon falls it releases a massive amount of ambient magic into the world, which in turn empowers the other elder dragons. If that’s true then the less elder dragons there are, the stronger they get.

If such a thing was stated, it was a relatively-obscure interview or players stating it. Certainly such has never been said in-game nor in any interview I know of, and I’ve been collecting interviews to create a cache of them.

We know that when the Elder Dragons fall asleep they release their magic – but this is a slow process, and wouldn’t strengthen other dragons outright as they’d all fall asleep around the same time (give or take a few centuries). We don’t know what lesser dragons can consume magic besides dragon champions like Glint, etc. But we know that when a dragon champion die they also leak magic out – again, slowly.

How did kralkatorrik know where Glint was when he awoke? Does this mean by extension mordremoth can sense where the sylvari are? Wouldn’t that make working with sylvari in the pact even more dangerous?

In theory, yes.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If such a thing was stated, it was a relatively-obscure interview or players stating it. Certainly such has never been said in-game nor in any interview I know of, and I’ve been collecting interviews to create a cache of them.

Then I take it back, my bad.

Daniel Handler.4816:

How did kralkatorrik know where Glint was when he awoke? Does this mean by extension mordremoth can sense where the sylvari are? Wouldn’t that make working with sylvari in the pact even more dangerous?

Elder Dragons are psychically connected to their minions. Now we don’t know if or how sylvari were cleansed, but if we assume there is similarity there (with glint) and we know that Mordremoth is still connected to his all Sylvari (i.e. even free sylvari can hear his voice), then it could stand to reason that Kralky and Glint was still connected in some way.
But then again we are assuming a lot, firstly that sylvari and glint were cleansed in a similar way (or at least that it functions similarly) and that glint and sylvari are biologically / magically / functionality similar by merit of them both being minions.

Mordremoth is a good example of an unreliable narrator, as are all dragons. Don’t believe him.

Tupi.2967:

Thz.7569:

Also, him being a dragon of Mind and this being showcased with all the purple makes it even more difficult to fathom his demise.
.

Yes, I’ve noticed the purple, even in HoT logo! Mind magic I would link it with Mesmer habilities.

I’m going with purple in the logo because Mordy secured Glint’s egg (purple is the crystal/branded color) and used it to fashion that thing at the end of the trailer. Dragon babies grow up so quickly.

Glint was never linked to purple, but blue.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Glint was never linked to purple, but blue.

Um, the Branded disagree.

Nike.2631:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Glint was never linked to purple, but blue.

Um, the Branded disagree.

glint =/= kralkatorrik.

Kralkatorrik is the one creating the branded, not glint.

and this image does show her as a blue toned dragon http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Glint_screenshot.jpg

and possibly less important but still something, concept art where she’s shown in blue on here; http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glint but it’s concept art after all so ye

I propose that purple is the color of crystal dragon manifestations in their natural state… something which Mordremoth’s influence would likely return Glint’s egg to… before incorporating it into a new commander-husk.

We already see purple in Mordremoth’s vines, however, and have since Episode 1 of Season 2. Just go underneath the entrance to Dry Top – or look at the vines in Brisban Wildlands and you’ll see. Even Mawdrey is purple from the get-go.

We also see purple in Desmina’s Hollows and Arah. Zhaitan’s corruption also results in purple.

There’s even purple at the highest concentration of Jormag’s corruption (such as Drakkar Spurs) – though for this to be seen you need the highest post-processing up.

As I mentioned near the beignning of this thread, Jeff Grubb once stated in an interview in response to a question asking about a link between Kralkatorrik and Abaddon due to the shared color purple that in Guild Wars the color “purple” is generally used to symbolize evil. Every dragon we see very high concentrations of corruption from has purple glows, just like how Abaddon and his Margonites glowed purple.

Purple is the color of Elder Dragons it would seem.

Scarlet made it clear that Elder Dragon Magic can easily be mistaken for Chaos Magic(at least by the Inquest) which is the Magic that Lyssa and Mesmers use so it’s not surprising that the Elder Dragons’ Magics all look Purple.

Why do Abaddon’s Margonites look purple? Considering how Lyssa got the Goddesses of Water position from him it wouldn’t surprise me if he had infused Chaos Magic into his Margonites.

Arenanet whether deliberately or by accident managed to create Lore reasons for The Margonites, the Chaos Rifts, the Elder Dragons and Lyssa to all have Purple Magic.

Funny how Primordus is the only Elder Dragon to not show Purple Magics at any time as far as I’m aware of. Of course we’ll probably see Purple lava as soon as he becomes a Major focus.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Scarlet made it clear that Elder Dragon Magic can easily be mistaken for Chaos Magic (at least by the Inquest)

I don’t think she’s telling the full truth. When you get to a high enough fractal that you have access to the dorms, saving and following the two generic Inquest NPCs get them talking about how Scarlet coerced the project lead into adding dragon energies into the mix to “see how far they can go”.

Don’t think this has been documented on the wiki yet, though.