Guild Wars 2

The question is repeatedly asked: Can sylvari be corrupted? Traditionally, although prominent theory-crafters have proposed that Nightmare sylvari may be influenced by an Elder Dragon, anyone suggesting otherwise has been directed to posts attempting to present evidence debunking the theory that sylvari of the Pale Tree can be corrupted by Elder Dragon magic. The argument against the possibility that sylvari of the Pale Tree can be corrupted is difficult to articulate, but relies almost exclusively on evidence presented out-of-game by development – specifically, the stipulation that the sylvari of the Pale Tree cannot be corrupted by Elder Dragons. But Ceara’s enigmatic demise into lunacy has intensified speculation that maybe, just maybe, we have witnessed the first in-game example of a sylvari born of the Pale Tree corrupted by an Elder Dragon – Mordremoth. This post is an invitation to every peruser of the forums to consider some real problems that Ceara poses to both the traditional theory that sylvari born of the Pale Tree cannot be corrupted by Elder Dragon magic, the theory that Ceara has been corrupted by Elder Dragon magic and also the hurdles placed in the path of development’s attempts to explain the mysterious origins of the Pale Tree’s resistance to Elder Dragon corruption.

A Seemingly Insurmountable Hurdle For Theorycrafters
In order to try and explain how Ceara became corrupted by Mordremoth, let us try to form a theory. Prior to the sacking of Lion’s Arch, a sylvari traveler loitering near the asura gate leading to the Grove commented to an asura that she had misgivings about traveling through the gate network because, in doing so, she would temporarily be disconnected from the Dream. What this NPC’s dialogue suggests is that it is possible for a sylvari’s connection to the Dream to be disrupted. In this case, through physical displacement. Ceara, of course, was not physically displaced during Omadd’s experiment. Ergo, this was not how she was disconnected from the Dream. Perhaps Omadd’s isolation module acted like the lead lining of a radioactive waste bin instead – that is to say, it severed the link between Ceara and the Dream. This is a great idea, but it is fundamentally flawed: It was during her out-of-body experience inside the module that Ceara conversed with the Pale Tree. Thus, this cannot be the case either. To make matters worse, Ceara did not remain in the module. Like the sylvari traveler who only experienced a disconnection from the Dream whilst traveling through the asura gate network, Ceara would only have experienced disconnection from the Dream whilst inside Omadd’s device. Having left it, she would reconnect. The only acceptable answer at which we can arrive is that Ceara chose to leave the Dream.

A Pre-established Model
The problem with this conclusion is that it implies that Ceara’s disconnection from the Dream involved no more than the practice of a form of meditation already adopted by the Soundless. Ergo, it is difficult to understand why Ceara was not able to enter her ecstatic state prior to participating in Omadd’s experiment. Why not just travel to the Weeping Isle to learn from the Soundless? Conversely, why aren’t the Soundless able to enter a similar ecstatic state to that which Ceara experienced, with similar consequences – i.e. becoming corrupted by an Elder Dragon? For both the Soundless and Ceara look inward for answers. Perhaps the answer to this question lies in the freedom of choice of the individual: If a sylvari chooses to disconnect from the Dream, this does not pose the same kind of danger as inadvertently disconnecting. However, this attempt at an answer does nothing to clarify an already confusing situation. Regardless of whether an individual willingly chooses to disconnect or not, the same risks must be managed. After all, we’re not just dealing with a disconnected sylvari, but an Elder Dragon.

A Battle Of Wills
This is probably the only point at which any insight can be gleaned about how the Dream may affect sylvari connected to it. Consider that the process through which an Elder Dragon corrupts a victim involves a contest of wills. The stronger the will of an individual, the harder it is for an Elder Dragon to corrupt them – the process of corruption may still be inevitable, of course, but the turning of the individual takes much longer. Now imagine the immense inner-strength of the Pale Tree, combined with the individual strengths of her children. Collectively, they form one will, one purpose, one vision, through which they can successfully resist the corruptive might of an Elder Dragon. This unity of identity is what renders sylvari connected to the Dream immunity to Elder Dragonic corruption.

Is Ceara The First Sylvari To Be Corrupted By An Elder Dragon?
This is a controversial question to ask; proposed answers always draw criticism. The primary reason why I ask this question, however, is because there is no demonstrable defining feature of Omadd’s machine that would render sylvari vulnerable to the corruptive powers of Elder Dragons. It is difficult even for development to offer the lore community logically robust reasoning detailing how Ceara might have succumbed. For Vorpp speculates that Omadd neither added nor removed anything to or from his machine in the course of conducting his experiment, save for Ceara. Moreover, it is not as though Ceara is the first to be confined to an isolation chamber. Granted, she entered her isolation willingly; other sylvari are forcibly isolated. Indeed, this practice is frequently selected by the Nightmare Court to turn sylvari from the light-side to the dark-side of the Dream. Regular participants in dungeon-runs through Twilight Arbor will be familiar with the bulbous prisons of the Nightmare Court, which form the biological equivalent of Omadd’s mechanical chamber. Parties often open them one-by-one, to avoid being overwhelmed. But it is worth noting that opening bulbous prisons doesn’t always reap reward: More often than not the prisoner has been turned and, interestingly enough, embarks on a murderous rampage not unlike that of Ceara herself when she emerged from isolation, killing Omadd. Given this, it could be argued that Omadd inadvertently rediscovered a long-standing method of corrupting sylvari, with fatal consequences.

Having noted that it is nigh-on-impossible to distinguish the isolation method of Omadd from that of the Nightmare Court, we can begin to understand why many lore enthusiasts speculate that Nightmare Court sylvari are corrupted by an Elder Dragon. But if this is the case, we need to clarify this position for the sake of those considering the feasibility of this possibility. It seems reasonable to conclude that not every member of the Nightmare Court is as heavily invested in Nightmare as others. There are degrees of corruption. Furthermore, we should not pretend that Nightmare Courtiers alone are the evil-doers in sylvari society. The Grove’s prison houses not only Nightmare Courtiers, but also Soundless who commit crimes. Arguably, even Caithe is a criminal – a sylvari who appears to be aligned to the light-side of the Dream and shares a close relationship with the Pale Tree. Consequently, whilst some within the Nightmare Court may be corrupted by an Elder Dragon in the same way that Ceara was, many more are not.

Further Indications That Soundlessness Leads To Nightmare
The Soundless have been marketed by some as quintessential pacifists. But as the testimony of the jailers of the Grove’s prison demonstrates, this isn’t true of all of them: Some are criminals. More importantly, the Soundless have never enjoyed true freedom from any part of the Dream. Naulshead Refuge, their first settlement, was assaulted and overrun by the Thorn Vine. Visiting the deserted sanctuary you can view the vine’s growth first-hand. Even now, having relocated to the Weeping Isle, the Soundless continue to be harassed by the Nightmare Court, who regularly make prisoners of them. The point is that the dark-side of the Dream – Nightmare – shows an interest in the Soundless that is not shared by the light-side of the Dream. Whereas the Pale Tree, acting on behalf of the Dream’s light-side, more often than not leaves the Soundless in peace, the Thorn Vine, representing the dark-side of the Dream, never stops hounding them to join it’s cause.

Further Argument That Ceara May Have Been Disconnected From The Light Side Of The Dream But Not The Dream Proper
In her journal, Ceara relates that she experienced nightmares for many nights after participating in Omadd’s experiment. Furthermore, she details that an entity would call to her during them. That she perceived them at night is intriguing, since one’s disconnection from the Dream is measured by the Soundless as the degree to which one experience’s one’s own dreams whilst sleeping. But Ceara didn’t experience her own dreams – they recurred and always involved the same entity; during these nightmares she would attempt to escape them to no avail. This suggests that rather than being disconnected from the Dream she was in fact connected to it – just not to it’s light-side.

On an intuitive level, it makes sense to suggest that Dream sylvari – whether Nightmare Courtiers or otherwise – are more likely to perceive their connection to the Dream at night. Why? Not only is the sylvari experience of Dream the strongest during their awakening – that is to say, whilst they are asleep within pods of the Pale Tree – the signals generated by the physical senses are no longer distracting sylvari from the signals generated by the Dream. In other words, whereas in one’s waking hours the signals generated by the Dream are perceived as no more than a subtle buzz, during one’s sleep the Dream’s signals seem amplified and dominate the substance of one’s slumber. This is another reason why any attempts by either lore enthusiasts or development to justify why Ceara was disconnected from the Dream are hard to pull-off.

The Implications Of Vorpp’s Conjecture
Although others may beg to differ, it is now denialist to maintain that Dream sylvari are not somehow connected to Mordremoth. For Vorpp himself speculates that Ceara brought something into Omadd’s experiment – something that was clearly inside her, before she participated in the experiment; before Thaumanova. The only way that anyone can continue to oppose this conclusion is to argue that Vorpp is somehow wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time: He could never truly reverse-engineer Ceara’s hand-held portal device. Furthermore, members of the lore community sit in judgment of a number of different NPCs’ assessments of events. Gamarien, for example, is considered at least partially wrong when he states that the Great Jungle Wurm of Wychmire Swamp is dead. Thruln the Lost is also considered mistaken on some points. So it is not as though evaluating Vorpp’s analysis is out-of-place: It’s just that it feels like special pleading.

Closing Criticisms
I know that some within the lore community will be buzzing about the possibility that Ceara was the first sylvari to be corrupted by an Elder Dragon. I have written this lengthy analysis to demonstrate that, if this proves true – if Ceara is indeed the first canonical example of a sylvari corrupted by an Elder Dragon, explaining why she is any different than Nightmare Courtiers or Soundless will prove to be a conceptual minefield. There is at least one glaring inconsistency in any attempt to argue that Ceara was disconnected from the Dream, even if involuntarily: The Pale Tree’s conversation with her whilst she was inside Omadd’s isolation module. This is development’s greatest mistake: To demonstrate that Ceara truly was disconnected from the Dream at that point, no exchange between her and the tree should have been included in the short story “What Scarlet Saw”. Suffice to say, I am bitterly disappointed that a more polished approach to introducing Mordremoth into Tyria has not been presented. I am not trying to be negative for the sake of being negative, I am merely pointing-out a real problem that needs addressing.

I feel like you missed one very important possibility. Caera chose a different dream.

My interpretation of the short story is that she disconnected herself from the Dream and found something else to latch on to, stupidly thinking that it was her freedom she was gaining, she stepped out only to be bound to the dreams of Mordy.

She saw something and she went towards it. Also the pale tree became silent after Caera said “shhhh”.

I also don’t believe that Mordy is a very dark part of the Pale tree. I do believe that Mordy is his own tree, he can create, corrupt, enslave plant like creatures but sylvari have to choose to be bound to him in order for him to control them. They have to cross that bridge and let go of their mother in order to be truly broken from the Pale tree. And I think that’s what Omadd’s machine enabled Caera to do.

Now that he’s awake though, who knows what he can do.

Hi Dirame,
First and foremost thanks for your feedback. I read your post and put a fair amount of thought into what you’ve suggested.

Let me begin by stating that your suggestion is great. My concern is not so much with such propositions, merely the way in which we explain why they are possible.

On the issue of a sylvari’s choice to ignore the Pale Tree: I’m not sure whether rebellion against the will of the Pale Tree is enough to severe the link between parent and child. For starters, Ceara was not the first to do so. Cadeyrn questioned the Pale Tree, after which she became silent, yet no one has ever suggested that he severed his connection to the Dream at that point. Moreover, arguably every Nightmare Courtier is resisting the will of the Pale Tree in the same way that Ceara did – does this mean that they too have been severed from the Dream? Finally, consider that Ceara herself always ignored the Pale Tree: When she was born, Ceara hushed Mender Serimon, implicitly ignoring the Pale Tree’s attempt to empower her child with a Wyld Hunt. I find it extremely hard to argue that merely because someone wants to be severed from the Dream – i.e. at least some of the Soundless – therefore they can severe themselves from it. At the heart of this matter is the question: Is a sylvari’s connection to the Dream merely a perceived reality, or an objective reality?

Anyhow, thanks for your feedback.

I will read everything tomorrow after I have had some sleep but I’ll say this first:

Scarlet and the Soundless are not alike. Scarlet got cut off from the Dream, the Soundless use continuous meditation to disconnect themselves from the Dream. The difference here being that the Soundless are not really cut off, the Pale Tree can still contact them but usually choses not to (because she 1; respects their choice and 2; it requires more effort to contact a Soundless)

Scarlet however was truly cut off.

Hi Jelle,
I accept the assertion that she was truly cut off. My question is: How?

The Soundless cut themeselves by choice, but it’s not permanent and they have to persist on meditating to achieve being in that state constantly. But the Pale Tree still has influence on them, so whatever method she utilized to wall-off certain part/s of their psyche is still active on them.

That was not the case with Ceara. Omadd’s experiment broke off the barrier, and thus must have had created a weakness that the entity took advantage off to take control of her and cut her connection to the Dream.

Stephen.6312:

Hi Dirame,
First and foremost thanks for your feedback. I read your post and put a fair amount of thought into what you’ve suggested.

Let me begin by stating that your suggestion is great. My concern is not so much with such propositions, merely the way in which we explain why they are possible.

On the issue of a sylvari’s choice to ignore the Pale Tree: I’m not sure whether rebellion against the will of the Pale Tree is enough to severe the link between parent and child. For starters, Ceara was not the first to do so. Cadeyrn questioned the Pale Tree, after which she became silent, yet no one has ever suggested that he severed his connection to the Dream at that point. Moreover, arguably every Nightmare Courtier is resisting the will of the Pale Tree in the same way that Ceara did – does this mean that they too have been severed from the Dream? Finally, consider that Ceara herself always ignored the Pale Tree: When she was born, Ceara hushed Mender Serimon, implicitly ignoring the Pale Tree’s attempt to empower her child with a Wyld Hunt. I find it extremely hard to argue that merely because someone wants to be severed from the Dream – i.e. at least some of the Soundless – therefore they can severe themselves from it. At the heart of this matter is the question: Is a sylvari’s connection to the Dream merely a perceived reality, or an objective reality?

Anyhow, thanks for your feedback.

Perceived reality or objective reality? You’d have explain the difference for me because I can’t quite get my head around what that would mean.

The way I phrased my point should have answered the question of how. In order to break free of the dream, you have to have another will to bind yourself to. Then and only then can you truly break free of the dream.

Thinking about it though, the image of the Pale tree being bound by a red thorn vine would suggest that Scarlet may be introducing Mordy into the dream. The Pale Tree also saying that what Scarlet was doing would hurt the Pale tree also suggests that Mordy is being introduced into the dream. She could figuratively and literally be the breach in the pale tree.
Also if Vorpp is right that Scarlet brought something with her into Omadd’s machine, meaning that she always had a connection to Mordy only that it was carefully walled off, then isn’t there merit to the point that the Pale Tree is an Elder dragon minion?
I mean if we think about it, Ventari found the seed in a place full of seeds, is it not possible that they were put there by Mordy or a previous Mordy minion bearing fruit and storing them for the next awakening of his master?

….Too many questions and I think I just ran away with the ball.

If the above theory is truly the case though, then Mordy will have the opportunity to influence Sylvari as time passes.

Hey Eluveitie,
I was discussing my own misgivings about this issue with an in-game friend and he pointed out that he didn’t see the inconsistency. So I suppose that some would consider that I’m just being pedantic.

Still, I’m not sure what to make of any attempt to explain how Omadd’s machine severed Ceara’s link to the Dream, empowered her to break free of the mental restraints blocking Mordremoth’s access to her mind etc etc when the short story “What Scarlet Saw” involves an exchange between the Pale Tree and Ceara whilst the latter is inside Omadd’s machine, supposedly “viewing” the Eternal Alchemy. This suggests to me that the machine was not able to impede the Pale Tree’s connection to Ceara at all. Furthermore, if Ceara alone was behind the breaking of the mental restraints placed inside her own mind by the Pale Tree, Dream, or whatever, how could she do it? Moreover, why is she the only one that could/has?

Omadd’s machine didn’t disconnect her from the dream and I don’t think it was supposed to do that itself.
“With the Pale Tree’s desperate words and her own raucous laughter growing echoing across the void, Ceara plunged through the vision of the great tree and beyond.”
The connection seems to be severed after her conversation with the Pale tree and whatever happened after it and before she woke up is when she made contact with Mord.

I love reading these kind of threads, makes me hopeful for some great future stories.

That said lets not forget at times it seems the players put more thought into it than the devs themselves, like gargoyles?

Now here’s my opinion on the matter:

It’s said that what she saw was not what she actually saw, in other words, she didn’t actually knew what she saw.

If the soundless can mentally block out the pale tree, loosing ones mind could have the same effect, specially if there were voices and nightmares involved that prove her mind got seriously affected.

Doesn’t mean she got corrupted or disconnected from the Dream.

What could have happen then?

In the final cutscene it appears the blue line goes directly to Mordremoth, I think this was unintended.
I think the intention was to show the entire lay line network being disrupted, as in the entire planet, Mordremoth woke up because frankly he was the last still sleeping.
All the other ones woke up on their own, they didn’t need anything that massive done to wake them up.
Why would Mordremoth need, or be dependant, to wait for someone to “peek” in the “eternal alchemy” (one in a quadrillion chance of happening) so he could corrupt that someone and make that person do everything Scarlet did just to wake him up?

She did what she did because she got crazy, as far as we know the voices in her head might not even been from Mordremoth. His awakening might have been an accident.

The dragon painted on the cave makes for a strong argument, and we can talk about it till the sun explodes, like how could she think a dragon would rule Tyria? We already have some of those and they cause nothing but trouble, besides, dragons aren’t friends with anyone they just do their thing.
What would Scarlet gain on waking up this last one?
The others are already destroying Tyria somewhere on the planet, and we know they can be killed.

As for the corruption, it’s said Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption,.so how could she been corrupted?
Having that said, I’ve always said in my opinion that the Pale Tree can be a means of spawning dragon minions.
Not a champion, much less a dragon herself, JUST means to spawn.
Lets not forget, the foundations of the Pale Tree are based on Ventari’s table, it’s the corner stone, the very pillar of the Tree moral code, and most important of all, it was a completely random event.
No other Tree (and we know for a fact there are others) have a Ventari tablet.

Can Sylvari be dragon minions that were unnaturally influenced by the Ventari tablet? I think they sure can.
Nightmare Court say they are what Sylvari are spouse to be.
Can a Destroyer be corrupted by Jormag? Not that I know of, I don’t think Dragons can corrupt each others minions that could easily explain why Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption.

Stephen.6312:

Hey Eluveitie,
I was discussing my own misgivings about this issue with an in-game friend and he pointed out that he didn’t see the inconsistency. So I suppose that some would consider that I’m just being pedantic.

Still, I’m not sure what to make of any attempt to explain how Omadd’s machine severed Ceara’s link to the Dream, empowered her to break free of the mental restraints blocking Mordremoth’s access to her mind etc etc when the short story “What Scarlet Saw” involves an exchange between the Pale Tree and Ceara whilst the latter is inside Omadd’s machine, supposedly “viewing” the Eternal Alchemy. This suggests to me that the machine was not able to impede the Pale Tree’s connection to Ceara at all. Furthermore, if Ceara alone was behind the breaking of the mental restraints placed inside her own mind by the Pale Tree, Dream, or whatever, how could she do it? Moreover, why is she the only one that could/has?

That’s a question probably only a dev could answer, because everything anyone can do here is just speculate and theorize. But I wouldn’t get my hopes high, seeing how much explanation we got in the finale.

As Vorpp said, we need to know more about the Dream and how it works, before drawing to conclusions. All I can theorize is that the machine weakened the link between Ceara and the Pale Tree somehow, thus allowing the entity to cut deeper into her mind slowly, and eventually gained control over her.

Dean Calaway.9718:

As for the corruption, it’s said Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption,.so how could she been corrupted?
Having that said, I’ve always said in my opinion that the Pale Tree can be a means of spawning dragon minions.
Not a champion, much less a dragon herself, JUST means to spawn.
Lets not forget, the foundations of the Pale Tree are based on Ventari’s table, it’s the corner stone, the very pillar of the Tree moral code, and most important of all, it was a completely random event.
No other Tree (and we know for a fact there are others) have a Ventari tablet.

Can Sylvari be dragon minions that were unnaturally influenced by the Ventari tablet? I think they sure can.
Nightmare Court say they are what Sylvari are spouse to be.
Can a Destroyer be corrupted by Jormag? Not that I know of, I don’t think Dragons can corrupt each others minions that could easily explain why Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption.

The Ventari Tablets are just that, tablets. They’re large stones that a dying centaur carved his memoirs into. They have no natural magical power on their own. The only known way to remove a dragon’s corruption is through a highly complex Forgotten ritual. This is what broke Glint’s connection to Kralkatorrik during the last rising, and the ritual was only recently rediscovered in Arah after Zhaitan’s death. There is nothing that indicates Ventari’s tablets have anywhere near the power required to break a dragon’s corruption. They’re just stones.

The sylvari personal story introduces Malyck, a sylvari from a different tree. He is much more like the Soundless/Dreamers than the Nightmare Court, indicating that the NC are just flat-out wrong about what the default sylvari is supposed to be.

The entire Crucible of Eternity dungeon shows just how wrong the assumption is that dragons cannot corrupt other dragon minions. The only reason we don’t have Icebroodestroyerisen running around is because the dragons are not close enough yet to be corrupting each other’s armies.

All together, while it’s possible the NC are dragon minions, there is little to no evidence suggesting the sylvari as a whole are naturally minions.

Silavor.6257:

Dean Calaway.9718:

As for the corruption, it’s said Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption,.so how could she been corrupted?
Having that said, I’ve always said in my opinion that the Pale Tree can be a means of spawning dragon minions.
Not a champion, much less a dragon herself, JUST means to spawn.
Lets not forget, the foundations of the Pale Tree are based on Ventari’s table, it’s the corner stone, the very pillar of the Tree moral code, and most important of all, it was a completely random event.
No other Tree (and we know for a fact there are others) have a Ventari tablet.

Can Sylvari be dragon minions that were unnaturally influenced by the Ventari tablet? I think they sure can.
Nightmare Court say they are what Sylvari are spouse to be.
Can a Destroyer be corrupted by Jormag? Not that I know of, I don’t think Dragons can corrupt each others minions that could easily explain why Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption.

The Ventari Tablets are just that, tablets. They’re large stones that a dying centaur carved his memoirs into. They have no natural magical power on their own. The only known way to remove a dragon’s corruption is through a highly complex Forgotten ritual. This is what broke Glint’s connection to Kralkatorrik during the last rising, and the ritual was only recently rediscovered in Arah after Zhaitan’s death. There is nothing that indicates Ventari’s tablets have anywhere near the power required to break a dragon’s corruption. They’re just stones.

The sylvari personal story introduces Malyck, a sylvari from a different tree. He is much more like the Soundless/Dreamers than the Nightmare Court, indicating that the NC are just flat-out wrong about what the default sylvari is supposed to be.

The entire Crucible of Eternity dungeon shows just how wrong the assumption is that dragons cannot corrupt other dragon minions. The only reason we don’t have Icebroodestroyerisen running around is because the dragons are not close enough yet to be corrupting each other’s armies.

All together, while it’s possible the NC are dragon minions, there is little to no evidence suggesting the sylvari as a whole are naturally minions.

Where did the Mordremoth corruption come from? The cavern guardians, the first born test subject or Scarlet?

Does that mean when legions of Sylvari begin attacking the rest of Tyria from Maguma Falls, that the Sylvari will be looked on with mistrust because of who created them?

Another bit to chew on, did Mordy increase Scarlet’s intellect to even greater levels? If that was the power he gave her as his champion, then does that mean that Mordy is the exact opposite of Zhaitan? Where Zhaitan uses everything that was to build his forces, Mordremoth uses everything new. This nature dragon may be far more deadly than Zhaitan, if every champion he has is based on evolution. OH CRUDLY!!!! I just released mid-post that the Toxic Hybrid “evolved” very rapidly. What if Mordy has that kind of power?

I find the above speculation fascinating. And the Sylvari culture is easily my favorite culture in Tyria. I wanted to ask – Do you remember the fight against the nightmare corruption when you start a new Sylvari character? Why does this corruption take the form of a dragon? If I recall correctly you had to kill the corruption before it takes root within the dream. Surely this is evidence that the Dream can be corrupted, influenced or altered. Remember that Ventari himself is reciting his “laws” as you walk through the dream.