Guild Wars 2

Today I was thinking, could the nightmare court be the minions of Mordremoth. From what I’ve seen, anyone who joins the nightmare court can’t return, much like other dragon minions. I also could be completely wrong though, idk if this has already been discussed. Just thought it would be interesting if they were his minions.

It could be a stretch, however if you compare the NM Court to the Sons of Svanir then it is a possibility. Although the SoS are not technically minions of Jormag (READ: Icebrood).

Like I said, a small stretch but I believe the NM Court deviance from the main Sylvari is a more localized/racial issue than being drawn by the power of Mordremoth.

I was just thinking because they you can’t be turned back to the dream, and that the nightmare you fight in the dream looks like a dragon. And I know that SoS are not minions of Jormag, its the icebrood, because the svanir aren’t corrupted, Seems more like a belief.

Well, since the Nightmare Court Sylvaris are born from the Pale Tree just as the regular Sylvari, it means all Sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions. The Nightmare Court probably just answered to their real master, Mordremoth, and regular Sylvari and the Pale Tree were heavily influenced by Ventari’s Tablet that preached for peace&love, which would be the reason why they are “good”. Just my 0.02$

The Nightmare Dragon you fight in the tutorial is meant to be representation of your Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan (and indeed, has a lot of similarities with his lieutenant dragons), so that one in particular has nothing to do with Mordremoth.

That said, that the Nightmare Court are being passively corrupted by Mordremoth/that Sylvari/the Pale Tree are minions of his are a theory that’s been running for quite a while now.

The big wrench in the cogs for it, though, is that the Nightmare Court are actually just as against the Elder Dragons as Dreamer Sylvari are—they just wish to handle it (and mark their place in the world) in a much more brutal manner, and the issue has taken a backseat to trying to turn the Pale Tree and all Sylvari to their views before taking them on. Dragon minions are unfailingly loyal to their cause—they’re so controlled by the Elder Dragons that they have little self-expression (except for a handful of higher-ranking minions) and none have shown any sense of rebellion once corrupted. The Nightmare court are not only totally off-track from the pure-destruction in the name of their dragon (even as not-full minions A-La the Sons of Svanir, they invoke absolutely nothing in the name of Mordremoth) but actively believe they are a menace to be put down.

So personally I would say the Nightmare Court are a natural, if fanatical, off-set of the Sylvari as we know them—understand that while the Nightmare Court makes active attempts to turn and absorb every Sylvari to Nightmare, they are not synonymous with the idea. Nightmare is part of the Dream, the Nightmare Court is a collective cult of Sylvari who have fallen into it. Their ideas, however twisted they have become due to their nature, are their own. And their goal has nothing to do with serving any Elder Dragon.

There are some hints that the corruption of the Nightmare may be related to dragon corruption (although the theory that the Pale Tree is itself a champion that was somehow freed through the Ventari Tablet has holes in it that you can drive a truck through*). The line of thought goes roughly as follows:

1) Blighted Husks are associated with the Nightmare Court. They’re also associated with the corruption in the Jungle Worm meta-event, and with the dragons through their appearance in the Crucuble of Eternity.

2) Mordremoth’s focus being plants, it’s likely that it has ways to get around whatever makes sylvari immune to other forms of dragon corruption.

3) As previously expressed, the Nightmare Court has a distinct feel of ‘you can never turn back’. (It’d be interesting to see if the Forgotten Ritual can overturn that.)

4) Caithe and Faolain are described as being the first Sylvari to encounter the Nightmare, indicating that it wasn’t of Cadeyrne’s creation. It’s implied that they found it while investigating the dragons, suggesting that there may be some connection.

Now, if this theory is true, it’s along then lines of the Sons of Svanir – Sylvari who come over to the Nightmare fall under the influence of the Plant Dragon of Nightmares, rather than Sylvari being Mordremoth minions by default.

*For the record, the flaws come about because the theory was popularised at a time when certain assumptions were made that were reasonable at the time, but have since been disproved. For example:

Assumption 1: Dragon minions are immune to dragon corruption.
Logic: Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption. Since dragon minions and sylvari are both immune to dragon corruption, sylvari are dragon minions.
Flaw: We see examples in Crucuble of Eternity of Inquest test subjects that have been corrupted by tkittenence of multiple dragons – indicating that being already claimed by one provides no special resistance to the corruption of others. Forgotten artifacts in Arah are immune to corruption and the Forgotten had a ritual to cleanse corruption, showing that while the dragons cannot bestow immunity to corruption, the Forgotten could.

Assumption 2: The Pale Tree is the only example of a Sylvari-producing entity. Thus, it is possible that the Nightmare Court is right in that the effect of the Ventari Tablet is an aberration.
Logic: The true nature of the sylvari might, then, be dragon minions.
Flaw: One of the sylvari personal story arcs has a sylvari who turns out to have come from a different Tree, deeper in the Maguuma. That sylvari behaves in a manner closer to Dream sylvari than Nightmare sylvari. Thus, it seems that the Tablet has been adopted that it is close enough to the sylvari racial personality for the Pale Tree, not that the Tablet has resulted in a fundamental shift in sylvari personality.

Assumption 3: It is possible to break free of a dragon’s control by sheer force of will.
Logic: Thus, through the example of Ventari and the teachings of the Tablet, the Pale Tree could have decided that her hypothetical dragon master was in the wrong and broken free.
Flaw: We can blame Glint for this one, since in GoA skittenentially claimed that she broke free independantly after realising that other Tyrian life had more right to survive than the Elder Dragons. From her perspective, this might be true, but we have since discovered that it was Forgotten magic that allowed Glint to break free. According to current knowledge on dragon corruption and its treatment, it is not in fact possible to win one’s freedom without the intervention of powerful magic, which Ventari was unlikely to be in possession of.

Djahlat.9610:

Well, since the Nightmare Court Sylvaris are born from the Pale Tree just as the regular Sylvari, it means all Sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions. The Nightmare Court probably just answered to their real master, Mordremoth, and regular Sylvari and the Pale Tree were heavily influenced by Ventari’s Tablet that preached for peace&love, which would be the reason why they are “good”. Just my 0.02$

I’m sorry but NO….
Sons of Svanir follow Jormag, but that does not make all Norn minions of Jormag – quite the opposite.
There is a difference between something that is a minion and something that simply follows a dragon. Sylvari are not minions of a dragon, they’re a sentient playable race, it wouldn’t make any logical sense.
It is POSSIBLE that the Nightmare Court follow Mordremoth, but if they do then they do so unknowingly, it doesn’t extend to all Sylvari though..

Basically what Drax said.

I think the Blighted will end up being the minions of Mordremoth, at least there are hints pointing to that.

I think that Mordremoth can’t physically corrupt Sylvari even if they’re plants, but I think he has a way into the dream, which allows him to mentally coax certain Sylvari, and with those sylvaris actively working to fill the dream with evil acts, that influence expands.

But except for the mental part, gaining them as allies (even if the NC may not know Mordremoth is behind the Nightmare), I don’t think the NC are real minions. The SoS aren’t minions at first, but with time they’re “gifted” power and physical transformation by Jormag, which reminds me of Warhammer’s Chaos forces where powerful northener soldiers were gifted with horrible mutations and powers that they took as favors (in fact I think Jormag doesn’t even care and they’re just passively corrupted like any creature standing on Jormag’s “radiation”, I think at best Jormag finds the SoS amusing), and most elite SoS you find are already Icebrood. NC in the other hand I don’t think can become “blighted” or whatever the minions of Mordremoth might be, just mentally driven to help his cause.

What a twist it would be if nightmare court are the good guys and the dream and the central Tree is a Dragon. Proof is in that all Sylvari are connected to the tree share a hive mind like the dragons. Nightmare courts recruiting statement “The Dream is a lye” which most dreams are. Proof is the world is a nightmare with dragons rising in retrospect the current reality is a nighmare. Though the leader trying to kill glint is a define contradiction to this theory. additional proof Sylvari are spawned by the tree like the dragon minions from the dragons. All this is subjective and has no supporting proof in lore.

Fafnir.5124:

What a twist it would be if nightmare court are the good guys and the dream and the central Tree is a Dragon. Proof is in that all Sylvari are connected to the tree share a hive mind like the dragons. Nightmare courts recruiting statement “The Dream is a lye” which most dreams are. Proof is the world is a nightmare with dragons rising in retrospect the current reality is a nighmare. Though the leader trying to kill glint is a define contradiction to this theory. additional proof Sylvari are spawned by the tree like the dragon minions from the dragons. All this is subjective and has no supporting proof in lore.

If the dream is a “lye” than we just put in Hydrochloric acid to neutralize it! :p

jokes aside, I don’t think they are with the Dragons at all.
I think (and hope) that they are just the “bad guys” for Sylvari much like centaurs/bandits are for humans and flame legion is for charr.

My very old and outdated (but not disproven – there’s just more information found that works with or independent from my research/stance) theory on Mordremoth’s minions.

My findings were more or less summarized by draxynnic.

My personal theory is that the Nightmare Court are being manipulated by Mordremoth via the Nightmare. Not corrupted, just manipulated.

Keep in mind that sylvari are immune to dragon corruption – rather than being corrupted, they simply die. The reason for this is unknown, but we know that dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruptions. So we know for a fact that the sylvari are not dragon minions – given this, Malyck, and the nature of how sylvari are made all being different.

The Nightmare witnessed within the Dream of Dreams, however, does seem very similar to dragon corruption, so it may be Mordremoth’s influence. Not just for the “there’s no turning back” that joining the Nightmare Court have, which may be an indication of either Mordremoth finding a way around the “immune to corruption” or that the mere influence is enough to prevent return, but there’s also the “pods” that the NC toss sylvari into to twist to their cause – very similar to the blocks of ice and crystal seen to make icebrood/branded in Frostgorge Sound and Iron Marches respectively (northeastern areas in both zones).

Fafnir.5124:

Proof is in that all Sylvari are connected to the tree share a hive mind like the dragons.

Wrong. The Dream of Dream is not a collective consciousness. It’s a one-way reception of memories. Think of the Dream of Dreams like a television, and the sylvari are recording devices.

Dragon minions function differently – they hear the dragon’s thoughts, and the dragon learns everything they know, and have known. The dragon minions’ mentality and thoughts are also changed, turned into fanatic followers of the dragon. It’s not a case of the dragons seeing what their minions have seen like the sylvari, but learning everything there is to learn.

Furthermore, dragon minions have shown no sign of sharing knowledge among each other.

Fafnir.5124:

additional proof Sylvari are spawned by the tree like the dragon minions from the dragons.

Wrong. Don’t forget that dragons cannot create, only corrupt pre-existing things. However, the sylvari are born – are created – from the Pale Tree. Even destroyers come from lava and rock. The more dragon minions there are, the less ground and beings there are. But the more sylvari there are, the amount of ground and beings is unchanged.

In short:
The sylvari themselves are nothing like dragon minions. The Dream of Dreams doesn’t function the same as dragon minion collective consciousness or fanaticism. But the Nightmare may, but not the sylvari on a whole in any way shape or form. And hell, the stone dwarves are closer to dragon minions than sylvari. They were turned from flesh to something elemental, given a collective consciousness, and had their mentality changed to becoming fanatic for something (destruction of Elder Dragons).

Lokheit.7943:

in fact I think Jormag doesn’t even care and they’re just passively corrupted like any creature standing on Jormag’s “radiation”, I think at best Jormag finds the SoS amusing

I’d disagree with this. Jormag is said by a Whispers agent in the Arundon Vale of Frostgorge Sound to convince individuals to join him before corrupting (while other Elder Dragons corrupt to enslave), and the Frost Portal makes mention of offering strength by joining Jormag. There’s also mention within Edge of Destiny about how the first Sons of Svanir were seduced via promises of power, and we saw how the Dragonspawn was trying to corrupt Zojja by making her interested in it. Then in Honor of the Waves’ story mode, that Koda’s Bane norn calls upon Jormag after corrupting the Voice for more power, and is granted such – this shows that the SoS take power after proving their worth (be it because they’re opening a “channel” to Jormag, or because Jormag is offering it as a reward).

This points to Jormag wanting to corrupt those who seek strength or are powerful, so I think those gifts truly are “blessings” proactively granted from Jormag. Jormag is also said to hand-select his champions, the Claws of Jormag.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

-snip-
Don’t forget that dragons cannot create, only corrupt pre-existing things.
-snip-

On a complete aside subject… Weren’t the destroyers created from rocks and lava the same way that the sylvari were created from sap, brambles, leaves and other plant parts?

Note that I’m not saying that the sylvari are dragon minions. I think they’re not. I agree with you about the NC being the only sylvari with any potential to be related somehow with Mordremoth.

But i thought the destroyers were created by Primordious not corrupted. And if they were corrupted. What’s their original form?

Destroyers are “made” using rocks and lava – yes, as I said; but this is done via corrupting the rock and lava into minions. But sylvari are not born from taking the plantlife around them and being twisted into a humanoid shape. They’re born like any other plant is born.

As said before, destroyers are made from the land itself – just like risen are made from the corpses. It’s an equal 1-for-1 ratio of the environment being reduced to make more dragon minions. Sylvari lack this aspect, as the environment’s not being reduced in the sylvari’s creations (otherwise the Maguuma would pretty much be barren of plantlife due to the rate at which sylvari are born now).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Destroyers are “made” using rocks and lava – yes, as I said; but this is done via corrupting the rock and lava into minions. But sylvari are not born from taking the plantlife around them and being twisted into a humanoid shape. They’re born like any other plant is born.

As said before, destroyers are made from the land itself – just like risen are made from the corpses. It’s an equal 1-for-1 ratio of the environment being reduced to make more dragon minions. Sylvari lack this aspect, as the environment’s not being reduced in the sylvari’s creations (otherwise the Maguuma would pretty much be barren of plantlife due to the rate at which sylvari are born now).

The enviroment is being reduced but just as any regular plant would reduce it, by consuming water, carbon dioxide an some soil components, while fueled by the sun. If that even exists in Tyria (I’m guessing it does).
The matter ratio is still 1-for-1 it’s just not that obvious.

But Ludo, the 1 for 1 ratio you are talking about is no different from the 1 to 1 ratio is the same/similar as the 1 for 1 ratio of humans, norn, charr, and asura. Meaning, it’s not the same as dragon corruption. New life is made overall, it isn’t a conglomeration of parts.

Narcemus.1348:

But Ludo, the 1 for 1 ratio you are talking about is no different from the 1 to 1 ratio is the same/similar as the 1 for 1 ratio of humans, norn, charr, and asura. Meaning, it’s not the same as dragon corruption. New life is made overall, it isn’t a conglomeration of parts.

My point is that what Primordious and only Primordious does should be considered not only corruption, but creation.
It’s like an asura creating a golem.
Mening that being a dragon doesn’t forbid you from creating. Just because the Jormag, Kralk and Zhaitan don’t create minions, it doesn’t mean Mordremoth and Chtulhu are not able to do that.

What are the sources for:
1. Dragon minions can be corrupted by other dragon corruption?
2. Caithe and Faolain saw Nightmare before Cadeyrne made the Court?

Ludovicus.7980:

My point is that what Primordious and only Primordious does should be considered not only corruption, but creation.
It’s like an asura creating a golem.
Mening that being a dragon doesn’t forbid you from creating. Just because the Jormag, Kralk and Zhaitan don’t create minions, it doesn’t mean Mordremoth and Chtulhu are not able to do that.

The difference is that Primordus is making his “version” of golems by twisting the land itself with corruptive magic. In one meaning of the word, yes, he is creating.

But so is Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Jormag, the DSD, and probably Mordremoth. They’re making life where life was not (such as corpses or water or dirt or ice) – that’s creation. However, how they’re making it – and this fully includes Primordus – is by twisting the very fabric of what it is, making it different than before. Making a destroyer is by no means the same as mining metal, melting it down into a new shape, and then powering it via heated liquid.

So even if on a very generic meaning, Primordus is “creating” – by means of argument here, he is not creating. All you’re doing, Ludo, is arguing semantics.

The point remains the same: sylvari are not born in any ways similar to any of the known Elder Dragon minions, which all take a direct 1 to 1 ratio of pure raw elements and make minions out of those pure raw elements. They probably don’t even need to breath, and sylvari very much do.

My point, in the TL;DR version, is that sylvari are not made by taking pre-existing plants and twisting them together to make humanoid shapes.

Mr Mango.3504:

What are the sources for:
1. Dragon minions can be corrupted by other dragon corruption?
2. Caithe and Faolain saw Nightmare before Cadeyrne made the Court?

1. Crucible of Eternity – story mode’s Kudu and Kudu’s Monster; explorable mode’s infamous Subject Alpha.
2. Dialogue in Twilight Arbor story mode, an interview in the past, and I believe somewhere else in-game too (or was it Edge of Destiny?).

Ok, so you’re saying the destroyers are corrupted rock and lava.

draxynnic.3719:

1) Blighted Husks are associated with the Nightmare Court. They’re also associated with the corruption in the Jungle Worm meta-event, and with the dragons through their appearance in the Crucuble of Eternity.

For that matter, the Great Jungle Wurm chain happens almost literally on the doorstep of Twilight Arbor.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Lokheit.7943:

in fact I think Jormag doesn’t even care and they’re just passively corrupted like any creature standing on Jormag’s “radiation”, I think at best Jormag finds the SoS amusing

I’d disagree with this. Jormag is said by a Whispers agent in the Arundon Vale of Frostgorge Sound to convince individuals to join him before corrupting (while other Elder Dragons corrupt to enslave), and the Frost Portal makes mention of offering strength by joining Jormag. There’s also mention within Edge of Destiny about how the first Sons of Svanir were seduced via promises of power, and we saw how the Dragonspawn was trying to corrupt Zojja by making her interested in it. Then in Honor of the Waves’ story mode, that Koda’s Bane norn calls upon Jormag after corrupting the Voice for more power, and is granted such – this shows that the SoS take power after proving their worth (be it because they’re opening a “channel” to Jormag, or because Jormag is offering it as a reward).

This points to Jormag wanting to corrupt those who seek strength or are powerful, so I think those gifts truly are “blessings” proactively granted from Jormag. Jormag is also said to hand-select his champions, the Claws of Jormag.

Ok you got me there then I didn’t thought about some of those examples before. Just out of curiosity, where is stated that Jormag hand-select his Claws?

Anyway my main point that I diverged from a bit there was that I see the Nightmare Court as mentally influented by Mordremoth, but not as physically corrupted by him which would explain why they would “work for a dragon” (or at least fulfill his agenda while thinking they’re on charge) without being corrupted (which would kill them before turning). I think I’ve read it before from a post of yours about how Mordremoth could be influenting the dream if it’s a part of the mist, and that would explain how he could be taking the mental part to twist the NC, and the more NC there are, the easier that is to twist the dream.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

draxynnic.3719:

1) Blighted Husks are associated with the Nightmare Court. They’re also associated with the corruption in the Jungle Worm meta-event, and with the dragons through their appearance in the Crucuble of Eternity.

For that matter, the Great Jungle Wurm chain happens almost literally on the doorstep of Twilight Arbor.

As I’ve said before, I think it’s perfectly possible for the NC to be working on the same direction than Mordremoth without needing to be his minions at born (which I think there is more than enough proof to prove wrong) or being corrupted by them (which they can’t without dying) simply with Mordremoth accessing and twisting the dream. That would explain that chain event and their base of operations being so close to each other.

Lokheit.7943:

Just out of curiosity, where is stated that Jormag hand-select his Claws?

It’s one of the NPCs near Rojan the Penitent at where the Claw is fought.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

draxynnic.3719:

1) Blighted Husks are associated with the Nightmare Court. They’re also associated with the corruption in the Jungle Worm meta-event, and with the dragons through their appearance in the Crucuble of Eternity.

For that matter, the Great Jungle Wurm chain happens almost literally on the doorstep of Twilight Arbor.

Indeed, while IIRC, there’s an indication that the NPCs don’t believe the evil of the swamp is (entirely) due to the Nightmare Court’s presence – there’s something else, and it could easily be that something else that attracted the NC rather than the other way around.

There seems to be a major world event related to each dragon at the moment: Shatterer, claw of Jormag, Tequatl the Sunless, Megadestroyer in the volcano, and presumably the great jungle wurm in Caledon Forest. This would suggest that the avatars of blight are agents of the jungle dragon.

These husk things seem to be used by the nightmare court and the jungle dragon. They look like big plant like equivalents of elementals/golems/zombies. Brute force with no brains. Are there any clues how husks come into existence? Does anyone know if husks have any affinity to any master, rather than just serving anyone who can create them?

I’m sorry, I haven’t been around the forums much recently but who is this “mordremoth”?

It is the name of the sixth "known " elder dragon : the jungle dragon.

When was this name confirmed? or is it just another “bubbles” idea…

Morphic.7045:

When was this name confirmed? or is it just another “bubbles” idea…

The name comes from the crucible of eternity dungeon.
There are 3 attacks made by subject alpha that have dragon names:
Teeth of primordous
Teeth of jormag
Teeth of mordremoth
For more info, look at the wiki:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordremoth

OH cool, great find whoever noticed this! thanks for your time sir.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

My personal theory is that the Nightmare Court are being manipulated by Mordremoth via the Nightmare. Not corrupted, just manipulated.

Keep in mind that sylvari are immune to dragon corruption – rather than being corrupted, they simply die. The reason for this is unknown, but we know that dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruptions. So we know for a fact that the sylvari are not dragon minions – given this, Malyck, and the nature of how sylvari are made all being different.

I’ve actually come to the belief that there is a reason why the sylvari are immune to dragon corruption. And it does fit the Court being manipulated over corrupted. Here’s what I have, let me know if I’m out in left field or on to something:

Eleven thousand years ago, the dragons were running rampant. The Nightmare is Modremoth’s specialty, the darkness inside the shared consciousness of all of the elder races. The brightest minds of race ‘X’ turn the Nightmare back upon the dragon by creating the incorruptible proto-Pale Tree. It cleanses the Nightmare into the Dream and, over the span of a couple centuires, uses the knowledge it gleans from race ‘X’ into creating the proto-Sylvari race ‘Y’. Race Y is just as incorruptible and becomes the front line fighters in the war to finally put the dragons back to sleep. Something happens to the proto-Pale Tree, however, and so a stirring Modremoth is just recently able to restart the Nightmare fresh. Fortunately, there are seeds from that proto-Tree that are still in storage…

Now I have my suspicions over who is race X, who is race Y, how Ronan came to find the seeds, and how the Dreamers, Courtiers, and Malyck’s people all came to be, but I’ll leave that for later.

The main issue with your hypothesis Uruz, is that the elder races don’t have a shared consciousness. None that we knew of at least – the dwarves do now after undergoing the Rite of the Great Dwarf, but didn’t when flesh and blood. Secondly, this would be something really huge, and all knowledge the elder races had in relation had been recorded by the jotun and dwarves and now presented, so it seems unlikely that something so major and huge would be left unknown.

Mind you, there’s no way to disprove it, simply because it delves fully into the unknown – the unknown origins of the seeds, the unknown events of the last rise, the unknown other races that could have existed alongside the jotun, seers, mursaat, dwarves, forgotten, karka, djinn, and giganticus lupicus. But this also means there’s really nothing there to support it either. Of the known races, only the forgotten held any means of immunity to the Elder Dragons’ corruption, but they didn’t have a collective consciousness in any means.