Guild Wars 2

So, i am new at the forum and i dont know if i am posting this in the right page.
I was looking a little of the lore of the game in the wiki then i go to the zhaitan’s page and found the attached image.The image show size comparations between zhaitan and other 4 lesser dragons,3 of them i already have seen in the game: teq , claw of jormag And the shatterer bit the last one is strange to me,he have wood like skin and leaves in his body just like mordremoth description so i just conclude that he is the champion of the new dragon.idk if i am saying something nonsense just tell me what you think guys.
Sorry for the bad english

I think it is the skin from the dragon in the sylvari starting instance.

It could be argued that it is possibly a champion of mordremoth, but nothing is sure.

Nope, it’s the sylvari tutorial dragon from the Dream. I wouldn’t be surprised if they re-use the model in the near future as part of progressing the Mordremoth plot, but it’s actually a dragon people can fight within a minute or two of first playing the game.

To read more about it check this link: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_of_the_Dragon

Or create a sylvari character and do the tutorial.

I never player with sylvari so it make sense :p
it would be cool if he was all the time the big dragon champion

As others have said, that’s ‘a shadow of a terrible dragon’, found within the Dream of Dreams. Caithe says its presence was caused by the Nightmare Court, who wished to harm the sleepers (one of the few explicit links between the NC and dragons). The Pale Tree had a different interpretation:

I fear that it is. A Wyld Hunt is a sacred thing, a burden placed by the Dream upon the strongest and the bravest of my children. In your Dream, you fought an Elder Dragon face-to-face. Only two of my children have had such a dream. You, and Caithe. All sylvari fight the dragon’s servants, the undead, but I believe you will face Zhaitan itself. I also believe you will prevail.

It’s worth noting that the Pale Tree isn’t the creator of the Dream; she is just its caretaker. So although she has more knowledge of it than anyone else, what she says is still just an interpretation, which is why she says she “believes” that the Valiant will face Zhaitan.

I think both of them are probably wrong, and the true answer is one of two possibilities:

1. The Shadow of the Dragon is a manifestation of the Valiant’s Wyld Hunt, but that Wyld Hunt is not to defeat Zhaitan but the Elder Dragons in general. So the player’s Wyld Hunt isn’t “over” with the end of the personal story, but spans the entire story of Guild Wars 2.
2. The Shadow of the Dragon is a champion of Mordremoth, who is there spreading Nightmare. One of the few things that is not disputed about Mordremoth is that he is associated with Nightmare (Nightmare Hounds and Nightmare Husks are both strong candidates for minions of Mordremoth). So it wouldn’t be strange to see such a creature in the Dream. Besides, a lot of work went into creating that model, which unlike the models for the other bosses in the PS tutorial instances, isn’t used again, so I doubt they’d create such a thing if they didn’t plan to use it again :P

The more interesting question is this: was Scarlet a champion of Mordremoth? According to Faolain, one of the ways to tell that an Elder Dragon is rising soon is by watching for a champion, who prepares for their arrival. That’s what the Great Destroyer was doing, and Drakkar was doing it for Jormag for almost a century (hence Svanir).

Scarlet (and by extension, the entity controlling her, if you accept that it was controlling her) absolutely was responsible for the awakening of Mordremoth, but here’s the thing—Mordremoth was awakened several decades prior to when it “should” have. If Scarlet was a dragon champion, she wasn’t doing a very good job of it.

I still think Scarlet’s plan somehow involved stopping, or weakening the dragon. Putting the entity aside for a moment, consider Scarlet’s final words to Omadd:

It worked. I suppose I should thank you for that, though I bet I would have figured it out on my own eventually. Still, no reason to begrudge a genius his due, right?

So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain…it’s all part of a grand design. But I see the flaws in that design. My people don’t have to take what we’re given, or be what we were “born to be.” No people do. We can change the rules…well, I can. And I’m going to.

I’ve learned so much. Now I have to put that knowledge to use. An insurmountable challenge is rising, and my people have been called to meet it. We are compelled by our creator to do so.

But I reject that call. I reject the notion that that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how.

I have a great deal of work ahead of me. I don’t know what the world will be when I’m through, but I will very much enjoy finding out. Empires will fall, continents will burn, and when the conflagration is over, I’ll be there to put my stamp on whatever new world this one becomes.

Good-bye, old friend. All good students should take up their master’s mantle and share the wisdom they’ve attained. And I am a very, very good student.

In particular, “[The forces that push us this way or that] can be set against one another to the detriment of both”. I get the impression that, at this point at least, Scarlet saw herself as a liberator of sylvari, someone who would free them from their destiny (which is to fight for or against the Elder Dragons, depending on whether you ask Mordremoth or the Pale Tree). Whether this was still the case at the time of the Battle for Lion’s Arch is debatable, but one thing that I am confident in is that ANet needn’t have bothered with that story if Scarlet had been enthralled to the Elder Dragons the whole time.

Ignoring the derailing off-topic “Scarlet may be Mordremoth’s champion” theory that gets shoehorned into every topic on either, the Shadow of the Dragon is said to be a representation of Zhaitan (thus not accurate, design-wise this would be done to keep Zhaitan’s appearance hidden until later – this is likely why it highly resembles the head shape of Tequatl) by not just the Pale Tree but Caithe (iirc) and the Mender you speak to just after the tutorial, and a show of one of your two Wyld Hunts (the other chosen by your bio options).

The mention of seeing shadows of the Elder Dragon is also made on the official website for Guild Wars 2, which says a few sylvari who’s Wyld Hunts deal directly with the Elder Dragons and their strongest champions will see this shadow of the Dragon in question. So chances are it is Zhaitan, since we eventually go to kill him (and others go to fight other Dragon minions). Though it should be noted that what the Pale Tree actually says in regards to the PCs Wyld Hunt, is not just to kill Zhaitan, but to save Tyria multiple times, including against Zhaitan.

Is it possible that the conclusion that the Shadow of the Dragon is a representation of Zhaitan simply be a flawed conclusion from NPC PoV? That in a future story line the writers will say “lol red herring, NPCs can’t be trusted, Shadow of the Dragon is Mordremoth’s attempt to corrupt the Dream”? Note I’m not proposing the sylvari are Elder Dragon minions.

Caithe implies it’s not simply a “vision of the player’s Wyld Hunt” but rather it’s actual Nightmare manifesting within the Dream, that’s why she herself went there to face it. Caithe even says it’s poisoning the Dream (Caithe:“Something is poisoning the Dream.”) and she claims it was the result of the Nightmare Court ( Player:“Who caused this?” Caithe:“An evil group called the Nightmare Court. They wish to harm the sleepers. Trust me, sapling. All will be made clear to you very soon.”). So to me the most logical explanation is the Shadow of the Dragon was created by the Nightmare Court’s influence on the Dream and it manifests as a dragon because that’s the Wyld Hunt of the player character. That’s why you see Nightmare Hounds with it, it’s Nightmare’s influence on the Dream manifesting in the form the player character creates, not any particular dragon.

I kind of viewed the player character’s Wyld Hunt to face all the Elder Dragons, not just any one (whether it be Zhaitan or Mordremoth). The dragon is symbolic of the player sylvari’s future defending Tyria against all the dragons.

At least this is better then the crazy theory crafting I saw ingame about the Shadow of the Dragon actually appearing as a new world megaboss with the jungle dragon awakening…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Ignoring the derailing off-topic “Scarlet may be Mordremoth’s champion” theory that gets shoehorned into every topic on either, the Shadow of the Dragon is said to be a representation of Zhaitan (thus not accurate, design-wise this would be done to keep Zhaitan’s appearance hidden until later – this is likely why it highly resembles the head shape of Tequatl) by not just the Pale Tree but Caithe (iirc) and the Mender you speak to just after the tutorial, and a show of one of your two Wyld Hunts (the other chosen by your bio options).

The mention of seeing shadows of the Elder Dragon is also made on the official website for Guild Wars 2, which says a few sylvari who’s Wyld Hunts deal directly with the Elder Dragons and their strongest champions will see this shadow of the Dragon in question. So chances are it is Zhaitan, since we eventually go to kill him (and others go to fight other Dragon minions). Though it should be noted that what the Pale Tree actually says in regards to the PCs Wyld Hunt, is not just to kill Zhaitan, but to save Tyria multiple times, including against Zhaitan.

Yeah, I can really see how discussion of a “Scarlet may be Mordremoth’s champion” theory is pretty off-topic here, in the “Mordremoth’s champion?” thread :P anyway, the Shadow of the Dragon’s head shape probably just comes from the fact that it’s a reskin of Tequatl. Doesn’t have to be more complicated than that. All the dragon-shaped dragon champions have the same rigging, and if you’re designing a boss that’s only going to be in a single area, you’re not going to bother with a new mesh.

Caithe’s exact words are “Be brave, sapling. There is a darkness here, a poison intruding on the Dream. You must show courage, and be a beacon in the darkness.” (“intruding” implies the Shadow of the Dragon is something not originally of the Dream, so not a vision). Where does Serimon say Zhaitan? On the wiki page for Fighting the Nightmare, he only says “a dragon”. In any event, he’s not going to be privy to any information that Caithe and the Pale Tree are not.

We also have that the yellow-orange glow that pervades the Shadow of the Dragon is strongly reminiscent of the Summoned Husks. If it’s connected to any Elder Dragon, then, it’d be Mordremoth, not Zhaitan. Incidentally, that same glow is seen on Scarlet’s corpse, although that one’s a bit more tenuous since the resemblance isn’t as strong.

Kalavier.1097:

At least this is better then the crazy theory crafting I saw ingame about the Shadow of the Dragon actually appearing as a new world megaboss with the jungle dragon awakening…

If we have dragon champion world bosses for Mordremoth (which we almost certainly will), then they’ll have the same appearance as the Shadow of the Dragon, because why bother creating another giant plant dragon model when you’ve already got one? When that happens, there’ll be no choice but to explain the Shadow of the Dragon as a reflection of Mordremoth, since “we know this guy looks like all Mordremoth’s champions, but he’s actually Zhaitan” is convoluted and confusing.

So in a way, we probably will see it as a new world megaboss :P

Tamias.7059:

Yeah, I can really see how discussion of a “Scarlet may be Mordremoth’s champion” theory is pretty off-topic here, in the “Mordremoth’s champion?” thread :P

The thread is solely about the model used for Shadow of the Dragon being a dragon champion, as the OP did not know of the Shadow of the Dragon’s existence and the model was put next to Zhaitan and the seen dragon-shaped dragon champions. It wasn’t so much a thread on “Mordremoth’s champion” but more of “what is this? Is this a champion of Mordremoth?” but I digress.

Tamias.7059:

anyway, the Shadow of the Dragon’s head shape probably just comes from the fact that it’s a reskin of Tequatl. Doesn’t have to be more complicated than that. All the dragon-shaped dragon champions have the same rigging, and if you’re designing a boss that’s only going to be in a single area, you’re not going to bother with a new mesh.

It’s not a complete reskin of Tequatl, actually, as the legs, wings, back, and tail are all rather different. Only the head is similar, TBH, which is far more than can be said for the other dragon champions, whose only similarity is the same animation rigging.

And it doesn’t have to be more complicated than that because of the model, true, but because of the various mentions of calling it a representation of Zhaitan.

Tamias.7059:

Caithe’s exact words are “Be brave, sapling. There is a darkness here, a poison intruding on the Dream. You must show courage, and be a beacon in the darkness.” (“intruding” implies the Shadow of the Dragon is something not originally of the Dream, so not a vision). Where does Serimon say Zhaitan? On the wiki page for Fighting the Nightmare, he only says “a dragon”. In any event, he’s not going to be privy to any information that Caithe and the Pale Tree are not.

I didn’t say Caithe said it in the tutorial, but rather in the game (I thought it was the first PS instance in the Grove though wiki’s lacking in all of those regards – or it was in the same instance the Pale Tree said it). Anyways, Serimon says it in the cinematic at the end of the tutorial:

<Character name>: “She and I fought side by side against a poison in the Dream. I saw the shadow of a terrible dragon, and I felt the Dream call upon me to defeat it.”
Mender Serimon: “By the Tree! A Wyld Hunt, so soon? And such a momentous task. To be a Valiant of the Wyld Hunt is a difficult charge. Bear this calling with pride.”
<Character name>: “I will. But how do I begin? One does not simply awaken and rush off to face a dragon.”

A minor misremembering here. Serimon doesn’t say it is Zhaitan, but does say it is your Wyld Hunt, which is the important part, and to kill a dragon. It is because of Serimon that the PC says to the Pale Tree later on:

<Player name>: If I may ask, Mother—in my dream, I also saw a fierce, horrible dragon. I’ve been told it is my Wyld Hunt to face this monster. Is that true?

to which the Pale Tree says:

Avatar of the Tree: I fear that it is. A Wyld Hunt is a sacred thing, a burden placed by the Dream upon the strongest and the bravest of my children.
Avatar of the Tree: In your Dream, you fought an Elder Dragon face-to-face. Only two of my children have had such a dream. You, and Caithe.
Avatar of the Tree: All sylvari fight the dragon’s servants, the undead, but I believe you will face Zhaitan itself. I also believe you will prevail.

The Pale Tree is certain it is a Wyld Hunt. But only believes that it means Zhaitan. Though Caithe later says at the end of the personal story that her and the PC’s shared Wyld Hunt is over (in the Fort Trinity instance during Victory or Death, when talking to her), and there is no mention of lacking relief to Caithe, thus indicating that it is indeed over:

Caithe: Congratulations, Commander. Our shared Wyld Hunt started together, so it’s fitting that we end it together. We’ve more to do, but for now, rejoice: this victory will become part of the Dream.
->Let’s hope it inspires the next generation of sylvari.

When you take this – and the rest of your post – all it means is that the Nightmare made the Wyld Hunt’s representation tangible within the Dream, made it “real” and harmful.

Shiren.9532:

Is it possible that the conclusion that the Shadow of the Dragon is a representation of Zhaitan simply be a flawed conclusion from NPC PoV?

Completely so, but unlikely that the Pale Tree would make such a blunder, or the PC wouldn’t mention s/he felt his/her Wyld Hunt wasn’t complete to Caithe at the end of the PS.

Shiren.9532:

I kind of viewed the player character’s Wyld Hunt to face all the Elder Dragons, not just any one (whether it be Zhaitan or Mordremoth). The dragon is symbolic of the player sylvari’s future defending Tyria against all the dragons.

It is possible that the Wyld Hunt is to kill all. It is possible that the PC will gain a new Wyld Hunt. The Pale Tree mentions, if you talk to her during the instances she says it is your Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan, that she believes it is your duty to save Tyria many times.

Specifically though:
Avatar of the Tree: You are destined to fight for Tyria’s future. Zhaitan will be the largest of many obstacles?

So yes, fully possible the Shadow of the Dragon is “all Elder Dragons” rather than “Zhaitan”.

Tamias.7059:

If we have dragon champion world bosses for Mordremoth (which we almost certainly will), then they’ll have the same appearance as the Shadow of the Dragon, because why bother creating another giant plant dragon model when you’ve already got one?

They’ll bother with a new model if Mordremoth’s dragons look nothing like the Shadow of the Dragon. It is fully possible that Mordremoth’s minions will look entirely different than standard vegetation. The closest we have to “Mordremoth minions” is in CoE, which could easily be reusing models for the sake of keeping its designs hidden.

What if, rather than being all full of plantlife, Mordremoth’s minions are more like the Stonewood trees of the Maguuma, or the Stalkers of GW1 – that is, more like dead plants than living ones? Or perhaps they’ll be more flamboyant, like the Eye of the North above-ground plant creatures – bright colors and flowers, a deception of niceness to contrast its poisonous nature.

We simply do not know what Mordremoth’s minions look like – despite your constant belief that we do.

And it isn’t like they don’t make new models for the Living World content, right? :p

Kalavier.1097:

At least this is better then the crazy theory crafting I saw ingame about the Shadow of the Dragon actually appearing as a new world megaboss with the jungle dragon awakening…

Well, there is that empty space in the current boss rotation, and iirc it’s in one of the “big” boss spots…

It’s one of the orange (middle tier on timer) boss slots – on par to Shatterer, Claw of Jormag, Taidha Covington, Megadestroyer, and Modniir Ulgoth.

The Jungle Wurm in Caledon Forest and the Avatars of Blight are likely to be dragon
minions. I seem to remember an NPC saying that they came from a malign force that was much worse than the Nightmare Court, and the most obvious malign force with that power would be an Elder Dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Shiren.9532:

Is it possible that the conclusion that the Shadow of the Dragon is a representation of Zhaitan simply be a flawed conclusion from NPC PoV?

Completely so, but unlikely that the Pale Tree would make such a blunder, or the PC wouldn’t mention s/he felt his/her Wyld Hunt wasn’t complete to Caithe at the end of the PS.

Yes, makes sense with 2nd argument concerning PC feeling its Wyld Hunt is done, but as for the Pale Tree making a blunder of such proportions, that could be seen as a result of being “blinded” by Mordremoth’s corruption – that the true nature of the Shadow of the Dragon wasn’t revealed. It was faked to take the guise of Zhaitan although Mordremoth was behind it?
But yes, I agree it seems most likely to be Zhaitan and not going to change as result of further story development due to both of these arguments.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We simply do not know what Mordremoth’s minions look like – despite your constant belief that we do.

And it isn’t like they don’t make new models for the Living World content, right? :p

I seriously hope they will continue to do this, we need more variation in the mob bestiary

ANet don’t seem to lack resources for creating new models. I would be surprised if they re-used models for Mordremoths champions. The champions don’t even have to resemble dragons, or at least not all of them. Some sort of giant earth and plant based behemoths wouldn’t be surprising.

There is no reason that the dragon in the dream couldn’t be a representation of Zhaitan, that was set loose by the Nightmare court. The nightmare court want to provoke the Sylvari into action. Giving “weak” Sylvari a taste of dragons, to “toughen them up” fits their motives and methods.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Kalavier.1097:

At least this is better then the crazy theory crafting I saw ingame about the Shadow of the Dragon actually appearing as a new world megaboss with the jungle dragon awakening…

Well, there is that empty space in the current boss rotation, and iirc it’s in one of the “big” boss spots…

From a purely technical stand point copy pasting a model is a lot easier than creating a new one. Using the existing model means they’d only have to focus on some animation and attacks. So I think its likely.

Wanderer.3248:

ANet don’t seem to lack resources for creating new models. I would be surprised if they re-used models for Mordremoths champions. The champions don’t even have to resemble dragons, or at least not all of them. Some sort of giant earth and plant based behemoths wouldn’t be surprising.

Yes, but resources are still finite, the time spent on a new model could also be spent somewhere else.

But usually for highlighted bosses and the like they don’t re-used models.

I mean, with the Molten Alliance alone they made 6 brand new models (3 charr, 3 dredge), when they clearly didn’t have to (could have done the typical “stick CoF/SE armor onto them” like they did with the mooks).

Unless there actually is a connection between the Shadow of the Dragon and Mordremoth, in that it is one of his dragon champions, then it is highly unlikely to be utilizing the same model. Since they can use the same frame and animations as the other dragon enemies (Shadow of the Dragon, Tequatl, Shatterer, Claw of Jormag, and the various risen dragons seen throughout the PS and Arah dungeon), a new skin (or model if you prefer) wouldn’t be much work.