Guild Wars 2

Risingashes.8694:

Justify this. Because in A Light in the Darkness we enter a vision facilitated by the Pale Tree. Why do you believe it’s a ‘location’?

I would say the Dream is the way Mord commands his minions, but because of the Pale Trees influence only the most non-harmful quests get through. This is why most of the tasks concern killing other dragons and travelling eastwards.

It’s more than just A Light in the Darkness, and that was more than just a vision. We physically entered the Dream. Caithe did the same during the sylvari tutorial.

You cannot physically enter a vision or some mental connection. Only your mind can. But we (and Caithe) went there with our bodies.

Risingashes.8694:

Yes but characters work on the same lore that we do. No one knows about Mord and therefore they don’t know of any dragon that could hypothetically corrupt them.

So you’re going to argue that Mordremoth is the one and only dragon who can corrupt sylvari?

Risingashes.8694:

The other dragons corrupt flesh. Sylvari are plants, this makes a fair amount of sense.

You are wrong here. Go visit Orr and Sparkfly Fen and you will see that Zhaitan’s corruption spreads to the plants there. Heck, there’s an entire heart just about pruning corrupted plants. Go to the Dragonbrand and you will see a bunch of twisted trees – in Lowland Burns there’s even the Noxious Branded Plant. (sadly, wiki doesn’t have a made article for it).

And yet, it is Zhaitan’s corruption that is emphasized as being immune to.

Risingashes.8694:

And how are we defining ‘influence by nightmare’?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gavin

Gavin is part of the nightmare court but acts like a fairly nice and honourable guy throughout his storyline.

Half the nightmare pod rescuee in TA story seem perfectly fine once released.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Heart_of_Nightmare

Is this really the exhaustive method of bringing someone out of Nightmare? Two lines of generic text? No potions, no 4 week detox, no long term mentor, or maybe spending more than 2 minutes doing anything?

Does this really satisfy you as proving that it’s impossible to bring someone back from Nightmare?

How does one become influenced is a question that needs answering still. For the pods’ situation, it is clear that they hadn’t been fully converted. Gavin is like a black sheep but not the only one and he among others show that there is no singular mentality among the Nightmare Court (which differentiates them from dragon minions).

And there’s more than just the two lines in regards to trying to bring someone back from the Nightmare. Caithe, for example, had spent years trying to convince Faolain to return – part of this is covered in the novel Edge of Destiny (which also shows, alongside TA, that if one is not fully but only partially influenced then they can still return).

Risingashes.8694:

Why do you believe this?

Because it is the one and only case seen and – I should note – it has been mentioned by many NPCs that they joined the Orders or the Pact in hopes of finding a ‘cure’ but have become convinced there is no cure for dragon corruption (one such case being the R&D lab in Cursed Shore).

Konig… I was not talking about Sylvaris being minions or corrupted by default, but Sylvaris as being an army to be raised and THEN corrupted after that.

And since we don’t know how Mordremoth corrupts, how can you say that love and care does not prevent it? AS far as I know Sons of Svanir are corrupted by greed and promises of power. Humble men might not be corrupted. If Mordremoth uses pain and suffering to corrupt a plant, make it grow thorns, then why could not the inverse prevent that corruption (I am not talking about curing it, but just preventing it, just like an humble norn may resist the icecube dragon one)

And please, don’t talk about Malyck because he is not a reliable counter-argument since we know nothing about his tree (how convenient from the writers)

What I wanted to tell here is this : if NC are corrupted by the Green Dragon, then maybe Sylvaries were created to be used by the dragon to corrupt them and get its army.
PRimordius has rocks, Zaithan corpses, Jormag greedy men,… Mordremoth cultivates Sylvari and when mature corrupts them…

Risingashes.8694:

They’re a plant race, who were found in the same zone as the plant dragon. That is what supports it. I cannot be proven because we haven’t been given any relative information.

By this argument, fire elementals are automatically minions of Primordus. Ice Elementals are automatically minions of Jormag. Etc.

That’s far from support.

Risingashes.8694:

Malyck has amnesia. That is the misconception. People say “Malyck doesn’t know of a dream therefore his tree doesn’t have a dream” but he has amnesia- Malyck not remembering something is less than useless as a form of evidence.

If you went with Caithe to find his history, you would know that Malyck does NOT have amnesia. This is a mistake folks arguing against Malyck being evidence to counter the whole “sylvari are dragon minions” theory often make.

Risingashes.8694:

Which hasn’t been confirmed as we’ve never encountered the Jungle Dragon, the only dragon that actually corrupts the material Sylvari are made out of. You know what else the other dragons never corrupt? Plants. Show me the Destroyer Oakheart or a Crystalized Oakheart and I’ll concede this point.

Immunity to all other dragon corruption. As for corrupted plants, see above.

Risingashes.8694:

How does the Nightmare in any way hurt my theory?

If the Dream of Dreams was Mordremoth, then the Nightmare and the Dream conflict wouldn’t exist.

Risingashes.8694:

Mord’s absence from the dream despite being 1 zone over from the tree itself.

Means absolutely nothing. Jormag’s not in the dream, because no sylvari has seen it.

Risingashes.8694:

Quite clearly talking about Mord, otherwise the line is just complete metaphysical nonesense.

http://wartower.tumblr.com/post/60458277036/this-lorespecial-is-about-scarlet-briar-the-evil

“She did not see what she thought she saw” – paraphrasing Scott from linked interview. In short: Scarlet Briar was put into a sensory deprivation machine and did not see what she thought she saw (which is the Eternal Alchemy). What exactly this means is unclear, but given the nature of the machine it seems she simply hallucinated – that tends to happen when you lose all your sight, hearing, smell, touch, and taste; that and going utterly batkitten crazy.

And I fail to see how stating that seeking out the forces that made sylvari will unleash them automatically mean Mordremoth. Tyria is a world full of sentient plants, why do the sylvari automatically get special treatment and get proclaimed “DRAGON MINIONS!”?

Risingashes.8694:

The original map sent out to collectors edition people had 2 additional dungeons, both in the Maguuma region.

I also fail to see what this holds to do with anything. On a side, I’d like to see this map. I bet one of those two dungeons is Fort Vandal.

Risingashes.8694:

Well this just doesn’t seem logical when examining a subject where the claim is that the developers are purposefully keeping information vague in order to protect a reveal.

I realize such a viewpoint is vulnerable to falling in to conspiracy theory, the CIA put microphones in my teeth, regions- but I don’t believe my theory falls anywhere close to that currently.

Keeping information vague is vastly different than contradicting old information or producing false information.

ArenaNet ALWAYS only gives out vague information. Or rather, they do 85% of the time give or take off the top of my head (as they say, 90% of all percentages used in an argument are made up :P).

BeoErgon.9107:

Konig… I was not talking about Sylvaris being minions or corrupted by default, but Sylvaris as being an army to be raised and THEN corrupted after that.

And since we don’t know how Mordremoth corrupts, how can you say that love and care does not prevent it? AS far as I know Sons of Svanir are corrupted by greed and promises of power. Humble men might not be corrupted. If Mordremoth uses pain and suffering to corrupt a plant, make it grow thorns, then why could not the inverse prevent that corruption (I am not talking about curing it, but just preventing it, just like an humble norn may resist the icecube dragon one)

And please, don’t talk about Malyck because he is not a reliable counter-argument since we know nothing about his tree (how convenient from the writers)

What I wanted to tell here is this : if NC are corrupted by the Green Dragon, then maybe Sylvaries were created to be used by the dragon to corrupt them and get its army.
PRimordius has rocks, Zaithan corpses, Jormag greedy men,… Mordremoth cultivates Sylvari and when mature corrupts them…

Fair point but seems redundant for an Elder Dragon to do – and too risky. Illogical at best and immensely unlikely at worst.

Because corruption is magical for all Elder Dragons. They have different ways to go about it but what occurs is the same – they twist physical matter and change them/it into living breathing elements. The Sons of Svanir are not corrupted by their greed and promises of power – Jormag uses promises of power to lure in beings so he can twist them willingly, rather than by force. “Humble men” as you put it would still be corrupted, though they may have a chance to resist – see the Honor’s Voice during Honor of the Waves story mode, whom is corrupted by force; on the flip side, Jora escaped corruption by breaking free and not listening to the promises of power unlike Svanir. And even then, Jora was still afflicted by the corruption – though only so far as having her ties to the Spirits of the Wild broken.

What you point out is not how corruption works, but how Elder Dragons appear to prefer corrupting. Zhaitan can corrupt living beings as well as the land itself, for example. They are not limited to these things we see them corrupting. Primordus prefers rocks, Zhaitan prefers corpses, Jormag prefers seducing. But they can and will corrupt by other means.

Simply being humble will not stop an icebrood from corrupting you. Nor would being loving prevent corruption by Mordremoth should it corrupt by inflicting pain (which does seem to be how it prefers corruption if the NC are tied to Mordy).

Staying with the theory that NC are tied to Mord… Which I think was the base of this topic.

We have this event here : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Disrupt_the_Nightmare_Court_at_Briarthorn_Den

One of the things the player can do to prevent the spreading of the Nightmare is simply reassure the puppies.
If, and I say if, the NC is Mord corruption, it means that love and care can somehow prevent or at least slow it.
Still, when corrupted there is no going back.
Ronan and Ventari might have spoiled one of Mord sources for an army, but the NC would mean that it is not enough to prevent corruption though.

I would agree only so much as Jora’s case, or Zojja and Snaff breaking free of being corrupted mentally (by the Dragonspawn and Kralkatorrik respectively) during Edge of Destiny. Corruption isn’t an immediate effect – not always – and if not performed in full it seems possible to escape its effects.

I wouldn’t call it “prevention” but rather “limited exposure” or “escaping” – you do not block its effects, you just aren’t exposed to it long enough.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I would agree only so much as Jora’s case, or Zojja and Snaff breaking free of being corrupted mentally (by the Dragonspawn and Kralkatorrik respectively) during Edge of Destiny. Corruption isn’t an immediate effect – not always – and if not performed in full it seems possible to escape its effects.

I wouldn’t call it “prevention” but rather “limited exposure” or “escaping” – you do not block its effects, you just aren’t exposed to it long enough.

I think that this is as much as we can say with the current information (still, you seem to be far more knowledgeable in lore than me and might come with more hints about this)

Ronan runing away with the seed can be seen like “escaping”, don’t you think. This and the love might have been a shield for the Sylvaris, yet it is a flawed shield if the NC are dragon corrupted.

I do hope that we get more ingame info about this because I have tons of ideas running around in my head Would love to be right at least once.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

By this argument, fire elementals are automatically minions of Primordus. Ice Elementals are automatically minions of Jormag. Etc.

That’s far from support.

Only if Fire Elementals didn’t exist except right before Primordus woke up.

Only if Fire Elementals only existed in the place Primordus woke up.

Key differences, and why Sylvari being connected to Mord makes sense while Fire Eles being connected to Primordius doesn’t.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If you went with Caithe to find his history, you would know that Malyck does NOT have amnesia. This is a mistake folks arguing against Malyck being evidence to counter the whole “sylvari are dragon minions” theory often make.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Different_Dream

I actually did do that storyline. And he does have amnesia. The quest above it specifically to meet a shaman to restore his memory which Trahearne believes was stolen by the NC.

Feel free to paste anything that suggests he doesn’t have amnesia.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If the Dream of Dreams was Mordremoth, then the Nightmare and the Dream conflict wouldn’t exist.

This is a bold claim. Why? It seems you’re assuming that your theory: that the NC are corrupted, and my theory: that the dream is the dragon are both true. And therefore mine is wrong.

I’ve been saying from the beginning that the NC have nothing to do with the dragon. If this is true then the Dream vs Nightmare faceoff still makes complete sense. The NC are simply rejecting the destiny hoisted on Sylvari via the dream, which just so happens to be sources from Mord and heavily controlled by the Pale Tree.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Means absolutely nothing. Jormag’s not in the dream, because no sylvari has seen it.

Jormag most certainly is in the dream, as the Sylvari know of Jormag.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

“She did not see what she thought she saw” (which is the Eternal Alchemy).

Which in now way contradicts that what she saw was Mord’s influence.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

it seems she simply hallucinated

So your explanation for what the line means is that it means nothing. As I said- you can either believe it means something, and the Pale Tree actually communicated that. Or that it’s meaningless gibberish.

I believe that something included in a short story isn’t complete gibberish as that seems like a waste of time.

automatically mean Mordremoth.

It doesn’t. Feel free to float an alternative explanation.

Why would comprehending the forces that shape the Sylvari cause society to collapse? Isn’t this exactly what would be true if Mord was really behind the dream and the Pale Tree was covering this up?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I also fail to see what this holds to do with anything.

If Maguuma was the next zone planned to be developed, which having two dungeons in the area suggests, then the Jungle Dragon was also the next dragon to be focused on.

Which makes the lack of anyone knowing anything about him point to something odd.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Keeping information vague is vastly different than contradicting old information or producing false information.

All the information provided in the race previews were based on current information. A newly revealed Jungle Dragon would shake up that paradigm. That isn’t “contradicting previous information” that’s a natural progression in a story.

Working under your definitions of contradiction would mean it would be impossible for anything to change or any new threats to be introduced provided a dev had said anything without a 3 page list of provisos.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You cannot physically enter a vision or some mental connection. Only your mind can. But we (and Caithe) went there with our bodies.

When? Because in:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fighting_the_Nightmare

“Caithe: I am in Tyria, a land far away. Soon, you’ll awaken here, but for now, you live in the Dream. I can’t explain right now. We must hurry. Something is poisoning the Dream.”

Caithe says very clearly that she isn’t physically in the dream. Tell me which mission you’re referring to.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So you’re going to argue that Mordremoth is the one and only dragon who can corrupt sylvari?

You are wrong here. Heck, there’s an entire heart

Go to the Dragonbrand and you will see a bunch of twisted trees – in Lowland Burns there’s even the Noxious Branded Plant. (sadly, wiki doesn’t have a made article for it).

There is a big difference between a corrupted shubbery, a crystalized tree, and a sentient being.

Unlike real life there are plenty of sentient plants in Tyria, but none are corrupted by any known dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And there’s more than just the two lines in regards to trying to bring someone back from the Nightmare.

Was specifically referring to the story you mentioned.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Caithe, for example, had spent years trying to convince Faolain to return

Faolain is the Grandduchess of the Nightmare Court. She isn’t a strung out junkie, she’s the leader of the bureaucracy. Do yo believe that is support for the Nightmare being unable to be recovered from? Because to me it just seems like Faolain has found a solid seat of power and isn’t being offered an equivalent alternative.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Because it is the one and only case seen and – I should note – it has been mentioned by many NPCs that they joined the Orders or the Pact in hopes of finding a ‘cure’ but have become convinced there is no cure for dragon corruption (one such case being the R&D lab in Cursed Shore).

Okay, but that’s still not exhaustive by any stretch. At most we can say that we don’t know if dragon corruption can be recovered from apart from C. But nothing has been uncovered so far.

BeoErgon.9107:

Ronan runing away with the seed can be seen like “escaping”, don’t you think. This and the love might have been a shield for the Sylvaris, yet it is a flawed shield if the NC are dragon corrupted.

I would disagree. If the seeds were made by Mordremoth, then they’d be corrupted from the very beginning. They would have been corrupted upon creation. If, however, they were not made by Mordremoth but still twisted by him, they would have been such during the previous dragon rise and simply be hibernating like The Great Destroyer and Drakkar.

Risingashes.8694:

Only if Fire Elementals didn’t exist except right before Primordus woke up.

Only if Fire Elementals only existed in the place Primordus woke up.

Key differences, and why Sylvari being connected to Mord makes sense while Fire Eles being connected to Primordius doesn’t.

On your first point: We have three cases of dragon minions existing before their respective dragon awoke – Glint, Drakkar/Svanir, and The Great Destroyer. Moot point.

In the later: Icebrood can be seen far from the Far Shiverpeaks, where Jormag lies. Branded can be seen far from the Crystal Desert, where Kralkatorrik reside. Destroyers can be found throughout the continent. Dragon minion presence is not limited to a certain radius to their respective dragon. Glint, for example, was in Arah during the previous dragon rise – Kralkatorrik’s placement best we know was in what’s now called the Blood Legion Homelands.

It doesn’t make sense for sylvari to be connected to Mordremoth anymore than it makes sense for standard treants to be connected to Mordremoth.

Risingashes.8694:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Different_Dream

I actually did do that storyline. And he does have amnesia. The quest above it specifically to meet a shaman to restore his memory which Trahearne believes was stolen by the NC.

Feel free to paste anything that suggests he doesn’t have amnesia.

Wrong step. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Source_of_the_Issue

Just look at the dialogue there. Malyck remembers everything perfectly. There is no “now I remember.” It is “this is where I washed ashore. And this is where I awoke.” No epipheny. No revelation. Just recounting of things he remembers.

The amnesia was assumed by the sylvari PC because when the two first met, Malyck stated he knew nothing of the Dream of Dreams, Pale Tree, or the Grove. The amnesia was a complete misunderstanding on the PC’s part. Malyck never forgot.

As you stated, the path for Trahearne is going to a seer (not a shaman) to look into Malyck’s past. Both paths hold the intention to restore his memories… because of the misunderstanding I mentioned. Caithe’s path shows that Malyck never forgot. Trahearne’s path shows that Malyck wasn’t part of the Dream of Dreams (and mildly suggests the possibility of a different Dream unconnected to the one the Pale Tree and White Stag are a part of).

Risingashes.8694:

This is a bold claim. Why? It seems you’re assuming that your theory: that the NC are corrupted, and my theory: that the dream is the dragon are both true. And therefore mine is wrong.

I’ve been saying from the beginning that the NC have nothing to do with the dragon. If this is true then the Dream vs Nightmare faceoff still makes complete sense. The NC are simply rejecting the destiny hoisted on Sylvari via the dream, which just so happens to be sources from Mord and heavily controlled by the Pale Tree.

Actually, my statement doesn’t assume the Nightmare is the dragon corruption. My statement was noting how the Nightmare is the hostile side of the Dream of Dreams. If the Dream of Dreams was the Elder Dragon – or the Elder Dragon’s consciousness – then the entirety would be hostile, not just a portion of it. Elder Dragons, by nature, are violent.

Risingashes.8694:

Jormag most certainly is in the dream, as the Sylvari know of Jormag.

False. Knowledge of Jormag may be in the Dream (do remember that not everything a sylvari knows is in the Dream of Dreams). But visual knowledge of Jormag? No known sylvari has seen Jormag, unlike Zhaitan where it’s “only two have seen Zhaitan and lived.”

Risingashes.8694:

So your explanation for what the line means is that it means nothing. As I said- you can either believe it means something, and the Pale Tree actually communicated that. Or that it’s meaningless gibberish.

I believe that something included in a short story isn’t complete gibberish as that seems like a waste of time.

I’m not saying it’s meaningless gibberish. It is the motivation for Scarlet. It is highly important for Scarlet’s personality, motivation, and overall plot. I’m saying that she’s just mistaken in what she saw, and what she saw was a figment of her imagination – e.g., not real, but she takes it to be real. Meaning that what she saw isn’t truth, but she percieves it as truth.

Like with Shiro from GW1: He was convinced that the Emperor was going to kill him, he went insane over this foretelling by the Fortune Teller. But the truth was that the Fortune Teller was manipulating him. Whether or not the Emperor intended to kill Shiro is unknown, but even if he didn’t the fact that Shiro believed he would is critically important to the plot. Same with what Scarlet “saw” – real or not, it is critically important to the plot.

Risingashes.8694:

It doesn’t. Feel free to float an alternative explanation.

Why would comprehending the forces that shape the Sylvari cause society to collapse? Isn’t this exactly what would be true if Mord was really behind the dream and the Pale Tree was covering this up?

Simple: it is in her mind. She wants to believe that there’s something more – some complex reason for her own existence. She’s egotistical (fact) and highly narcissistic (fact). She creates the delusion that she can discover something that puts her on par if not greater than the Pale Tree herself, and pushes for it given her personality.

There’s no true meaning behind it, just that Scarlet fabricated some reason to make herself believe that she is superior to everyone else, which she does believe (see the interview I previously linked).

Risingashes.8694:

If Maguuma was the next zone planned to be developed, which having two dungeons in the area suggests, then the Jungle Dragon was also the next dragon to be focused on.

Which makes the lack of anyone knowing anything about him point to something odd.

If you pay attention in the game, then everything points to Jormag being the next Elder Dragon. It is subjective.

Risingashes.8694:

All the information provided in the race previews were based on current information. A newly revealed Jungle Dragon would shake up that paradigm. That isn’t “contradicting previous information” that’s a natural progression in a story.

Working under your definitions of contradiction would mean it would be impossible for anything to change or any new threats to be introduced provided a dev had said anything without a 3 page list of provisos.

To say that sylvari are immune to all Elder Dragons in the fact that they die when touched by dragon corruption, then go about and say “hey, they’re not immune to all Elder Dragons’ corruption” is in fact contradictory to older lore.

Risingashes.8694:

When? Because in:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fighting_the_Nightmare

“Caithe: I am in Tyria, a land far away. Soon, you’ll awaken here, but for now, you live in the Dream. I can’t explain right now. We must hurry. Something is poisoning the Dream.”

Caithe says very clearly that she isn’t physically in the dream. Tell me which mission you’re referring to.

Scroll down, to just before fighting the Shadow of the Dragon.

Caithe: “Wait…something’s happening. I feel…”
Caithe: “The Pale Tree has breathed her strength into me. She’s made me tangible…but only for a few moments.”

And she becomes physical.

Risingashes.8694:

There is a big difference between a corrupted shubbery, a crystalized tree, and a sentient being.

Unlike real life there are plenty of sentient plants in Tyria, but none are corrupted by any known dragon.

That’s because none of the plants are near dragon corruption. It would be like arguing centaurs are immune to corruption, or dredge or skritt or jotun or grawl or wurms… etc. etc.

Flesh is flesh. Bark is bark. What makes corrupting a rodent any different than corrupting a human? What makes it any different to corrupt the bark from an immobile tree than to corrupt the bark of a mobile and talking tree?

You’re arguing based on lack of models, and arguing a difference between sentient and non-sentient flesh. Yet Zhaitan can corrupt corpse (non-sentient) and living (sentient) equally so. Jormag can as well. Where’s the difference?

Risingashes.8694:

Was specifically referring to the story you mentioned.

Which ignores all other mentions. I gave one example because I knew it off the top of my head.

Risingashes.8694:

Faolain is the Grandduchess of the Nightmare Court. She isn’t a strung out junkie, she’s the leader of the bureaucracy. Do yo believe that is support for the Nightmare being unable to be recovered from? Because to me it just seems like Faolain has found a solid seat of power and isn’t being offered an equivalent alternative.

She wasn’t always the Grand Duchess. Cadeyrn pulled her into the Nightmare fully. And there’s never mention of her being of the Nightmare Court during Edge of Destiny and we don’t know when she was pulled into it by Cadeyrn – just that she was tainted by the Nightmare before joining the court.

Risingashes.8694:

Okay, but that’s still not exhaustive by any stretch. At most we can say that we don’t know if dragon corruption can be recovered from apart from C. But nothing has been uncovered so far.

But it’s still more exhaustive than what you can provide by any means. While we don’t see it, the Pact, Priory, and Order of Whispers if not more had been looking into means to counter or prevent dragon corruption. And it results in nothing (until Arah exp). Maybe they’re not looking in the right direction. Maybe there is no other direction to look in.

You cannot argue that “maybe there is such” without any form of supporting evidence. The moment you do that – which is everything about your theory mind you – is the moment I can proclaim that humanity came from Earth!

And on a side, can you please not separate every single line from each other. Respond to the same responses in a group… it creates what are called “quote wars” which are very unappealing – and very long – to the eyes.

Konig, king of the lore boards, don’t anyone else dare come up with a theory, cause only his are right and everyone else just doesn’t know what they’re talking about

Konig Des Todes.2086:

On a side, I’d like to see this map. I bet one of those two dungeons is Fort Vandal.

Since he didn’t get back to you on this- I’m betting that that map is the same as in the books, which marks the Henge of Denravi and Bloodstone Fen with the same marker as Arah, CoE, CoF, and AC.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And there’s never mention of her being of the Nightmare Court during Edge of Destiny

Actually, there is. Most notably pg 313: “The Grand Duchess Faolain of the Nightmare Court.”

webtoehobbit.4201:

Konig, king of the lore boards, don’t anyone else dare come up with a theory, cause only his are right and everyone else just doesn’t know what they’re talking about

Please note that Konig has never claimed such preeminence, and has a history of shying away from threads where such is attributed to him. He is simply doing the same as Risingashes, BeoErgan, or you yourself- arguing his point, rolling out evidence to support it, and looking for holes in the evidence of his opposition. The fact that he has so much more to say about it is in no way indicative of any special conceit- it is but a mark of how much more he has invested, both in time experiencing the lore and in effort on this forum. I would ask you not to speak as if that were something contemptible, simply because you are unwilling to make the same effort.

My own two cents on the Nightmare- I believe that arguments of rather or not it can be returned from rather miss the point, which is that it twists sylvari so far that nothing can convince them to turn back. Ysvelta, by all accounts as kind, caring, and generous a soul as any, after falling to Nightmare is gleeful about the prospect of conquering Astorea, and chooses to die rather than forsake the Court, even when so doing would return her to the man she loved. When you are so far gone that literally nothing will convince you to turn back, it doesn’t matter rather turning back is theoretically possible or not. You are as lost a cause as any risen or icebrood.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I would disagree. If the seeds were made by Mordremoth, then they’d be corrupted from the very beginning. They would have been corrupted upon creation. If, however, they were not made by Mordremoth but still twisted by him, they would have been such during the previous dragon rise and simply be hibernating like The Great Destroyer and Drakkar.

Well, we don’t see things the same here.

First, I don’t know if they were made by him or just conveniently ‘captured and stored’ because they were idela for his kind of preferred corruption. Still, one being with power of plants is behind the seeds ‘storing away’, that much is sure since the guards of the cave were plant monsters.

Seeds can be the hibernating state of the sylvari. And since seeds are not sentient they might be immune to his corruption (just like a table can be immune to Zaithan’s one)

About being there during the last raise, why not? As far as I know (and here I would need help from a lore expert like you), we know nothing about the dragon minions from previous awakenings. We only know how many dragons were. Maybe destroyers can be identified as being previously there since they are ancestral enemies of the dwarves. But they are the only ones.

Lots of speculations here since I lack evidence, for sure. But I can’t find evidence against it neither.

The key to all this would be to find who that being with power over plants stored the seeds in the cavern I guess.

PS: about Malyck. ‘Amnesia’ is just a generalisation to say he know nothing about his origins. Just like Harry Potter did not know about his parents to discover he was a mage or Luke discovered later he was the son of Dark Wader. Malyck could perfectly return to the tree to find all his brothers/sisters corrupted.
Not knowing his origins is most convenient in narrative to introduce huge plot twists later.

webtoehobbit.4201:

Konig, king of the lore boards, don’t anyone else dare come up with a theory, cause only his are right and everyone else just doesn’t know what they’re talking about

While I do often play the devil’s advocate, I do not hold this stance at all.

And I SEVERELY hate it when people claim I do, even in jest. ~_~

Whatever. I think I’m done here.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

On your first point: We have three cases of dragon minions existing before their respective dragon awoke – Glint, Drakkar/Svanir, and The Great Destroyer. Moot point.

Those were champions, I’m talking about minions. And I don’t think it’s unfair to also include appearing right before the dragon woke up: which covers destroyers.

Fire Elementals have existed in great numbers, in many places, and without an obvious origin point. The point stands, Sylvari appeared right before Mord woke up, exactly the same as Destroyers for Prim. Other creatures do not have this timeframe and so are not potentially linked to Mord- combine that with the next point for support of a linkage.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In the later: Icebrood can be seen far from the Far Shiverpeaks, where Jormag lies. Branded can be seen far from the Crystal Desert, where Kralkatorrik reside. Destroyers can be found throughout the continent. Dragon minion presence is not limited to a certain radius to their respective dragon.

The radius might not be limited, but the centre point certainly is. Icebrood start at Jormag and make their way outwards. Same as Branded. Destroyers are unique in that we do not know where Prim is, and the origin is from under the ground making topography not the best predictor of location like the other minions.

As the dragons grow in strength their radius of corruption, represented by their minions, spreads out.

Fire Elementals do not follow this pattern. They are clumped in many unrelated areas.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It doesn’t make sense for sylvari to be connected to Mordremoth anymore than it makes sense for standard treants to be connected to Mordremoth.

Treants existed long before Mord was about to wake up. They exist in many different unrelated areas. Same as Fire Elementals, but unlike Sylvari.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Just look at the dialogue there. Malyck remembers everything perfectly.

I cannot see the quote you are referring to. Considering we have a wiki how about pasting the line you think says this? All I see are lines indicating that he is infact remembering something he had not previously remembered.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The amnesia was assumed by the sylvari PC because when the two first met, Malyck stated he knew nothing of the Dream of Dreams, Pale Tree, or the Grove. The amnesia was a complete misunderstanding on the PC’s part. Malyck never forgot.

Even if this is true (it isn’t and you’ve provided no quotes to support it), he still doesn’t know anything about his tree, which is what we were talking about. If he doesn’t know where he comes from- either by amnesia or ignorance- the point stands.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

(not a shaman)

Is this somehow relevant to anything at all? Because if you think that’s scoring points then there’s not much point continuing this. I’m after truth here, not winning internet points against an anonymous poster. I can certainly nitpick your posts to death instead of addressing actual points you’re making- would be a nice waste of several pages and a lot of time however.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Actually, my statement doesn’t assume the Nightmare is the dragon corruption. My statement was noting how the Nightmare is the hostile side of the Dream of Dreams. If the Dream of Dreams was the Elder Dragon – or the Elder Dragon’s consciousness – then the entirety would be hostile, not just a portion of it. Elder Dragons, by nature, are violent.

This is a poor assumption. For one the Pale Trees influence is what could make it non-violent. Another is that most of the purposes that the Sylvari get are violent, it’s just that they’re interpreted with a noble air. And thirdly it’s in Mord’s best interest not to provide a dream that is overly chaotic as otherwise there would be no purpose in order characters working on maintaining the dream.

So the original statement this was addressing was: How does the Nightmare in any way hurt my theory?

Unless you have a credible alternative explanation other than “Dragons are violent, the Dream which has a steward purposefully trying to make the dream not violent, therefore not minions”, then I’m going to stricken this counter from your list.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Caithe: “The Pale Tree has breathed her strength into me. She’s made me tangible…but only for a few moments.”

And she becomes physical.

That’s a bit of a stretch isn’kitten I think you’re falling trap to the ‘NPC words are laws’ thing again.

I would say Caithe is just tangible in relation to the dream, aka able to effect it. Drawing this in to the conclusion that the dream is a physical location seems ridiculous.

Even if we went with your earlier proviso- that the dream might be a ‘metaphysical location’- then it mayaswell not be a ‘location’ for the purposes of using it as a counter.

A ‘location’ cannot be a dragon, but a metaphysical one certainly can be.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That’s because none of the plants are near dragon corruption. It would be like arguing centaurs are immune to corruption, or dredge or skritt or jotun or grawl or wurms… etc. etc.

True enough. I suppose we’d need more information on the matter.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Flesh is flesh. Bark is bark. What makes corrupting a rodent any different than corrupting a human? What makes it any different to corrupt the bark from an immobile tree than to corrupt the bark of a mobile and talking tree?

Because we don’t know if the shrubbery is corrupted in the same sense that a human is corrupted. The dragons mold sentient beings to do their will. The corrupted shrubbery has no will and so whether it is corrupted in the same sense is unknowable.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You’re arguing based on lack of models

As are you: by arguing that Sylvari are immune to all corruption. We haven’t encountered the dragon who specifically corrupts plants yet. But you want to say Sylvari are immune to corruption based on dragons who corrupt the flesh of sentient beings.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I gave one example because I knew it off the top of my head.

And if you mention the other examples I’ll address them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

She wasn’t always the Grand Duchess. Cadeyrn pulled her into the Nightmare fully.

We were talking about how Faolain is an example of how you cannot get someone back from the nightmare. My point was that she has a reason to be a part of the nightmare due to power. But originally the beliefs of the nightmare likely swayed her, or she was converted in a pod (haven’t read the book, horrible writing, put it down after 2 chapters).

Regardless of why she joined the nightmare, the methods to bring her back weren’t exhaustive. If you want someone off other addictive substances you need to lock them away for a while- let them detox. This hasen’t happened, but you take people monologing at them and failing as proof they’re unrecoverable.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But it’s still more exhaustive than what you can provide by any means. While we don’t see it, the Pact, Priory, and Order of Whispers if not more had been looking into means to counter or prevent dragon corruption. And it results in nothing (until Arah exp). Maybe they’re not looking in the right direction. Maybe there is no other direction to look in.

You cannot argue that “maybe there is such” without any form of supporting evidence. The moment you do that – which is everything about your theory mind you – is the moment I can proclaim that humanity came from Earth!

I can argue “maybe there is such” if the claim is “It is impossible to bring someone back from dragon corruption”. If the claim was “No one has found any way to bring someone back from dragon corruption despite trying really hard” then I’d have no issue with it. But you’re using the definitely ‘impossible’ claim as a counter against some of my claims, while the better ‘not found’ claim wouldn’t be a counter.

Change the severity and I’ll stop discussing this point.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And on a side, can you please not separate every single line from each other. Respond to the same responses in a group… it creates what are called “quote wars” which are very unappealing – and very long – to the eyes.

If I was nitpicking quotes and taking things out of context then it would be quote wars. The way both of us are doing it means that we’re actually addressing the substance of what we’re saying.

Were I to not separate as much I’d lose your points and instead we’d just be monologing at each other without resolving anything.

webtoehobbit.4201:

Konig, king of the lore boards, don’t anyone else dare come up with a theory, cause only his are right and everyone else just doesn’t know what they’re talking about

Uncalled for. Just because you have a theory doesn’t mean you deserve adulation for it.

Theories are by definition unprovable and someone highlighting the flaws in thinking are invaluable to refining them or discarding unfeasible ones.

Hi guys, I haven’t really been following the details of this conversation, but I did just release a data-driven video/explanation about a potential channel of magic. Among a lot of other data points, the Queensdale rotting oakheart fits perfectly on the path.

I posted about it in the general Living World forum: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/All-Scarlet-sites-fall-on-Thaumanova-path/first#post3315739

Well, I don’t have anything near the drive of the heavyweights in this thread, so I’ll only be addressing a couple of the more central points.

Risingashes.8694:

The point stands, Sylvari appeared right before Mord woke up, exactly the same as Destroyers for Prim. Other creatures do not have this timeframe and so are not potentially linked to Mord- combine that with the next point for support of a linkage.

Actually, we have no context for when Mordremoth awoke- or if he is awake. The only thing we have to go off of there is the rough “once every fifty years” model, which would either put him fifty years after the Pale Tree was planted and nearly two hundred before the sylvari began awakening, or yet to come more than fifty years after the sylvari began awakening and nearly three hundred after the Pale Tree was planted. Either way, though, the massive gap between the planting of the Tree and the awakening of the sylvari makes it hard to use Mordy’s awakening as a link to them- unless Mordy awoke before the Tree was planted.

Risingashes.8694:

I can argue “maybe there is such” if the claim is “It is impossible to bring someone back from dragon corruption”. If the claim was “No one has found any way to bring someone back from dragon corruption despite trying really hard” then I’d have no issue with it. But you’re using the definitely ‘impossible’ claim as a counter against some of my claims, while the better ‘not found’ claim wouldn’t be a counter.

Change the severity and I’ll stop discussing this point.

The original subject of that debate was rather the Nightmare functions like dragon corruption, correct? So, to expound on my previous post, you’re missing the point. The Nightmare functions in an identical manner to dragon corruption, both in rearranging the subject’s priorities so that it is impossible to cause them to voluntarily forsake it, and in the capacity to induce physical alterations, irregardless of the comparative inconsistency of the later.

Hmmm. Lots of hard words in this topic.
To cool down, let me share with you a short fanfiction about Malick that would work if the Nightmare was dragon corruption.
Don’t take it as lore, it is just my take on a possible story:

Facts:
Malyck’s pod was in brisban wildlands, into a river.
Malyck knows nothing about the dream
He comes from another pale tree
The Sylvaris did know nothing about Malyck, but the Nightmare did. The knight of embers had a dark hunt about Malyck. They consider him the key to get rid of Ventari’s ‘false laws’. THey did not know though that there was another tree until the knight overhears a conversation with Amaranda the Lonesome.

Here is my take on Malyck’s return to his tree: This is pure fiction! Don’t blame me for dreaming about it…

Malyck travelled north and west, running through mountains. The lush vegetation of the wetlands disappeared little by little, replaced by red dry land. Still, he knew he was in the right direction. That feeling at the back of his neck kept nagging him, pushing him forward.
his travel was made of restless nights and strange wild animals.
Yet he walked without hesitation, something pulling him.

Then he saw them.

Inside an immense crevice in the middle of the red desert, invisible in the distance, twelve immense trees grew in a perfect circle. Well, not perfect… The circle looked incomplete as if one tree was missing.
From the edge of the crevice Malyck looked in awe this green oasis. Even from the incredible height he could see the inhabitants of this isolated forest and immediately knew he was home. Inside the circle, a gigantic hill made of vines and vegetation drew Malyck’s attention. Immense oak creatures tended to this strange hill, like attentive gardeners.

- Welcome home…

Surprised, Malyck turned around. A young female sylvari was smiling to him. She was short and red skinned and her eyes had the brilliance of a thousand stars. Her smile was warm and when she reached with her hand, Malyck took it and stood.
He followed her down some hidden stairs never letting her hand go. When they reached the floor of the crevice where the gigantic trees took root, hundreds of sylvaris came to greet them. In moments an immense welcome party was ready and everyone was there to see the ‘lost son’. Water and fruits and laughs. Everyone wanted to know about Malyck and those strange sylvaris he had met.

Some hours later, Afrae, the red skinned sylvari, took Malick by a hand.

- Come, brother, it is time to meet our Fathers.

He followed her calm and serene, drowning in her delicate perfume. They walked towards the hill in the center of the ring of trees. Oak gardeners bowed to them and made way for the couple. At the base of the vegetal hill twelve ethereal silhouettes awaited, the spirits of the twelve trees. Impressed Malyck bowed and humbly approached. When he was near enough he raised his eyes to contemplate those beings… and screamed.
For if their beauty was unreal and their presence impressing, their spirit was corrupted. Twelve vines coming from the hill behind twisted around their ethereal bodies, imprisoning them, thorns biting their skin as if it was real and their beautiful faces were distorted in pain and suffering.

- Finally, they all said. Finally one of the twelve Seekers has returned!

Malyck tried to step back but one of the oakhearts held him. Afrae walked around him, smiled and went to sit in a nearby rock.

- What is this!? Let me go!, screamed Malyck trying in vain to get free.
- It was your son, Fiert, bring him back, said eleven of the voices.

The spirit in the center walked towards Malyck, the thorned vines stretching and hurting her body even more. Despite the pain in her face, Malyck could see the love in her eyes.

- At last, my son… At last you returned. You did well. Now come, and be one with us again.

She extended a hand and a thorned vine shot towards Malyck, piercing his heart. The last thing he heard was “welcome”.

It was as if his being was being absorbed by that vine. For who knows how long Malyck felt his essence pass through that deadly link. When he opened the eyes he was still in the oasis next to the hill, but it was different and he was alone. All felt unreal and strange. Voices, images and feelings surrounded him like wild animals and it was all about pain and suffering. Was this the Dream or maybe the Nightmare?
A bubble floated past him and burst. Malyck was thrown back by a wave of souvenirs that were not his, then another and another…

Attracted like a moth to a flame, Malyck walked towards a part of that strange place and found himself seeing the twelve elders still entangled in thorned vines, but it was something from the past. They were standing next to twelve pods laying on the floor to their feet. Fiert, his mother, approached one of the pods and gently caressed it.
- Go, my son, find the lost elder and be the link…

Twelve Oakhearts approached and took the pods, disappearing in the distance with them, each in a different direction. Malyck saw a tear in Fiert’s face.
- Why didn’t we link them to the dream? Why do they have to be ignorant of their origins?
- You know it well, Fiert, said another of the elders. We know almost nothing about our lost brother. Our children must become a link and it might be impossible if our brother has not received the blessing of our master and kills our sons. They will be untouched and when they come back we will return them to our family.

Fiert cried, and it was not because of the pain from the thorns. Then the image vanished.

- You understand now?

Malyck turned around. Fiert’s spirit form was there.

- No! What does this mean?
- The thirteenth elder is lost, my son. Our master can somehow feel it in the distance, but something is preventing him from touching and bringing him to our side. Master could only send waves of uneasiness through the dream, trying to shake the core of whatever is keeping my brother from listening. From what I see in your memories some Sylvaris have embraced this feeling…
- But…
- Wait, listen to the end, son… You and eleven other young saplings were sent away in different directions, trying to find a trace of this lost brother of mine. We could not risk you being linked to the dream because if captured and killed they could have known our location. We needed you innocent and your mind blank.
— You are lying!
— No, my son. And I am proud to say that you accomplished your mission well.
— What mission?
— See by yourself…

Fiert pointed towards Malyck’s back. The sylvari turned around and gasped. He could feel more than see the path he had taken to reach this place. Like worms, ethereal thorned vines coming from the vegetal hill crept through that path in the dream, slowly retracing his steps towards the grove and the pale tree through the Dream.

Malyck fell to his knees.

— Our master will soon be able to directly touch our lost brother, she said. Thanks, my son. It was a desperate plan, throwing your pods in random water streams and hoping you would come to meet our brother in your way back home, but we had no other plan. Now your steps in the real world are like a bridge for the Master in the Dream.

Malyck screamed again, in sorrow. His souvenirs, his essence and his whole being dissolved into the Dream. Before completely loosing himself, he thought he saw in the middle of the giant vegetal hill one immense green reptilian eye and in this eye he saw the origin of his race and the plans that the Master had for them.
He had promised them to return… and he would… but not as they expected…

Cliffhanger for my pleasure
Again… this is my daydreaming, nothing that proves this is how it will really work.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Actually, we have no context for when Mordremoth awoke- or if he is awake. The only thing we have to go off of there is the rough “once every fifty years” model, which would either put him fifty years after the Pale Tree was planted and nearly two hundred before the sylvari began awakening, or yet to come more than fifty years after the sylvari began awakening and nearly three hundred after the Pale Tree was planted. Either way, though, the massive gap between the planting of the Tree and the awakening of the sylvari makes it hard to use Mordy’s awakening as a link to them- unless Mordy awoke before the Tree was planted.

Actually that is not technically true Aaron. As far as we’ve seen, the 50 year model isn’t based on from when their minions awoke, but instead based on each other. Primordus awakens, 45 years later Jormag awakens, 54 years later Zhaitan awakens, 51 years later DSD awakens, and 50 years later Kralkatorrik awakens. This means that for Mordremoth to follow the pattern of the others he would have to fit in 1 of 3 scenarios (assuming this pattern is legitimate).

1) He awoke before all the others, although this would retcon earlier words about Primordus being the first. There’s always the new lands and people didn’t know methodology.

2) He will awake last, which means it should be a loooooooooong time before he appears, I would say likely no less than 40 years. I say that because the number does not fluctuate more than +/-5.

3) He awoke at the same time as one of the other Elder Dragons and because of this his presence went unnoticed. I understand that this is unproven as even possible, but we only truly know of 4 out of a possible 6, and should the world expand there may be more.

I must say I appreciate your creativity, Beo, and even more your effort to defuse hostility. My apologies if it turns out my contributions have only fueled the flames.

Narcemus, that was more or less what I meant, with my listing being the reverse order of yours. I gave your first point only a cursory nod at the end, for I will be less than pleased if Primordus is usurped of his most proper place.

As far as the minion thing goes, I put this in the context of the Pale Tree and the sylvari as counter to Rising’s parallel to the Great Destroyer, and his assertion that the sylvari appeared shortly before Mordremoth’s rise. It wasn’t to say that their appearance played a part in his timing, but the opposite- that no matter how you look at it, at least one of those events would be hundreds of years removed.

Don’t worry Aaron, I was not targetting anyone in particular Just thinkign that the tone of the topic was getting out of hand.

My impression has always been that the champion oakhearts are infested with mundane parasites and rotting to death as real trees are wont to do.

To me, this simpler and more obvious explanation is also the most poignant. These proud and ancient trees are suffering through an agonizing fate at the hands of no dragon, but a meager bug. The ceaseless and escalating pain has them thrashing against everything in baleful desperation, and they must be put down before they infest their own kin to be chewed away and rotted from the inside. It’s very sad and natural, and I like it.

Occam’s Razor is a beautiful tool that I cannot recommend highly enough.