Guild Wars 2

Mordremoth was and will probably be the most talkative ED. It may be a poor design choice for ED to interact so much with Tyrians.

Reasons:
If an ED is willing to talk that means it recognizes what is talking to as worth speaking to. If they are supposed to be incomprehensible that does not work. It humanizes them too much. which lead us ask why has no ED empathized with the things it is crushing. Glint does not fully count not an ED and it owed its freedom of mind to lesser races.

If ED willing to talk other than to play mind games it proves we are a threat to them. ED were marketed as “more powerful than though”. It is understandable that ED may talk after we killed an ED but Mordremoth just too talkative.

lastly if someone can be communicated with they can be reasoned with to an extent. As of today no reasoning attempts have been made. This probably ED not knowing how to negotiate or unwilling. Seeing as ED do not go into each others realms it means they do know a form of negotiation among each other. For this point I conclude ED are all jerks that value their lives.

I think the idea is that Zhaitan never really came off as a character, but rather an “entity” that operated through other characters, whereas they tried to make Mordremoth more of a real villain by giving him a voice and making him speak directly to the player character. It also makes sense because both Mordremoth and Glint have mind-themed powers, and Glint learnt to speak our languages through telepathy with Tyrians, so why wouldn’t Mordremoth have the same capability?

I like the way Zhaitan communicated, through his minions, because it made him feel like a real wartime mastermind – Felt and heard, but never seen. Which worked well since Orr was largely set up to feel like a war/battleground.

Personally, I would like to see more of the angle they took with Zhaitan, just with a better ending. Jormag currently seems like an actual character in the sense that his minions, who speak about him, the Icebrood and Sons of Svanir, make him seem like he has a personality to him because they talk about the gifts and promises of power he gives them, but I think it would be interesting to rip through this artificial “culture” he has created within his followers, only to get to the end of the final boss area find that Jormag is in fact a cold (pun intended) and soulless creature who only understands hunger and survival.

The concept of an Elder Dragon speaking only works because Mordremoth has telepathic powers to learn language with, otherwise, I wouldn’t expect the other dragons to do this, in favour of manipulating corrupting minions to speak on their behalf, like Zhaitan did, mainly as a way to throw off characters.

and the Elder Dragons have never been known to have a conflict between their minions or themselves. We don’t know if they negotiate among each other. Personally, I think Dragons avoiding each other is more of an animalistic instinct, like a cat who is about to go into another cat’s back garden, only to think “Oh no, this belongs to somebody else, im going to get wrecked if I go in there.” and avoiding it. Because there is no way the dragons have been awake all this time, and not noticed another Dragon’s territory.

i remember it being said in the PS that Zhaitan learned everything its victims knew when they was corrupted so in theory it could learn the tyrian language and talk directly to the PC/Pact(in a non telepathic way) but it choose not to (like we could hear it Roar across the other side of orr xD)

Cat theory not entirely correct cats do communicate each other with body language to signify if they want to be friendly or not to each other when forced into each others territory. I do understand what you are trying to get across but reality there is no 100% animal instinct there are forms of communication that trigger certain reactions. So it stands that there is a form of communication between ED setting up territory that is respected to a degree.

I am inclined to agree with your sentiments on Zhaitan. It gives a better feel when the ED is more anonymous. Also i would not be surprised if in fact Jormag is the way you describe it to be. He does not seem to care much for his followers other than a means.

Anet has created a issue which they have to resolve now they confirmed that ED are intelligent enough to understand consequences of actions and communicate. Anet has to either come out and say all ED are megalomaniacs for some reason or come up with another reason why they are the way they are. They are past the point of being portrayed as forces of nature. They have shown to feel emotion and a degree of critical thinking. ED characters demand to not be as linear and more complex based on the direction Anet is heading.

I don’t think characterizing them is a bad thing, though. The force of nature angle only works if you can sell them as that powerful in the final fight, and so far, ArenaNet’s had two fairly underwhelming ones. That isn’t a bad thing of itself; it’s just a reflection of the development prioritizing accessibility and a personally heroic narrative. It does mean, though, that their stories need to be tweaked so that they’re still rewarding with those priorities. That’s where I see the characterization as coming from, and yes, it means moving away from a force-of-nature concept that wasn’t reconciling with how they wanted their game to play.

As for megalomania- I feel that’s pretty believable in creatures that have no difficulty twisting living things, and even landscapes, to their service, creatures who remake their surroundings in their image, creatures that have seen the rise of untold numbers of civilizations and been personally responsible for their falls. You can forgive a god complex in something that behaves like a god.

Honestly, they always had character and personality to them.

The difference between Mordremoth and the other Elder Dragons is merely that we get to see it first hand rather than through their brainwashed, hive-minded minions.

If you feel that it reduces their character to talk because it makes them recognize the PC as a threat, consider this:

The PC is a threat to them. The Pact killed an Elder Dragon which had survived tens of thousands of years. The death of one Elder Dragon should be enough to make the other five realize the Commander – and the Pact – is a threat. Both Zhaitan and Mordremoth underestimated the Pact and the Commander especially, but even Mordremoth didn’t underestimate the Pact Fleet – that’s why Mordy took it out instantly, no doubt.

The next dragon may not follow that underestimation. The next dragon may accept that this generation is a dangerous generation to them.

It would not surprise me if the next dragon campaign doesn’t start with some assault on a city or fortifications, but an overwhelming assault on the Pact Commander directly.

I think it makes sense that Mordremoth spoke to us directly, whereas Zhaitan did not. Mordremoth’s powers are mind-based, and it uses those powers to manipulate the minds of its victims. To manipulate a human (or sylvari, charr, ect.) mind, you have to be able to comprehend and communicate with that mind. Zhaitan used fear tactics, but Zhaitan did not have the intimate mental connections and abilities that Mordremoth did—Zhaitan’s abilities lie in other areas.
I expect that each elder dragon will have unique personality and communication traits, depending on its specific abilities. If I had to guess, I’d say Jormag will be fairly chatty. Based on Glint, who had mind powers, Kralky may be fairly chatty too—but he could also be more in line with Zhaitan. Primord will probably be like Zhaitan… maybe even less communicative. And Bubbles, who knows?

Prediction:
Most Chatty-Mordy>Jormag>Kralk>Zhaitan>Primord—Least Chatty

Kralky might be more aloof than Zhaitan, actually. Glaust actually strikes me as evidence that Kralkatorrik himself is less capable of understanding mortals – her purpose as Kralkatorrik’s champion was to identify threats to him from mortals. It’s implied that Glaust may have had an existence before being claimed by Kralkatorrik, suggesting that Kralkatorrik doesn’t have the ability to listen into minds like Glint did – and if that power did come from him, that he delegates it implies that he disdainfully chooses not to sully his mind by contacting the minds of mortals. (And considering that he lost a mental duel with Snaff, maybe he’s right to.) Either way, Glaust’s role suggests that Kralkatorrik either could not or chose not to perform that function himself, while other Elder Dragons seem more self-reliant.

He even seems as if he interacts with his minions less. That he went after Glint right after he woke up indicates that he still had some link to her despite the Forgotten ritual – that he didn’t do so before he went to sleep, however, suggests that either he went into hibernation early, or that he didn’t realise his intelligence chief had turned her coat despite having that connection. In Edge of Destiny, there also didn’t seem to be a close link between Kralkatorrik and his minions.

Mind you, this probably still puts him ahead of Primordus, since he does still corrupt the living rather than making his own minions out of lava. And it’s possible that his near miss might cause him to rethink his approach. However, I can see Kralky being a more ‘force of nature’ style dragon as opposed to Mordy, Jormy and Zhaity who all present(ed) themselves, to a greater or lesser extent, as gods that the lesser races really should join voluntarily for their salvation.

Mordremoth really only speaks directly to the Sylvari though, if you aren’t a player character, you just get glimpses through Canach.

When he speaks to everybody, it’s in the final battle in his mind, or the final battle with his body.

And the way I’ve seen it (and heard it, since my Sylvari isn’t that far into the HoT story mode, my human finished it), it’s more of him talking to all Sylvari, trying to convert those that didn’t bend instantly.

I think the aproach of Primordus is a clever one. No talking, action. If you make minions out of people with friends and relatives, there surely will be people coming to kill you to revenge them or spit into your soup in general. If you send you selfmade minions and keep your backside safe at home, avoid to gloat like Zhaitan did all the time through his minions and let them collect magic in an In-Out fashion, your profile will be much lower.

It´s even more clever when he saw how two of his fellow elder dragons were defeated. Brute force is obviously not sufficient to take the lesser folks down, so I hope the next dragon we face is a clever one who does not rely on shock moments to break morale, this never works.

Main reason the dragons wouldn’t talk is because we’re little more then prey to them despite feeding on magic. Plus threatening us directly helps demoralize and spread fear.

I think that Mordremoth was so talkative because he had understood and that this time, the mortal races were more than mere ants and preys. In order :

-Kralkatorrik learnt that despite his might, under the right conditions, a little group of mortals -albeit helped by the greatest mind witnessed so far in GW, Snaff- could have felled him.
-Zhaïtan was slain, something that the other dragons have learnt by now, one way or another (Jormag and Mordremoth probably thanks to their moral servants and minions, the others possibly through some magical knowledge or minions).
-Mordremoth had access to the memories of the Sylvari he corrupted. He knew the face of the Pact Commander, of Trahearne, and Destiny’s Edge. And he knew what happend to Kralkatorrik, if not from another source, probably from Faolain when he corrupted her.

From all this, I can see the Dragons beginning to change their modus operandi. For all we know, for the first time ever two of them have been felled. They aren’t as allmighty as they believed themselves to be, meaning that they may have things to learn from the preys, this time around.

If he had at least something interesting to say…

However I do not believe that we are more special than the last group of races that tried to fight back.

I don`t mind a talktive enemy, but it has to fit.
Mordremoth just went on and on about how powerfull he is and how feeble our atempts will be.
If he would gave other reasons than his own strenght, then he would be more interesting than just gloating.

I mean, shake up our minds, have us question our ways. Is it right to fight the elder dragons? What if they are needed? Maybe create a scenario where we are actually trust him.

Mordremoth tried it at the end, as he attacked us with our failures, but that backfired, as we allready had a strenghtened resolve and tha attack was way too late.

Slow and steady, keep us guessing what is right and what is wrong. Suprise us.

It is not easy, I know, but that would be a villain I wouldn`t mind listening to.

Nothing kills the mystique of a villain faster than too many lines, imho.

I understand Mordy is interacting with the Sylvari and to an extent he should be talking, but I hope Anet doesn’t go overboard and turn the next ED into Dr. Evil. I’ll give you guys an example of what I mean from another videogame series: Diablo.

Diablo the First said nothing at all. When you’d finally reached his inner sanctum, he growled and rushed you.

Diablo the Second had one line: “Not even death can save you from me!” Cheesy, but at least he only said it once.

Diablo the Third never shuts up. He threatens to bury you in your own ter-RAWR. He gives you a tour of the Realm of Ter-RAWR, complete with a running commentary. He taunts you his long-winded appraisal of your abilities. And he pitches a full-on hissy fit as your battle with him enters its final stage.

Thank goodness GW2 came along when it did, because this awful dialogue had rendered that game impossible for me to play without rolling my eyes.

Please, Anet, keep the ED’s silent and mysterious. Mostly silent.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Honestly, they always had character and personality to them.

The difference between Mordremoth and the other Elder Dragons is merely that we get to see it first hand rather than through their brainwashed, hive-minded minions.

True enough but that doesn’t feel as if they were particularly trying to carry across their personalities. I prefer the idea of ‘show don’t tell’ but it did kinda feel that there wasn’t too much effort put into the showing. Or maybe I just don’t pick up on the subtle details.

Tanith.5264:

Nothing kills the mystique of a villain faster than too many lines, imho.

But a mysterious villain isn’t necessarily a good one. I’d like a well fleshed out villain with personality myself. If ANet wants to go Eldritch Abomination then they need to go full on eldritch, that could work but so far we haven’t seen that.

I think when comparing Zhaitan and Mordremoth’s…talkativeness or lack there of, I think its important to keep in mind how very different the nature of the two fight were. While EDs clearly have been shown to be intelligent enough to understand “mortal” language, they simply may not be physically capable of making the correct sounds necessary to speak it. Assuming that theory is correct, Zhaitan could only communicate his rage and offense with roars and growls. But Mordy’s fight was in a realm of the mind, his mind and will versus ours, where some of the physical limitations would not be present.
On top of that, I think that Mordremoth needed to talk at the end. The fight against him, starting from early LS1 up to reaching Dragon’s Stand, felt so much more personal than the campaign against Zhaitan. A battle like that needs the final confrontation to be equally personal, in ways that required Mordy to be able to communicate with us.
Well, those are my thoughts anyway.

The Mouth of Mordremoth talks, and it is Mordremoth’s physical body.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Mouth of Mordremoth talks, and it is Mordremoth’s physical body.

Welp, there goes my theory. kitten. This is what happens when you can never get into a successful DS map.

I was pretty much on board with Mordy talking, especially since I chose to do the story with a sylvari first, until the final mission. He became a bit of a cliche villain with those lines, though in fairness to the writers I wouldn’t expect him to remain silent inside his own head. Still, it really tore away from the "force of nature" aspect of the elder dragons we’ve previously had.

On the other hand, one could argue that any lieutenant / champion of a dragon that is chatty is, in effect, a mouthpiece for the respective dragon. In that case, Zhaitan talked quite a bit, too.

To me Zhaitan Champions came off as individuals who are simply “forced” to fallow orders. it would have been neat if the mouths of zhaitan actually spoke for it!
(make it more creepy with mutable of them talking at once) missed opportunity!

i hope Primordus isnt chatty that would ruin the Destroyers to me “They did really seem like a force of nature that just exist to destroy in Eotn”

Really that’s what most dragon minions are – any that are corrupted living beings are individuals who are forced (via a form of brainwashing and magically enslaved will) to serve their respective dragon.

Just want to point out that not even H.P. Lovecraft had Eldritch abominations that never spoke. In particular, Nyarlathotep often took human form and he was a huge jerk with the antics he got up to when acting as avatar. It is possible Mordremoth considered us a threat where Zhaitan did not, but that doesn’t undermine him in my eyes — just the opposite. He’s intelligent enough to know what the Pact was capable of and enact a plan to thwart them.

I think the key isn’t how many or how little lines a “natural force” larger than life villain has. It’s that 100% of those lines have to be intimidating, consistent and well-written. The more lines you have, the more likely you’re going to eventually screw it up and inadvertently turn the monstrosity into a cackling 1980’s cartoon villain. Anyone else remember what a disappointment Yogg-Saron turned out to be in Wrath of the Lich King once he started opening his gaping mouth? All the build-up and intensity they had for the Old Gods vanished into thin air overnight. I probably shouldn’t have hoped for much considering what hams WoW villains always turn out to be, but still.

In general I was okay with Mordremoth. He came off as a monster who was smart enough to communicate with us, but lacking the desire to do so beyond breaking our morale and seizing the souls of weakminded sylvari. I’d criticize in general that dragons haven’t been scary or intimidating in general for literally decades so I think they accomplished what they set out to have for him.

I dislike talkative EDs aswell. Hope they don’t repeat this.

Vlad.1739:

If an ED is willing to talk that means it recognizes what is talking to as worth speaking to.

If ED willing to talk other than to play mind games it proves we are a threat to them.

So if I go to my yard and stomp on an anthill for fun, and as I do I’m saying “Hi little ants, I’m gonna crush you now. Flee for your lives!” does that mean I think the ants are a threat worth speaking to?

Mordy only talks to Sylvari PCs during most of the story, and then all he’s saying really is “Submit to me” or “Everything will be mine.” etc. During the Dream/DS fights he talks because you’re literally in his face with a sword.

If he was pulling up a table to negotiate you’d have a point. But he’s not talking because he considers us threats. He’s talking because he can.