Guild Wars 2

What do you expect to see them in the new expansion? I hope to know their history, culture and technology more. Perhaps more of them already decided to give up their plan on the humans after the door was sealed in the end of Prophecies.

In 2:47 of the trailer, could that Mursaat be Lazarus? He looks a bit green.

Primarily, I want to know why they glow colors now. Beyond that… everything? Religion, culture, government, and history are going to be my primary interests, in roughly that order. If we get a new written language for them, that would also be a nice bonus! I also want them to not be whitewashed, a la charr. I know a couple people have been bouncing around the idea that the ones we fought weren’t representative of the race as a whole, or that they might have changed since then, but I’ve been wanting a grayer alliance of convenience for a long time now, and I actually guessed early in Season 2 that the White Mantle might be our opportunity to have that. Going over their heads and dealing directly with their masters would be just as good.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Primarily, I want to know why they glow colors now. Beyond that… everything? Religion, culture, government, and history are going to be my primary interests, in roughly that order. If we get a new written language for them, that would also be a nice bonus! I also want them to not be whitewashed, a la charr. I know a couple people have been bouncing around the idea that the ones we fought weren’t representative of the race as a whole, or that they might have changed since then, but I’ve been wanting a grayer alliance of convenience for a long time now, and I actually guessed early in Season 2 that the White Mantle might be our opportunity to have that. Going over their heads and dealing directly with their masters would be just as good.

Probably it was the whole race’s decision to save then rule Kryta and keep the seal on the Door. But a few decisions such as kill Saul’s men might be a few individual’s decision.

Well the Mursaat didn’t give up on Kryta after the Door was sealed. It required a Civil War to drive them out.

It could be these are a different group of Mursaat to those involved with the White Mantle but the other things we know about their race hardly present a good picture. They abandoned the other races during the last dragon cycle. They warred on and wiped out the Seers and even if this group aren’t linked to the White Mantle there is no sign that they have done anything to stop the damage done by their kin or their kin’s servants.

Evidence points to a group which would be hard to trust.

The humans drove the charr out of Ascalon. Just because the mursaat warred with the seers doesn’t mean they didn’t have good reason to do so. Guild Wars 1 takes place from a human perspective, so all the lore we learn from it favours the humans and their allies (which happens to be the forgotten, although some forgotten do fight the player) and is unsympathetic to their enemies (the charr and mursaat). How can you see the mursaat side of the story when all mursaat were kill on sight? We see in GW2 that the charr situation wasn’t as black and white as it was in GW1, why should we assume the mursaat are any different?

As an aside, though, we still don’t have the full story regarding why humans drove the charr out of Ascalon. The charr side of the story acknowledges (revels in, in fact) that the charr were themselves expanding until the death of the Khan-Ur, and in that expansion they came into conflict with both Forgotten (referenced in the Ecology of the Charr) and dwarves (referenced in one of the EOTN dungeons), both allies of the humans and their gods. The human invasion of Ascalon may not have been as unprovoked as the charr side of the story seems to claim.

So…those are supposed to be Mursaat??

Why do they look so different?

Shiren.9532:

Guild Wars 1 takes place from a human perspective, so all the lore we learn from it favours the humans and their allies…

I laugh every time I see this.

That’s like saying The Hobbit was written in a dwarven perspective…with halfling sympathies.

GW2 ANet hooked, lined, and sinkered you bud.

Obsidian.1328:

So…those are supposed to be Mursaat??

Pure player speculation.

Personally, I’m not so sure they’re mursaat. Why do I say this?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:War_Beast.jpg

The “skin” for these so-called mursaat is the same as the golden glow on the war beasts. War beasts are basically powerful rock dogs – which are canine-shaped earth elementals. This is how rock dogs would likely look in GW1. And this was their more powerful version.

Note that, in GW1, for what’s effectively rock dogs (then called stonewolves) and war beasts (then called Shard Wolves ) – the latter had no golden glow. It was transparent.

Now, what was armor and no body (aka transparent body)? That’s right Enchanted Armors

And what was gold that they looked like? That’s right, Mursaat armor. (the enchanted armors are basically tarnished, spikier versions of mursaat armor – toes and general shape of gloves, boots, and helm are effectively the same).

So I think these things are enchanted armor, polished or made out of the mursaat’s armor. The golden glow translated to GW1 would be transparent – invisible.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

-snip-

Agree.

So…it’s just a case of “let’s pull out some old art from GW1 and make something new.”

;-)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Personally, I’m not so sure they’re mursaat. Why do I say this?

Hasn’t this hesitance to jump onto player speculation burned you before? Obey!

A proper scholar investigates all the possibilities… and those of us who’ve been around long enough remember when a theory that had been accepted by pretty much the entire community crashed and burned due to being Jossed by ArenaNet… and that was one that involved the Mursaat.

To be honest, the behaviour of some posters is making me hope it happens again. Not that I particularly care either way whether they’re mursaat, djinn, Enchanted, or anything else – there are interesting directions the story could take for any of them – but simply to bring some balance back into the forums between the bandwagoners and the people advocating other possibilities.

The (supposedly) mursaat models look like a redesign. Like as if a designer was given a set of attributes and features, and he had to reconstruct the whole thing without taking much of a look at GW1 counterparts.

• Highly magical beings.
• mostly human body-shape and proportions.
• Golden armor, bright golden and yellow color themes
• Feather-like tendrils coming from the back
• Floating, feet not touching the ground.
• graceful
• ominous

Are they mursaat? I dont know. They certainly are not Seers as i first assumed from the pre-PAX trailer.

draxynnic.3719:

A proper scholar investigates all the possibilities… and those of us who’ve been around long enough remember when a theory that had been accepted by pretty much the entire community crashed and burned due to being Jossed by ArenaNet… and that was one that involved the Mursaat.

I’m curious. Which one was that again?

SirMoogie.9263:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Personally, I’m not so sure they’re mursaat. Why do I say this?

Hasn’t this hesitance to jump onto player speculation burned you before? Obey!

Let me clarify:

I don’t think they’re living mursaat.

MaesterTed.6571:

draxynnic.3719:

A proper scholar investigates all the possibilities… and those of us who’ve been around long enough remember when a theory that had been accepted by pretty much the entire community crashed and burned due to being Jossed by ArenaNet… and that was one that involved the Mursaat.

I’m curious. Which one was that again?

I don’t think I was around for the theory drax mentions, but I think it may be where folks were absolutely certain to a near unanimous concensus that the enchanted armors of the crystal desert were tied to the mursaat.

Or maybe it was that White Mantle/Shadow Army connection theory.

Or maybe it was the “mursaat are good guys and looking out for our best interests” ones.

Maybe it was the “Lord Odran was the first ascended mursaat” one.

There were quite a lot in ye olde days, most inspired by Quintus Antonius (the first loremaster if you ask me) who was very, very in love with the mursaat and their lore – so much so that every old theory I listed came or was supported by Mr. QA. And just about each and every one got debunked. 8D

Ahhh yes, I remember most of those, excluding the Shadow Army one, and I most certainly remember Quintus Antonius

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Obsidian.1328:

So…those are supposed to be Mursaat??

Pure player speculation.

Personally, I’m not so sure they’re mursaat. Why do I say this?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:War_Beast.jpg

The “skin” for these so-called mursaat is the same as the golden glow on the war beasts. War beasts are basically powerful rock dogs – which are canine-shaped earth elementals. This is how rock dogs would likely look in GW1. And this was their more powerful version.

Note that, in GW1, for what’s effectively rock dogs (then called stonewolves) and war beasts (then called Shard Wolves ) – the latter had no golden glow. It was transparent.

Now, what was armor and no body (aka transparent body)? That’s right Enchanted Armors

And what was gold that they looked like? That’s right, Mursaat armor. (the enchanted armors are basically tarnished, spikier versions of mursaat armor – toes and general shape of gloves, boots, and helm are effectively the same).

So I think these things are enchanted armor, polished or made out of the mursaat’s armor. The golden glow translated to GW1 would be transparent – invisible.

Except enchanted armors don’t levitate or have tendrils coming out of their back and were never golden. Anet just gave the mursaat a redesign.

I think there was also one which basically linked every set of old ruins in Prophecies to the mursaat.

To be honest, I can’t remember the details now or which precisely it was – I was mostly watching from the sidelines myself. I do recall, however, mass player anger at ArenaNet seemingly getting something ‘wrong’, followed by dawning realisation that it was a bandwagon that everybody had jumped on despite there being very little actual evidence to support it.

Ergo being cautious now.

Deli.1302:

Except enchanted armors don’t levitate or have tendrils coming out of their back and were never golden. Anet just gave the mursaat a redesign.

The enchanted armors have the same number – and same size – of toes as the mursaat. The fingers of the gauntlets look the same. The top of the helm looks roughly the same (same curved v shape). The enchanted armors are basically a non-levitating tarnished spikier version of mursaat armors. The tendrils would be part of the mursaat themselves, not the armor.

But it’s been confirmed in the past that there’s no relation between the two. Nonetheless, the appearance similarity cannot be denied. And the cave with the golden location held Forgotten runes, so that’s something to consider.

draxynnic.3719:

I think there was also one which basically linked every set of old ruins in Prophecies to the mursaat.

To be honest, I can’t remember the details now or which precisely it was – I was mostly watching from the sidelines myself. I do recall, however, mass player anger at ArenaNet seemingly getting something ‘wrong’, followed by dawning realisation that it was a bandwagon that everybody had jumped on despite there being very little actual evidence to support it.

Ergo being cautious now.

Ah yes, the ruins one…

Other bandwagon theories include:

The Mage Lord Order
There Is No Sixth God (someone, forgot the name but he got an NPC with other GWO loregoes in Nightfall, had theorized a fallen god erased from history during Prophecies, and everyone went against him)
Balthazar is the Great Dwarf
and which Bloodstone relates to which school of magic

And how about recent ones people have forgotten?

Primordus is behind Scarlet/Scarlet will incite Primordus
Flame and Frost will be Primordus v. Jormag
The Six Gods are the Elder Dragons

And probably many, many more.

The GW community is VERY fast to hop on bandwagons. It just so happens that one major one was right this time, so now everyone who goes against the bandwagon is suddenly “burned” by the past ones?

I think they are Mursaats. Even if they look more shattered than in GW1.

My proove are quote from the Bonus Pack, Saul. He said something like “Pure and full of energy creature, with wings, and look perfect”.

But here Konig des Todes I agree with : maybe they got a new form, in order to “survive” or whatever.

Also other proofs :

• Golden cities, their home town.
  By the way we clearly see one Mursaat turning Buildings into golden by his magic, in the last trailer. But those buildings were already there.
• The mask, really important in the description of a Mursaat.
• The Maguuma Jungle, their hometown. Saul of Allessio was lost in here, drunk … But the Mursaats took him in their City, and healed him.
• They, of course, are going to be important to defeat or learn more about the Dragons or whatever. That seems logical with the actual Story.

Also, personaly I would love to see an interesting lore about them, cool explications, why they didn t gave their magic for the bloodstone, why they weren t with the other Races, …. so many why !

Well, you also claimed the ghost was “more definitely not the Ghostly Hero”, and “likely Rurik”.

We all know how that turned out. Personally a think it’s just a Mursaat redesign. We all know how radically Anet redesigned much of their art, and not just creatures but landscapes and lore too. They don’t seem to care too much about continuity.

Slowpokeking.8720:

In 2:47 of the trailer, could that Mursaat be Lazarus? He looks a bit green.

While I loved the Mursaat and am indeed looking for Lazarus’ “rebirth” plot to unfold, I’m wondering if maybe that’s just a druid, a species long presumed extinct even in GW1. Seeing them come back as a source of insight on Mordremoth would be cool. Although at the same time I guess my disagreement with seeing that dude as Lazarus would be that the Mursaat were flesh and bone, not energy – however I do admit that Lazarus is one such unique case who sacrificed his body by splitting himself into facets which would also just as much suggest the energy form.

lakdav.3694:

The (supposedly) mursaat models look like a redesign. Like as if a designer was given a set of attributes and features, and he had to reconstruct the whole thing without taking much of a look at GW1 counterparts.

Well yeah, naturally when you deal with new engines old designs will get refurnished and upgraded. So there is that to consider but I’m just… I’m hesitant on calling it now even as much as I loved the Mursaat – something about it seems off.

draxynnic.3719:

I think there was also one which basically linked every set of old ruins in Prophecies to the mursaat.

To be honest, I can’t remember the details now or which precisely it was – I was mostly watching from the sidelines myself. I do recall, however, mass player anger at ArenaNet seemingly getting something ‘wrong’, followed by dawning realisation that it was a bandwagon that everybody had jumped on despite there being very little actual evidence to support it.

Ergo being cautious now.

The one theory I know myself and Quintus Antonius were very disappointed by was more so Eye of The North. He fell in love with my joke that Menzies was The Destroyer and in the wake of Abaddon’s Destruction, was attempting to “flank the planet”. Unfortunately that was debunked and what we got was a pretty lousy end-boss during GW:EN with a huge segway into GW2 teasers.

As for the Mursaat, hm. The whole, “Hell is paved with good intentions.” Wasn’t ever really disproved. Gale just implied that they had ulterior motives which weren’t entirely evil but obviously, innocent people were dying. Can’t quite remember what the Mursaat grand reveal was.

My favorite theory was the idea behind the Jade Armors actually being the souls of the slain on the BloodStones, thus in death they’re granted immortality to serve a greater purpose. That theory however remains to be confirmed or denied as GW:EN nor GW:Beyond gave any inclination.

If one is looking for a lore explanation on why they look somewhat different (aside from the simple “250 years have passed” or “They are not the same mursaat”), it can be considered that what we saw in GW1 was probably the true image of the mursaat that we as player characters could see as we were Chosen, granted the gift of True Sight through ascension. Our GW2 characters are not chosen, we dont have true sight, and it was very clearly stated that we did not ascend via that echo of the ascension rituals. So the new design might as well be how the mursaat look to those who they let see them, and the gw1 models are how they are visible through True Sight.

Lets face it though, if the entire expansion doesnt have a mursaat encounter in it after all this build-up, much of the lore community will be gravely disappointed. And these guys are the closest to what we can guess to be mursaat.

neilug hyuga.5634:

But here Konig des Todes I agree with : maybe they got a new form, in order to “survive” or whatever.

While I am not entirely convinced, one must keep in mind that Lazarus (the last known surviving Mursaat) split his soul into numerous facets. So we have no idea what that could have done to his physical form, altering it in some way if/when he puts himself back together. It’s been 250, give or take, years.

IE: Golem changed due to proximity with the ring in less than that.

The being we see could plausibly be Lazarus but that’s reaching even for my tastes at this point. It’s not new by any means for developers to reuse architecture and designs in order to save development time. It just so happens they used the finale of Season 2 to imply a correlation in Forgotten architecture between the two games, where as in GW1 it was nothing more than a baseless theory.

Honestly, I myself love looking at all of the angles before I jump into any bandwagon. The Sylvari Minion origin was more or less me trying to deny that they were “Tyria’s Immune System and destined to destroy all dragons” which was way more snowflakey for my tastes than the former. But that being said, my take on it didn’t get kick started until Scarlet entered the scene and episode by episode, just before the finale, had given hints. Season 2 then jump started that in a big way, to me the evidence was just substantial – there was a link it just wasn’t clearly defined.

I’d like more information still before coming to any conclusion about this trailer.

lakdav.3694:

If one is looking for a lore explanation on why they look somewhat different (aside from the simple “250 years have passed” or “They are not the same mursaat”), it can be considered that what we saw in GW1 was probably the true image of the mursaat that we as player characters could see as we were Chosen, granted the gift of True Sight through ascension. Our GW2 characters are not chosen, we dont have true sight, and it was very clearly stated that we did not ascend via that echo of the ascension rituals. So the new design might as well be how the mursaat look to those who they let see them, and the gw1 models are how they are visible through True Sight.

I didn’t get to read this because of lousy-refresh stuffs. I do think that would be very interesting by why waste that “image” on a cutscene that the player specifically would have no knowledge of? But it’s something to note as is anything else right now.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The GW community is VERY fast to hop on bandwagons. It just so happens that one major one was right this time, so now everyone who goes against the bandwagon is suddenly “burned” by the past ones?

sigh I was merely making a jest that you were going against what is quickly being taken up as “the answer” for what we saw in the trailer and how quickly certain people turned to gloating over something like this with the Sylvari reveal. I thought by including the “Obey!”, a lore reference about jumping onto cult like worship of something, that it was an obvious jest on this situation. I know not what else to say about this, other than I apologize if this struck a sour note for you. I, and others, really do appreciate the knowledge and skepticism you bring to the Lore forum.

MaesterTed.6571:

Ahhh yes, I remember most of those, excluding the Shadow Army one, and I most certainly remember Quintus Antonius

I remember him as well, with fondness. I loved reading his posts; he inspired me to get deeper into the lore of Tyria. Whatever became of him?

Back OT…“Mursaat” was the first word that flashed into my mind when I saw those critters. There are certain aspects of them I can’t account for—such as why their fleshly bodies of old are now glowing—but I think it is them. Possibly they’ve “evolved”? The flipping three-headed wurm in Bloodtide evolved, so why can’t they?

Also, I think we should consider the setting we see them in. Rytlock reveals the hidden entrance to their city (or stronghold or whatever that is) by burning away the vines that conceal it. He then leads a mixed-race group in to meet them. I can imagine him saying “All right, you floating freaks, here’s your chance to put things right since you ran away during the last rise of the dragons (Remember, Rytlock has a thing about people abandoning their responsibilities in combat!). Help us fight this dragon!”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The tendrils would be part of the mursaat themselves, not the armor.

So are you agreeing that they are mursaat or not mursaat? Because the beings in the trailer had tendrils. Also there was a part in the trailer where it casts some sort of spell and enchanted armors were never spell casters if I remember correctly.

Ronin.7381:

Slowpokeking.8720:

In 2:47 of the trailer, could that Mursaat be Lazarus? He looks a bit green.

While I loved the Mursaat and am indeed looking for Lazarus’ “rebirth” plot to unfold, I’m wondering if maybe that’s just a druid, a species long presumed extinct even in GW1.

I thought we did see the druids in GW1 (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Druid) very much not extinct?

I think Colin said in the HoT reveal that the method in which ranger’s become druids is by learning the secrets of the druids from long ago. I would be surprised if we didn’t see any of the druids, but they don’t look like the creatures everyone thinks are mursaat, nor would I expect them to live in cities.

Depends on how you define ‘extinct’. They’ve abandoned their corporeal existence and become spirits – which can be viewed as willingly dying and becoming ghosts.

draxynnic.3719:

Depends on how you define ‘extinct’. They’ve abandoned their corporeal existence and become spirits – which can be viewed as willingly dying and becoming ghosts.

Pretty much this. I mean that was the basis for the Ranger spirit summons. Which… makes me all the more believe that these things are druids and not Mursaat. Even that figure’s form looks too… basic for what I’d have assumed Lazarus to be.

One speculation I did find interesting though is the idea that without being ascended, we of course would see something else out of the Mursaat, assuming they allowed us to see them at all. But then again The Unseen Ones could just be a moniker derived from people who have either never lived to tell the tale or only spoke to non-Mursaat messengers.

I’m just very skeptical on this being turning out to be a Mursaat. Especially in the one shot we immediately have two others, one at each side, of the one we presume to be the one casting his glowy Hokus Pokus.

TheBlackLeech did make an interesting observation in a similar thread in the HoT-specific forum – the Shining Ones do appear to have what could be grey flesh behind the mask, meaning that the glowy stuff might be some sort of energy armour rather than the natural state of the being beneath.

Still doesn’t explain why they only have two tendrils rather than a dozen, but it does help explain one of the differences.

Deli.1302:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The tendrils would be part of the mursaat themselves, not the armor.

So are you agreeing that they are mursaat or not mursaat? Because the beings in the trailer had tendrils. Also there was a part in the trailer where it casts some sort of spell and enchanted armors were never spell casters if I remember correctly.

Neither. I was merely stating that the tendrils are part of the mursaat’s body – as far as we know, are told, and can tell – and not their armor.

Whether or not the golden beings in the trailer are mursaat or not… I find it equally plausible to be mursaat, and not mursaat. Though the most likely scenario, imo, are mursaat who bound their souls to constructs (think willing Shiro’ken).

The glowy armour sort of reminds me of the Zodiac armour.

Posted this in the HOT threads, but might get more takers here.

Standing bet to anyone on whether they’re mursaat or not (I’m pro).

It could be either yeah, but if it’s viable I’m willing to put down coin on it.

Deli.1302:

Because the beings in the trailer had tendrils. Also there was a part in the trailer where it casts some sort of spell and enchanted armors were never spell casters if I remember correctly.

Something curious about that spot at 2:47. The being in question doesn’t appear to have tendrils any longer, or is using them to power the beam attack… it’s hard to discern which of those it is, but towards the end of the brief clip it no longer has the tendrils (if it did at all).

SirMoogie.9263:

Deli.1302:

Because the beings in the trailer had tendrils. Also there was a part in the trailer where it casts some sort of spell and enchanted armors were never spell casters if I remember correctly.

Something curious about that spot at 2:47. The being in question doesn’t appear to have tendrils any longer, or is using them to power the beam attack… it’s hard to discern which of those it is, but towards the end of the brief clip it no longer has the tendrils..

And his hands (gauntlets) are solid blades. Why forsake the capabilities of fingers and thumbs for arm-blades as what appears to be a castor?

Also:

enchanted armors were never spell casters if I remember correctly.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jade_Cloak
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Harn_Coldstone

Like the Tower Golem, I don’t think Harn Coldstone is an Enchanted, simply a re-use of the model.

Still, there are plenty of examples of golems and constructs at least behaving mechanically like spellcasters. We don’t know exactly what enchanted actually were beyond the obvious, so we don’t know if there is anything that would disbar them from being spellcasters.

One thing upsets me.
In Mursaat, I was hoping to keep their civilization red jade, gemstone with this particular architecture gw1.

And gave the Asuras the architecture of a Druidic civilization or Maguuma forgotten people, who were very Aztecs / maya…