Guild Wars 2

I think the gods have gone silent because of the Elder Dragon’s stirring, as well as having been to Tyria before they brought humans. Before someone says: DAT WAS 55 YEARS BEFORE!!! Let me just say I said STIRRING. As in Primordius beginning to hunger. The God’s COULD know this from magic similar to the mystic telescope, which shows the elder Dragon will soon rise. Gods stopped communicating to prevent the elder dragons from approaching humans, as they leave plenty of magic, as seen by Zhaitans corruption of statues. As for them being on Tyria before humans, the game hints at that in several places. First, the Jotun storyteller. He claims that the 6 God’s favored the Jotun and Norn before the humans arrived in Tyria, as well as hinting that the gods were on Tyria after the seers gathered all races magic into the Bloodstone, but well before humans. Not only that, but he also claims the gods did not care for humans much first, implying either the gods did not bring them, or they were brought to simply replace destroyed species after the elder dragons returned to sleep. Secondly, Glint, whom claimed to be created by the elder dragons, predates the Bloodstone. Is it possible she was simply a branded version of something the gods created beforehand?

I’m not one to outright shoot a theory down but in the interest of refinement I’ll make a couple points.

Thruln the Lost says the gods favored the giants before they took magic away. The NPC’s don’t have our God’s eye view of lore but we know it was the seers who took it away via the bloodstone when the 6 brought humanity to tyria. So the giants may have reguarded the seers as gods. Or they knew that that magic was given by a god and assumed when it left them via the bloodstone, that it was the gods doing.

Another possibility is that the mantles of the 6 was present in Tyria but all the current persoinalities weren’t. We know 2 outright wouldn’t have been but the charr have a legend of Melandru creating tyria so she may be an older or even an origional personality for the mantle of godhood who the charr remember from their cultural infancy. So she may have actually brought the charr to Tyria and they just assumed she created it. Either way that supports the idea that atleast melandru was on tyria before the 6 brought humanity. The humans do say she is the oldest of them.

Human legends say melandru was the third of the 6 to arrive on tyria. So she very well may have been here before, gone to where humans are, then 2 other gods came to tyria while she stayed behind to tie up loose ends. we also don’t know who humanity actually came to tyria with. One god brought them all or diffrent groups came with diffrent gods.

anyways, just food for thought

Well it may just be mechanical, but the gods were still giving out their blessings in the War in Kryta and the Winds of Change expansions. Both of these took place in the years after the Great Destroyer was removed, which was the original stirrings of Primordus. I’m not saying that the gods silence isn’t related to the ED’s, just that perhaps they didn’t know what they were dealing with when Primordus first stirred, or they didn’t know that there was more than one, which could be a threat to their personal beings.

Dusk: I knew I forgot some legend of the gods existing before! As for the Thruln, I doubt they saw the seers as gods, as they allied with them and willingly gave up their magic to forge the bloodstone, but the 6 gods returned the magic to them when they arrived before removing it once more.

Narc: Good point.

No one says that they willingly gave up their magic. For all we know the Seers created the Bloodstone in secret as a kill switch for the ED’s (not really kill switch, but instantaneously removing their entire food source.) I like to believe that the Bloodstone was THE leading factor in the eventual war between the Mursaat and the Seer, being as the Mursaat were the most attached to their magic.

“During the last rise of the Elder Dragons, they forged the original Bloodstone to contain all untainted magic, including the jotun’s. They allied with the forgotten, dwarves, jotun, and mursaat to resist the Elder Dragons and survived.”

@OP:

• The gods went silent at the end of Nightfall, three years before the Great Destroyer rose.
• The Mystic Telescope itself doesn’t show when the Elder Dragons will rise, but the stars which can be seen via the Mystic Telescope do. So there’s no magic relation between the Mystic Telescope and the Elder Dragons.
• Thruln the Losts’ words are horribly inaccurate in terms of the historical relation between the Six Gods and humanity. Everything he said about humanity is either wrong or highly unlikely. The Six Gods very much recognized humanity before they built kingdoms on continental Tyria, seeing how the Six Gods brought humanity to the world. This is a fact as it came from Ree Soesbee and Jeff Grubb themselves (they’re the lore continuity writers for ArenaNet). Take everything Thruln says with a grain of salt, because half of the things he says is known to be wrong – and that includes, as I’ve said, the relation between humanity and the gods.
• Glint was indeed a branded, but she is not a creation of the Six Gods. That was a lie she told to hide her true origins and ties to the Elder Dragons.

@Dustfinger: While I wouldn’t doubt that the taking of magic was in reference to the seers, I don’t think the jotun saw them as gods. The jotun’s primary quality is their pride in themselves. A whole point is made about them about how they would never worship non-jotun, which is why the jotun turning to Jormag for power to become a giant-king is so unusual and questioned.

I doubt that Melandru was on Tyria before Dwayna. It’s more likely that the legends attributing her to creating the world is due to her terraforming the land. She’s said in human history (Orrian History Scrolls aren’t so much human legend so much as human history, then again the same could be said for History of Tyria so…) to have turned Orr into a verdant land after Balthazar went and scorched it. If she did so elsewhere – which is implied – then races may have seen her do such and believe she was creating the world.

Beetle.2476:

As for the Thruln, I doubt they saw the seers as gods, as they allied with them and willingly gave up their magic to forge the bloodstone

Nothing says that the seers contained magic with the consent of others.

And no, not even the fan-written summary from the GW2W article says that. The source of the information that the jotun’s magic was put into the bloodstone, by the way, is this line: “I believe that the Seers gathered up all uncorrupted magic, including that of the jotun, and put it within the original Bloodstone.” (from Randall Greystone in Arah explorable dungeon). He doesn’t say the seers worked with consent of anyone, and given how the mursaat “betrayed” the other races and nearly wiped out the seers before fleeing the world, I bet it wasn’t consensual.

Yup, we like to see things as black and white (Mursaat bad, Seers good) but instead there are just many shades of grey.

So it seems jotun probably didn’t see the seers as gods though they still may have assumed it was the gods doing when their magic was taken.

I doubt that Melandru was on Tyria before Dwayna. It’s more likely that the legends attributing her to creating the world is due to her terraforming the land. She’s said in human history (Orrian History Scrolls aren’t so much human legend so much as human history, then again the same could be said for History of Tyria so…) to have turned Orr into a verdant land after Balthazar went and scorched it. If she did so elsewhere – which is implied – then races may have seen her do such and believe she was creating the world.

The charr legend of melandru creating the world would likely be older than humanities existance on the world. so id dwayna really did come before melandu then dwayna would also have needed to be here.

Narcemus.1348:

Yup, we like to see things as black and white (Mursaat bad, Seers good) but instead there are just many shades of grey.

I can’t blame folks, since Anet has a habit of doing that to their groups.

Separatists? Yeah, they hate charr, so much they can’t stand peace. But each and every one of them also just so happens to be a family-killing back-stabbing racist kitten who’d be fine stomping on babies to kill some charr. The only exceptions are those two or three who didn’t realize how evil their co-workers were and have “seen the light” and went AWOL.

Take above paragraph, replace Separatists with any enemy faction/race, and put in their own reasons. But they’re all “family-killing back-stabbing racist kitten who’d be fine stomping on babies to kill their enemies” – bandit, krait, Flame Legion, Renegades, Branded, centaur. You name it.

Dustfinger.9510:

So it seems jotun probably didn’t see the seers as gods though they still may have assumed it was the gods doing when their magic was taken.

Except that, as far as we’re aware, the Six Gods didn’t exist in Tyria yet.

Dustfinger.9510:

The charr legend of melandru creating the world would likely be older than humanities existance on the world. so id dwayna really did come before melandu then dwayna would also have needed to be here.

Why would that be? Nothing really requires false legends to exist before humanity when there’s no relation to humanity at the time. Besides, based off of Orrian History Scrolls humanity may have arrived before Melandru.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except that, as far as we’re aware, the Six Gods didn’t exist in Tyria yet.

As far as we’re aware, the charr legend of melandru may very well be true. That isn’t a counter point.

Why would that be? Nothing really requires false legends to exist before humanity when there’s no relation to humanity at the time. Besides, based off of Orrian History Scrolls humanity may have arrived before Melandru.

Aside from arbitrarily assuming a legend is false, there’s no reason to doubt it at all. Why doubt the charr and not the humans? Wich goes back to a point already made previously: That melandru may have come and gone back before coming back again.

We know for a FACT that the Six Gods didn’t arrive on Tyria until after the mursaat/seer war. This war occurred either during or after the last Elder Dragon rise. We don’t know when the Bloodstone was made in relation to this war, but indications give that the Bloodstone was made after the war, as said implications are that the war is the “betrayal.”

We know that the legend is false – Tyria existed before any of the Six Gods walked on Tyria. It is a fact stated by the developers long before Guild Wars 2 was released.

We know that melandru didn’t create tyria. We DON’T know if she was on tyria prior to the 6 bringing humanity….wich is the point of this thread.

However, we know that the Six Gods don’t predate humanity on Tyria by much. Regardless of whether or not Melandru or humans walked on the world first, the legend is false and so when it came about is irrelevant and nothing demands the charr’s legend to predate humanity. Even if the only timeframe we have is the Orrian History Scrolls which imply a near instantaneous transition of Dwayna arriving to bringing humanity and Jeff Grubb saying that the Six Gods predate humanity “but not by much,” there’s still nothing to indicate that there was enough timespan between the third god arriving and humanity arriving when the second god to arrive wanted humanity to conquer the world.

You said I arbitrarily assumed a legend is false (no, I didn’t), but it’s actually you who’s arbitrarily assuming – that the legend predates humanity on the world.

And besides, regardless of whether the legend predates humanity on Tyria or not, the original point to it is the claim that Melandru – if not the Six Gods – were around during the original Bloodstone’s creation. However, isn’t this impossible?

1. The Bloodstone’s purpose was to starve out the Elder Dragons. The Six Gods, being beings of magic, would counteract this purpose.
2. The Six Gods didn’t know that Zhaitan was beneath Arah, this implies they weren’t around until after he, at least, began hibernating.

Your assumed timespans are equally arbitrary.

1. a good reason to leave
2. Or it implies they left.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Narcemus.1348:

Yup, we like to see things as black and white (Mursaat bad, Seers good) but instead there are just many shades of grey.

I can’t blame folks, since Anet has a habit of doing that to their groups.

Separatists? Yeah, they hate charr, so much they can’t stand peace. But each and every one of them also just so happens to be a family-killing back-stabbing racist kitten who’d be fine stomping on babies to kill some charr. The only exceptions are those two or three who didn’t realize how evil their co-workers were and have “seen the light” and went AWOL.

Take above paragraph, replace Separatists with any enemy faction/race, and put in their own reasons. But they’re all “family-killing back-stabbing racist kitten who’d be fine stomping on babies to kill their enemies” – bandit, krait, Flame Legion, Renegades, Branded, centaur. You name it.

On a completely different note from what you are talking about. I find this the most disappointing part of GW2 honestly. ArenaNet, through GW1, created a world filled with shades of grey. The Charr who were the most feral evil beasts, became a living group of individuals that weren’t all agreed on the path their race was taking. Winds of Change was one of the absolute best forms of shades of grey that I have seen playing out in the Guild Wars universe overall. Members leaving the evil group, having a ministry with good morals turning their power towards evil. Having evil groups fighting other evil groups and having to draw the lines of morality, it was some of ArenaNet’s best writing to date in my mind.

I was pretty tired when I made this thread, so let me rephrase this. We all know gods can be surpassed and overthrown, as this has already happened twice in human history. They fill the same role as the other god, yet they are completely different people. They seem to have the same sort of physical deformities as the previous ones like the tentacles on Kormir in Divinities Reach. These people may have existed beforehand, as different beings. Thruln’s legends would then correspond with the human legends, as they could have favored giants in a past life, but then brought humans to Tyria in different forms. Melandru was most likely the same being previously, due to the charr myths. She “made” Tyria the way it is today.

The elder dragons probably would have driven the gods off the face of Tyria from all the magic hunting long before they hibernated.

Narcemus.1348:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Narcemus.1348:

Yup, we like to see things as black and white (Mursaat bad, Seers good) but instead there are just many shades of grey.

I can’t blame folks, since Anet has a habit of doing that to their groups.

Separatists? Yeah, they hate charr, so much they can’t stand peace. But each and every one of them also just so happens to be a family-killing back-stabbing racist kitten who’d be fine stomping on babies to kill some charr. The only exceptions are those two or three who didn’t realize how evil their co-workers were and have “seen the light” and went AWOL.

Take above paragraph, replace Separatists with any enemy faction/race, and put in their own reasons. But they’re all “family-killing back-stabbing racist kitten who’d be fine stomping on babies to kill their enemies” – bandit, krait, Flame Legion, Renegades, Branded, centaur. You name it.

On a completely different note from what you are talking about. I find this the most disappointing part of GW2 honestly. ArenaNet, through GW1, created a world filled with shades of grey. The Charr who were the most feral evil beasts, became a living group of individuals that weren’t all agreed on the path their race was taking. Winds of Change was one of the absolute best forms of shades of grey that I have seen playing out in the Guild Wars universe overall. Members leaving the evil group, having a ministry with good morals turning their power towards evil. Having evil groups fighting other evil groups and having to draw the lines of morality, it was some of ArenaNet’s best writing to date in my mind.

Off topic, but there is one centaur who fought against Ugloth and was exiled to live with the humans. She claims most others were exiled as well when they even considered the war to be going nowhere. Ettins have one area where they are allied, grawl are varied completely, hylek are the same as grawl only more advanced, bandits say they did this only to feed families in a heart where you are disguised as one, and Nightmare is a “disease” according to Caithe, where Faolin literally poisoned her with nightmare in Edge of Destiny. So there are many grey areas in this.

I do not believe that physical deformities of the previous god necessarily follow on to the next being. At the very least, in my mind the statue located in Divinity’s Reach of Kormir looked much more like her rising from the “fires of torment” or something similar rather than tentacles coming off of her. There is obviously no show of this appearing in the statues created in GW1 or in her avatar, although this doesn’t mean that she doesn’t, it just means that we do not have any evidence of this change that I know of.

The problem with the last part of your theory is that the way that Thruln talks, he does not give enough time between the gods favoring the giants and the humans “arriving like grawl” for there to have been a change in the mantle of godhood. As for Melandru, as has been stated, it most likely refers to her bringing life back into once dragon-corrupted lands. The charr would not have been around long enough to know if she really made the world, so this is what makes the most sense in the situation we have.

Dustfinger.9510:

Your assumed timespans are equally arbitrary.

1. a good reason to leave
2. Or it implies they left.

You seem to ignore the point that developers have told us of when they arrived.

My timespans are arbitrary how? Are you sure you’re using the right word? Because it’s not based on my personal view or on a whim or the like.

We know for a fact that:

1. The Six Gods predate humanity “but not by much” (source)
2. The Six Gods brought humanity after the writing of the Tome of the Rubicon and the mursaat/seer war (source) – which in turn we know for a fact was either during or after the last ED rise.
3. The last ED rise is hinted to be at ~10,000 BE or ~2,000 BE (it’s never outright stated as a fact but two dates are implied – one as the Priory’s belief (when the GL died off in 10,000 BE (approx.) and there’s mention of dwarven civilization’s age being “over 2,000 years old” which would be odd if they’re 11,000 years+ old).
4. Dwayna was the first god to set foot on the world (source one, [url=Dwayna was the first to set foot on Orr, but Melandru is the eldest god.]source two[/url]), same source implies that both Balthazar and Melandru arrived after humanity, though this is just implications.
5. Finally, we know that the Six Gods – none of them – actually created the world.

We also know that:

1. While the charr have legends of Melandru creating Tyria, they also believe that legends of the Six Gods creating the world are “theological propaganda” (source) – one comes from a source written from an in-universe perspective (The Ecology of the Charr), the other comes from Jeff Grubb.
2. Charr did NOT exist during or before the last ED rise. The only survivors – known to us at least – would be mursaat, seer, jotun, dwarf, and Forgotten. The charr wouldn’t know except through others how the world was made – meaning that their legend was either made by themselves, or told to them. The likelihood of them making it themselves given their long standing view on gods seems as likely as Rurik claiming to have been Elonian.
3. The Forgotten are said to have been brought from the Mists by the Six Gods as well as humanity – and before humans. This would imply that the Six Gods came to Tyria during the Elder Dragons’ last rise, but after the mursaat fled the world.

All this points to the legend the charr hold not being truth (fact), and that it doesn’t predate humanity on Tyria (as Melandru doesn’t predate humanity on Tyria by implications), and furthermore that the Six Gods came to Tyria for the first time after the Elder Dragons’ previous rise (but not necessarily their hibernation – as said, it seems they arrived during the rise, and perhaps distanced themselves thus leaving themselves unknowing to where Zhaitan went to sleep, though this is speculation at its finest).

Beetle.2476:

They seem to have the same sort of physical deformities as the previous ones like the tentacles on Kormir in Divinities Reach.

There are no tentacles. Are you referring to those two spots on her head? Those are wings – specifically part of the head piece she wore as a human. Or do you mean the wave-like things around her? They look nothing like tentacles anyways.

Beetle.2476:

Thruln’s legends would then correspond with the human legends, as they could have favored giants in a past life, but then brought humans to Tyria in different forms. Melandru was most likely the same being previously, due to the charr myths. She “made” Tyria the way it is today.

But Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru came from the mists – and as gods. This was the first time the Six Gods walked on Tyria. I don’t think that’d be the case. It’d be extremely unlikely, especially the Melandru bit since she was the third of the Sixto walk on Tyria.

It isn’t impossible, but honestly, it’s just too unlikely.

Beetle.2476:

Off topic, but there is one centaur who fought against Ugloth and was exiled to live with the humans. She claims most others were exiled as well when they even considered the war to be going nowhere. Ettins have one area where they are allied, grawl are varied completely, hylek are the same as grawl only more advanced, bandits say they did this only to feed families in a heart where you are disguised as one, and Nightmare is a “disease” according to Caithe, where Faolin literally poisoned her with nightmare in Edge of Destiny. So there are many grey areas in this.

Ettins, grawl, and hyleks aren’t really an enemy faction. The centaur is my point – also, he. And he’s the sole outcast, unless there’s a new centaur somewhere (you’re referring to the scholar one in Lion’s Arch, correct?).

Bandits are a tricky one. They’re the most gray, but still you only get a very very select handful who aren’t “kill, maim, kitten pillage!” generic foes. And those that aren’t such are “the queen’s a tyrant!” mindwashed folk.

The nightmare isn’t really a disease, but it’s removable if it hasn’t taken root is all. But the Nightmare Court are far from gray. Like I said, there might be one to four folks, but never that many more. Bandits have the most with, I think, 5.

Narcemus.1348:

At the very least, in my mind the statue located in Divinity’s Reach of Kormir looked much more like her rising from the “fires of torment” or something similar rather than tentacles coming off of her.

Interesting interpretation. I always pictured it as being waves of power or something similar – something that represents her domain of spirit which she gained since the GW1 statues were made.

so you think it more lilely that the charr, a race who ws used to ruling tyria, when con=fronted with a race of humans who displaced them using the power of the gods behind them, decided to adopt the legend of one random human god to create the world they were already on when they reguard the gods of not worthy of worship but merely something to be destroyed? that makes more sense to you?

Beetle.2476:

…They seem to have the same sort of physical deformities as the previous ones like the tentacles on Kormir in Divinities Reach. These people may have existed beforehand, as different beings. …

Aren’t the “Tentacles” just the remains of Abaddon that Kormir was prevalent over after leading the heroes to defeat him, then absorbing his power to save all Tyria?

Dustfinger.9510:

so you think it more lilely that the charr, a race who ws used to ruling tyria, when con=fronted with a race of humans who displaced them using the power of the gods behind them, decided to adopt the legend of one random human god to create the world they were already on when they reguard the gods of not worthy of worship but merely something to be destroyed? that makes more sense to you?

The charr never ruled Tyria – nothing even says they’re older than humanity either, technically, just older than humans on continental Tyria (meaning they’re older than 205 BE – and humans were on Cantha for about 500 years since that point, and they came from somewhere else first, implied to be south of Cantha by Jeff Grubb). The only race said to have possibly done this was the jotun.

And I was thinking more along the lines of meeting dwarves or Forgotten – or even centaurs (we know some worship Balthazar) – who spread the legend (there are dwarves who, despite the race being older than the Six Gods on Tyria, worship Dwayna and Grenth, at the least).

the charr ruled their lands. they subjugated or destoyed all who were within their territory with only the forgotten being a comparable threat. You think they subjugated and destoyed but adopted the gods of others even theough they counted gods as enemies since the beginning of history? That one day they descided “Dwarves worship gods so even though they are our oldest enemy, let’s credit one of them with creating the world.”? Seems more likely that if they already had an ancient enemy then their legends involving that ancient enemy are probably just as ancient.

“Beginnings of history” typically means recorded history so that’s not saying much about a race that had been rather primitive in culture for a long time.

And also keep in mind that when humans beat back charr with the help of their gods, the charr began to believe that they needed gods of their own. I wouldn’t be surprised the legends originated from the Flame Legion which have always been the most religious of the race.

Actually that reference points out how they used to be primitive before they got organized. “The Charr were once a primitive people…. only surviving this brutal period by evolving into a strict hierarchical society.” So that means if this is written from a charr accounting then they have long been recording history. Which was long before the flame legion took over. In fact it says “Then, the humans came, an infestation caused by beings called gods that had been enemies to the Charr since the beginnings of history”. And goes on to say that they had no concept of divine beings but did know of melandru, they just didn’t deserve worship but to be destroyed. So this obviously isn’t flame legion propoganda.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

The reference states that the charr knew of Melandru. Whether or not they revered her as a god, they at least acknowledged her power. If the charr will not recognize a Khan-Ur that can keep themselves alive, then seeing gods as a target to be killed isn’t a departure from this form. The charr want to be the strongest, and killing anyone potentially stronger proves the point. So while they might hold that Melandru created the world (for what value that holds, separated by time and language), it doesn’t necessarily follow that they sought to worship.

I would suggest that the charr viewed the humans as weaker, both physically and culturally. So when the humans won, they see the source of their failure in the help of the six gods. Seeing weak humans strengthened so much by the aid of the gods, they then conclude that obtaining aid from gods will only make them so much stronger.

This suggests both that they didn’t know the Forgotten were servants and worshippers of the Six, or believed that their strength was innate and not granted by any god.

You should read the third paragraph, Dustfinger:

“With dominance, however, came the inevitable problems. Internal strife, reckless power-mongering, and brutal feuds threatened to tear apart this otherwise secure empire. Only the strong personality of the Khan-Ur kept this ferocious and, yes, still-primitive race unified.”

And if you played GW1, you’ll see that they were still fairly primitive culture wise even then.

But to stop digressing and going off-topic of the original point. The legends are false and there are STILL no indications that point those legends predating humanity on the world of Tyria – before humanity on continental Tyria, perhaps, perhaps not, but nothing implies nor indicates the legends are older than the human race on the world.

Konig

I had a thought. What if the gods do pre-date everything. What if we take the cycle we have now replay it through out time in Tyria. ED’s get ready to awake, gods disappear, ED return to sleep gods reappear.

Now if this is the case, then history of different races would show this in talking about the gods arriving. (ED’s wiped out a lot of races) This is just something that popped into my head and I have no facts to back it up. (plus I was really tired so could make no sense). What if the gods disappear from the world because they know the ED’s would destroy their power. During the last ED’s rise, the gods found humans and decided to bring them to Tyria, which this is where we get this in the Orrian Scrolls.

As for the charr legends, we know Melrudru terra formed the land. If this is the case, then some of the early charr ancestors could have seen this and assumed in their primitive brains that she was creating the world. I can see how it would fit based on existing lore.

The problem is that we’re outright told that the Elder Dragons predate the Six Gods’ time on Tyria. And similarly, we’re told by devs that the Six Gods don’t predate humanity by much (“by much” being subjective though, and how they predate humanity isn’t clear whether it’s about the time on Tyria, or existing as a whole), so they couldn’t be several thousands years older than humanity on Tyria.

Furthermore, the Six Gods physically leaving the world has nothing to do with the Elder Dragons, as they left after the war with Abaddon that devastated a lot of the currently known world. The only possible tie with the Elder Dragons and their disappearance would be the silence of the gods – that is, the stopping of communications.

What you’re saying of the charr legends is exactly what I was saying, in fact – minus the “primitive brains” part (I’d rather go with “primitive culture” :P). I would furthermore put that as why humans believed the gods created the world as well.

Konig,

Totally agree with you on the Charr legends and Human Legends. I think we have talked about that in another post before.

The other aspect of my post was more of something popping in my head when I was really tired. But it comes back to something we talked about in another post also. Like how we learned the human legends were false. I was just putting a what if out there because it is possible, it is just we don’t have the information to back it. (Most likely not, but it is a thought)

The Six Gods starting removing themselves from the world because they thought their influence was to much and things kept happening that they we kinda responsible for. I understand that. Would be nice if we could talk directly to one of the Six Gods and ask them questions about history and fill in the missing pieces that we don’t have. LOL

Well this may eventually happen with at least one ritual being able to summon a reaper of Grenth. I don’t know that the gods will all come barreling down, but we might get more information as we continue to travel around in Orr.

The difference between human legends and developer comments (where we get that Elder Dragons predate the Six Gods, and where we get that the Six Gods aren’t much older than humanity) is that one is subjective while the other is objective – respectively.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You should read the third paragraph, Dustfinger:

“With dominance, however, came the inevitable problems. Internal strife, reckless power-mongering, and brutal feuds threatened to tear apart this otherwise secure empire. Only the strong personality of the Khan-Ur kept this ferocious and, yes, still-primitive race unified.”

And if you played GW1, you’ll see that they were still fairly primitive culture wise even then.

But to stop digressing and going off-topic of the original point. The legends are false and there are STILL no indications that point those legends predating humanity on the world of Tyria – before humanity on continental Tyria, perhaps, perhaps not, but nothing implies nor indicates the legends are older than the human race on the world.

i read that. You should read my last answer more carefully. They were still primitive and they had a recorded history that refered to the gods as “ancient”. recorded history being your point so it was also the point I was speaking to. So either it was from a charr accounting ans they had recorded history or it is from a Gods-eye-view and it still wouldn’t be a product of flame legion propoganda. So i suppose it is possible for the gods to have come to tyria (the world) for the first time with humanity. Then travel to the charr without humanity and interact with them in such a way as to be labled enemies from ancient times. This would roughly make human and charr the same age since melandru was known to the charr since the beginning of their own history. Then that would also mean that humans were reletivly ancient on tyria the world, before they came to tyria the continent.

But this all really depends on the specific history behind the gods.

The jotun does talk about humans coming over on boats to Tyria. Maybe they were guided by the gods and were not true aliens. However, going back to the main topic, could the gods powers have existed before humans were brought? Melandru was known by charr beforehand supposedly, so maybe they work in a sort of cycle, New gods replacing every few thousand years like Kormir did, while Melandru managed to survive and remain a God. The charr could remember her, and assume the others are gods as well. I did say silent, not disappeared Kong.

Beetle.2476:

However, going back to the main topic, could the gods powers have existed before humans were brought? Melandru was known by charr beforehand supposedly, so maybe they work in a sort of cycle, New gods replacing every few thousand years like Kormir did, while Melandru managed to survive and remain a God. The charr could remember her, and assume the others are gods as well.

This is what I lean towards.

@Dustfinger.9510: Knowing something doesn’t really mean it’s recorded – though you may simply mean having knowledge of history, written history always comes after oral tradition and the charr being still primitive and even in GW1 their writing system limited to a case of ideograms that mean concepts rather than letters or words, their ancient history is likely only known through oral tales being passed on. Which leads to much alterations (hence, I would presume, why the Ecology of the Charr states the Khan-Ur’s assassins are unknown given other places stating it was humans).

So i suppose it is possible for the gods to have come to tyria (the world) for the first time with humanity. Then travel to the charr without humanity and interact with them in such a way as to be labled enemies from ancient times. This would roughly make human and charr the same age since melandru was known to the charr since the beginning of their own history.

That’d be most likely given how the Six Gods lived on Orr before humanity traveled there by ship (even though that seems to be where humans were brought to the world – I suppose the gods then took them south in whole for xyz reason).

And just to note: recorded history (or even known history) != age of the race

Beetle.2476:

The jotun does talk about humans coming over on boats to Tyria. Maybe they were guided by the gods and were not true aliens.

The timeline is basically this, according to current records:

- Dwayna arrives on the world at The Artesian Waters
- Dwayna brings humanity and the other gods somewhere in/near Arah
- Something happens in which humanity leaves Arah on a whole, indications pointing to them being places somewhere south of Cantha (Luxon legends point to it being a continent across the ocean, Jeff Grubb said that the original human homeland “may” be somewhere south of Elona and Cantha).
- In 786 BE, humans arrive on the northern shorts of Cantha and then into the Echovald Forest and Jade Sea later.
- In 205 BE, humans arrive via boats on Orr, Istan, and Kourna.

Beetle.2476:

However, going back to the main topic, could the gods powers have existed before humans were brought? Melandru was known by charr beforehand supposedly, so maybe they work in a sort of cycle, New gods replacing every few thousand years like Kormir did, while Melandru managed to survive and remain a God. The charr could remember her, and assume the others are gods as well. I did say silent, not disappeared Kong.

They did, but not by much, I repeat for the nth time. This is a fact stated by Jeff Grubb – and I’ll link the source again for you. They didn’t exist for thousands of years on the world before bringing humanity to the world. Nothing gives an indication for the legend’s age – and even then, given how it’s false it could have been made at any time. We don’t even know how old the charr race is.

“The Dragons, as we said, have always been here. The gods predate the humans, but not by much. Much of what we know about Glint comes from Glint herself. The truth of the matter may be very different, and she has her own reasons for saying what she has said.”

http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Dustfinger.9510: Knowing something doesn’t really mean it’s recorded – though you may simply mean having knowledge of history, written history always comes after oral tradition and the charr being still primitive and even in GW1 their writing system limited to a case of ideograms that mean concepts rather than letters or words, their ancient history is likely only known through oral tales being passed on. Which leads to much alterations (hence, I would presume, why the Ecology of the Charr states the Khan-Ur’s assassins are unknown given other places stating it was humans).

That would be an extremly big presumption. My presumption is that an ancient enemy that “had been enemies since the beginning of history” wich implies a continuous interaction, would be as acurate as a written record of something they only experienced in the past. But since we don’t know how long they had those ideograms they may well date back to that time. So there really is no reason to assume “much alteration” unless you really don’t want to believe the idea that the charr had interacted with the gods prior to meeting humanity.

That’d be most likely given how the Six Gods lived on Orr before humanity traveled there by ship (even though that seems to be where humans were brought to the world – I suppose the gods then took them south in whole for xyz reason).

i wouldn’t say it’d be most likely becasue if them being in orr was the case of their interaction then that interaction would also have included humanity prior to their travel to continental tyria.

And just to note: recorded history (or even known history) != age of the race

It gives us a minimum age. That minimum age is what i was refering to.

WHere’s the big presumption exactly? Because it isn’t that all recorded history of a culture begins with oral tradition – because stories are told when a means of communication is developed, and usually the alphabet comes after the spoken language. And in the charr’s case, they never had an alphabet. Just, as I said, ideograms which simply gave vague concepts rather than words – and these ideograms were used even in GW1’s time.

Furthermore, you seem to be misinterpreting me. Because I’m not arguing that the charr never interacted with the gods prior to meeting humanity. I’m simply stating that there is no evidence to point to the specific legend of Melandru existing before humanity thrived on the world – which was your original argument, and you were using that argument to argue that the legend is truthful (which it isn’t, as I have pointed out multiple times).

Dustfinger.9510:

i wouldn’t say it’d be most likely becasue if them being in orr was the case of their interaction then that interaction would also have included humanity prior to their travel to continental tyria.

You’re using too many pronouns, it makes your sentence ineligible.

If I’m correct, what you’re saying can be read as:

I wouldn’t say it’d be most likely because if the gods being in Orr was the case of the gods’ and charr’s interaction then that interaction would have included humanity prior to the humans’ boat travel to continental Tyria.

In which case: No, it wouldn’t. Because the charr come from east of the Blazeridge originally, which is a far cry from Orr. Even Ascalon is a good distance away, should the charr have conquered that land by the time the Six Gods arrived on the world.

And just to note: recorded history (or even known history) != age of the race

It gives us a minimum age. That minimum age is what i was refering to.

And what’s the minimum age? You got nothing because no minimum age is known.

We don’t know how old the charr as a race are. Nor do we know how old the legend is.
We don’t know when the charr and the gods first met. Nor do we know when the charr and Forgotten first met, nor when the charr and humans first met.
We don’t know when the Six Gods came to the world, or when the humans or even Forgotten (if the human legends of them being brought by the gods is true) did.
We don’t know when the Elder Dragons went to sleep.
We don’t know how far back the charr’s “recorded” history goes.

There is no timeline with these things, just an order of events – nothing more. And even then, some order of events is misplaced with the rest.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

WHere’s the big presumption exactly? Because it isn’t that all recorded history of a culture begins with oral tradition – because stories are told when a means of communication is developed, and usually the alphabet comes after the spoken language. And in the charr’s case, they never had an alphabet. Just, as I said, ideograms which simply gave vague concepts rather than words – and these ideograms were used even in GW1’s time.

Your specifically labled presumption is pretty big.

Furthermore, you seem to be misinterpreting me. Because I’m not arguing that the charr never interacted with the gods prior to meeting humanity. I’m simply stating that there is no evidence to point to the specific legend of Melandru existing before humanity thrived on the world – which was your original argument, and you were using that argument to argue that the legend is truthful (which it isn’t, as I have pointed out multiple times).

it seems you’re misinterpreting me. i’ve already stated a scenario where your interpretation is correct. My point is not that melandru created the world. We know she didn’t. That’s not even a question. What I am saying is that given the information, it absolutly is possible that melandru existed on tyria before bringing humanity. As well as being possible that she didn’t. so up till now, I think, i’ve examined how both interpretations could have worked.

Dustfinger.9510:

In which case: No, it wouldn’t. Because the charr come from east of the Blazeridge originally, which is a far cry from Orr. Even Ascalon is a good distance away, should the charr have conquered that land by the time the Six Gods arrived on the world.

This is a valid point.

And what’s the minimum age? You got nothing because no minimum age is known.

oh, I have something. Are you not following the conversation? The minimum age would be reletively ancient for both human and charr. It’s all up there. feel free to give it a once over.

We don’t know how old the charr as a race are. Nor do we know how old the legend is.
We don’t know when the charr and the gods first met. Nor do we know when the charr and Forgotten first met, nor when the charr and humans first met.
We don’t know when the Six Gods came to the world, or when the humans or even Forgotten (if the human legends of them being brought by the gods is true) did.
We don’t know when the Elder Dragons went to sleep.
We don’t know how far back the charr’s “recorded” history goes.

There is no timeline with these things, just an order of events – nothing more. And even then, some order of events is misplaced with the rest.

Bingo! Which is the exact point of my examination of the possibilities. as I also stated in one of my examinations, “But this all really depends on the specific history behind the gods.”

My presumption upon why the Ecology of the Charr doesn’t specify the Khan-Ur’s assassins as humans but rather speculates and states it’s unknown is rather irrelevant to the topic.

If Melandru was on the world before humans, it wasn’t a long time. So there’s really nothing to argue for the legend being older than humanity since we can’t even give a timeframe for how long it was between Dwayna and humanity coming. But indications argue that humanity came before/with Melandru and Balthazar after Dwayna.

Define “relatively ancient” – you know that 100 years can be considered ancient, right? So to can 100,000 years. It gives no proper timeframe at all. “ancient” – and even moreso “relatively ancient” – can literally be meaning 10,000 BE to 205 BE. That’s no minimum age!

What “Bingo” – you’re only agreeing to my point about how there is no minimum age indicated at all by saying “Bingo!”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

My presumption upon why the Ecology of the Charr doesn’t specify the Khan-Ur’s assassins as humans but rather speculates and states it’s unknown is rather irrelevant to the topic.

Then why state it? becasue it seemed to me that you were trying to use that baseless presumtion to discredit the stated history of the charr.

If Melandru was on the world before humans, it wasn’t a long time. So there’s really nothing to argue for the legend being older than humanity since we can’t even give a timeframe for how long it was between Dwayna and humanity coming. But indications argue that humanity came before/with Melandru and Balthazar after Dwayna.

I’m not even the one argueing. An arguement would require me taking a position. What I’ve done is examine both sides.

Define “relatively ancient” – you know that 100 years can be considered ancient, right? So to can 100,000 years. It gives no proper timeframe at all. “ancient” – and even moreso “relatively ancient” – can literally be meaning 10,000 BE to 205 BE. That’s no minimum age!

i don’t need to give an exact age. i take the information for what it is and work with it. this straw man requiring me to asign some arbitrary number to an unknown factor is nonsense.

What “Bingo” – you’re only agreeing to my point about how there is no minimum age indicated at all by saying “Bingo!”

The “at all” is where we differ. It provides relative timeframes wich is something.

That was just one of my hundreds of millions random tangents I get into – hence why it was in parentheses.

More like you took two sides when there’s more than two, and I’ve been trying to show you the rest.

No, you don’t need to give an exact age. The problem is that there isn’t even any form of basis of an age other than timeless events (that is, events which we don’t know when they took place). If that’s your point, then you bring nothing up at all and you’re saying words with no true purpose behind them as you’re just saying “this legend exists!” – even though originally you were arguing something very different.

You keep on using the word relative. Relatively ancient. Relative timeframes. But there is no timeframe given. Why? Because the “timeframes” you’re using are dateless events – as I said – thus can literally happen at any time. Prior to 205 BE, that is, which you’re saying we have a timeframe that’s prior to such, and if you’re not and saying that 205 is that “minimum age” then you’ve been literally spouting words over nothing at all. And, for the record, originally your posts weren’t talking about such things.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That was just one of my hundreds of millions random tangents I get into – hence why it was in parentheses.

hence why I’ve stated to you in the past that discussing things with you is so exhausting. I never know what your real point is becasue you’ll argue it to the death untill you finally reveal that it was just a side tangent. So multiple posts go by before we can get to the real purpose. i feel like it wastes both of our time.

More like you took two sides when there’s more than two, and I’ve been trying to show you the rest.

Another tangent of how you think I took two sides? let’s just list all these multiple sides so we don’t get into any more tangents and we can actually discuss lore.

No, you don’t need to give an exact age. The problem is that there isn’t even any form of basis of an age other than timeless events (that is, events which we don’t know when they took place). If that’s your point, then you bring nothing up at all and you’re saying words with no true purpose behind them as you’re just saying “this legend exists!” – even though originally you were arguing something very different.

if you don’t value relative timetables, feel free not to discuss them. i value them because htey are another piece of the lore puzzle.

You keep on using the word relative. Relatively ancient. Relative timeframes. But there is no timeframe given. Why? Because the “timeframes” you’re using are dateless events – as I said – thus can literally happen at any time. Prior to 205 BE, that is, which you’re saying we have a timeframe that’s prior to such, and if you’re not and saying that 205 is that “minimum age” then you’ve been literally spouting words over nothing at all. And, for the record, originally your posts weren’t talking about such things.

See above. some people can think in abstract terms like reletivity. Some can’t. I can so I use it. My posts reflect an examination. More examination developes as more points are brought in. that’s how a conversation works.

You took two sides (or as you said “both sides”) – thing is that there were more than two sides, as I thought I’ve shown already. There’s always at least three sides to a coin (heads, tails, and side – to explain the metaphor: one side’s truth, the other side’s truth, and the real truth).

Timetable != timeframes

What it seems that you’re wanting to say is that we have an order of events – albeit a very loose one – but what you’re actually saying is that we have a time frame for a specific event. What you’re saying is that we have a set number of years which an event occurred between – this is what we don’t have. As I’ve said, and it’s got nothing to do with my preference or what I value, nor is it about me not thinking abstractly (though TBH, timetables are not abstract). What we have is – as I’ve said – a loose order of events.

So with this post, you’re now agreeing with my own posts that was disagreeing with your former posts. slow claps

“Another tangent………… let’s just list all these multiple sides so we don’t get into any more tangents and we can actually discuss lore.”

Go read my previous posts, as I’m tired of repeating myself.

I feel that you’re changing your stance with each post now.

Got it. In lengthy conversation it is often necesary to reaffirm the points of that conversation. especially when one of the members tends to make “Hundreds of millions of tangents”. I’ve read them. I saw nothing to indicate you ever tried to “show me the other options”. The fact that you can’t even make a simple list of redressing your primary points in the midst of your “hundreds of millions of tangents” is very telling.