Guild Wars 2

Dustfinger.9510:

Got it. In lengthy conversation it is often necesary to reaffirm the points of that conversation. especially when one of the members tends to make “Hundreds of millions of tangents”. I’ve read them. I saw nothing to indicate you ever tried to “show me the other options”. The fact that you can’t even make a simple list of redressing your primary points in the midst of your “hundreds of millions of tangents” is very telling.

I think I’ve only made one tangent in this whole discussion.

Here’s a summary of the discussion as I see it:

1. You make the postulation that Melandru could have been on the world long before Dwayna and humans, thus being seen by charr for the legend to come to pass – you argue this due to the postulation that godhood was around in Tyria much longer than the Six Gods were (exempting Melandru due to said legend).
2. I disagree and bring up the Orrian History Scrolls which point to Dwayna coming to the world first, bringing humanity directly and that indications give that humans came before or at the same time Melandru did.
3. You then said the legend is likely older than humanity on the world.
4. I question why you make this speculation, given how there’s no need nor indication of a false legend predating humanity.
5. You claim me saying the legend is false was arbitrary, and ask why doubt the charr’s legend and not the human’s legend.
6. I state that we know the legend’s false and it’s not me acting arbitrarily.
7. You backtrack in agreement with me saying we know Melandru didn’t create the world, but that we don’t know if Melandru was on Tyria before the other Six.
8. I explain that we know the Six Gods’ time on Tyria does not predate humanity by much, and all knowledge points to only Dwayna being certain to predate humanity on Tyria. I then tried to backtrack to the original point you made – that Melandru was around during the Bloodstone’s creation, an argument you were holding for Thruln the Lost’s tale to be somewhat truthful with the jotun viewing the gods as having taken away magic, and I immediately point to why that’s extremely unlikely (even though it’s not quite impossible).
9. You called my argument arbitrary again, giving little explanation besides two fragment sentences of why they would have left if they were around during the Bloodstone’s creation.
10. I give sources for how we know that the gods weren’t on Tyria during the Elder Dragons’ rise – or at least not until the very end of it.
11. You then twist my argument with a silly claim that I think it’s more reasonable that the charr, who ruled Tyria, made a legend about their enemies’ goddess.
12. I explain that’s not what I argued and present a different possibility. As well as attempted to dispell some misconceptions you had about the charr.
13. You disagree with my alternative, twisting it to the negative extreme while bringing up wording from The Ecology of the Charr.
14. I talked about the meaning behind those wordings, including how recorded history only goes so far back especially for primitive people, and explained why the charr would start legends about their rivals’ gods.
15. You bring in other wordings in an attempt to disprove me, saying that at the time the charr were no longer primitive.
16. I point out another line from the Ecology which said they were still primitive even later, and brought up GW1 examples for how they could still be viewed such by GW1’s time.
17. You said you read the line I brought up and told me to re-read your previous post because “They were still primitive and they had a recorded history that refered to the gods as “ancient”.” – though that held no relevance in the matter at all of my post you were responding to.

And from there, I think it’s recent enough to not bother summarizing.

Your argument (and yes, you are holding a stance thus you are arguing – or debating if you want to use a “kinder” term) literally went from “the jotun viewed Melandru and other gods, predecessors of the current ones, as their gods and those gods took magic from them during the time of the Bloodstone’s original making. We know this because Melandru’s in a charr legend.” to … you know what, I’m not even sure what you’re arguing anymore. That we know a rough point of reference between events of unknown dates for when the Six Gods arrived on Tyria? That wasn’t even relevant at the beginning of this discussion and was never questioned!

Lately, you’ve just been calling me as having tangents, telling me you’re stating both sides of the argument, and refusing to respond to me with anything more than comments that beat around the bush (so to speak).

You’re just arguing about my means of talking now and how I debate, not your actual point itself – let alone original one – anymore.

(stupid character limit)

Want my points? Very well. In order of bringing them up:

1. Nothing points to the Six Gods’ mantle existing on the world prior to Dwayna’s arrival. Let alone the Six Gods being around during the Bloodstone’s creation (closest would be at the end of the ED reign, which would still likely be after the Bloodstone’s creation – this depends on the true origin of the Forgotten).
2. Nothing points to Melandru being on the world longer than Dwayna – and in fact, everything points against such. Little points to Melandru being on the world longer than humanity, and next to nothing for “much longer.”
3. There is no indication of the charr race’s age or the legend’s age. Similarly, neither of these two things give any point of reference for time frames or orderings of events.

My idea is the fact that the six gods have their own issues in their respective realms of the mists. Furthermore they have learned what their power can do to Tyria. I mean just their fight with abbadon caused catastrophic damage. If the six gods were to fight the elder dragons tyria would probably rip in half due to their powers clashing. I see the gods as powerful beings who sought to make Tyria better, and they did what they could and we are now on our own.

On another hand i believe the elder dragons are a necessary cycle, the dragons radiate magic and civilizations build around that power. However these civilizations continue to fight with one another and to protect the world the elder dragons rise. They corrupt those around them turning their very magic against them. They destroy these civilizations allowing new ones to continue the cycle and grow after they have gone to sleep.

Minor Spoiler
The difference this time is we had warning, races survived due to the forgotten intervening since their power was immune to corruption. My theory is that because they came from the mists they were unique. The dwarves and guildwars 1 character bought us time and we advanced much further then previous races. We are becoming united and due to the use of bloodstones magic is much more controlled then in the past.

And ad hominem attacks are a last resort.

@Thomas: We’re told by Priestess Rhie that the gods can’t be found within the Mists – hence why we don’t know where they are. They seem to be on another world, beyond the Mists (if not just simply gone).

Also, Elder Dragons do NOT radiate magic. They consume magic. The magic they “produce” is corrupted and thus unusable without side-effects of minion-ification by sentient life. And fun fact: the civilizations built around Elder Dragons tend to be less hostile – Orr, for example, was the most peaceful of all human civilizations to date, and the asura have no known sentient rivalries beyond the skritt.

Sorry to to tell you this, but in guildwars 1 vekk clearly states the reason their central transfer chamber is where it is, if for the mere fact that what they believed was a statue was bleeding raw magic. This statue is confirmed to be primordious. In Arah exploitable it is learned the gods unknownly infused the blood stones with some of zhaitans power since Arah was build Ontop of him. Don’t bold something before confirming it lol.

Thomas,

Dragons don’t radiate magic, they bleed magic while they are a sleep. There is a difference there. The magic they bleed can be used, as the dragon itself isn’t using it to corrupt as my understanding is. This is why Orr wasn’t corrupted before hand, and why the asura weren’t corrupted.

@hjorje even the gw1 official wiki says primordious radiated magic, also Destroyers aren’t corruption he shapes his minions that’s why. Jormags lieutenant was able to corrupt joras brother and he wasn’t even awake yet. again semantics and we have no idea if in gw1 zhaitan may have played a role in the undead rising after Orr was sundered during the cataclysm… It could be a coincidence or in his sleep his influence helped create even more undead. But when an entire city was plunged into the sea by the Vizer who was influenced by abbadons the god of secrets and undead began rising. Seeing how it was built on a undead dragon it may or may not be a coincendence, or it could of just been the scepter orrs power.. Who knows just speculation.

Very true. But the one thing that always makes me think the magic they bleed (radiated) isn’t corrupted is the fact the 6 Gods used some of it by accident, the asura built the Central Transfer Chamber because of it, but no one was corrupted. I think the magic coming from them is different then the magic they use when awake to corrupt or create their minions.

Thomas.5078:

Sorry to to tell you this, but in guildwars 1 vekk clearly states the reason their central transfer chamber is where it is, if for the mere fact that what they believed was a statue was bleeding raw magic. This statue is confirmed to be primordious. In Arah exploitable it is learned the gods unknownly infused the blood stones with some of zhaitans power since Arah was build Ontop of him. Don’t bold something before confirming it lol.

Sorry to tell you this but play the bloody storyline – and pay attention.

Elder Dragons eat magic. Fact.
Primordus – and Primordus alone as far as we know – radiated magic while hibernating.
The Six Gods, unknowingly, drew power from Zhaitan the same way Svanir drew power from Drakkar – it was not the Elder Dragon/champion radiating magic.
Arah was built atop of the Artesian Waters which is powerful magic in of itself – it’s also what drew the Six Gods to the world. Zhaitan’s presence under Arah was coincidence.

Some personal storyline missions you may find helpful: What the Eye Beholds and Cathedral of Silence – the former states Zhaitan consumes magic, the latter states that the Six Gods were drawn to the Artesian Waters because of it is highly magical, it is the source of Orr’s natural magic and water (however, this is mentioned in NPC dialogue boxes so it’s not only often missed, but isn’t on GW2W. Furthermore Honor of the Waves explorable has Jormag’s minions going after kodan magical artifacts.

So I must say to you “Don’t bold something before confirming it. lol” Cuz I did kittening confirm it.

Thomas.5078:

Destroyers aren’t corruption he shapes his minions that’s why.

All Elder Dragon magic corrupts. Primordus is corrupting the land and fire, turning it into living breathing creatures. ALL ELDER DRAGONS CORRUPT – it’s just how they choose to corrupt that differs.

Thomas.5078:

we have no idea if in gw1 zhaitan may have played a role in the undead rising after Orr was sundered during the cataclysm…

Except that Jeff Grubb explicitly told us that the Cataclysm had no effect on Zhaitan whatsoever. Furthermore, Orr does not have a history of undead – if it really was Zhaitan’s influence creating undead during the Cataclysm then 1) it would have affected him in some means or 2) undead would be a long standing natural occurrence in Orr. Furthermore, the GW1 Orrian undead do not have the Risen mentality, which is present in dragon minions irregardless of the Elder Dragon’s awake status.

Thomas.5078:

or it could of just been the scepter orrs power.

No, it wasn’t. Know how I know? It doesn’t make undead – just controls spirits (and in turn Titans and, possibly, undead) – if that.

Most likely the undead of Orr from GW1 were either creations of the Lich Lord himself, or were the by-products of the cataclysm magic. Either way they were tied to the Lich Lord, and as I stated in another topic, the Lich Lord did not have the mentality of a Dragon Champion in any way shape or form.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

(stupid character limit)

Want my points? Very well. In order of bringing them up:

1. Nothing points to the Six Gods’ mantle existing on the world prior to Dwayna’s arrival. Let alone the Six Gods being around during the Bloodstone’s creation (closest would be at the end of the ED reign, which would still likely be after the Bloodstone’s creation – this depends on the true origin of the Forgotten).
2. Nothing points to Melandru being on the world longer than Dwayna – and in fact, everything points against such. Little points to Melandru being on the world longer than humanity, and next to nothing for “much longer.”
3. There is no indication of the charr race’s age or the legend’s age. Similarly, neither of these two things give any point of reference for time frames or orderings of events.

Now we’re on track. What is the other options that you are trying to show me, other than the two I’ve alrewady identified? You said this was your point so where in that list is the other option?

Way to backtrack. So much time passed that my line of thought has completely been forgotten. So without wasting a bunch of time re-reading, again, all those posts I don’t remember.

However, if you read the previous post before the one you quoted, I’m not even sure what your “both sides” are. Hell, I don’t think there was ever an opposing “side” you mentioned.

Funny how you constantly question me, but never explain yourself.

Backtrack? My last three posts have been this exact thing becasue I’m trying to stay on track of your stated point. But clearly it isn’t what you said it was. That’s probably the reason for all your tangents. you drive them to divert the point. Then go on to conveniently claim that re-reading all of your own diverted posts is too tedious. so.. about that main point of yours…..

It’s been five days since I made that post, after the subject had been changed, hence why I called it backtracking.

And I haven’t gone on any tangents.

I also notice how you still haven’t answer my question from five days ago.

But whatever, clearly you have no intention of continuing the discussion and would rather just blame it all on “my” so called “tangents.”

Gods are space aliens who came to tyria and brought humans their slave race to mine for gold and minerals.

The dragons had fallen asleep when the gods arrive.

The gods are not communicating to the humans anymore coz they hella scared of dragons.

Look at Dhuum, he was a god, you compare his size to the size of the dragon’s lieutenant, hes still a small fry, compared to a full grown dragon like Zhaitan, Gods are insignificant specks compared to dragons and don’t go saying gods have magic powers and all that, dragons do too, Zhaitan rose a freaking sunken nation out of the water and had hordes of undead minions.

Kralkatrorik found glint’s one grain of sand in the countless of other grains of sand in the crystal desert and killed her.

Human gods are outmatched and outgunned by the dragons and they know it.

In favour of self preservation the gods have retreated to their personal luxury spaceship looking down at the chaos and turmoil brewing in tyria.

@Konig Des Todes

Obviously from your posts you seem to be highly defensive and saying things that are speculation are fact. I never said orr or scepter caused undead just that it had influence, i never said that zhaitan caused the cataclysm just that his magic might of amplified it. you take things people say and twist them then beat them over instead of having healthy discussion. And primordius i was pretaining to he doesnt corrupt races, since that was the post i was replying to. the post had no direction towards you. All of it was just speculation. Please stop acting like you know every single thing about the lore as fact.

Rizzy.8293:

Look at Dhuum, he was a god, you compare his size to the size of the dragon’s lieutenant, hes still a small fry, compared to a full grown dragon like Zhaitan, Gods are insignificant specks compared to dragons and don’t go saying gods have magic powers and all that, dragons do too, Zhaitan rose a freaking sunken nation out of the water and had hordes of undead minions.

Kralkatrorik found glint’s one grain of sand in the countless of other grains of sand in the crystal desert and killed her.

Dhuum is a fallen god, so his size isn’t really worthy of comparison usage. Better to use Abaddon, who was much bigger than Dhuum.

Also, Glint wasn’t in a single grain of sand, but rather an illusionary magic – the “single grain of sand” legend was to detract folks from realizing the real situation, which was simply that only those who realize it’s hidden by illusionary magic could find Glint’s sanctuary.

@Thomas: You seem to have misunderstood me. I was stating that the Scepter of Orr held no influence on the undead (or their making), and that neither did Zhaitan have any connection to the Cataclysm at all (I know very well that it was caused by the Lost Scrolls, tyvm) given all our knowledge.

And I don’t act like I know every single thing about GW’s lore. Nor have I ever claimed or believed I do. But I will admit that when you insulted me stating I was wrong with a rather rude attitude – or at least rude word choice – when it was you who was wrong. Also, Primordus was pertaining to your response to my post, since you used him for your argument that Elder Dragons produce/radiate magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s been five days since I made that post, after the subject had been changed, hence why I called it backtracking.

And I haven’t gone on any tangents.

I also notice how you still haven’t answer my question from five days ago.

But whatever, clearly you have no intention of continuing the discussion and would rather just blame it all on “my” so called “tangents.”

Changing the subject is a tangent. When you refuse to speak to your stated subject for three posts, it’s not backtracking of me to stay on that subject. Especially if all my posts since where still speaking to that stated subject, calling for clarification. It’s actually me staying on track. So this is actually me continuing with the intention of continuing this dicussion. The discussion being your point, the same point you said was already being discussed.

1st page, fifth post up. I don’t answer your questions becasue I alsready told you It’s a waste of my time to speak to a point that isn’t even your stated purpose. That’s called a tangent.

So, about that stated point of yours. What is the other option? (This is still me staying on topic.)

You shouldn’t blame me for a “tangent” since if you actually read, you’d see I didn’t change the subject from what is already off-topic (and was, in fact, going back on topic). I responded to you and then you didn’t respond and the subject went back on topic, yet you derail once more with these same posts.

And you still don’t answer my question from this post – not “first page, fifth post up.”

And as I said, I cannot remember the other options because I can’t even figure out what your “both sides” are anymore – I feel if I try to point out the sides of a stance I no longer see I’ll just get told “you’re wrong” because I don’t think you ever had such a solid “both sides” but merely a conceptual thing.

Anyways, this is getting no where since you refuse to response to my inquiry about what your “both sides” are, so I won’t respond to you until you answer that. I’m tired of wasting my time.

I don’t think you ever had such a solid “both sides” but merely a conceptual thing

We went over this on the first page. i’ve told you just that. But you argued against it. what I said was: “I’m not even the one argueing. An arguement would require me taking a position. What I’ve done is examine both sides.” But you argued against it becasue you really needed for me to be “wrong” and you to be “right”.

“More like you took two sides when there’s more than two, and I’ve been trying to show you the rest.” – Konig. This is YOUR QUOTE from the first page. YOUR INTERPETATION How can you blame me for it? You’re the one that apparentlly had the answer to begin with. I’m just going with it and trying to get back on the lore by addressing your stated point.

But you refuse to address it becasue it was clearly never there. You said it was there but you couldn’t find it. Not becasue there is too many posts on that one page. But becasue it actually isn’t there. You said whatever you thought you had to becasue you thought it would make your argument stronger. And I’ve called you out on it. So now that you’ve acknowleged this as a waste of your time. Hopefully you won’t waste my time with this kind of nonsense again.

I see you continue to just meander about how I debate rather than answering the points themselves. And though you didn’t answer my previous question, I’ll humor you a bit more.

Your “both sides” (as far as I can tell):

1. “What I am saying is that given the information, it absolutly is possible that melandru existed on tyria before bringing humanity.”
2. “As well as being possible that she didn’t.”

This in the context of “the charr’s legend of Melandru creating the world predates humanity on the world.”

Other sides that I mentioned:

1. The legend doesn’t predate humanity on the world.
2. The legend doesn’t predate humanity on the continent.

Other sides that I did not mention:

1. The legend was changed over time, but the original predates Melandru’s existence on the world.

There’s more if I bother wracking my brain, but my point is that there’s more possibilities than simply “the legend’s older than humans” and “the legend’s not older than humans” – though it would be more clear if I said that there’s more specific situations than your “both sides” where you didn’t consider so many other possibilities.

So – I answered your query, which I was able to since you referred to a specific old post. Since I did t his, rather than arguing about my methodology, how about you actually keep to your own point.

Where the hell does the jotun come into this? Your original purpose of bringing up this legend – before you went off topic – was in argument that the jotun viewed her as a god during the Bloodstone’s creation’s time.

What exactly was your point in this seemingly senseless debate? And yes, by the way, you were arguing. The entire bloody time.

Wonderful! My point is this: To examine the possibilities. As I prefaced my fist post with “I’m not one to outright shoot a theory down but in the interest of refinement I’ll make a couple points.”

So The jotun come in exactlly as I said in relation to the OP. “So the giants may have reguarded the seers as gods. Or they knew that that magic was given by a god…” Nothign about the jotun viewing melandru as a god.

So we see how the possibilites are examined and I’m not actually taking a specific stance. see how much better this is whne we discuss the lore? And everyone will seem like they are initially arguing with you as long as you continue to come geared for war.

Eh, if you ask me, all your doing is now by exemplifying minor word choice that overall doesn’t mean what you’re now making it out to be (and what you’ve been doing since you brought up that “other side” in a hand-wave manner, actually) just covering your own kitten when you realize you’re terribly off and completely ignore your original points. At least that’s how it seems to me, and your constant refusal to return to your points while focus on how I argue rather than what I argue (and completely wrong at that with your constant false claims of tangents) only makes me think that more.

But I digress, as if this continues it’s just going to be a circle.

I actually supported it with my origional post. Can’t get much more origional in my points than an origional post, so……. clearly you’re flailing to save face.

I don’t really care about saving face though. If I’m wrong then I’m wrong and it’s as simple as that. However, there’s no reason for me to even try to save face. But this has digressed long enough.