Guild Wars 2

BrunoBRS.5178:

Wanderer.3248:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Where’s my norn focus? Charr focus? Human focus?

Good point.

I expect ley lines will be used to join it all together ;-)

like a present, all tied up

Hope we can still take it back afterwards… somebody got the receipt?

To be honest, in terms of combining the different lores so far you have to admit that the PS did a way better job.
Even after the initial race centred content we were using a lot of mythical items and magic, which were part of other races lore.
- priory evokes an Avatar of Balthazar to defend LA (I still want that power -_-)
- We use a searing cauldron to whipe out Zaithans army in Orr
- The spirits of the Norn, who were guiding a map/compass allowed us to find the tomb in Orr
- etc…

Jaken.6801:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Wanderer.3248:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Where’s my norn focus? Charr focus? Human focus?

Good point.

I expect ley lines will be used to join it all together ;-)

like a present, all tied up

Hope we can still take it back afterwards… somebody got the receipt?

To be honest, in terms of combining the different lores so far you have to admit that the PS did a way better job.
Even after the initial race centred content we were using a lot of mythical items and magic, which were part of other races lore.
- priory evokes an Avatar of Balthazar to defend LA (I still want that power -_-)
- We use a searing cauldron to whipe out Zaithans army in Orr
- The spirits of the Norn, who were guiding a map/compass allowed us to find the tomb in Orr
- etc…

waiwaiwaiwait, what was that first one? i don’t remember any avatars of balthazar

One of the Priory asura has a device that turns you in to an Avatar of Balthazar. It’s to defend the fishing village in Kessex Hills. You slaughter all sorts of risen with skills similar to the FGS.

Fluffball.8307:

One of the Priory asura has a device that turns you in to an Avatar of Balthazar. It’s to defend the fishing village in Kessex Hills. You slaughter all sorts of risen with skills similar to the FGS.

:O

why didn’t i get that story branch… probably because i went order of whispers >.>

Gixx’s dialogue always made me laugh in that mission. Lets all invoke the power of the human god of mass murder. If I remember correctly, the Priory got that idol that they used for the ritual from one of the Charr storylines. The gladium father I think?

The artifact was an Idol of Balthazar – there’s one involved with the charr gladium father storyline as well, though there you fight an Avatar of Balthazar rather than become.

Zayd Akira.1942:

The Eternal Alchemy doesn’t make the human gods or the norn spirits obsolete.
We know for a fact that the realms the human gods control are real. we’ve been there in gw1. Dwayna even controls a very specific realm which is equivalent to heaven, and thats where humans go for paradise and etc. etc. Because the eternal Alchemy is real doesnt mean that Dwayna and her paradise realm for dead humans isnt real. We know they are, from GW1.
The Eternal Alchemy just explains how the human gods fit into the universe, amoung other powerful beings like the pale tree, the dragons, and the norn spirits.

I don’t see how using the Asuran belief system to define the role of all other beliefs is not Asura Centric.

My main beef with the Eternal Alchemy is that it is might be an actual thing instead of a concept that’s just a fancy way of saying “the whole of existence in one grand Theory of Everything.”

sAdam.5876:

Dustfinger.9510:

Agreed. it’s our RL version of science. How does everything we know to exist interact with everything else. Since It would need to in some way shape or form then it can be studied as long as there are fairly constant rules. The ET is those rules and the idea behind those rules.

I still think Science is Science. Viewpoint of asures is known in real world as Holism. It’s just a philosophy, asuran scientific theory at best. Most races have got scholars, why only Asuran one have answer to it all.
Saying that everything is connected, is part of bigger design, is closest to our monotheist than anything else. Intelligent design, anybody?
I think viewpoint of just one race shouldn’t be considered vastly superior to any other. The same way Asurans and other are cautious when it comes to matter of Gods and Spirits, other races also shouldn’t take Eternal Alchemy as sure thing.

It seems pretty close to the Theory of Everything to me. Tyria knows for a fact that gods and magic exist. And the game has said that magic is a natural force.

So the idea of holism is behind the entire premise of modern science. Even before the term was coined. It’s why the hard science of math is applicable and base to almost every other field. Biology, psychology and sociology have so many over lapping components that the idea that they are independent systems is archaic.

The entire idea of the scientific method is based on the idea of holism. We take related knowns and use them to test unknowns. So two thinks that were thought to be previously unrelated are joined when the method proves a hypothesis correct.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

I don’t see how using the Asuran belief system to define the role of all other beliefs is not Asura Centric.

Because ‘asuran centric’ implies focus on asura related things at the expense of everyone else. But the belief is inherently all inclusive. So isn’t excluding anybody.

I know I’m putting up myself for a disappointment, but the ending cinematic actually gave me hope that the Eternal Alchemy is actually “lessened” in importance.

According to both the malleable, untrustworthy out-of-game lore and the holy, writer-blessed in-game canon, Scarlet saw the Eternal Alchemy in its entirety. If we saw the very same things Scarlet had seen, then we saw the Eternal Alchemy as well…

… and it was about the inner workings of Tyria only: dragons, magic, ley lines, Yggdrasil… erm… sorry, the Pale Tree. Nothing cosmic and universal. Just the designs of a single planet.

In which case, the importance of the gods is automatically upscaled by a lot. Not only does their influence span a multitude of worlds (human homeworld, Tyria, the ones legends say they went to create/terraform, etc.), but they have realms of their own inside the Mists, where the dead of all races(?) venture as souls to be judged and rewarded — or punished — as well as access to the Rift, which is said to be center of the universe where time stands still. And beside all that, they control elements, magic types (darkness, light, chaos, and so on), and higher concepts (life, death, nature, knowledge, etc.) as well, probably to the point where they have nigh unlimited dominion over their charges.

So yeah… there’s still some hope yet. Hope that those furless, arrogant rodents are incorrect at least for once. True, the gods might still be part of a Universal Eternal Alchemy, but they are cogs without which the entire system would fall apart.

I’m probably just deluded and dreaming that it was all true. Given the track record, however, we may yet see the day when the gods will turn out to be very powerful people who achieved near-immortality and are cosmic adventurers themselves…

Thalador.4218:

I know I’m putting up myself for a disappointment, but the ending cinematic actually gave me hope that the Eternal Alchemy is actually “lessened” in importance.

According to both the malleable, untrustworthy out-of-game lore and the holy, writer-blessed in-game canon, Scarlet saw the Eternal Alchemy in its entirety. If we saw the very same things Scarlet had seen, then we saw the Eternal Alchemy as well…

… and it was about the inner workings of Tyria only: dragons, magic, ley lines, Yggdrasil… erm… sorry, the Pale Tree. Nothing cosmic and universal. Just the designs of a single planet.

The cinematic starts with a ‘swimming’ journey through some fancy lights and mysterious bits and bobbins before you ‘warp’ toward the orb model. Presumably, those are non-Tyria related parts of the Eternal Alchemy.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The artifact was an Idol of Balthazar – there’s one involved with the charr gladium father storyline as well, though there you fight an Avatar of Balthazar rather than become.

Mhm, that might be.
You really fight it there?

Anyway, i was talking about the “defend LA” part of the priory storypart: "The Ghost Rite
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ghost_Rite

Sorry for the late answer, i was occopied with something else the last few days

Edit: Ah, the Idol you were talking about had a much deeper involvement, as your link suggests. Interesting, even though it shows the good and bad of the narrative of the PS (another story)

It bothers me a little bit, but not the fact that they call it Eternal Alchemy (which is really what they call the Universe imo) but the fact that every character who isn’t asura claims he/she saw it.

My Charr claims she saw eternal alchemy. A Charr. A race that believes in no higher power and has little worship for magic. We should be given an option in the conversations.

Standing there and reading my Charr blabbing about eternal alchemy like an asura felt weird as hell and totally out of character.

Agreed. I always picture Charrs more wiling to put Six Gods on their hit-list, than start prying to them/believing in them, or anything else to be exact. They might find idea of everything being part of big design entertaining, because of their prowess with machines but I can’t imagine them regarding Eternal Alchemy as something else than superstition.

CharrGirl.7896:

It bothers me a little bit, but not the fact that they call it Eternal Alchemy (which is really what they call the Universe imo) but the fact that every character who isn’t asura claims he/she saw it.

It’s more of a fancy way of identifying matter. What the asura advocate is that through all things, energy exists within. Whether you have a soul or not, living or dead, every fiber of your being is the collection of energy that takes form. So it would be more of a scientific way for them to understand the Mists – and frankly with the Fractals as evidence, they’re pretty spot on. But it’s more generic than anything. Kind of like how dark matter is proposed to exist through its affects on matter in a zero-G environment – we theorize it exists because for some reason some force is acting WITH gravity to pull things together.

Energy is the frame work, and the mists – infinitely pouring through these frames, represents the innards.

At least that’s my interpretation. Simple mysticism.

CharrGirl.7896:

It bothers me a little bit, but not the fact that they call it Eternal Alchemy (which is really what they call the Universe imo) but the fact that every character who isn’t asura claims he/she saw it.

My Charr claims she saw eternal alchemy. A Charr. A race that believes in no higher power and has little worship for magic. We should be given an option in the conversations.

Standing there and reading my Charr blabbing about eternal alchemy like an asura felt weird as hell and totally out of character.

Ahem. The Charr don’t disbelieve the existence of gods. They fully acknowledge that the other races’ deities exist, they just don’t think they’re worthy of worship, and don’t think they have authority.

Even the Asura don’t worship the Eternal Alchemy. If they do anything with it, it’s seek to master it for their own purposes.

I don’t see how the Eternal Alchemy being visible to everyone hurts any existing lore. All deities, organizations, races, and powers are a part of it. It’s the Unified Theory of Everything. It is, by its nature, all-inclusive. The only reason it “belongs” to the Asura is because they were the only race studying the world on such a “macro” level.

I haven’t played the original guild wars and any of Season 2, but if I recall, Tyria exist way before the Gods arrived right?

I don’t think the Gods have anything to do with the creation or history of Tyria (world). They didn’t even know (or at least mention) that elder dragons existed ( built a shrine on top of one) or even ‘created’ magic. More like harnessing it. The Asuras are natives to Tyria (?) and I think the eternal alchemy is their version of our the Big Bang. The Gods and their lore exists but what we’re finding out is not their story but the story of the actual world of Tyria (my opinion of course).

“that’s sacrilege! don’t you guys believe in some sort of alchemy?”

“that’s science. this is business. now cough up”

so yeah, while it is kinda odd to see non-asura rambling about seeing the eternal alchemy, our PCs did get a lot of background on what it’s supposed to be, and also that scarlet saw “the eternal alchemy” when stepping into the machine (which was described to them in detail, with pictures and everything), it’s not that odd. the eternal alchemy is also more a way of viewing things than a religion/belief. “everything is connected”. butterfly effect and all that.

The Eternal Alchemy is simply a way for the writers of GW2 to introduce a universal belief system into a multi-racial world of differing points of view. They saw the human god pantheon as too favored to humans, so went about the business of finding ways to minimize that view while promoting another, more inclusive, view.

As for why the Asuran’s seem to be the one’s that are the keepers of that new view is anyone’s guess, I suppose they had to pick one of them. Although, the characteristics of the Eternal Alchemy lend themselves to certain real-life science theories like the holism that Dustfinger proposes. And since Asura are all about math, it’s fairly academic that they should be the gatekeepers.

On a side note, did anyone else, while inside Omadd’s machine, think they were in an old Dr. Who episode? I couldn’t stop laughing…

I was thinking more along the lines of the finale from 2001: A space Odysee… You know, if we find some black pillars again like in Kourna we got our answer

Well, while I do agree that even Scarlet mentioned the Eternal Alchemy and she was a Sylvari, I cant help but feel weirded out by it. I understand its not a religion, but more of a universal pseudo-scientific fact, just like in our world, however it still feels odd for a Charr to say it. You don’t think if you went back to Black Citadel and started raving about what you saw in some crazy Asuran machine that they wouldn’t think you went bonkers? Even use of magic is frowned upon in Charr society, let alone a whole Asuran ideology.

I think its not unreasonable to be offered multiple dialogue options, even if they lead to same conclusions. It ads more juice and personality to your character. I dont like when the game makes me feel that maybe I should have play with a Sylvari or Asura instead for this story.

Okay, I have a lot of thoughts on this.

#1: Never has it been stated that the Eternal Alchemy simply brushes away the Human Gods or the Norn’s Spirits. What the Eternal Alchemy is, is simply a fancy way to say that everything is a part of a greater machine. That would have to include the Six Gods and the Spirits considering there is actual, in game and lore proof that both of these beings exist.

#2: The term “Eternal Alchemy” being used by all races at the end of the cutscene has a simple explanation. What else could that have been called? Only the Asura have a term and concept for such a thing, a term that is widely known by all races.

#3: On the topic of the current story arc being said to be “Asuran centric”, so far we are following in the footsteps of a Sylvari, and her life before she became Scarlet. It was also a Sylvari that began this story arc, Aerin. So I’d say it’s focusing more on the Sylvari than the Asura.

#4: In terms of the Asura being used as a Deus ex Machina, or thinking that they simply have the answers to everything and all else is irrelevant, I believe that is hardly the case. Not once has the Asura dismissed any other race’s beliefs as nonsense because they know better. In fact, in the Priory Storyline, it is an Asura who suggests using a Icon of Balthazar to buy Lion’s Arch more time. So clearly, they think the Six Gods exist. Again, they simply are the only one’s who have come up with a term for the greater workings of the world.

And lastly, #5: The Pale Tree in the vision. My current theory is that she is basically Yggdrasil. This would also explain the Dream and why she is so important. I also believe that she will have a much bigger and more in depth role than she has ever had, due to the cutscene.

These are my thoughts, and observations as a self proclaimed lore junkie. All in all, we will not have any clear cut answers until the end of Season 2.

CharrGirl.7896:

You don’t think if you went back to Black Citadel and started raving about what you saw in some crazy Asuran machine that they wouldn’t think you went bonkers? Even use of magic is frowned upon in Charr society, let alone a whole Asuran ideology.

My Charr is a Mesmer, and she’s a part of the Priory, so I may be a bit biased when it comes to magic. But while many Charr think that magic-users are weak and untrustworthy, it’s certainly not abject revulsion.

Don’t get me wrong, I think branching dialogue paths are awesome. I just don’t think it’s necessarily out of character for a PC of any race, who’s been through everything up to this point, to avoid calling the Eternal Alchemy what it is.

killtoy.4865:

And lastly, #5: The Pale Tree in the vision. My current theory is that she is basically Yggdrasil. This would also explain the Dream and why she is so important. I also believe that she will have a much bigger and more in depth role than she has ever had, due to the cutscene.

These are my thoughts, and observations as a self proclaimed lore junkie. All in all, we will not have any clear cut answers until the end of Season 2.

Thank you. For everything you said, which I think is spot-on, but I do have to specifically point out your last part. I concur with this theory, especially with the season’s focus on ley lines and the world’s source of magic, and GW2 is already full of allusions to Norse mythology.

I am very happy how to be Asura. They do not give reason to humans. (I hate humans anyway. too proud.)

It’s refreshing to see something else. Another thought. The machine Omard reminds me a sphere of infinity. it’s a given vision of an existing potential. a scan of a thought or belief that you connect and gives you another definition of waves captured.

It is therefore not always reliable ..

CharrGirl.7896:

Well, while I do agree that even Scarlet mentioned the Eternal Alchemy and she was a Sylvari, I cant help but feel weirded out by it. I understand its not a religion, but more of a universal pseudo-scientific fact, just like in our world, however it still feels odd for a Charr to say it. You don’t think if you went back to Black Citadel and started raving about what you saw in some crazy Asuran machine that they wouldn’t think you went bonkers? Even use of magic is frowned upon in Charr society, let alone a whole Asuran ideology.

I think its not unreasonable to be offered multiple dialogue options, even if they lead to same conclusions. It ads more juice and personality to your character. I dont like when the game makes me feel that maybe I should have play with a Sylvari or Asura instead for this story.

i was talking more in terms of “biased preconceptions”. you saw what scarlet called the eternal alchemy, so you called it the eternal alchemy. not so much “this charr is rambling about the eternal alchemy” as much as “this charr is stating they saw the same thing scarlet saw, which she claimed to be the eternal alchemy”.

Obsidian.1328:

The Eternal Alchemy is simply a way for the writers of GW2 to introduce a universal belief system into a multi-racial world of differing points of view.

It’s not a universal belief system. It’s an Asuran belief system. It’s no more universal than the Norn belief system.

Each race has its religion (if you count atheism). None of them are paramount.

Wanderer.3248:

Obsidian.1328:

The Eternal Alchemy is simply a way for the writers of GW2 to introduce a universal belief system into a multi-racial world of differing points of view.

It’s not a universal belief system. It’s an Asuran belief system. It’s no more universal than the Norn belief system.

Each race has its religion (if you count atheism). None of them are paramount.

you have to take into account that this is a fantasy game.

and in fantasy games, it’s entirely possible for all religions to be “true”. the human gods exist. the norn spirits exist. the eternal alchemy exists. and all those tales about human gods were true, although blown out of proportion by early humans.

It’s worth pointing out, as well, that the Eternal Alchemy is not a belief system that is exclusive to the others. It states that everything is a part of reality, and that it’s all connected in a way that everything has purpose. It’s really a very benign philosophy that gives it proponents the self-confidence that comes from knowing they do what they do for a reason.

And it shares a thought style with science, in that, if everything is part of a connected mechanism, it can be understood. You can’t make progress if you don’t believe you can understand reality.

Wanderer.3248:

Obsidian.1328:

The Eternal Alchemy is simply a way for the writers of GW2 to introduce a universal belief system into a multi-racial world of differing points of view.

It’s not a universal belief system. It’s an Asuran belief system. It’s no more universal than the Norn belief system.

Each race has its religion (if you count atheism). None of them are paramount.

Hey I agree lol. But I’m not the one writing it. The Eternal Alchemy just seems to play out in a universal way is all I’m saying.

A non-asura talking about the Eternal Alchemy as if it exists is no more strange than any non-norn race referring to the Spirits of the Wild as if they actually exist. Or a non-human referring to the six. Which happens all the time in game.

@Dustfinger: Except there is in game proof that all of these do exists, and these facts are widely known by all races. All of the races know of Ventari’s Tablet and the Sylvari’s beliefs, just as all know of the Eternal Alchemy and the Asura’s beliefs. So no, I do not think it strange for, say, a Human to refer to the Eternal Alchemy. Which brings me back to my original point: What, out of all of the other races beliefs and terms, could that vision have been called? That vision was a glimpse at the inner workings of the world, for which the term “The Eternal Alchemy” is the only one we have to describe such a thing.

Both humans and norm could call it Mists with more Tyria centric view, we don’t know how they look from outside. Humans could also say something about Realm of Torment or mention that orbs at least may be reference to Six Gods. Charr could see it as astronomical construct. Sylvari would see it same as it’s seen now minus Eternal Alchemy, that means Pale Tree in middle and 6 Dragons.

The Mists are, essentially, the afterlife, not the mechanics of the world. So no, I don’t think that’s what it could have been called. Also, the PC states that one of the orbs came at them and that they represented the dragons. It might be able to be called an astronomical construct, except that it has nothing to do with astronomy. The only other thing it could have been called is the Dream, however no other race would know what the Dream “feels” like except for the Sylvari, so that doesn’t work either. Again, the Eternal Alchemy is truly the only term we have.

ONE part of the Mists is the afterlife.
Not all of it though. The Mists are basically the fabrics of the world.

@Lordkrall: True… I think the more accurate term for the Mists would be Alternate World/Universe.

Still, I don’t think that the vision could be described as the Mists, in part due to the fact that we have a small bit of access to them. If something like that vision was easy to come by simply from entering a plane of the Mists, then it couldn’t have been used as a plot point.

killtoy.4865:

@Lordkrall: True… I think the more accurate term for the Mists would be Alternate World/Universe.

Still, I don’t think that the vision could be described as the Mists, in part due to the fact that we have a small bit of access to them. If something like that vision was easy to come by simply from entering a plane of the Mists, then it couldn’t have been used as a plot point.

no, fabric of reality is more accurate. tyria is in the mists, as is everything. everything is the mists, everything comes from the mists, and everything goes to the mists.

killtoy.4865:

@Dustfinger: Except there is in game proof that all of these do exists, and these facts are widely known by all races. All of the races know of Ventari’s Tablet and the Sylvari’s beliefs, just as all know of the Eternal Alchemy and the Asura’s beliefs. So no, I do not think it strange for, say, a Human to refer to the Eternal Alchemy. Which brings me back to my original point: What, out of all of the other races beliefs and terms, could that vision have been called? That vision was a glimpse at the inner workings of the world, for which the term “The Eternal Alchemy” is the only one we have to describe such a thing.

We are saying the same thing.

@BrunoBRS: I stand corrected, thank you.
@Dustfinger: My apologies… I must have misread what you said.

lordkrall.7241:

Back in the days it was common knowledge and a fact that the Earth was flat

Holy crap do I hate this myth. Just about everyone knew the Earth was round by the medieval period. This was already discovered by the antiquity Greeks. What people argued over was the exact circumference of the Earth. This is something that Columbus got very. very. VERY wrong and is what people called him “crazy” for. He just got lucky that there was a giant landmass called the Western Hemisphere that he ran into on his way to Eastern Asia.