Guild Wars 2

Oh im so waiting for the moment when we name the last Elder Dragon, the Scourge of the Deep Seas, the Monster of the Abyss….

Bubbles!

lakdav.3694:

Oh im so waiting for the moment when we name the last Elder Dragon, the Scourge of the Deep Seas, the Monster of the Abyss….

Bubbles!

And we find out Kuunavang was its champion which also rebelled due to a previous Oracle of the Mists having mucked about with her.

After all, didn’t Jeff Grubb say she and Glint were “similar but not the same”?

Can someone please shine the “writers sign” into the cloudy nightsky?
We need some answers.

Seriously. I sometimes think they like to leave us argueing between ourselves like: “dance my monkeys dance”…

In all fairness, i know they have a lot to do and because they can even write something they have to go through the proper ways so it does not become a PR debacle (see last time, which isn`even over now… “malleable”)

Maybe this is just a problem of them being to close to the project or they are skipping parts of the narrative, to keep the story on track (which in my book is stupid. I still want a proper explanation ingame why i am suddenly called boss -_- and yes i wont stop saying that. It bothers me like an unreachable itch).

S2 so far is going fast. With two releases they have shown they are not going a casual walk, like they did with S1, but big long strides towards something important.

It is a good thing… however if things like this keeps popping up it might throw stick in the enjoyment of the whole story and we quickly tumble down backwards, loosing all the momentum that was build up…

It’s well established in the world that there are six elder dragons and the name could be taken from our orders (in which we have a high rank too), but then the sixth name is missing. There are a lot NPCs and documents talking about six. I think it could be fixed, but ANet owes us the sixth name then.

I haven’t seen anything in the game to really key ANYONE into the things name. I mean, where did the NPC’s suddenly get this knowledge.

However, what I did notice (immediately after Scarlet’s death) when you saw the end cinematic, people I played with were instantly abuzz with the name Mordremoth.. Where did THAT come from?! They knew right away..

Rainin.9812:

I haven’t seen anything in the game to really key ANYONE into the things name. I mean, where did the NPC’s suddenly get this knowledge.

However, what I did notice (immediately after Scarlet’s death) when you saw the end cinematic, people I played with were instantly abuzz with the name Mordremoth.. Where did THAT come from?! They knew right away..

Thin air, so far. Devs might have been wrapped around work until now, but I hope we get clarifications/fixes on the issue from tomorrow on, that’s weekend time. And also hope we don’t get a made-up “it’s a mystery you shall soon find out about” and actually admit it was a mistake.

Crucible of Eternity. Subject Alpha’s attacks revealed that name, although no one knew for sure it was the sixth Elder Dragon until sometime around the end of S1, and the awkward reveal now.

I´ve placed the Signal in the sky and he answered. Was not really sure what I was specifically talking about, but I pitched him the links to several threads that appeared the last few days.
Hopefully we get an answer in one of them.

btw. just for giggles, my crappy PS-attempt… I need a more recent picture

Anet won’t admit it was a mistake (if it was). No company ever admits to a mistake.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/22/flameseeker-chronicles-introducing-guild-wars-2s-dragons-reac/#continued
How did our characters know Mordremoth’s name well enough to identify the dragon to Kasmeer? Waller said that the player characters have access to the Pact’s information and would have heard about all of the dragons while preparing to combat Zhaitan

Not convincing at all.

The Priory has been studying Dwarven artifacts for two years. Could be it came from their ancient history. And Priory information concerning dragons would easily have made it through the Pact to the Commander leading attacks on… dragons.

It could have been clarified better, definitely, but it’s not impossible.

That’s basically the only possible way anyone could know its name, so we all guessed that. They just blew it in-game.

Yes, I mean that.

Mordremoth’s appearance was not delivered in the right way.

It’s strange because in episode one Mordremoth isn’t mentioned once. Players don’t name Mordremoth, NPCs don’t name Mordremoth, I don’t even think Elder Dragons or corruption are mentioned much. The PC is acting as if they have no knowledge of a sixth Elder Dragon named Mordremoth. In episode one we act as though it’s unkown, but instantly in episode two we remember “oh yeah, Elder Dragon Mordremoth”.

Meh.

Okay, the player might have information… but…

- Why is it that Majory is proclaiming that it is Mordemoth?
- If that is the case, why do we as players do not have any place to look things up?
- Why did we not proclaim as soon as we saw the vines that it could be Mordremoth (If our character actually has that knowledge)
- Why was there no meeting with the Pact beforehand, as soon as the dragon roared to give us palyers an update on which dragon it could be?

Seriously, this is a very poor excuse for a rushed execution.

Can`t they just come out and say: “sorry, we messed up because in our heads we were further into the story already and everyone knew it anyways so we slipped up. We will be more careful in the future”

Seriously. This is just bad PR.

The PC could just be completely bullkittenting the group to try and sound smart and threw a bunch of words together. It might not actually be its name and we will forever just refer to it as Mordremoth.

Fuiltech.6438:

The PC could just be completely bullkittenting the group to try and sound smart and threw a bunch of words together. It might not actually be its name and we will forever just refer to it as Mordremoth.

Eventually we’ll find a lieutenant who orders us to ‘submit to the power of Willard’ and everyone is like “who the hell is Willard?”

Fluffball.8307:

Fuiltech.6438:

The PC could just be completely bullkittenting the group to try and sound smart and threw a bunch of words together. It might not actually be its name and we will forever just refer to it as Mordremoth.

Eventually we’ll find a lieutenant who orders us to ‘submit to the power of Willard’ and everyone is like “who the hell is Willard?”

if his name was willard, i’d crack up so much every time he was referenced by name.

Jaken.6801:

Okay, the player might have information… but…

- Why is it that Majory is proclaiming that it is Mordemoth?.

Don’t forget she’s a Durmand Priory member.

Yes I was so confused when the DE 2.0 knew the name Mordremoth. From my understanding the only thing we had of Mordremoth in game was the combat log (No actual lore) I was really hoping for an appearance of a champion announcing the elder dragons name or something else than magically knowing the new elder dragons name.

Likewise I like how they mentioned the only thing that could hurt Mordremoth is Kormir 2.0…it was terrible story telling in Scarlet’s room. kinda mad there was no discovering of The jungle dragon and it’s name.

Trahearne is coming

Hunter.6950:

Likewise I like how they mentioned the only thing that could hurt Mordremoth is Kormir 2.0.

i don’t know where you got that from. trahearne is said to be a target, not “the only thing that could hurt it”

Well, allegedly Waller does admit that the “name-bomb” was pretty poorly handled.

They really need something better, official…

I mean it is not alone this thread here, but the other in the regular LS forum part as well:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/s2/How-does-my-character-know-Mordremoth/page/3#post4227965

Yeah I agree, it’s not enough to be a serious issue but it was a head jerker for a second there. Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if in the original ending of Season 1 (the leaked version where Marjory was supposed to die) that Scarlet in her dying breath muttered Mordremoth’s name. It’s unfortunate that part didn’t stick because these topics wouldn’t be here.

Anet dropped the ball on this one. Its a bad thing when the community is trying to explain something the writers themselves should have thought about.

The Living Story so far has revolved more around DE 2.0 and their party banter than what is actually going on in Dry Top. The most interesting things are learned when you talk to npc`s or read through journals, historical documents and listen to recordings that in a peripheral way shed some more light on the Elder Dragons and the nature of magic.

Pulling Mordremoth`s name out of thin air and that the vines are an extension of his body, according to Taimi`s dialogue, is lazy. How does she know this? Since when did she become an expert on Elder Dragon anatomy?

It is yet another missed opportunity to let the player take an active part in the story by exploring and eventually discovering the true nature of the threat we are dealing with. What else would be the point of the player character entering Omadd`s machine? When asked about what he/she saw, instead of “everything” or whatever the PC said, it could have simply been “Elder Dragon”.

Did she actually state it as a fact though?
I read it as it was a THEORY. And to be fair it could make sense, seeing how the Dragons does seem to be rather far from standard fantasy Dragons.

I would think that one of the issues here is the fact that they scrapped the original ending for S1 (partly) due to it being spoiled by dataminers, which could very well have given us the name. And then simply didn’t think about it.
It is not like it is the biggest issue in the world.

Well, i hope they slow down.
Sure, S1 was slow at the beginning, but the pace at the end was fitting.

Now they are rushing one thing after the other and stumble over their own feet.

Every “mystery” and oportunity that arrived so far, has been “explained” or deemed “unnecesary” in the next minute:
- What was that roar? Oh certainly an eldar dragon, of course
- Lets go, explore and encounter the being that just woke up… nope zephirites, Scarlet and oh Mordremoth… Mordrewho? Oh these vines are certainly Mordremoth. You know, the eldar dragon. Big and jungly…
- Ley lines are so mysterious, … Inquest, Scarlet and miners have been knowing them for a long apearently, they even knew where they were…
- Hey Belinda how is Fort Salma… oh she is dead…

So, next week we get caught up with “the locket” and “Ascalon Ghosts” already it seems. The next “big” thing…

The thing is with hyping “big things” they need to have a pay off.
I do not care how great the “cutzsene” was, if the rest of the writing jumps around like jackrabbit.

Don`t brush the mystery you create away so easily. It is just frustrating, for kittens sake -_-

They just need to add some lines of text so when people go back and play Season 2 from start to finish, they wont even recognize it. No additional scenes, just a line of dialog in Episode 1 with Mord’s name getting dropped during your investigation of Scarlet’s place and then in Episode 2, the player brings the name up and the NPCs can be all “Wha?”

I was under the impression that Mordremoth wasn’t known before now, so it really shattered my immersion when my character suddenly named him and the biconics reacted as if it was common knowledge.

I posted a first idea for a change when I gave my feedback, but I just had another idea.

What if they wrote a short story about the Priory finding an ancient tablet or artifact that mentioned Mordremoth, and then put it somewhere accessible for players to interact with in the game? It wouldn’t fix everything, but at least it would be a little less jarring, and possibly not too much work to create.

Maybe some side instances might be useful to check information state.

We were hungry in our trip through Dry Top and we meet at the bar in Prosperty. This would be a great moment to gather some informations together and fluff around (while sitting at a desk or bar and eating/drinking). Those instances can be linked in the story and don’t need to be done. They are just for storytelling and everybody of the biconics or the PC can add to the discussion.

At the beginning of S2 there could have been the possibility of meeting all at the dead end. You travel there because you got the letter from E and want to take Marjory along on your trip. Just to find out she got also a letter. Then short chatting about: “any idea who’s E?” “No” “We are going towards the roar that we heard. Sounded like a dragon. Which one do you think?” (List up and strike out the less possible ones by knowledge. At this point the name Mordremoth can be passed and everyone knows the name.) A small oh moment: “Wait this one isn’t awake isn’t he?” … grumble, silence … “Erm, didn’t Belinda say something about heading in this direction?” “We should go … now”

There are even more small meet ups in which the missing friends get informations passed that they couldn’t pick up during the missions. Some lines can be added dynamically with some interaction on the related map or based on class/race/order/whatever. Story bound NPCs can come up with common strange questions which introduce them to us: “Who are you” “Erm … travellers. Just passing.” “This area got dangerous in the last time. I wouldn’t recommend any tourism now.” “That’s not your problem. Do you know the area well? What can you tell me about …?” “Don’t know. (add personal experience with outer problem, add personal result of outer problem like many known people dead/injured/mad/missing) You think you are on a sightseeing trip, then move on.” “Well, that sounds heavy.” “Don’t worry we are careful.” “Thanks for info. Have a drink, you look pretty exhausted.”

Just an idea how to present some more informations in some instances without fighting and get a closer bond to our group.

I know that the personal system is scrapped, but along those instances there could be some smaller interactions that change future behaviour. You get drinks offered and by choice alcoholic or non-alcoholic your character slowly adjust towards a central behaviour. One drink along the instance alcoholic or not —> thoughtful, observant. Many alcoholic drinks —> reckless, forgetful. Many non-alcoholic drinks —> unsettled, easy distracted

Errannar.8263:

I was under the impression that Mordremoth wasn’t known before now, so it really shattered my immersion when my character suddenly named him and the biconics reacted as if it was common knowledge.

Well we have known since release that there were 6 Dragons.
Zhaitan, Jormag, Kralkatorik, Primordus and two not named ones.
One which is Bubbles and the other which is Mordemoth.

So the number of Dragons have always been consistent, but they should indeed have given us an actual source for the name.
And I think they did, in the original S1 ending, but didn’t think about fixing S2 when they changed said ending.

BobbyStein.2315:

Jaken.6801:

btw. just for giggles, my crappy PS-attempt… I need a more recent picture

I should post a newer pic on my Twitter or G+. That source image is ancient!

we’ll keep using the old one, because your frustration with it makes you show up and reply :P

BobbyStein.2315:

I want to address the comments about the player character’s knowledge of Mordremoth and how that fits into the story. For some players, this may have felt like it came out of nowhere. Up to this point, the only explicit mention of Mordremoth in the core campaign was on the Teeth of Mordremoth skill in Crucible of Eternity.

Season 2 of the Living World assumes that the player character has completed the Personal Story, killed Zhaitan, and has attained the rank of Pact Commander. It also assumes completion of season 1, that the player character killed Scarlet, and has a friendship with Rox, Braham, and the rest of the crew. Because of the PC’s assumed rank in an organization that deals in fighting dragons, and that such knowledge isn’t really a secret (but isn’t widely known as characters in the world have no reason to openly discuss it until now) we wanted the player to make the call by identifying the dragon in a conversation among friends. In hindsight, there should have been more build up or discovery before reaching that point. Lesson learned.

We want to seed Tyria with lore bits and other items that can better educate adventurous players seeking more knowledge on the subject. Keep your eyes open in future releases. Thanks so much for taking the time to post your feedback regarding episode 2.

So… can you tell us the name of “Bubbles” then?
You know, since the inquest certainly know of him (having space for his minions in CoE) and the Pact has appeaerently knowledge of them all through some sources?

And yeah, got to find that new image. Maybe for the Wiki as well. Thats where i found it.

BobbyStein.2315:

I want to address the comments about the player character’s knowledge of Mordremoth and how that fits into the story. For some players, this may have felt like it came out of nowhere. Up to this point, the only explicit mention of Mordremoth in the core campaign was on the Teeth of Mordremoth skill in Crucible of Eternity.

Season 2 of the Living World assumes that the player character has completed the Personal Story, killed Zhaitan, and has attained the rank of Pact Commander. It also assumes completion of season 1, that the player character killed Scarlet, and has a friendship with Rox, Braham, and the rest of the crew. Because of the PC’s assumed rank in an organization that deals in fighting dragons, and that such knowledge isn’t really a secret (but isn’t widely known as characters in the world have no reason to openly discuss it until now) we wanted the player to make the call by identifying the dragon in a conversation among friends. In hindsight, there should have been more build up or discovery before reaching that point. Lesson learned.

We want to seed Tyria with lore bits and other items that can better educate adventurous players seeking more knowledge on the subject. Keep your eyes open in future releases. Thanks so much for taking the time to post your feedback regarding episode 2.

Would you please consider adding in a quick bit of dialogue (written is fine) to add to the episode in the future? Maybe some remark in one of Scarlet’s journals, or some “in case you NPCs don’t have my security clearance” kind of recap. It would go a long way toward smoothing out an immersion-jarring experience.

With the new story journal, it’s not just “all in the past” anymore. Current players can replay it, and future players or those not yet level 80 will experience it for the first time. If you add just a bit of context, as many of us have suggested, then the problem will be solved and all the people will rejoice!

Thank you Bobby. It takes some courage to come out and say that it could have been done better. Indeed!

Hopefully things like that are better conveyed in the near future

One thing… why is the interaction between everyone so lighthearted? So, so much! Literally, Kasmeer went from mourning for her “sister-in-law” to HAR HAR, your hair was standing in all directions from MAGICLOLZ.

Shouldn’t they be concerned that their “Boss” experienced something nobody understands, not even Asuras, in a machine that drove a character insane to the point of villainy? That it is connected to the biggest threat the world has seen in 10,000 years?

And they tease?

To solve the problem u could add a book or something in the top part of Scarlet’s lab in dry top where she names it Mordremoth. That way any future characters that would do the story would see the book in episode 1.

BobbyStein.2315:

Up to this point, the only explicit mention of Mordremoth in the core campaign was on the Teeth of Mordremoth skill in Crucible of Eternity.

The roleplayer in me wants to shake my head. I get what you’re saying but the player’s character wouldn’t know this. It’s not like the Inquest have playing cards of every single person or being on Tyria labeling their stats. Although in an alternate dimension (Bring us back the Super Adventure Toy Box! FTW!) this could be… entertaining.

I feel like the team during their down time could put some additional text in places and a little nudge in the direction of some to get people to look. The ability to replay Season 2 when we’re anticipating Episode 1 of Season 3 makes for a good opportunity to make up for the change that went down during the conclusion of Season 1 that was meant to address this very topic.

BobbyStein.2315:

…we wanted the player to make the call by identifying the dragon in a conversation among friends. In hindsight, there should have been more build up or discovery before reaching that point. Lesson learned.

I’d also add that in this case, it wasn’t the player “making the call” that was so weird. It was the players learning something from our own characters that seemed to be common knowledge. It felt like we weren’t “making the call” so much as sharing some great, unexplained revelation.

It was a reminder that we’re not our characters. Our characters apparently know far more than we do, and being reminded in this way makes usme feel like less a part of the game world. My character may be a high-ranking officer in the Pact, and he may have lots of knowledge about these dragons and their names… But I’m not, and I don’t, and now I’ve been reminded in the middle of an instance. And my crumbling immersion mixed with the sands of Prosperity and was lost.

BobbyStein.2315:

Nah, it’s not my frustration with the image that makes me show up. It’s my desire to interact with you folks. I just don’t often have the time to visit as often as I’d like. Living World is a very busy team.

So busy that the whole Anet team is working on it and every other aspect of the game is left behind.

BobbyStein.2315:

(…) It also assumes completion of season 1, that the player character killed Scarlet, and has a friendship with Rox, Braham, and the rest of the crew. Because of the PC’s assumed rank in an organization that deals in fighting dragons, and that such knowledge isn’t really a secret (but isn’t widely known as characters in the world have no reason to openly discuss it until now) we wanted the player to make the call by identifying the dragon in a conversation among friends. (..).

It seems our characters have second lives when we’re logged off, and qre quite busy with it.

I at least can’t remember Faleg being shown a list of names of dragons, or befriending the bi-conics (which I do not enjoy and thus ignore as much as possible).

I guess I’m gonna have to hide the gold from my own character, so he doesn’t spend it all on ale when I’m not playing! Or Log out in a locked room with no escape, and without cash for a waypoint. Either way, our characters’ free roaming while player is offline must stop, before they rebel and change our passwords!

BobbyStein.2315:

Season 2 of the Living World …also assumes completion of season 1, that the player character killed Scarlet, and has a friendship with Rox, Braham, and the rest of the crew.

Some of us were never around for season 1. I, for instance, would have bought the game on release but didnt get around to building a computer that could run it until just recently. (before I just had an old laptop that probably would have exploded if I tried to play lol). I bought the game when it went on sale recently which was after the end of season 1 meaning that I have no access to that story so, if this quote is the cases (thats not hypothetical in this case because this is a dev post), then it seems there will be parts of season 2 that will be meaningless to me? Will the only way possible to catch up on season 1 be to go to youtube and watch someone else play it?

That Guy.5704:

(snip)

Yup, youtube, these forums or otherwise locate the info. And you not only killed a bad salad you never heard about, you are also friends with a band of hoboes and failures, that you also never heard about if you haven’t played S1.

By “you” I mean your character of course.

BobbyStein.2315:

We want to seed Tyria with lore bits and other items that can better educate adventurous players seeking more knowledge on the subject. Keep your eyes open in future releases. Thanks so much for taking the time to post your feedback regarding episode 2.

Yes times one billions!

BobbyStein.2315:

In hindsight, there should have been more build up or discovery before reaching that point. Lesson learned.

This is what I was hoping to see.

Among my circle of friends, guildies, etc, I have been the biggest critic of how abrupt this reveal was (one of the most important in LS2 and perhaps for LS1, as well). I like the story and the rollout of LS2 — it shows just how much ANet has learned about gradually evolving the game environment through the LS (instead of abruptly via expansions). The naming of Mordremoth was, for me, the single sour note in an otherwise excellent symphony.

Thank you for explaining the background, acknowledging that you understand how the actual reveal came across, and most of all for being willing to change how we uncover lore, both critical (what/who we are fighting) and trivial (beggars in Prosperity).

Avit.3165:

So busy that the whole Anet team is working on it and every other aspect of the game is left behind.

And it is comments like this that stops the devs from posting on the forums.
Good job.

lordkrall.7241:

Avit.3165:

So busy that the whole Anet team is working on it and every other aspect of the game is left behind.

And it is comments like this that stops the devs from posting on the forums.
Good job.

It just goes to show that when people finally get an answer, they shift focus elsewhere to continue being upset.

To be fair with the still-upset people, the answer is pretty lackluster and confusing as to how it came to be at all. You would figure the Living World team would have someone out there in the management section to point out things like “That’s silly and nobody will agree with it, stop that, you are ruining months of improvement in Living Story writting with a single, easy to apply line of dialogue.”
You could drag in a random fanfic writter for no money and that person would still be able to point these things out. It is just… confusing.

Sometimes the best answers are short and to the point.

BobbyStein.2315:

In hindsight, there should have been more build up or discovery before reaching that point. Lesson learned.