Guild Wars 2

I was wondering does anyone know the official national boundaries in Tyria?

Like the city-states in RL history they probably aren’t hard set until they border a friendly neighbor. e.g.: Kryta may set their borders but the centaur would probably disagree.

There are no official boundaries, like Jenna is queen of Kryta, and charrs control Ascalcalon, but no one controls Shiverpeaks, also there is no official boundary between Maguuma and Kryta (there is an in game mechanical one, but not a lore one).

Well crud…

Personally, I have always checked where each races military was stationed and assumed that they would only dedicate resources to defending their own territory so in my mind I just kind of made note of it.

With that said, LA seems to control a fairly diverse territory…. or did. I’m not sure how that works with LA’s current condition. Anyway, they have outpost in Kessex, Queensdale, Gendarran, Lornar’s, Snowden, and Caledon.

Anyone know of a fan made map that may cover those type things?

LA is in Kryta territory (read human territory) but was given permission, after several troubles that can be read in the book Sea of Sorrows, to work like an independent city with its own rules (that is why all races was welcome there), but outside LA it is Kryta territory.

Captain’s council controls the city of LA and the havens, and that’s about it.

I have read the books. Sea of Sorrows was my favorite btw.

I do find it strange that LA would have so many outpost all over the place with no real interest of its own. Unless they struck some deal the the queen, Mother Tree, and Knut Whitebear off screen or something.

(well maybe not Knut considering how the norn leadership works)

And as far as I could tell LA doesn’t just exist in Krytan territory but it is its own independent state now.

At one stage, I started trying to make a kind of political map of Tyria, but it’s a) now out of date due to new information (Garrenhoff is technically Krytan, even if in practice there’s little communication with the capital) and b) I didn’t get much farther than the human nations.

With that in mind – I think the charr, tengu, and humans are the only ones that are really interested in having stable borders right now. Sylvari have a ’can’t we all just share it?’ attitude, and asura and norn tend to claim territory as individual settlements rather than a nation – they probably have formal borders with those allied nations that do care about such things, but otherwise have a looser concept of boundaries.

As noted above, those hostile races that do have the strength and organisation to form a nation – centaurs and dredge, primarily – are more inclined towards just taking what they can hold, and aren’t interested in setting formal boundaries (at least, not any they’re actually intending to keep). Dredge would be particularly hard to pin down because they have a level of organisation between disparate locations that suggests that they have underground tunnels that we can’t access – as a result their nation likely stretches over (or, rather, under) close to the entirety of the currently explorable Shiverpeaks, but apart from their stronghold in southern Dredgehaunt they have very little surface presence.

In the case of Lion’s Arch – I’ve generally thought of Applenook as being LA’s equivalent of Shaemoor and Astorea – the farming zone outside the city but still under its aegis that provides the bulk of the food for the city. The lack of refugees in Applenook and creation of a camp near Vigil’s Keep instead raises a question mark over that, but if it IS technically Krytan, I suspect it’s like Garrenhoff – there’s a map in DR somewhere with Applenook marked as Krytan, but nobody’s actually tried to enforce that in years, and in practise Applenook certainly seems to be more strongly influenced by LA then Kryta. Recent events might change that, however.

Otherwise… I don’t think LA actually claims the area around the havens – instead, they come to an agreement with the locals for permission to build the haven in exchange for creating a centre for trade and helping to maintain security in the area.

I think the havens are in LA’s interests, but only in an economic sense. Those fortresses are about the only things keeping the roads beyond each race’s heartland traversable- without them overland trade would be impossible. LA owes its (former) prosperity to commerce, and without a steady influx of travelers and merchants the city would wither. Keeping the roads open is entirely in their own interests.

That’s pretty much it. They’re not making any claims on the land, just making sure the roads stay open. I suspect there’s some sort of fee for merchants using the roads (or at least the havens) or some other financial benefit LA receives from the havens without merchants needing to come all the way to Lion’s Arch, since I vaguely recall seeing an indication somewhere that LA does receive some income directly from the havens – I think it may have been a comment from the Captain of Canthan ancestry, whose name I don’t recall at the moment.

Hao Luen?

That’s him, yes.

Hm… doesn’t mention taxes directly, just that they need to restore the trade routes to provide the income to rebuild the city. Still, I’d imagine you’re right. Building, manning, and maintaining havens can’t be cheap, and I don’t see why they’d skip out on a chance for them to partially pay for themselves.

Kalavier.1097:

Captain’s council controls the city of LA and the havens, and that’s about it.

Also if anyone hasn’t noticed this, there aren’t any havens near Divinty’s Reach, and the only times you see any in Krytan territory are when they are far from the city on trade routes that lead to the other nations. You see plenty in the Maguuma, but they stop short of what could be the border of each capital city’s outskirts. Still within their land, but far from any real signs of civilization (if you were to look at it from an in-game standard). Additionally, you only find one haven in charr territory, and that one could be seen as being on norn territory instead, so it could be that the charr aren’t comfortable with the Lion’s Counsel setting a military installation within their borders. Though it could also just be because of where the trade routes were set up.

I don’t think it’s a matter of military risk or territorial sovereignty or anything like that. I see the placement as more a matter of where the havens are needed. Why pay for the upkeep of a fortress in Ascalon when the charr patrol their own roads? The Lionguard only has to take up the slack in the gaps between regional powers.

While we are on the subject of boundaries, is the Crystal Desert part of Tyria or Elona or is there no official boundary there as well?

Continent wise, the Crystal Desert is considered part of Tyria and the Desolation part of Elona (the distinction between the two seems to be a matter of how far the sulfurous haze spread). Nation wise, no humans have claimed either since the days of the Primeval Kings, excepting several failed Ascension-oriented colonies. Undead aren’t bothered much by sand and sun, though, so it is certainly possible that Joko considers the whole of that waste part of his domain.

Thanks Aaron. I figured with the undead plague that spread into the desert from the desolation, that Palawa probably figured it was his like Elona. Ownership is 90% of the law. LOL

I can see the Crystal Desert being our bridge back to Elona. I think it would be cool if this time we started in the desolation and ended in Istan.

I appreciate the clarification.

TriggerSad.2597:

Kalavier.1097:

Captain’s council controls the city of LA and the havens, and that’s about it.

Also if anyone hasn’t noticed this, there aren’t any havens near Divinty’s Reach, and the only times you see any in Krytan territory are when they are far from the city on trade routes that lead to the other nations. You see plenty in the Maguuma, but they stop short of what could be the border of each capital city’s outskirts. Still within their land, but far from any real signs of civilization (if you were to look at it from an in-game standard). Additionally, you only find one haven in charr territory, and that one could be seen as being on norn territory instead, so it could be that the charr aren’t comfortable with the Lion’s Counsel setting a military installation within their borders. Though it could also just be because of where the trade routes were set up.

Havens mostly are in Shiverpeaks, and the edge of Krytan heading into the Maguuma Jungle/tarnished coast.

Likely more a placement of which roads actually go through dangerous land, as there are no havens in Metrica province actually.

Charr trade lanes would be on the west side of Ascalon, which is also among their most secure lands so they could guard caravans up to the shiverpeaks.

Shiverpeaks are dangerous from Sons, wildlife, Icebrood, and dredge, so that’s likely why we see the most in the Snowden drifts, northern Lornar’s Pass, and Wayfarer foothills. Also likely where the major trade routes would be going through (I don’t recall any in Dredgehaunt hills or Timberline).

In Kryta you have them in Gendarren fields, Kessex hills, and… that’s it really I think. None in Queensdale (I forget if the fort at the Gendarren fields -Queensdale portal is Seraph or lionguard…) Though they were constructing two havens in Caledon forest, one fairly close to the Grove, besides the Norn that’s the closest they get to a capital.

But yeah, upkeep would be one factor, actual danger of the merchant lanes another (I believe lionguard/LA had a deal with Centaurs to have the havens left alone by their raids…) If the local army keeps it safe, Haven isn’t needed. obviously the Norn have no true army formation so.. :P

I think only Charr and humans would have ‘hard’ borders, the rest I don’t think so… Well, besides the Tengu obviously.

Kalavier.1097:

I think only Charr and humans would have ‘hard’ borders, the rest I don’t think so… Well, besides the Tengu obviously.

In case of the Tengu, a really hard and well defined border

Godslost is indeed a Lionguard haven. There’s also a haven in Metrica, on the road from Caledon Haven to Rata Sum. I get the impression that the western trade route was always Lions Arch to Metrica Province, and the only new haven to be constructed for the sylvari trade is Bay Haven.

On the whole, I think it’s a mix of necessity and politics – there’s no point putting a haven somewhere where local forces are strong enough to keep the route secure, and some places where the route isn’t secure but it would represent too much loss of face for the local administration to admit (it’s one thing for there to be havens stationed along isolated parts of Kessex Hills, quite another for them to be spread through Queensdale. Plus, quite a few events in Kessex show that the Lionguard don’t really have Kryta’s interests in mind even when they really should).

Oh right. I forgot about the haven in metrica… because my asura I was leveling there isn’t close to it :P.

I was actually talking about stoneguard gate, which I just checked ingame and it’s a Seraph fort (like a level 1 WvW tower walls, where most havens are like level 2 walls aka stone walls compared to reinforced wood).

I think the boundaries are as lose as the writing team wants them to be. Ellen Kiel threatened to execute Evon Gnashblade despite him not being inside of Lion’s Arch but inside of Vigil Keep (one would assume Kiel has no power over someone inside of another organisation’s military fortress) and the Seraph were trying to arrest O-Tron outside of Vigil Keep. Kiel was also acting as the police on Southsun Cove, so appearently the Lionguard is in control there. Oh and Kiel ordered Dessa in for questions… from the Mists… so maybe Kiel just has jurisdiction wherever she is? Then there’s Thurma and the Lionguard acting inside of Twilight Arbor but I guess that’s close to the havens and I believe it’s outside of the Grove’s area of protection (some sylvari NPCs mention where it ends, I think it might be the Soundless, who live outside of the area protected by the Wardens).

Kiel had the right to execute Gnashblade because he had been conscripted. At that point he was technically a member of the Lionguard. Dessa was ordered in for questioning because she was deemed a potential threat to L.A. In Twilight Arbor, they were acting as a military, not as a police, so the idea of jurisdiction was moot.

As for the Seraph, you may have noted that both the Lionguard and Heal-o-tron called them on it… and they backed down. That was jurisdiction at work, or at least who they may or may not arrest.

Soundless live in the middle of Warden held land…

Also, Kiel threatened that because Gnashblade was willing (and likely WAS GOING TO) Leave LA in the dust to die, and they needed those extra weapons and armor for the lionguard to retake the city.

Gnashblade had already left Lion’s Arch (as had almost everyone else). He was no longer in Lion’s Arch at the time and logic would reason that the Lionguard doesn’t have power over people not in Lion’s Arch (or at least the territory controlled by the Lionguard). Last time I checked, a person is allowed to do what they want with their belongings. Kiel acted as though she was entitled to someone else’s property. Why wasn’t Gnashblade allowed to move his business to the Black Citadel at that point?

As far as Kiel conscripting him, what gives her the authority to conscript a person who is neither currently inside of Lion’s Arch nor technically a citizen of Lion’s Arch? He wasn’t inside Lion’s Arch, at the time of his conscription he was inside Vigil Keep. I would be amazed if the Vigil allowed another military/police authority to have jurisdiction inside their own headquarters. Arguably Evon didn’t even live in Lion’s Arch any more because his home was likely destroyed.

I understand why Kiel went after Dessa, I don’t think “you’re a threat” qualifies someone to have jurisdiction. If Kiel is acting in official capacity in these situations and using her authority as a Lionguard, the location in which she’s acting needs to be one that recognises her authority. The Seraph can’t just waltz into the Black Citadel and try to arrest Rytlock or anyone else – that’s not their territory. Sure they can track people down in territory not belonging to anyone else, but they have no right to conscript people for their own convenience.

Evon was very much a citizen of LA- even if there isn’t legal paperwork for such things, his run for the Captain’s Council cemented it. You don’t get to run for political office and then later happen to be separate from the community just because it seems convenient. And keep in mind here that the Lionguard is as much military as police- while territorial jurisdiction may matter to the later, it is almost by definition irrelevant to the former. A military’s mandate is to do what is necessary to protect their state (and ideally, but not necessarily, their civilians) from foreign threats, and it was in that capacity that Evon was conscripted- access to his resources was necessary for the assault that recaptured the city. If they had indulged his selfishness, things might be a lot worse than they currently stand.

He wasn’t “no longer a citizen” because it was conveneinet, he was no longer a citizen because his home was destroyed and was presently being occupied by a hostile enemy force. That’s why they were called refugees. A refugee in the real world who has fled their home and currently resides outside of their old home is not under the authority of their place of origin, they are under the authority of the place they currently reside in. Again I understand why Kiel wanted to conscript Evon, I’m just unclear on why she was able to do so to a person who is a refugee (not a citizen of Lion’s Arch) and was at the time located in another organisation’s territory.

Kalavier.1097:

Soundless live in the middle of Warden held land…

Then why, of all the sylvari settlements outside of the Grove in Caledon, does the Weeping Isle not have any Warden guards? I’m pretty sure it’s a plot point in Caledon Forest that the Wardens don’t actively control/protect territory a certain distance from the tree. That’s why Bay Haven (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bay_Haven) requires Lionguard protection instead of relying on the Wardens. The Warden activities further north aren’t Wardens guarding/protecting sylvari territory, those are Wardens in satellite settlements with military purposes.

And the warden camp near TA?

And the warden guarded settlement directly near the weeping isle? or near Caledon haven?

Yes, they might not actively guard the Weeping islse, but it’s technically surrounding by Warden guarded land.

Also, he ran for captains council, and he ditched a captain of the council and a number of citizens within the city and left them to die (The captain escaped at least), PURELY to get his merchandise out. He gave no cares about the city. I figure the conscription is also to punish that move.

Regarding jurisdiction:

When push comes to shove, refugees are normally under the jurisdiction of whoever has jurisdiction over the refugee camps. In most real-world situations, this is usually not the government of the refugee’s (original) home state, as the refugee is either trying to escape that government, or the government is in no fit state to provide suitable protection.

What has probably happened here, though, is that the Captain’s Council negotiated with the Vigil in order to house refugees in and around Vigil Keep, while retaining jurisdiction over the refugees – and thus the right to conscript refugees with useful resources. Additionally, the Vigil being a (para)military organisation that also had an interest in defeating Scarlet, I don’t think would have objected too strenuously to Evon being forced to supply his resources to the war effort.

That said, Evon’s a sleazeball, but I don’t think he was planning to cut and run entirely – just before he got conscripted, for instance, he was coming up with a deal with Heal-o-Tron for fighting Scarlet (which resulted in a lot of players being revived in the hologram fight) – one which he was willing to take a serious financial risk on (he initially demanded payment in advance, but relented when he found out what Heal-o-Tron intended). I suspect what really got his goat was that a) control over just how MUCH to contribute was taken away from him, and b) being conscripted meant he couldn’t make himself out as the hero for whatever contributions he chose to make.

I believe the Heal-o-Tron conversation took place after he was conscripted, as he mentioned that he doesn’t work for free “except for the Lionguard these days. kitten that Kiel.”

I’ll have to double-check my screenshot logs, since I’m pretty certain that the conscription actually comes as part of the same conversation (HoT leaves, and then the conscripting officer arrives immediately afterwards). We might be both right and ANet plotholed themselves, though.

EDIT: Huh. It’s not in my screenshot folder. I was SURE I’d screenshotted HoT’s entire cycle through the refugee camp…

I remember HoT arrives directly after he is conscripted. He mocks the request until he descides it might irritate kiel and then he tells HoT that they’ll talk more about it.

On the topic of jurisdiction:

Before the world was neatly cut up and divided out to everybody, jurisdiction wasn’t a real concept. Powers defended what boundaries they could. if an individual got on the wrong side of a power, either a bounty was set on their head or a search party was sent out looking for them. Even into the territiories of other powers. The only ones protected by the ‘jurisciction’ of other powers were the few individuals who those powers needed to keep things running.

And even then, that protection was only to the point of what either side was willing to go to war over. I.E: Most powers would be unwilling to go to war over a peasant who stole from a nobleman in another territiory. Though, most powers wouldn’t be willing to risk allowing an armed ‘posse’ from another power to do as they pleased either. They wouldn’t spend their own resources to find someone elses thief as we do today. In those cases bounty hunters would have been ideal.

draxynnic.3719:

I’ll have to double-check my screenshot logs, since I’m pretty certain that the conscription actually comes as part of the same conversation (HoT leaves, and then the conscripting officer arrives immediately afterwards). We might be both right and ANet plotholed themselves, though.

EDIT: Huh. It’s not in my screenshot folder. I was SURE I’d screenshotted HoT’s entire cycle through the refugee camp…

The thing is those dialogues basically went endless right after each other. Shortly after the lionguard leaves, HOT shows up. Right after Tron leaves, the lionguard walks up. (and somewhere in the set is him screaming and bashing the Captain’s council. I think the order was him bashing the council, lionguard walks up, then heal tron arrives).

But I do remember him going “I don’t work for free… besides for the lionguard. kitten Kiel.”

And given how he openly bashed the council, I’m sure the Vigil didn’t mind him being conscripted at all, because it shut him up.

Shiren.9532:

As far as Kiel conscripting him, what gives her the authority to conscript a person who is neither currently inside of Lion’s Arch nor technically a citizen of Lion’s Arch? He wasn’t inside Lion’s Arch, at the time of his conscription he was inside Vigil Keep.

Maybe the Lionguard asked the Vigil first, and the Vigil was OK with it. Perhaps the Vigil don’t like Evon much either.

Wanderer.3248:

Shiren.9532:

As far as Kiel conscripting him, what gives her the authority to conscript a person who is neither currently inside of Lion’s Arch nor technically a citizen of Lion’s Arch? He wasn’t inside Lion’s Arch, at the time of his conscription he was inside Vigil Keep.

Maybe the Lionguard asked the Vigil first, and the Vigil was OK with it. Perhaps the Vigil don’t like Evon much either.

He’s shady, creating a bunch of noise and yelling in the keep… Taking up room with his merchandise and for sure stranded civilians behind.

I doubt they’d find any issue with it :P.