Guild Wars 2

So I need some thoughts on the Lore behind Necromancy and the Sylvari.. I have taken on trying to Roleplay a Sylvari Necromancer for the Nigthmare court, and need some input on a few questions I have

1. I know that Sylvari can not be made into Zhaitan’s Minions, and therefor we do not see Risen Sylvari. As I understand it, however, Snaff found that Dragon magic is different from “Normal” magic. Would that mean that Sylvari are possibly able to be affected by “Normal” Necromancy? Could for example, a Necromancer reanimate the corpse of a Sylvari, or perhaps just part of it??

2. Where exactly do Necromancer minions come from? In GW1 you had to have a dead corpse near in order to summon minions, but there appears to not be this restriction in GW2.. so.. If I am standing in Lion’s arch and I summon a Flesh Golem.. Where did the requite components come from??

3. What exactly is a shadow Fiend? I think its the only minion a necromancer summons that is not made of flesh and bone..

4. We see spirits all over the game, and you can talk to them, yet in Marjory’s story it seems special that she can talk to the spirit of the dead boy. Is this something that is normal for anyone, or could we simply assume that in the instances where a non-necromaner speaks to spirits, someone has offered a device or aid to the player? (Every time I recall speaking to spirits its for a Karma Heart)

I think that is all I have for now.. Maybe if I get some replies i will post more questions…

For #2, ANet’s answer in interviews is that magic in Tyria is a kind of technology (and magic infuses all technology). Necromancers have learned better ways, i.e. Noecromancy technology has improved, so they can summon undead without corpses. From necromancer dialog and some dynamic events dialog (e.g., with the centaur necromancer in northeastern Kessex), the corpses exist somewhere. The necromancer does not have to be close to them anymore.

For #4, talking to the spirits of the dead is a risky proposition. Part of the human personal story with the orders involves summoning a dead pirate to get information. It is made clear that this is difficult and risky. Talking to ghosts walking around is hit and miss if they give good information. The ghosts of Ascalon seem unaware that time is passing and are often acting out events from Guild Wars 1. Ghosts in Guild Wars 1 often did not realize they died centuries ago. Ghosts of necromancer in GW2 seem to be fully aware they are ghosts and time is passing and a few others seem to, as well (Adleburn and Nente). Other ghosts seem vaguely aware but don’t get what is happening (e.g. “it seems like we have been here for ages” in Ascalon Catacombs path 3).

There is also a ghost in queensdale (west side, near a farmhouse during the night ONLY) who is fully aware, she asked Grenth to watch over her family and her farm and he let her.

Marjory likely simply talked to the boys ghost and any necromancer could’ve done it.

Sylvari I doubt can be turned into undead/minions, though if you wanted to be creepy you could stick bones into a sylvari corpse and animate the skeleton <_<.

For number four (no idea for one through three), ghosts can communicate with anyone they like- Dougal, for instance, claimed familiarity with them in GoA, and he was a not particularly good thief. I think necromancers differ only in that they have some sway over the dead, be it in the form of calling them forth (see Priestess Rashenna) or controlling them (much rarer and more a ritualist thing, but it still happens, especially among necros who are dead themselves, like Murakai or Joko).

Likely to be partly the fact that almost all necromancers will be more comfortable around the deceased, and thus would have an easier time communicating with them while an average citizen may be scared or panicking if they see a ghost (would explain wy the dead lady only watches over the family farm, her children, and her husband when they are ALL asleep during the night, and during the day she disappears)

I’d attribute that more to the link between ghosts and the night- there are quite a few, often but not always hostile, that only show up when the sun is down.

On 1: We really don’t know for certain. However, we haven’t seen any undead plants in GW1, and the only possibilities for undead plants in GW2 are Zhaitan’s. That suggests that, while it might be possible for normal necromancy, it’s certainly harder. (That said, I’m pretty sure there were plant creatures in GW1 that left exploitable corpses, it’s just that for game mechanical purposes they produced the same flesh-and-bone minions as animals. So… inconclusive.)

On 2: I don’t think it’s that the corpse can be distant and is teleported to you as John implies. Killeen can only create minions from bodies in her surroundings, after all. I think what the distinction is is that the corpses no longer need to be fresh. A Necromancer can create a minion from long-dead corpses buried beneath the ground (who then dig their way up) or might be able to carry a supply of raw materials for the creation of minions.

3: Most people assume they’re spirits that necromancers can bind to their will. I don’t think we’ve ever had a solid answer.

4: I think this is basically a question of ‘does the spirit WANT to be seen?’ In Guild Wars 1, spirits could be seen if they chose to be (and with the exception of Shiro, cannot harm people unless they do so choose). However, if they prefer to remain hidden, special means such as becoming Weh No Su were required in order to be able to see them anyway.

In the case of Marjory’s Story, I think the dead boy is one that has not chosen to make himself visible – however, at this stage, necromancy has advanced sufficiently that Marjory was able to see and talk to him anyway. This may be an equivalent of Weh No Su, but it could also be that there’s a ‘middle zone’ where the ghost is not manifesting but isn’t deliberately hiding either, where lesser magics from necromancers and ritualists can draw them out.

Rizalee.4593:

-snip-

1. Sylvari are immune to bring corrupted by dragons – immune in the sense that they die when touched by corruption. So this would not affect normal necromancy beyond the fact that normal necromancy uses bones and muscle – which sylvari lack, being plants rather than muscle, skin, hair, and bones.
2. There are some cases – such as the Daithor the Drill event chain in NE Kessex Hills – that imply that they still are made from flesh and bones. I’ve also seen players comment about Trahearne saying he summoned his minions from the Mists? Though I don’t recall this so take it with very loosely. Magic has overall become far more powerful than in GW1, so I wouldn’t expect it to be the same. But typically I view it as summoning the bodies deep in the ground. However, I’d say this is pure mechanic – one of the biggest downsides of playing a minion master in GW1 was that you couldn’t get your little fleshy army up until the battle was more or less done, and they often died of degeneration before the next battle.
3. Shadow Fiends share models with Shades, which are a type of Nightmare; in GW1, Nightmares were heavily hinted to be a form of twisted hostile spirit. With Necromancy’s delve into spiritual stuff (more than GW1 at least), it wouldn’t be surprising if the Shadow Fiends were spirits controlled by necromancers (not dissimilar to ritualists). It should also be noted that Bria in Iron March has Shadow Fiends that possess bodies – displacing the owner’s spirit in the process, further implying being spirits.
4. It depends on the ghost in question. There are typically three kinds of ghosts: those who were made by the Foefire, those who realize they’re dead, and those who don’t realize they’re dead and are thinking they’re still in that time before they died (much like the Foefire mentality but still different). Foefire ghosts view all non-ghosts as charr and share Adelbern’s hatred – though the more higher ranked ghosts have shown to be more intellectual, and don’t necessarily attack on sight (but by all indications still see all as charr). Those who realize they’re dead are often tied to the world by some desire or strong will – these you can talk to and make sense out of… if they want to talk. It should be kept in mind that spirits can hide themselves from mortals’ eyes (the reason behind needing Weh no Su in Factions). THe third kind are best seen in Aurora’s Remains in SW Brisban Wildlands – they are not tied to the Foefire, and see players for whom they are, but think they’re still in those moments before death (in this case, the White Mantle bearing down on Shining Blade and Krytan citizens brought for sacrifice). These ghosts also refuse to believe they’re dead. No devices are needed, just the aptitude.

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

For #4, talking to the spirits of the dead is a risky proposition. Part of the human personal story with the orders involves summoning a dead pirate to get information. It is made clear that this is difficult and risky.

That’s summoning a ghost who’s in the Mists (in that case specifically, the Underworld).

The reason why it’s risky is because the Nightmares and demons are drawn to the mortal world like moths to a flame. They seek the world of mortals for food and to spread chaos. This does not count to standard spiritual talks (that is, talking to spirits whom are still in the mortal world).

There is the lady in white in queensdale, who is unexplained.

Though I’ll note the ‘generals’ in AC storymode seem completely able to tell the living in their conversations. They mostly talk directly toward Rytlock, bar Kasha blackblood (the necromancer) who actually seems polite and willing to let them walk away/leave, until Rytlock yells “DISPATCH HER” and combat starts.

That comes up a lot, just because the first words out of her mouth weren’t some variation of “I’m going to kill you!”, but Kasha really wasn’t being that nice. She told us point blank we don’t belong here, and there was nothing to indicate that she had any intention of letting us leave.

Kasha Blackblood: Why are you here? This is the land of ghosts.

That AND her tone of voice was MUCH friendlier/calmer then the other ghosts. Tone of voice can alter the context of a line, if she was more hostile in tone I’d believe it, but her tone and the wording weren’t openly hostile.

It does seem as if necromancer Foefire ghosts are a little more independent-thinking than the others – it gets called out that the one in Iron Marches, while still malicious, is unusual for a Foefire ghost.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. There are some cases – such as the Daithor the Drill event chain in NE Kessex Hills – that imply that they still are made from flesh and bones. I’ve also seen players comment about Trahearne saying he summoned his minions from the Mists? Though I don’t recall this so take it with very loosely. Magic has overall become far more powerful than in GW1, so I wouldn’t expect it to be the same. But typically I view it as summoning the bodies deep in the ground. However, I’d say this is pure mechanic – one of the biggest downsides of playing a minion master in GW1 was that you couldn’t get your little fleshy army up until the battle was more or less done, and they often died of degeneration before the next battle.

I think what everyone refers to in regards to Trahearne and his undead is the line from the personal story mission ‘Reconnaissance’ where Trahearne states that his minions are unable to be corrupted by Zhaitan because they were never alive to begin with which begs the question of where they’re coming from. I suppose you could argue there’s something to be had in the minions (at least for the skill Bone Minions) popping up out of a black well-like circle.

At the least I don’t think it’s implausible for necromancy to have advanced to the point where the flesh and bone needed for a minion can be created from magic itself when there is no corpse available.

Rizalee.4593:

So I need some thoughts on the Lore behind Necromancy and the Sylvari.. I have taken on trying to Roleplay a Sylvari Necromancer for the Nigthmare court, ? …

I’ve never seen a Nightmare court necromancer. Has anyone?

Obviously Sylvari have Necromancers, since Trahearne is one. But Sylvari Necromancers animate dead animals, not plants.

I don’t see why Sylvari corpses, and other plants, couldn’t be reanimated. Undead are not synonymous with Dragon minions. However, being able to animate dead plants, if possible, is probably an entirely different profession to a necromancer.

I have. They’re not the most common types, but there are a few generic ones around, especially in TA and the later level zones (that is, the Steamspurs).

Wings.5140:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. There are some cases – such as the Daithor the Drill event chain in NE Kessex Hills – that imply that they still are made from flesh and bones. I’ve also seen players comment about Trahearne saying he summoned his minions from the Mists? Though I don’t recall this so take it with very loosely. Magic has overall become far more powerful than in GW1, so I wouldn’t expect it to be the same. But typically I view it as summoning the bodies deep in the ground. However, I’d say this is pure mechanic – one of the biggest downsides of playing a minion master in GW1 was that you couldn’t get your little fleshy army up until the battle was more or less done, and they often died of degeneration before the next battle.

I think what everyone refers to in regards to Trahearne and his undead is the line from the personal story mission ‘Reconnaissance’ where Trahearne states that his minions are unable to be corrupted by Zhaitan because they were never alive to begin with which begs the question of where they’re coming from. I suppose you could argue there’s something to be had in the minions (at least for the skill Bone Minions) popping up out of a black well-like circle.

At the least I don’t think it’s implausible for necromancy to have advanced to the point where the flesh and bone needed for a minion can be created from magic itself when there is no corpse available.

Perhaps they are, as I was supposing, using any available minerals ect to craft the materials needed to craft the minions.. for example.. Bone is made from Calcium and other minders.. perhaps they are just pulling those minerals from the ground…

But this begs the question.. Sylvari are not flesh and bone.. but they are made up of the same base chemicals, Why could their corpses not be used to create those same items that can just be drawn up from the ground??

Wings.5140:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. There are some cases – such as the Daithor the Drill event chain in NE Kessex Hills – that imply that they still are made from flesh and bones. I’ve also seen players comment about Trahearne saying he summoned his minions from the Mists? Though I don’t recall this so take it with very loosely. Magic has overall become far more powerful than in GW1, so I wouldn’t expect it to be the same. But typically I view it as summoning the bodies deep in the ground. However, I’d say this is pure mechanic – one of the biggest downsides of playing a minion master in GW1 was that you couldn’t get your little fleshy army up until the battle was more or less done, and they often died of degeneration before the next battle.

I think what everyone refers to in regards to Trahearne and his undead is the line from the personal story mission ‘Reconnaissance’ where Trahearne states that his minions are unable to be corrupted by Zhaitan because they were never alive to begin with which begs the question of where they’re coming from. I suppose you could argue there’s something to be had in the minions (at least for the skill Bone Minions) popping up out of a black well-like circle.

At the least I don’t think it’s implausible for necromancy to have advanced to the point where the flesh and bone needed for a minion can be created from magic itself when there is no corpse available.

Necromancer minions aren’t corpses – they are parts of corpses. So arguably a minion was never alive (although bits of it were). Trahearne might have meant that Zhatain required whole human corpses to reanimate.

Abominations beg to differ…

Of course, at least… two minions explicitly are very much like a living creatue. Bone fiend and flesh wurm. Devourer and wurm respectfully. Flesh golem, blood fiend, and the bone minions are more likely to be combined corpses.

“It started out as a corpse, and now it’s a corpse again. " -female human necromancer.

As far as I know, they are creations made of bones and tissue of deceased, animated rather than reanimated.

Abominations beg to differ…

Of course, at least… two minions explicitly are very much like a living creatue. Bone fiend and flesh wurm. Devourer and wurm respectfully. Flesh golem, blood fiend, and the bone minions are more likely to be combined corpses.

I’d presume that the Abominations are grafted together after the dead bodies are corrupted… now that’s an unpleasant image in my head.

Abomination creation is a plot point in the story. It’s unclear whether the corpses come ‘pre-corrupted’, but they do need to be manufactured by Zhaitan’s minions rather than just appearing.

Though not always as apparently there’s a Mount Maelstrom event in which parts of risen corpses recombine into an abomination.

We have a good amount of undead abominations along the personal story and the one at Ossarium of the unquiet dead which apparently was crafted the moment we arrive is also an undead one. This might be enough evidence showing that abominations are kind of necromancer minions in form of reassembled corpses which can get corrupted into risen afterwards.

For Mount Maelstrom event should be listed that we are gathering risen corpses which forms automatically the abomination. Interesting in this case is that we are gathering the parts from the risen. So where is the difference/problem in corrupting dead bodies and let them form automatically into abominations and the peronal story in which we see them getting crafted and corrupted?

Hrrmn. I’d forgotten about the Maelstrom abomination. That might actually clinch it, in fact.

There’s evidence elsewhere that Risen flesh, once corrupted, is hard to actually kill. We can dismember the Risen so they can no longer fight, but actually killing them – well, there’s an ambient discussion in the asura lab near Tequatl about a solvent that they were hoping would permanently kill the Risen. The quote goes something along the lines of ‘(It’s dissolving them), but it’s not killing them. What’s left in the vats is… disturbing.’

So that might be what’s actually going on. Zhaitan only raises relatively intact corpses, but once the corpse is raised, it could be literally dissolved in acid without properly dying again – instead, when we ‘kill’ Risen, what we’re actually doing is rendering them unable to continue fighting. For some Risen, such as the high priests, it’s worthwhile for Zhaitan to invest the resources to rebuild them as they were before. For the rest, though, it’s more efficient to stitch parts together to build an Abomination than to try to restore the original corpse.

So, basically, it might be that Zhaitan requires a relatively intact, original corpse to raise, but as the corruption remains pretty much regardless of battle damage, the Abominations are the result of recycling parts from battle-damaged Risen. Kind of like building a car through cannibalising parts from other destroyed cars – the individual parts still work, they just need to be assembled.

Good point, and in the temple fights (at least for balthazar IIRC) they do mention “I have a feeling that thing will be back again…”

draxynnic.3719:

So that might be what’s actually going on. Zhaitan only raises relatively intact corpses,

But we have to remember, that a great many if not most of the risen on Orr are Orrians who died when the continent sank.. ~250 years ago. I find it highly unlikely, if not impossible for those corpse to have stayed intact for that long an amount of time.. Now some might say, well the ocean is cold, But I don’t think that it would be cold enough to prevent decay given that Orr is very close to the Ring of Fire Islands, and is next to a desert (Probably very near Tyria’s Equator)..

Next Question.. How does Necromancy relate to Zhiatan’s Corruption, I don’t feel like the two are related at all. A lot of people I speak to seem to think that Nercomancy will not work on Sylvari because of their plant like nature, but I attempt to point out that at the most basic level Sylvari and the other races are still made of the same chemical components.. Just put together in a different ways.. So Anything a necromancer could do to a human, they could do to a Sylvari.

So.. Thoughts? Could a necromancer stop the decay on a detached Sylvari Limb.. or Transfer life force from a minion or dieing creature into another Sylvari as a form of healing??

Don’t forget the Ossuary of Unquiet Dead quests where you have to shut down Zhaitan’s soldier-manufacturying plant beneath the Temple of Lyssa. You’re told very specifically that they stitch together mangled remains to create Abominations, and raise some pretty ancient remains as full bodies. So it’s clear that Zhaitan doesn’t need an entire corpse – he can reanimate dead flesh in any form he likes.

Rizalee.4593:

draxynnic.3719:

So that might be what’s actually going on. Zhaitan only raises relatively intact corpses,

But we have to remember, that a great many if not most of the risen on Orr are Orrians who died when the continent sank.. ~250 years ago. I find it highly unlikely, if not impossible for those corpse to have stayed intact for that long an amount of time.. Now some might say, well the ocean is cold, But I don’t think that it would be cold enough to prevent decay given that Orr is very close to the Ring of Fire Islands, and is next to a desert (Probably very near Tyria’s Equator)..

“They say the water there is black as night, like ink’s been poured into the waves. It never gets lighter, and the sun never warms it. Sailors have used Orrian water to freeze things even in the Maguuma Jungle’s heat. Just one drop turns meat into jerky. A canteen could ice over even the fires of Sorrow’s Furnace!” Sea of Sorrows, pages 45 and 46.

Rizalee.4593:

So.. Thoughts? Could a necromancer stop the decay on a detached Sylvari Limb.. or Transfer life force from a minion or dieing creature into another Sylvari as a form of healing??

These are good questions. On one hand, stopping the decay of plant life seems like it would be in Melandru’s (or even Dwayna) realm of influence rather than Grenth’s. I think we’d really have to know more about how necromancer works to determine it but I doubt necromancy stops the decay of plant life. Or even animal life to any great extent.

If necromancy is tied to blood the way it is in other game universe then necromancers may have little influence over plants. or, it may just be a different body of knowledge to incorporate necromancy that affects sylvari the same way sylvari need their own special brand of healers (menders).

Though, since all being in Tyria embody magic the life force transfer may be possible. perhaps dead plant material doesn’t hold on to magic life energy the way flesh does.