Guild Wars 2

What is the status of necromancy in Tyria? Everyone (on the NPCs side of course:)) trembles when hear “undead on the horizon”, yet performing necromancy requires no special conditions, or even a comment, reflected in story. Does simply Zaithan’s undeads are the bad ones because he’s, well, bad boss Zaithan? Or simply storytellers and writers missed that point?

I see your point, and i consider it valid.

Tough i believe the minions are have somehow the mind of it’s creator and do what they master wants.

The undead that Zaithan controls are evil cause cause Zaithan commands them to do evil deeds. Also the undead that player characters and NPCs create aren’t human looking, Zaithan also keeps the form of the dead, if it was human is stays human, which is slightly cruel to have your past friends attack you, you summon small critter-like minions.

There was a bit of lore about how necromancy and resurrection was impossible, but Grenth usurped Dhuum and had a much more lenient rules for death.

Necromancers can control the minions they summon, also summoning a dead smart sentient being and a mindless animal are quite different in any lore.
Zaithan also just summons up all he can and lets them roam free

I think one of the NPC necromancers, when summoning his minions, says something along the lines of “do not worry, my servants are free of Zhaitan’s corruption”. So I guess summoning undead is cool unless you use them for evil.

If you read the book ‘Ghosts of Ascalon’ one of the characters, a Sylvari Necromancer, animates a human that two of the human characters knew in the past. They freak out for the sheer fact that, “Hey! We KNEW that person!” but not for the reason that suddenly the dead came to life. It seems necromancers are still on the fringe of society, and magic itself, and as long as their minion aren’t human-like, people don’t mind too much.

Aoper.9824:

snip….

This is right. Necromancers seem to be well respected, as long as they respect the dead in turn. In one of the Norn quests you work with a well respected Necromancer to fight the Sons of Svanir.

You’ll notice that you never actually raise humanoid corpses. No skeletons, no zombies. You make flesh constructs, probably made of magic themselves, and animate them through necromancy.

Necromancers were always shunned for their… Interests. But as always, it is better to keep the guy interested in corpses as your friend, rather than your enemy.

I don’t see how using magic to create undead minions could be worse than openly calling yourself a Thief, or playing with fire all the time…

The undead raised by Zhaitan seem to retain some sense of self and can function without direct instruction. Although they are corrupted. Such as in the book Edge of Destiny. The leader of Lion’s Arch asks them to go battle an undead champion called Morgus Lethe, who was a Captain of LA before he fell in battle. Yet he still retains knowledge and information of LA’s defences and tactics.

The Necro minions seem more like simple minded constructs, almost like a primitive Asura golem. Need direct input to act, e.g. go attack this thing that I’m attacking.

Zhaitan raises both the bodies AND the souls of the fallen, binding them to his will. PC necromancers do not RAISE dead, they create flesh and bone golems from mismatch pieces of dead bodies. They are just that, bone robots, necromancers do not infuse them with souls (although technically they could). Tyrians do not really care about the sanctity of dead bodies, they have solid proof on souls’ afterlife (in the Mists).

Tevesh.1265:

Zhaitan raises both the bodies AND the souls of the fallen, binding them to his will. PC necromancers do not RAISE dead, they create flesh and bone golems from mismatch pieces of dead bodies.

There’s some inconsistency here from GW1, especially in how the necro mechanics were changed for GW2.

Recall that, in GW1, a necro actually needed a corpse to create a minion. That requirement is gone and GW2 necros can simply create minions out of thin air (this requires some explanation that I do not have).

Also, there were “masterless” minions in GW1. There were skills that allowed one necro to take control of another’s minions and there were also “orphaned” minions that mindelessly attacked friend or foe once severed from their master.

sterrell.2780:

Tevesh.1265:

Zhaitan raises both the bodies AND the souls of the fallen, binding them to his will. PC necromancers do not RAISE dead, they create flesh and bone golems from mismatch pieces of dead bodies.

There’s some inconsistency here from GW1, especially in how the necro mechanics were changed for GW2.

Recall that, in GW1, a necro actually needed a corpse to create a minion. That requirement is gone and GW2 necros can simply create minions out of thin air (this requires some explanation that I do not have).

Also, there were “masterless” minions in GW1. There were skills that allowed one necro to take control of another’s minions and there were also “orphaned” minions that mindelessly attacked friend or foe once severed from their master.

I don’t think the GW1 to GW2 changes conflict to a huge degree, though. From the corpse requirement, I could guess that (from a lore perspective) there is just so much death everywhere now that the necromancer is pulling up long dead corpses from the ground that have just fallen there and animating those parts.

And the masterless minions don’t conflict at all- both zhaitan and the pc raises a pile of parts and bends it to their will, but it isn’t their will that is holding them together. Their will is compelling them to act for them.

sterrell.2780:

Recall that, in GW1, a necro actually needed a corpse to create a minion.

Until Aura of the Lich was reworked and a Bone Horror spontaneously appeared, a la GW2.

I think it’s pretty weird too. Especially playing as a human with the noble background. Nobody seemed to mind this seemingly popular noble having a predilection for an undead thing following me around. And the dialogue seems out of whack. I just couldn’t get immersed and started again with a street rat background. At least, the dialogue seems to mesh better.

I believe that a necromancer simply draws upon death itself to create their own minions rather than the actual corpses.

It’s hard to describe but corpses in guild wars probably have a death-based “energy” that necromancers feed off of to create their minions.

This is why when a necromancer exploits a corpse in GW1, the corpse itself does not disappear. (Also for the purpose of simplifying things from a dev perspective.)

Whereas minions are animations which simply borrow energy from the dead, Zhaitan directly controls the corpses and souls themselves.

Your minions are withing well established necromancy regulations.
These regulations were written down by agreement between Humans, Charr, and Asura.
Sylvari weren’t there for it, but we eventually brought them in line

ArenaNet regulation standard 665 of the revival mortality code states:
“Don’t revive family that have become ex persons within the past 6 months.”
“No bringing back family pets either.”
“Do not utter Klatu Barata Necktie.”
There was a whole section on skeletons but it was a very dry proposal.

You also gotta understand that necromancy is universally considered one of the 4 schools of magic by humanity. Side note will we see some bloodstone action in the future with someone trying to control all 4 schools?

If I recall correctly, Traherne mentions that necromancer minions were “never alive”.. as constructs made of flesh and bone of dead that have passed away in the nearby area over unknown lengths of time.

Though, if you ask me, personally, that might be something we have to thank good ol’ Grenth for.

Back then in ye olde tyria, Dhuum was known for his “Death inevitable” stance on everything regarding necromancy, ressurection and such things in general. When he got kittenslapped by Grenth and he took up the mantle as god of the dead, necromancy and ressurection bcame a free tool for tyria again.

So, to an extend, necromancy is a gift from a GOD. Why would the humans of tyria pass a law that would forbid practising the art that they were given by one of their prime deitys? I believe grenth would be insulted.
Do you want the god of the underworld to be mad at you?

I thought so.

Zhaitans is neither Grenth, nor does he serve him. Thats why his minions are considered evil.
You will rarely meet a necromancer that doesnt praise Grenth in every second sentence and pretty much all necromancer rituals begin with him thanking Grenth for 10 minutes.
Thats pretty much it. If its sanctioned by Grenth, its cool to raise the dead.

Tevesh.1265:

Zhaitan raises both the bodies AND the souls of the fallen, binding them to his will.

A bit of a tangent, but I actually found a sad ghost somewhere (I wish I could remember more details) who was moping that his body was off doing Zhaitan’s evil bidding.

Which surprised me because most of the time he seems to bind their actual souls to his will as well? This is reflected in Grenth's reaper tasking you to get someone back from Zhaitan (by killing them again!), along with the Eyes being bound souls of Orrian royalty.

Maybe it can go either way? Or am I just missing something? shrug.

Most people who eat meat wouldn’t really have the stomach to know how the cow goes from moo to patty. I think necromancy is the same, as long as it doesn’t look human/charr/sylvar/etc. or activity do evil things people can ignore the whole Frankenstein-ish origin.

Crimsony.2514:

Tevesh.1265:

Zhaitan raises both the bodies AND the souls of the fallen, binding them to his will.

A bit of a tangent, but I actually found a sad ghost somewhere (I wish I could remember more details) who was moping that his body was off doing Zhaitan’s evil bidding.

Which surprised me because most of the time he seems to bind their actual souls to his will as well? This is reflected in Grenth's reaper tasking you to get someone back from Zhaitan (by killing them again!), along with the Eyes being bound souls of Orrian royalty.

Maybe it can go either way? Or am I just missing something? shrug.

There’s also this norn sailor crew that guides you to a map. These guys are ghosts. But when you get to their ship wreck you have to fight their undead risen bodies.

Roxy Painter.3691:

The Necro minions seem more like simple minded constructs, almost like a primitive Asura golem.

;) Someone’s been listening to Oola again.

Necromancers seemed to be a well respected if odd branch of scholarship in Tyria. I think, as someone mentioned earlier, it has a lot to do with the way the Afterlife works in Tyria. We KNOW the Mists exist, people KNOW that heroes go to the Hall and so forth. The minions are constructs of flesh and bone, useful and powerful. So long as nobody is desecrating the souls of the fallen, as Shiro did with his Afflicted or as Zhaitan does with his corruption, the people of Tyria accept it as a normal part of life. Its no different than wearing the pelt of a dead animal or crafting a weapon from it’s bones.

Humans still have graveyards and crypts to bury their dead, with tombstones that are quite wordier than typical of real life. That doesn’t sound like detachment from caring for physical remains. Norn prefer funeral pyres, which doesn’t leave anything to reanimate. I think most people of those races would prefer that they and their loved ones’ physical remains are not reanimated and forced to fight according to some strangers’ will.

I’d say Necromancers are treated respectfully and cautiously. The good ones are worth tolerating, especially the ones that aren’t minion masters. Their minions are a necessary evil at best, a powerful tool to fight far worse things. Also, Grenth and Raven both said it’s cool.

(This just goes for humans and norn. Sylvari don’t really understand yet and can’t be reanimated anyway. Asura are beyond sentimental gibberish when there’s SCIENCE to do. Charr just don’t like magic in any form, but have more reason to hate Elementalists. Necromancers aren’t responsible for their ghost troubles, but can be helpful resolving them, so that’s something.)

AkkiChan.7164:

If I recall correctly, Traherne mentions that necromancer minions were “never alive”.. as constructs made of flesh and bone of dead that have passed away in the nearby area over unknown lengths of time.

The question at the center of this discussion is the FIRST THING that came to mind when I heard Trahearne first say this.

However, I don’t recall him referring to them as actually being any kind of dead remains or anything like that. I might be wrong on that point, though which would make the rest of my post irrelevant but nonetheless…

Since the minions don’t resemble any living animals (save for the Flesh Wurm, which I haven’t studied closely enough to see if there are any differences between them and the regular Wurms you find all over the kitten place), and they definitely don’t resemble any sentient races, I’ve always been hesitant to think that the Necromancer is actually raises corpses.

Rather, I’m more inclined to believe what a few others have stated: minions are some type of animating principle drawn from the Mist and given physical form, rather than a frankenstein construct of dead tissue (because seriously, no matter how much death has occurred in Tyria there’s no way that there are layers upon layers of corpse bits covering every inch of the land). To be honest, I find that far more interesting than the cliche “corpse puppeteer” approach. As a roleplayer, that’s the perspective I take for my Necromancer, and fits better with the lore and the central threat of the undead to think that the Necromancers aren’t actually defiling corpses and souls; I think THAT is what makes Zhaitan evil, just like Shiro from GW1, and Necromancers good.

The bottom line here is that, unlike many settings, there’s nothing inherently evil about necromancy. Binding the soul seems to be restricted to those of at least dubious morality, but when it’s just the carrion, necromancy may wig people out emotionally, but intellectually they understand it’s a tool, and like a sword what really matters is what it’s used for.

With regards to the lore of minions… another possible interpretation is that along with collecting loot off enemies, necromancers are also picking up bits and pieces of corpse so they can raise minions later. Lorewise, they still need the raw material, but the process of acquiring it is streamlined – instead of GW1 where they were treated as non-portable and decayed into uselessness in minutes, GW2 assumes that any competent necromancer who’s planning on using minions can make sure they have the material to do so.

Trahearne states that his minions were “never alive” and that’s why they can’t be influenced by Z-man.
Sounds to me like they are just constructs, or bone/flesh golems.

Necromancers are like scientist practicing in morally grey and black-ish areas. Like it’s questionable to clone a human being but if one day you can clon and re-attach lost limb why not let them do they job. In GW1 there was even Order that was “taking care” of all necromancer who were trying to rise undead army and ride neighbors. Necromancer were also tasked with putting too restless spirits into grave (again).
But I must admit I always hoped for necromancers to be like Eve from GW1. She joined adventure more because of curiosity and abundance of dead bodies around main hero that for any philanthropic reason.

It boils down to the fact that there’s nothing inherently evil about raising a dead body in the way a necromancer does it, it’s all in what you use them for. Zhaitan’s method is somehow not the usual way; maybe because it keeps the body intact and gives them a semblance of life with speech and such, whereas necromancer minions are just body parts stuck together.

Think about it, necromancer minions should really be more useful in everyday life. Who needs living farmers when you can have animated undead farmers that never get tired and won’t need to eat or get paid?

That problem will be discussed in Guild wars 3 when Tyrians discover Capitalism

Necro minions, are pretty much shells they deliver a basic function and are made from bits and pieces. This is fine in GW terms, but when a necromancer brings back the souls of the dead and attach it to a skeleton binding it to its will that is wrong. Grenth is not happy with the second one.

Crimsony.2514:

Tevesh.1265:

Zhaitan raises both the bodies AND the souls of the fallen, binding them to his will.

A bit of a tangent, but I actually found a sad ghost somewhere (I wish I could remember more details) who was moping that his body was off doing Zhaitan’s evil bidding.

Which surprised me because most of the time he seems to bind their actual souls to his will as well? This is reflected in Grenth's reaper tasking you to get someone back from Zhaitan (by killing them again!), along with the Eyes being bound souls of Orrian royalty.

Maybe it can go either way? Or am I just missing something? shrug.

Willfully or forced?

Yeah the sad ghost was in Mt. Maelstrom.

Also, Orr itself, destroyed long before Zhaiton. Now, granted their shouldn’t even have been bodies… but lets say the water preserved them. The ghosts were seperated. and Zhaitan doesn’t have ghosts in his army. Look at Ascolan. that is ghosts. So, pretty sure mostly Zhaitans forces are the bodies, which may or may not have held much of their knowledge. A few cases of liches however, where the soul is still there.
Could be he does both too. If he gets you alive, he can enslave your soul. if he just gets your body, then its just your body.

I do find it interested in some games that have lore on necros as good. Diablo notably. The necromancers are shepards of the dead, and cultists of the true death god.
Here, although professions in general are not presented as things. There isn’t an elementatalist magical college. necros are not the local death priests. These things aren’t even really presented in game. No hints at schools one might have gone too, or where you would apply your trade outside of “adventuring”.

As far as I understand it people in Tyria don’t really have a problem with undead in general, it’s what you do with your minions after creating them that’s the problem.

I think Zhaitans army would get the same reaction if they were still alive, or elementals, or ghosts or whatever. The problem is a seemingly unstoppable army attacking, not so much them being undead.

Similarly I’m sure if a human necro found a way to raise a huge army and sent them marching on inhabited areas they’d get much the same reaction.

In the original Guild Wars there are 2 quests where if you are a necromancer you hunt down two other necromancers that have betrayed the order of necromancers. I know this because my main character was a necromancer. The first was Oberan the Reviled who created minions and was carving out an undead nation of his own from the shattered remains of Ascalon. The second was Verata who you had to fight off in the Northern Shiverpeaks because he was preying on the Ascalonian refugees, killing them or experimenting on them to make stronger minions. You eventually get to kill him as well, after fighting your way through his cult in Kessex Peak. So from the human perspective necromancers are generally feared, and it is shown that their minions can be reviled, but they are accepted as long as they follow the rules of the order. Sadly I know nothing about how the other races feel about necromancy, seeing as my only other one is a Sylvari.

Magoslich.6857:

Necromancers seemed to be a well respected if odd branch of scholarship in Tyria. I think, as someone mentioned earlier, it has a lot to do with the way the Afterlife works in Tyria. We KNOW the Mists exist, people KNOW that heroes go to the Hall and so forth. The minions are constructs of flesh and bone, useful and powerful. So long as nobody is desecrating the souls of the fallen, as Shiro did with his Afflicted or as Zhaitan does with his corruption, the people of Tyria accept it as a normal part of life. Its no different than wearing the pelt of a dead animal or crafting a weapon from it’s bones.

I play a Necro and have not played GW1. I have wondered about the role of Necromancy in Tyria. This explanation makes the most sense to me, thanks!

Necromancy in guild wars 1 was always considered weird but never evil. Necromancers usually have a profound respect for the dead, and needed to beseech grenth for the power over the dead.

In GW2 it isn’t that different. Necromancers have the most respect for the dead, despite what others think. When I was doing the Durmand priory storyline I found it interesting that when I chose to contact the dead pirate, the NPC said I was defiling the dead, yet the Necromancer who helped me treated the dead with great respect.

All in all bodies in the guild wars universe aren’t sacred, however nobody wants to see their recently killed friend kittened with.

As for bringing the dead out of nothing, we need to consider that our spells now are stronger than they were in guild wars 1. In the hall of monuments, the spirit of the skill trainer won’t teach you any spells because he believed they were nothing compared to what you could do.

I think necromancer minions are not afraid to die, and necromancers not afraid to lose them. So that pleases Grenth. Shows a confidence in the cycle.
Zhaitan and it’s undead are just like a blood clot.