Guild Wars 2

The library underneath the priory is of course a wealth of new information (and redcons). But one of the most important things I feel, was what the library had to say about the human gods. It implies something that we already suspected, that the human gods are not really gods, but just really powerful humans. It implies that they did bring humans to Tyria, and that they used the bloodstones to hide magic from the Elder Dragons. But it also implies that given enough power, any human could grow to their level of power and become a god (like Kormir).

The library also tells us that the gods definitely knew about the Elder Dragons, and possibly left, because their magic could be used to feed the dragons. This is yet another confirmation of a popular theory.

I also noticed a rather striking similarity between Abaddon’s proverb “Act with magic, act within reason, act without mercy”, and Ventari’s words: “Act with wisdom, but act”. Is there a connection here?

Did they mentioned “Humans” or just “beings”?

I remember the Asura book who described the six as just some beings with a lot of power (like any god).

By that race doesn`t really matter, does it?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The library underneath the priory is of course a wealth of new information (and redcons). But one of the most important things I feel, was what the library had to say about the human gods. It implies something that we already suspected, that the human gods are not really gods, but just really powerful humans. It implies that they did bring humans to Tyria, and that they used the bloodstones to hide magic from the Elder Dragons. But it also implies that given enough power, any human could grow to their level of power and become a god (like Kormir).

I think you should not see the book as proof of anything. It is an Asura’s point of view towards the human gods. It may be right but it could also be a consequence of racial bias. Anet loves playing with the fact that different groups can look at the same events or the same beings in very different ways, where it is unclear which group is right.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I also noticed a rather striking similarity between Abaddon’s proverb “Act with magic, act within reason, act without mercy”, and Ventari’s words: “Act with wisdom, but act”. Is there a connection here?

Seems like you’re grasping at straws here. The similarity is very superficial. Ventari says nothing about magic and would not say anything about acting without mercy. Though both call for action, they do so in very different ways.

What’s more, if I remember correctly, the book was written by Gadd. It might be another Gadd, but if it is the one we know, he was even more arrogant to humans than most asura, and while he studied the Shiverpeaks bloodstone, it’s not likely that he had the opportunity to develop more than a superficial understanding of the gods before his death.

It’s probably a reasonable source for the asura attitude of the gods, and it could well be right. But it could also be complete balderdash and wishful thinking on the part of an asura who has barely the slightest idea of what he’s writing about. Either way, it’s interesting, but I wouldn’t call it confirmation of anything. Unreliable narrator, after all.

Yeah, Gadd’s an Asura and the Asura have always thought of the gods as simply being extremely powerful being (i.e. why they don’t worship them). Kinda like the Charr, although they seem to have a bit more dislike of the concept of a god.

Gadd’s statements is very similar to Kerrsh’s at the beginning of the Path of Revelations.

He died within only a few years at most, less than a year at least, of learning of the surface. I wouldn’t put much stock into his views if the surface cultures.

Possibly a side note, but do we have any idea of what the Asura thought of the human “gods” before they met humans? I mean, it’s generally assumed (probably safely) that they had absolutely no concept or idea of the 5/6 gods before the Asura were driven to the surface, and immediately upon learning of them just dismissively categorized them as a part of their preconceived system of Eternal Alchemy. But is it possible that in their studies of this “alchemy” they already saw or speculated on these (what they admittedly state as large) “parts” of the alchemy that they later came to identify as the human gods? If that is the case, it’s entirely possible that Gadd’s writings are based on a bit more research than just some random “bookah’s” rantings on magical meta-physical beings that he just heard about after being thrust into the surface world. It would also explain why someone like Gadd would bother writing about the human gods at all, and not dismiss them as silly fairy tales. We know that the Gadd in question (assuming it’s the same one, which seems likely) had a very dim view on humans and human intelligence. They’re disposable labor, like screw drivers. That talk.

Before meeting the gods, no indication the asura knew of the gods. They knew of world-effecting events like the gift of magic, but had no explanation for them. That came from an interview, though I haven’t been able to find it again since.

The earliest view of the Six they had, that we know of is Kerrsh, who in all honesty had a very similar view to the Six before the conclusion of his quest chain and his journal in the upper Priory library. It would have been better to have that be Kerrsh’s theory.

I’d argue they hadn’t a clue based off of Ogden’s statement of how they have limited perspective because they attempt to define what cannot be defined.

Here’s a question…

If the ‘human’ gods aren’t humans, why do they take human form?

We’ve only seen the forms of two of the gods, Abaddon and Dhuum (and Dhuum wasn’t one of the six at the time), the rest is all Malchor’s interpretation … and he went blind from looking at them. I wouldn’t put too much weight on how the statues depict them.

It is my belief that the human Gods were human, or some kind of humans. I believe that perhaps they were great human Kings and Queens, brought to Tyria by the Forgotten. The Forgotten were some of the only races who survived the onslaught of the last rise, but only barely. They went into hiding, and perhaps they brought the humans gods to Tyria through the mists. These human gods, or human rulers, plundered Arah for magical artifacts, taking the bloodstones, and using them to become incredibly powerful. The library tells us that the bloodstones had been created by the Seers (and not by the gods) to preserve magic, and keep it from the Elder Dragons.

The human gods may have started rebuilding the world that was left behind in the wake of the last rise. But Abaddon had other plans. He felt that their magic should be shared. According to sources in the Priory vault, the human gods knew of the Elder Dragons (they left behind scrolls that name the elder dragons), and so perhaps Abaddon was acting in the best interest of their survival. Maybe he wanted to share the gift of magic to prepare for the war to come. The statue in the library shows us Abaddon as a man wearing a mask, not a monster with 6 eyes. This must have been what he was like before the realm of torment twisted him into the creature we fight at the end of Nightfall. I like to think that there is a positive side to Abaddon, and that he really was the good guy. This puts the other human gods in the wrong, how ever benevolent and kind they may have been (and Grenth is arguably a better god of death than Dhuum, whom he replaced).

There’s some interesting lore regarding the Tengu as well, in the library. It suggests that the Tengu took to the sky. Or at least, it is implied. Do they hide a secret army among the clouds to this very day?

Mad Queen Malafide, where’s the proof? You’re creating a theory based on nothing. If you want to write fan fiction, you’re in the wrong subforum.

There’s some interesting lore regarding the Tengu as well, in the library. It suggests that the Tengu took to the sky. Or at least, it is implied. Do they hide a secret army among the clouds to this very day?

Either you’re misremembering or misreading.

Here’s the book: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riding_the_Wind:_The_Tengu_Exodus

It seems to suggest that the Tengu wish to hide from the Elder Dragons instead of fighting them (which explains why they have retreated themselves to Sanctum Cay, built a big wall around it and do not let anyone in). It does not say that the Tengu took to the sky.

Diovid.9506:

Mad Queen Malafide, where’s the proof? You’re creating a theory based on nothing. If you want to write fan fiction, you’re in the wrong subforum.

The library is literally filled with hints at all of these points. I’m simply trying to assemble them into a story that makes sense. There’s quite a difference between making an hypothesis (what we do here all the time) and writing fan fiction.

Our first hint is the statue of Abaddon, which shows him as a human. The fact that he has such a prominent statue in the Priory no less, and in perfect condition, tells you a few things: First of all, he wasn’t a monster, he was a man. Second, that most likely this statue was also made by Malchor. It shows him in a positive light, with a scroll, as a god of wisdom. He doesn’t look at all frightening to behold. Imposing perhaps, but not evil.

One of the books describes ancient serpentine civilizations BEFORE the human gods came to Tyria. This must refer to the Forgotten, and it mixes up Prophecies lore a bit. It means that the Forgotten were there long before the human gods, along with many other civilizations (which we already know from other sources).

Another book tells us that the Seers, and not the human gods, made the bloodstones, to hide magic from the dragons. We are also told that the gods took the bloodstones from Arah. Another book by Gadd tells us, that in his opinion the human gods may have just been really powerful beings, and that given enough magic and time, anyone could become like them. Now this is just Gadd’s opinion of course, and its very biased, but it makes sense. If the bloodstones contained all this magic, and the human gods took the stones, maybe that is how they became (like) gods in the first place. They may have just been really important individuals (rulers), who ascended to godhood.

So why did Abaddon bring the gift of magic to the world? If what the books hint at is true, and that the human gods simply plundered Arah for magical artefacts, then we are one step closer to understanding Abaddon’s motivation for sharing the gift of magic with others. And it possibly shines a bad light on the human gods.

I’ve always theorized that Abaddon, being the god of secrets, knew about the Elder Dragons. Now we know from Ogden that all of the gods definitely knew about the Elder Dragons, which is why they retreated from the world (and they left behind scrolls telling us about the dragons and their names). Now this doesn’t give us any insight in whether Abaddon’s decision to share magic had anything to do with the Elder Dragons. But it is not far fetched I think.

The Seers made the magical stone, not the Forgotten.

In my opinion, the stone was a gift sent to the Gods who helped, one way or another, to rescue the remaining races (Dwarves, Jotuns, Seers, Forgotten).

The Gods had to be prominent at this point.

In every mention of the history of humanity and the gods they mention that the gods brought the humans to Tyria. Suggesting that they were already gods before setting food on tyria and arriving at Orr;

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324:

The Seers made the magical stone, not the Forgotten.

Ah, right you are. I’m mixing them up. Let me correct that then.

dsslive.8473:

In every mention of the history of humanity and the gods they mention that the gods brought the humans to Tyria. Suggesting that they were already gods before setting food on tyria and arriving at Orr;

That is a very long time ago. Accounts from back then are heavily biased from a human perspective. The fact that the gods brought humans to Tyria does not make them gods. We travel through the mists all the time, yet we are not gods. The fact of the matter is, we simply do not know for sure. We don’t know what they are, nor what they were. We only know what people think they are.

It’s also not particularly new information, it’s been in Arah explorable p4 since launch, as has been the status of Forgotten as one of the elder races.

Tuomir.1830:

It’s also not particularly new information, it’s been in Arah explorable p4 since launch, as has been the status of Forgotten as one of the elder races.

Yes it is new information. There’s even more that contradicts the GW1 manuscripts now.

“It was almost three thousand years ago that a race of serpents stepped out of the Rift onto the soil of Tyria. Unlike ordinary serpents, these moved upright, used language, and adhered to an elaborate culture. They had been summoned by the old gods,
brought to this world to be the custodians. Their task: shepherd the other creatures of the land through this time of transition, while the gods continued to create the
world around them.”

We now know this is not true. They had not been simply summoned by the old gods. Unless they mean gods even older than the human gods, or that the Seers summoned them? We also know that the human gods did not create the world around them, Tyria was already there. But it is possible that in the wake of the last Dragons rise, that the world had been devastated. We do not know what the world was like when the human gods arrived. Possibly the human gods made the world livable again.

“The serpents never returned to the world of men, and slowly, their influence faded. To humans, they were just a part of the past, spoken about only in legends and myths.
Eventually their memory all but passed from human consciousness. But they were not gone, only forgotten. Despite the serpents’ retreat, the gods never halted their work creating the world, and with the benevolence of indulgent parents, they decided to create magic. It was to be a gift to all the intelligent creatures—meant to ease a life of toil and make survival a less arduous task. When they had finished creating their gift, they presented it to the humans and the Charr, the Tengu and the dwarves, the minotaurs and the imps, and all the races of the land. But the gods had not counted upon one thing—greed. "

We know this also isn’t true. The human gods didn’t create magic, nor did they create the bloodstones. And it wasn’t the gods who presented it to the races of Tyria, it was Abaddon who shared it (possibly against the will of the other gods). One thing is bit odd, how the gods took back the gift of magic when Doric pleaded with them, and then sealed it with his blood. If they took it back the way as we are told, did they at first agree with Abaddon to share it? Why didn’t they take it back right away? And did they really take it back themselves, or did they ask the Seers to take the gifts of magic back for them?

In light of all this, it feels as if the human gods were surrounded by beings far more godly than them. Which makes me speculate that the human gods were just powerful beings, not gods (I tend to agree with Gadd in that respect). They became more powerful during their stay on Tyria. Perhaps powerful enough that people started seeing them as gods, and would later attribute more to them than what really happened (such as the creation of the world).

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324:

In my opinion, the stone was a gift sent to the Gods who helped, one way or another, to rescue the remaining races (Dwarves, Jotuns, Seers, Forgotten).

I share this opinion. It could have been a gift, or they simply took it for themselves. It is also possible that the human gods were brought to Tyria to help the races that were struggling. And quite possibly, they didn’t make humans, they simply came with the rest of their people (also humans, like them).

Warden Illyra: I have learned that the last time the Elder Dragons came, the Forgotten worked with Glint, who hid the old races from the dragons’ power.

Warden Illyra: This is the altar. It was here, before the human gods came, that Glint was freed of the Elder Dragons.

The human gods can most certainly be humans that have grown into incredible strenghts, the same way Kormir became a goddess.

But i do believe they were gods before arriving in Tyria. Traveling the mists isn’t an easy feat. In guild wars 1 we needed the gods help to enter the mists, in gw2 it’s certainly become easier , with the new knowledge of the mists and the technology, but what we learn from fractals of the mists is that we cannot control where we go. We ended up in spereate shards within the mists, without direction.

I’m more likely to believe the theory that has been speculated about recently that the Six gods are the equivalent of the elder dragons for their home world.

The theory that the gods became gods by scavenging magical artifacts has a few holes in it though. The bloodstone was designed to seal all magic away, to force the Elder dragons into hibernation. If there were artifacts around that could grant a mortal the power to become a god, it would have been a target for the Elder dragon, and they wouldn’t ahve been forced into hibernation since there would have been powerfull magic still in the world.

As such, if they came without their goldy abilites they wouldn’t have been able to break the seal on the bloodstone and in turn let magic back into the world. They had to have been powerfull beings already to accomplish that.

What confuses me, is the point where the human gods arrive on Tyria. So we know that during the last rise of the dragons, Glint was freed by the Forgotten, and with her help they hid the other races (thus preventing them being wiped out completely).

We know Glint has a realm hidden inside a grain of sand, and since she is a crystal dragon, she probably has some of her former master’s powers. She can read minds, and she can possibly bend light (like a crystal) to hide things from sight. She probably was a normal dragon initially, before being corrupted by Kralkatorrik, and turned into her crystal form (which she retained, even after being freed).

So did they wait out the apocalypse, till the dragons were done feeding, and went back to sleep? Locking away the magic in the bloodstones may have sped this process up, and limited the destruction some what. Were the human gods brought in after the devastation from the last rise, to a destroyed Tyria? And were they brought in for a specific purpose? To rebuild, or to fight?

dsslive.8473:

But i do believe they were gods before arriving in Tyria. Traveling the mists isn’t an easy feat. In guild wars 1 we needed the gods help to enter the mists, in gw2 it’s certainly become easier , with the new knowledge of the mists and the technology, but what we learn from fractals of the mists is that we cannot control where we go. We ended up in spereate shards within the mists, without direction.

It may simply be a matter of knowledge, and not only power, as Lord Odran proved. It is also possible the human gods had help. It could have been the Seers that guided them through the mists to Tyria.

dsslive.8473:

The theory that the gods became gods by scavenging magical artifacts has a few holes in it though. The bloodstone was designed to seal all magic away, to force the Elder dragons into hibernation. If there were artifacts around that could grant a mortal the power to become a god, it would have been a target for the Elder dragon, and they wouldn’t have been forced into hibernation since there would have been powerful magic still in the world.

That is a good point. But it is possible that the Seers unlocked the power of the bloodstones for them, in order to give them the power to rebuild Tyria. In which case, it was definitely a gift from a more powerful race, and they weren’t as powerful as we thought.

dsslive.8473:

As such, if they came without their godly abilities they wouldn’t have been able to break the seal on the bloodstone and in turn let magic back into the world. They had to have been powerful beings already to accomplish that.

That is why it is also possible that they had help, from the ones who created the bloodstones in the first place.

But this does raise more questions by the way. If the human gods knew about the elder dragons, why did they bring the humans to this world in the first place, only to flee themselves years later?

Another thing, if Glint can read minds, that probably means Kralkatorrik can also read minds. Can all dragons read minds? We know Mordremoth influences the mind, and so does Jormag. It doesn’t seem like a huge leap to assume so.

Chrispy.5641:

Here’s a question…

If the ‘human’ gods aren’t humans, why do they take human form?

Why do norn, jotun, giants, and largos take human form?

TAKE NOTE They are called “human gods” because they are worshiped by only humans in modern times. Humans never ever refer to them as human gods but as their other titles (most commonly, the Six Gods). In GW1, they were never referred to as the human gods, because back then they were still worshiped by the Forgotten (technically, they still are, but the Forgotten have upped and vanished).

Tuomir.1830:

We’ve only seen the forms of two of the gods, Abaddon and Dhuum (and Dhuum wasn’t one of the six at the time), the rest is all Malchor’s interpretation … and he went blind from looking at them. I wouldn’t put too much weight on how the statues depict them.

Supposedly, those statues of Malchor’s show their true form. However, we only see three such statues, two of which are corrupted utterly.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Statue_of_Balthazar_%28Cathedral_of_Glorious_Victory%29.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Statue_of_Dwayna_%28NPC%29.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Cathedral_of_Hidden_Depths.jpg

Those are the “true forms” of the gods that were shown to Malchor, depicted into statues, top two corrupted and twisted by Zhaitan thus no longer their “true forms”.

Abaddon’s form in GW1 appears to be him recreating a destroyed body.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I believe that perhaps they were great human Kings and Queens, brought to Tyria by the Forgotten.

Why do you think this?

Where would they have gotten their divinity from?

Take note that their divinity is very different from simply having a lot of magic – they cause blindness in those who see them, even when they want to be seen.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The statue in the library shows us Abaddon as a man wearing a mask, not a monster with 6 eyes. This must have been what he was like before the realm of torment twisted him into the creature we fight at the end of Nightfall.

Fun fact: his mask and a glove can be found in the Ruins of Morah mission; gw.dat entries state that Abaddon was recreating his body as Varesh’ rituals took place (these rituals were also unlocking the gate outposts, giving Abaddon access to more of his power).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

There’s some interesting lore regarding the Tengu as well, in the library. It suggests that the Tengu took to the sky. Or at least, it is implied. Do they hide a secret army among the clouds to this very day?

Saying that the other races “should take flight” is more of an analogy to the phrase “fight or flight” rather than “we’re flying in the sky!”

The book basically says “do not fight the Elder Dragons, run from them.”

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The library is literally filled with hints at all of these points.

No, not all of them.

Why do you argue that the human-looking gods (something we’ve known since Nightfall) are merely humans? Because of a book written by the always-known-to-be-highly-egotistical-asura-even-by-asura-standards Gadd? Hardly proof!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Our first hint is the statue of Abaddon, which shows him as a human. The fact that he has such a prominent statue in the Priory no less, and in perfect condition, tells you a few things: First of all, he wasn’t a monster, he was a man. Second, that most likely this statue was also made by Malchor. It shows him in a positive light, with a scroll, as a god of wisdom.

Prior to his fall, Abaddon was the chief deity of water and wisdom. It is said that while his heart was still just and fair, he was a handsome, calm figure with imposing blue eyes – deep, like the colors of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings. Princely amongst the gods, he was recognized as being the wisest amidst the Six, and his insight was not only welcome, but was also the most highly valued when the gods held council.

Few would recognize Abaddon as he is now. His eyes – once as deeply bright as the seas – were replaced by sunken, abyssal shadows. His wings lost their lustre and became scythe-like, bloodied and battered. It is said that Abaddon’s appearance is a direct representation of his heart. If that is true, then he must have fallen far.

From one of the asia pre-NF-release lore articles on Abaddon. Translation can be found here.

Abaddon’s body changed as his persona changed. Per the gw.dat, Abaddon’s body was destroyed in the past, and recreated during the course of Nightfall.

So yes, Abaddon’s body was changed. But he wasn’t “merely human”.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

One of the books describes ancient serpentine civilizations BEFORE the human gods came to Tyria. This must refer to the Forgotten, and it mixes up Prophecies lore a bit. It means that the Forgotten were there long before the human gods, along with many other civilizations (which we already know from other sources).

This was known since GW2’s release, as this is stated in Arah.

But that doesn’t mean the Forgotten brought humans. There’s no indications of this. You pull this out of thin air.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Another book tells us that the Seers, and not the human gods, made the bloodstones, to hide magic from the dragons. We are also told that the gods took the bloodstones from Arah.

To Arah, technically. This was also known since release.

A lot of these books is basically just restating past lore and interpretations.

Another book by Gadd tells us, that in his opinion the human gods may have just been really powerful beings, and that given enough magic and time, anyone could become like them. Now this is just Gadd’s opinion of course, and its very biased, but it makes sense.

Actually, it really doesn’t.

And I think this book was just one of the few books that act as a reference to the community – because more than once have we had people theorize that the gods were not gods.

This book does nothing but tells an arrogant asura’s view on beings they NEVER came into contact with – and couldn’t have learned about for very long. This book comes off to me as Gadd overhearing the Shining Blade pray to the gods and going “bah, such things can’t exist” without really knowing who or what the gods were.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If the bloodstones contained all this magic, and the human gods took the stones, maybe that is how they became (like) gods in the first place. They may have just been really important individuals (rulers), who ascended to godhood.

But lore indicates that the Six Gods came to the world as gods.

And even if this is not true – which you have 0 evidence to argue against as even Gadd states “Did they bring humans to Tyria? I cannot argue against this. it is an ancient belief that has no proof to support or deny it.” – but how could he know this, exactly, given how little time he spent on the surface, and so much of it was focused on studying destroyers and bloodstones.

And even if his final words ring true – “They are what we would all become if given the amount of magical energy they possess and allowed to live as long as they appear to have.” – then where would they get the magic. Perhaps the world they came from rather than the Bloodstone.

Keep in mind that they have an innate, uncontrollable aura that blinds all who look upon them. Such magic does not seem to exist on Tyria, for even the Elder Dragons are not blinding when seen.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

So why did Abaddon bring the gift of magic to the world?

You seem to forget something.

Angel McCoy said it was all of the gods, not just Abaddon, who granted magic. And according to Nicholas Sandford, Abaddon’s gift of magic was taking the bloodstone and giving the object (or pieces of it?) to other races.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Now we know from Ogden that all of the gods definitely knew about the Elder Dragons, which is why they retreated from the world.

Ogden, or anything else, never states that the Elder Dragons fled the world because of the Elder Dragons – Gadd theorizes this (but how could he? He died before the knowledge of the Elder Dragons came to be! – then again “Is it coincidence that they have been gone since the first dragon began to stir?” is proof that Gadd couldn’t have written this, he died before the first dragon began to stir).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That is a very long time ago. Accounts from back then are heavily biased from a human perspective. The fact that the gods brought humans to Tyria does not make them gods. We travel through the mists all the time, yet we are not gods.

You forget one thing:

No being can travel to the Mists without the aid of a higher being – be it god, avatar, or Spirit of the Wild.

Havrouns travel to the Mists via the Spirits; in GW1, we travel to the Mists via avatars of the gods.

Only Lord Odran – and those who used his portals – were able to travel the Mists without aid. And he did it after exceptional amounts of sacrifices.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The fact of the matter is, we simply do not know for sure. We don’t know what they are, nor what they were. We only know what people think they are.

And you take an asura who died before the knowledge of the dragons became known by anyone modern, claiming to know about the dragons, who’s known to be super arrogant and viewing humans as mere tools, over hundreds of years of human history that has yet to have reasonable reason for it being false.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes it is new information. There’s even more that contradicts the GW1 manuscripts now.

If by new you mean over 2 years old, then yes. :P

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

We now know this is not true. They had not been simply summoned by the old gods.

But they did come from the Mists. See this book.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And it wasn’t the gods who presented it to the races of Tyria, it was Abaddon who shared it (possibly against the will of the other gods).

“The gods (not only Abaddon) “unsealed” the Bloodstone and magic flowed back into the world. Humans and other sentient races of the time began using it.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Angel-McCoy-Interview/page/3#post2821776

Yes it was the gods.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If they took it back the way as we are told, did they at first agree with Abaddon to share it?

Yes. But Abaddon gave too freely – according to Sandford by giving the Bloodstone itself to the race

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

In light of all this, it feels as if the human gods were surrounded by beings far more godly than them. Which makes me speculate that the human gods were just powerful beings, not gods (I tend to agree with Gadd in that respect).

And how do you come to this conclusion?

Good points Konig, great to have you weigh in on this matter. As a side note, did you notice how the devs referenced some of your theories in some of the books in the library?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And even if this is not true – which you have 0 evidence to argue against as even Gadd states “Did they bring humans to Tyria? I cannot argue against this. it is an ancient belief that has no proof to support or deny it.” – but how could he know this, exactly, given how little time he spent on the surface, and so much of it was focused on studying destroyers and bloodstones.

And even if his final words ring true – “They are what we would all become if given the amount of magical energy they possess and allowed to live as long as they appear to have.” – then where would they get the magic. Perhaps the world they came from rather than the Bloodstone.

Keep in mind that they have an innate, uncontrollable aura that blinds all who look upon them. Such magic does not seem to exist on Tyria, for even the Elder Dragons are not blinding when seen.

One thing to consider perhaps, is that we know Grenth at least usurped Dhuum, with the help of the reapers. And we know Kormir ascended from a mere mortal to a goddess. This is my primary reason for thinking that perhaps there’s some truth to Gadd’s ramblings, regardless of how arrogant we may think he is. This implies a process of beings rising up to become more powerful beings, who then become worshiped as gods.

The human gods must have been partially human, since Grenth is the child of a mortal sculptor and Dwayna (they have to be compatible to mate). And we are told that Grenth rose to godhood with the help of 7 heroes, who would become his reapers.
I have difficulty believing that Grenth is an exception, and that the other gods are simply gods. I think they were all lesser beings once, and I think Gadd is right to some extend. Arrogance aside. There’s a pattern here, or at least it seems to me that there is one. If one or even two gods ascended to godhood, is it such a leap to assume that perhaps they all did?

If the human gods did not create the bloodstone, is it such a leap to assume that perhaps the beings who did so, were at least as powerful, or more powerful as the human gods? I think our perception of the nature of the human gods may have been clouded by human myths and legends.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

No being can travel to the Mists without the aid of a higher being – be it god, avatar, or Spirit of the Wild.

This is not strictly true. The Fractals of the Mists show us that travel through the Mists is definitely possible through technology.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The human gods must have been partially human, since Grenth is the child of a mortal sculptor and Dwayna (they have to be compatible to mate). And we are told that Grenth rose to godhood with the help of 7 heroes, who would become his reapers.
I have difficulty believing that Grenth is an exception, and that the other gods are simply gods. I think they were all lesser beings once, and I think Gadd is right to some extend. Arrogance aside. There’s a pattern here, or at least it seems to me that there is one. If one or even two gods ascended to godhood, is it such a leap to assume that perhaps they all did?

May have been, not must have been. I wouldn’t expect beings such as gods to follow normal biological rules on conceiving offspring. And while I don’t know what exactly he is, I’m pretty confident that Menzies is not a human. Could be Balthazar and Menzies were demigods like Grenth was, but human? I find that exceedingly unlikely.

Tuomir.1830:

May have been, not must have been. I wouldn’t expect beings such as gods to follow normal biological rules on conceiving offspring.

Fair point, but it hard to say conclusively either way.

Tuomir.1830:

And while I don’t know what exactly he is, I’m pretty confident that Menzies is not a human.

We have very little information on Menzies. All we see of him, is his army. So I’m not ready to claim that either way. But what ever he is, Balthazar being his brother must be too.

Tuomir.1830:

Could be Balthazar and Menzies were demigods like Grenth was, but human? I find that exceedingly unlikely.

Depends on what you mean by demigod.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tuomir.1830:

And while I don’t know what exactly he is, I’m pretty confident that Menzies is not a human.

We have very little information on Menzies. All we see of him, is his army. So I’m not ready to claim that either way. But what ever he is, Balthazar being his brother must be too.

Consider timeline. If they have the same father, that would make Menzies at least over 1800 years old by the time of GW1, as Balthazar is said to have entered Tyria with the head of his father, and a beheaded father hardly makes more children, and if they share mother and Menzies was of normal human age by the time of GW1, then that mother must have lived for thousands of years (or, well, at least over ~1800 years + whatever the age for fertility for immortal beings is). So, Menzies cannot be fully human. There is the possibility of Balthazar being born from human parents, one of which would also conceive Menzies with a being such as a god, but I don’t really buy that idea.

Could be Balthazar and Menzies were demigods like Grenth was, but human? I find that exceedingly unlikely.

Depends on what you mean by demigod.

Born between a god and a mortal in this case.

EDIT: Forgot to answer the last part…

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324:

In my opinion, the stone was a gift sent to the Gods who helped, one way or another, to rescue the remaining races (Dwarves, Jotuns, Seers, Forgotten).

I share this opinion. It could have been a gift, or they simply took it for themselves. It is also possible that the human gods were brought to Tyria to help the races that were struggling.

It’s a possibility, but if they “hoarded” the stone, as it is stated in the notes written by Sandford, I don’t see why the Forgotten and a bunch of Dwarves worshipped the Gods.

Given their knowledge of the Elder Dragons, those Gods had to be major actors in this conflict. Glint hid the remaining races during the last cycle, and I really don’t see the Gods appear from the middle of nowhere, grab this important stone and being worshipped.

Unless if grab the stone and survive to its power was akin to break Jormag’s tooth.

So, does anyone have any evidence that the human gods aren’t humans?

You can argue that they are divine beings, but that theory falls apart when you consider how ‘divinity’ has been abused in our history. Kings throughout history have claimed divine right to rule countries, and even farther back in history, Egyptian Pharaohs claimed to be literal gods, and the punishment for saying otherwise was death.

Its very possible that the gods are only claiming to be divine, because they have enough power to make such claims.

On the part where you would go blind for looking on them…Its only a magic spell. It might be possible that you wouldn’t actually go blind for looking on the gods, but they casted that spell because they want to prove their own divinity. We didn’t go blind when we were fighting Abaddon…..and even Dhuum who wasn’t really much of a god at that point, the point still stands. They were both still gods, and if they were actually gods…and divine, then their divinity would have caused us to go blind, and thus end the fight before it even starts. If one ‘god’ can make you go blind, then all the gods should make you go blind, but that is not the case.

On their immortality…magic. This game takes place in a world that is filled with magic. Its far more than possible that these gods, discovered the secrets to immortality through magic. Were they humans when they came to Tyria…probably not. They were already more than powerful enough to call themselves gods at that point, but, so were the Mursaat later on, and probably what was left of the forgotten and seers if they demanded that lesser beings call them gods too.

There’s more evidence to point out that the gods weren’t ‘gods’, just really powerful beings (and possibly humans), than there is to say that aren’t.

Philosophically, if a being has all the properties of a God then what stops it actually being a God? I don’t think there is much point in discussing whether the human gods were actually gods or not since they acted like gods and will remain gods to the humans who worship them. There are no other gods to compare them to, not yet anyway.

Stooperdale.3560:

Philosophically, if a being has all the properties of a God then what stops it actually being a God? I don’t think there is much point in discussing whether the human gods were actually gods or not since they acted like gods and will remain gods to the humans who worship them. There are no other gods to compare them to, not yet anyway.

…Elder Dragons? Their minions, as mindless as they are, regard their respective elder dragon as the supreme power….a God….and we killed one of those. And just like what happened when we killed a human god, that power went somewhere.

Seems like a good point to start comparisons to me.

Usually when I think of a god, I think of a being that is immortal, timeless, outside time and space, probably not physical, and a power than can shape the world. I think that is a reasonable description of a god, and I also think it is important to differentiate between this, and just a very powerful being. Magic is quite common on Tyria, so lots of mortals are capable of doing astonishing things (like some of Queen Jennah’s mesmer parlor tricks for example). So on Tyria (a world full of miracles and magic), more so than on our own planet, a god must meet a lot more criteria to be worthy of that title.

The Elder Dragons seem to be more powerful than the human gods, since they went into hiding. Because of this, they don’t really seem gods in comparison to the power of the Elder Dragons. If they were truly gods, wouldn’t they simply be able to unmake the Elder Dragons? But it seems the human gods struggle just as much with the Elder Dragons, as any common race before them. The Elder Dragons are only considered worthy of worship by their evil minions, but we don’t consider them gods. Isn’t that a bit bizarre?

sigh

It frustrates me whenever I see someone defining a god as something that can just wave their hand and cause anything that opposes them to simply disappear, if they could be bothered to do so. That may be the modern concept of a god in a monotheistic religion, but such gods work poorly in fantasy settings, unless they are portrayed as being as effectively completely non-interventionist.

Gods in polytheist systems – and the religion of the Six is a polytheist system, even before we consider the possibility of other gods like Koda – are much more constrained. One of the characteristics of this constraint is that the gods often end up fighting primordial monsters that, while not considered to be gods, do represent a substantial threat to the gods. To give just one example, for instance, nobody thought less of Thor that he was destined to die fighting Jormungandr at Ragnarok. And all these gods looked human and could often breed with humans to beget demi-gods and other legendary figures, and yet were still regarded as something separate to (and older than) humanity. In fact, while it’s not clear if it’s referencing their arrival on Tyria or their age in the wider universe, it has been stated in an old interview that ‘the gods are older than humanity, but not by much’.

As Konig says, we have a range of other races that appear human-like, but are not – norn, dwarfs, and largos just off the top of my head (not including sylvari and margonites because they do have an evolutionary connection to humans – margonites are ex-humans, sylvari were modeled on humans). Three of the gods possess, or have been depicted with, wings – Dwayna, Melandru, and Abaddon. Wings are not a human trait, so either they added wings to themselves afterwards, or these three gods were not human in the first place, although clearly it is possible for humans to ascend to godhood.

With this said, though, I would observe that the Elder Dragons do fulfill many of the criteria of being a god in a pantheist setting. The only reason I can think of to disqualify them is that gods usually provide an otherworldly afterlife to their worshipers. The Elder Dragons don’t seem to do this (Zhaitan arguably offers a kind of afterlife, but more by preventing souls from moving on than providing somewhere to move to). That said, Tyria is its own world with its own interpretation of terms – for them, the term ‘god’ may specifically apply to ‘a being like the Six’, and we wouldn’t call an elder dragon a god any more than we would say that a killer whale is a shark, even if they both play similar roles as aquatic apex predators.

Also, to nitpick on something that stood out on reading this thread:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That is a good point. But it is possible that the Seers unlocked the power of the bloodstones for them, in order to give them the power to rebuild Tyria. In which case, it was definitely a gift from a more powerful race, and they weren’t as powerful as we thought.

Even if this was the case, that the Seers handed over the Bloodstone to the gods indicates that the gods had something that the elder races didn’t have beforehand. Either power that they brought with them (which could quite possibly have been augmented by the Bloodstone), knowledge to use that power, or both.

It’s also worth noting that Warden Illyria’s book seems to confirm that the Forgotten too were non-native, coming to Tyria from the Mists as the gods did (albeit, presumably, significantly earlier than the Prophecies Manuscripts claim) and that they fought on behalf of the gods. The latter could be an alliance that came afterwards, but it’s possible that the Forgotten were the gods’ contribution to the fight against the dragons the first time around: the gods, for whatever reason, aren’t willing to face the Elder Dragons directly, so they sent the Forgotten to intervene on their behalf.

Amusingly, this could make Glint’s claim to be the first creature made on Tyria by the gods to be technically true from a certain point of view – Glint, as she existed in GW1 and up until EoD, existed only because of that intervention.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Usually when I think of a god, I think of a being that is immortal, timeless, outside time and space, probably not physical, and a power than can shape the world.

There are many pantheons that have a creator god and many other gods, physical and not physical, mortal and immortal. These pantheons are common in fantasy settings and were common in the real world mythology.

draxynnic.3719:

sigh

It frustrates me whenever I see someone defining a god as something that can just wave their hand and cause anything that opposes them to simply disappear, if they could be bothered to do so. That may be the modern concept of a god in a monotheistic religion, but such gods work poorly in fantasy settings, unless they are portrayed as being as effectively completely non-interventionist.

Actually……..This is not a modern concept at all. Its been around for as long as monotheistic religions have, which have been around as long as polytheism has.

draxynnic.3719:

Gods in pantheist systems – and the religion of the Six is a pantheist system, even before we consider the possibility of other gods like Koda – are much more constrained. One of the characteristics of this constraint is that the gods often end up fighting primordial monsters that, while not considered to be gods, do represent a substantial threat to the gods. To give just one example, for instance, nobody thought less of Thor that he was destined to die fighting Jormungandr at Ragnarok. And all these gods looked human and could often breed with humans to beget demi-gods and other legendary figures, and yet were still regarded as something seperate to (and older than) humanity. In fact, while it’s not clear if it’s referencing their arrival on Tyria or their age in the wider universe, it has been stated in an old interview that ‘the gods are older than humanity, but not by much’.

I need to type my own sigh here.

Wikipedia says :::
Pantheism is the belief that the universe (or nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity, or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God. Pantheists thus do not believe in a distinct personal or anthropomorphic god.

Polytheism refers to the worship of or belief in multiple deities usually assembled into a pantheon of gods and goddesses, along with their own religions and rituals

Pantheism is actually what the Asura believe in. The Eternal Alchemy is the totality of the entire universe, and that, is what is divine. While they don’t say it. That is what is god to them, the totality of the universe.

Polytheism is what Humans and Norn believe in. There are many nature spirits and many gods, and they all have their own temples and rituals associated with them. It does not necessarily separate religions and cults (like Greek and Romans had), but it doesn’t need to.

Also, in all earthly examples, humanity was created in god’s (or the gods’) image. Which means the gods had to have human qualities to create man. They were literally almost human, if not for the almighty powers they had. It is required in every single creation myth on earth, and it might not be much different than Tyria. this leads to the next post.

draxynnic.3719:

As Konig says, we have a range of other races that appear human-like, but are not – norn, dwarfs, and largos just off the top of my head (not including sylvari and margonites because they do have an evolutionary connection to humans – margonites are ex-humans, sylvari were modeled on humans). Three of the gods possess, or have been depicted with, wings – Dwayna, Melandru, and Abaddon. Wings are not a human trait, so either they added wings to themselves afterwards, or these three gods were not human in the first place, although clearly it is possible for humans to ascend to godhood.

And…in most fantasy setting, there are a lot of races that look like humans. So? In many of those fantasy settings, its explained why there are so many humanoid races (all have a common ancestor, god said so, the writer/devs said so, etc.)

So, which is it in Tyria? I’m not talking about just intelligent design, but evolution, magic, and science, as well. Why are there so many humanoid races? Here’s my crazy theory :::

Mursaat also look human, and they have wings. They were also a bit apprehensive towards other races, and disappeared at the time of the last rise of the elder dragons.

Because of the lack of evidence, Its just as likely that the Mursaat, instead of just hiding in the mists like cowards, did some experiments to find a way to kill the Elder dragons when they next arose, so it was actually them who created Dwarves, created Norn as an offshoot of the Jotun, created the Largos, and created the human race off of Tyria then brought them back. Based on this theory, the human gods are actually powerful Mursaat (which explains why many of them have wings), and Humans are actually an offshoot race of the Mursaat too.

Maybe its possible that so many of the gods also wore masks and helmets (Abaddon, Grenth, Balthazar, etc.) and changed their physical form (some removed the wings, other changed the form of their wings) so they would not look like traitorous Mursaat to Tyria’s other races and instigate a new war when they arrived. Maybe that’s why Balthazar was carrying his father’s head when he arrived on Tyria. There probably was a big disagreement between the allegedly larger pantheon of human gods off of Tyria before they arrive, and a war broke out, and the remaining victorious gods (Balthazar, Melandru, Dwayna, Abaddon, etc.) came to Tyria.

The human gods don’t necessarily have to be 100% human, but, they would have to have human qualities if they created humans, and the Mursaat and Dwarves are the only old races with those qualities.

Due to the lack of evidence, lets save that for another day or year, since, there is no evidence anywhere anyways to say why there are so many human-like races on Tyria.

Chrispy.5641:

Actually……..This is not a modern concept at all. Its been around for as long as monotheistic religions have, which have been around as long as polytheism has.

Monotheism does go back a long way, but has generally been in the minority until the spread of Christianity and later Islam. Most people up until then would have thought of a ‘god’ as a polythiest god (sorry about the confusion, btw: I can only blame sleep deprivation for getting those two mixed up) which definitely does not include omnipotence as a required characteristic. Usually, it’s great supernatural power, influence over a domain of significance to human life (the sun, weather, love, war, etc), and influence (collectively if not individually) over the fate of souls. Omnipotence has only become part of the modern concept of god due to the influence of the Abrahamic religions. Go back two thousand years and the typical person would not regard a god as omnipotent, just a lot more powerful than most humans. This makes divine omnipotence a relatively recent idea.

Besides, even if you want to nitpick on ‘modern’, the point still stands: Omnipotence is not a characteristic of polytheistic deities. (Sometimes you have an ‘over-deity’ who is omnipotent, but such individuals are almost always non-interventionalist.) The Six are a polytheistic pantheon. Thus, we should not be expecting them to be omnipotent.

Regarding the point about the gods having at least some human-like character: This is not something I would oppose. Physically-speaking, I said myself that the winged gods had forms that were essentially humans with wings – the wings make them not human, but they are still certainly human-like in shape. Mentally – the gods represent concepts important to humans, which means that they’re going to have at least enough commonalities to humans (and other sapients) in their thought processes to recognise the same processes.

But there’s still a big distinction between ‘human-like characteristics’ and ‘they are human’. The Aesir and Vanir, the Titans and Olympians, the Sumerian and Egyptian gods – these were all beings that predated humans in their respective mythologies. Humans may have been created in their image, and thus humans may share some of their characteristics, but they were all something distinct from and older than the human race.

My old dictionary says that Pantheism can also mean the worship of all gods, or presumably gods for everything (as an alternative to one god for everything).

True enough, but polytheism was what I meant. My sleep-derived mind basically just went ‘pantheism is what you call it when there’s a pantheon, right!’, even though I knew better.

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324:

It’s a possibility, but if they “hoarded” the stone, as it is stated in the notes written by Sandford, I don’t see why the Forgotten and a bunch of Dwarves worshipped the Gods.

Given their knowledge of the Elder Dragons, those Gods had to be major actors in this conflict. Glint hid the remaining races during the last cycle, and I really don’t see the Gods appear from the middle of nowhere, grab this important stone and being worshipped.

We know they did from GW1, however, regardless of what the gods did with the Bloodstone and “other treasures”.

Chrispy.5641:

So, does anyone have any evidence that the human gods aren’t humans?

Dwayna, Melandru, Abaddon, and Grenth all had/are occasionally depicted having wings. Humans don’t have wings. Dhuum was a skeleton without legs (during GW1 – so this could be akin to Abaddon’s appearance in GW1, not the original body/appearance). Beyond this, no not really.

But there’s nothing to say that they are humans. So the argument ends up becoming like the “gods are tied to dragons” hypothesis – there is neither enough evidence for or against.

Chrispy.5641:

You can argue that they are divine beings, but that theory falls apart when you consider how ‘divinity’ has been abused in our history.

Our history doesn’t have beings that blind you just by staring.

Our history doesn’t have magic.

Our history doesn’t have beings that reconstruct their body into insectoid/fleshy gargantuan floating head and hands. Or known fallen gods that are giant skeletons without legs.

Our history doesn’t have magical spirits of animals that represent and effect entire species.

The comparison falls short very fast.

Chrispy.5641:

On the part where you would go blind for looking on them…Its only a magic spell. It might be possible that you wouldn’t actually go blind for looking on the gods, but they casted that spell because they want to prove their own divinity.

If this was so, then why would they bother with the statues? The entire point behind the statues was because they could not stand before mortals without blinding them. If it were mere spell, they would have stood before mortals without blinding them. Or at the very least, they wouldn’t blind Malchor who made the statues.

Chrispy.5641:

We didn’t go blind when we were fighting Abaddon…..and even Dhuum who wasn’t really much of a god at that point, the point still stands. They were both still gods, and if they were actually gods…and divine, then their divinity would have caused us to go blind, and thus end the fight before it even starts. If one ‘god’ can make you go blind, then all the gods should make you go blind, but that is not the case.

Fallen gods. They were both fallen gods. And the fight with Abaddon – who was recreating a body – was backed by a blessing by the five gods – maybe that blessing was “you won’t go blind”.

Chrispy.5641:

There’s more evidence to point out that the gods weren’t ‘gods’, just really powerful beings (and possibly humans), than there is to say that aren’t.

This depends on how you define gods.

In almost every single polytheistic setting, the gods are not infallible immortals. They have eternal youth, can create life out of clay, give birth to monsters (literally), are incredibly powerful, and live in the afterlife. This matches the Six Gods almost perfectly.

Chrispy.5641:

…Elder Dragons? Their minions, as mindless as they are, regard their respective elder dragon as the supreme power….a God….and we killed one of those. And just like what happened when we killed a human god, that power went somewhere.

Seems like a good point to start comparisons to me.

Gods can be killed. Norse gods, Shinto gods, Greek gods, Roman gods; they can all die.

In my theory, the Elder Dragons and the Six Gods are just about the same – just from different worlds.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Usually when I think of a god, I think of a being that is immortal, timeless, outside time and space, probably not physical, and a power than can shape the world. I think that is a reasonable description of a god, and I also think it is important to differentiate between this, and just a very powerful being.

You realize that you just excluded every polytheistic god out there ever.

Congratulations Thor, Zeus, Hades, Odin, and all the others out there. You’re not gods!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The Elder Dragons seem to be more powerful than the human gods, since they went into hiding.

Who said they’re hiding?

Oh yeah, Gadd, who didn’t even know of the existence of the Elder Dragons.

That makes perfect argument.

Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING says the gods are hiding. They left the world – they did so before the Elder Dragons even awoke. And Jeff Grubb explicitly stated why the Six Gods left.

“The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back. Also, the destruction of the big A and his replacement with Kormir in the Pantheon resolved one of their ties with physical contact with Tyria. So there are ties, but you just can’t ring them up to take on the Elder Dragons.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dolyak-Express-Jan-10-2014/page/3#post3545340

I think the words of Jeff Grubb hold more weight than an egotistical-even-by-asuran-standards asura who died before the knowledge of Elder Dragons became known in the modern world.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If they were truly gods, wouldn’t they simply be able to unmake the Elder Dragons?

You know, world ending eldritch abominations, which the Elder Dragons are, tend to be god killers in ancient myths.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Chrispy.5641:

On the part where you would go blind for looking on them…Its only a magic spell. It might be possible that you wouldn’t actually go blind for looking on the gods, but they casted that spell because they want to prove their own divinity.

If this was so, then why would they bother with the statues? The entire point behind the statues was because they could not stand before mortals without blinding them. If it were mere spell, they would have stood before mortals without blinding them. Or at the very least, they wouldn’t blind Malchor who made the statues.

Why indeed. If Lyssa could live hidden/veiled in the village of Wren, and not force the whole village to go blind, then obviously the Gods could stand before mortals without blinding them. If Lyssa could hide her blinding ‘divinity’ why can’t all the gods?

You guys are trying to make sense of a lore that will never work simply because it made sense in the framework of GW1 where we could play only humans and – unless we throw away 90% of that lore – cannot be applied to GW2’s attempts at creating a framework.

Five races, five different belief systems and since arenanet never presented us with a framework in which all of these belief systems would fit, we are left with speculations.
Eternal alchemy? Gods? Spirits? These can all be dismissed as racial beliefs but we would need something that explains how the world of Tyria works, preferably without totally disemboweling GW1 lore and with tons of retcons.

Chrispy.5641:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Chrispy.5641:

On the part where you would go blind for looking on them…Its only a magic spell. It might be possible that you wouldn’t actually go blind for looking on the gods, but they casted that spell because they want to prove their own divinity.

If this was so, then why would they bother with the statues? The entire point behind the statues was because they could not stand before mortals without blinding them. If it were mere spell, they would have stood before mortals without blinding them. Or at the very least, they wouldn’t blind Malchor who made the statues.

Why indeed. If Lyssa could live hidden/veiled in the village of Wren, and not force the whole village to go blind, then obviously the Gods could stand before mortals without blinding them. If Lyssa could hide her blinding ‘divinity’ why can’t all the gods?

The distinction seems to be that the gods can’t be seen in their true form without risking going blind. Lyssa was in disguise. The point of Malchior’s sacrifice was so that people could see what the gods truly looked like, not whatever disguises and avatars they use when walking among humans to avoid blinding them all.

kolompi.1287:

You guys are trying to make sense of a lore that will never work simply because it made sense in the framework of GW1 where we could play only humans and – unless we throw away 90% of that lore – cannot be applied to GW2’s attempts at creating a framework.

Five races, five different belief systems and since arenanet never presented us with a framework in which all of these belief systems would fit, we are left with speculations.
Eternal alchemy? Gods? Spirits? These can all be dismissed as racial beliefs but we would need something that explains how the world of Tyria works, preferably without totally disemboweling GW1 lore and with tons of retcons.

Technically speaking the Eternal Alchemy is how everything fits together. It’s not so much a religion of worship as a scientific theory that there is an overarching structure to reality and that the deities of other race’s religions do fit into that.

Its a distinction without a difference. If the Gods could hide their divinity, then why didn’t they? Why did they shut themselves away from the world after Malchor made the statues if they could hide their blindness inducing divinity? Why does it seem like the Gods treated their divinity like a curse that kept them from the humans they loved (well, some of them)? When we see a Blinded Rytlock later (if that’s who that is in that tumblr picture)…was he actually unconsciously blinded because he looked at the gods in their full divine glory, or was he blinded by more conscious means?

Riot Inducer.8964:

kolompi.1287:

You guys are trying to make sense of a lore that will never work simply because it made sense in the framework of GW1 where we could play only humans and – unless we throw away 90% of that lore – cannot be applied to GW2’s attempts at creating a framework.

Five races, five different belief systems and since arenanet never presented us with a framework in which all of these belief systems would fit, we are left with speculations.
Eternal alchemy? Gods? Spirits? These can all be dismissed as racial beliefs but we would need something that explains how the world of Tyria works, preferably without totally disemboweling GW1 lore and with tons of retcons.

Technically speaking the Eternal Alchemy is how everything fits together. It’s not so much a religion of worship as a scientific theory that there is an overarching structure to reality and that the deities of other race’s religions do fit into that.

Its like the Theory of Everything, only with lots of different Gods and types of Magic that go alongside the laws of physics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything

Edit : Some of the Margonite also have wings (and were once humans before Abaddon transformed them)…what’s up with that?

Riot Inducer.8964:

Technically speaking the Eternal Alchemy is how everything fits together. It’s not so much a religion of worship as a scientific theory that there is an overarching structure to reality and that the deities of other race’s religions do fit into that.

Ogden seems to disagree, to a degree anyway:

How does this all tie into the Eternal Alchemy?

Ogden Stonehealer: Ah yes. Only you asura would attempt to quantify nature itself. But then, your people are somewhat limited. No offense.
Ogden Stonehealer: By attempting to define the undefinable, you actually move further from the truth rather than closer to it.
Ogden Stonehealer: The Eternal Alchemy, nature, our world, the All—however you want to name it—is beyond understanding.
Ogden Stonehealer: We can only grasp portions of it. Even the Elder Dragons are small relative to the All.
Ogden Stonehealer: We see only certain layers of the Mists, the Elders, and Tyria. Anything beyond that is hidden from us.
Ogden Stonehealer: We must content ourselves with first understanding what’s before us.
Ogden Stonehealer: Right now, the Elder Dragons are the most critical to understand.

Presumably, because there’s something inherent about their natural form’s appearance that causes the blindness, and they’re not capable of assuming a disguise that is exactly identical to their natural form that doesn’t have the blindness? Kind of like how nymphs in earlier editions of D&D could not turn off their ‘so beautiful that anything that looks at me risks getting blinded’ trait.

Really, this whole side of the argument rests on whether you think all of the gods (not just the darker ones like Abaddon and Balthazar, but also the gentler ones like Dwayna and Melandru) are heartless enough to deliberately blind somebody as ‘proof of their divinity’ – and that’s something I don’t think can be proven either way.

To be honest, though, it’s also kinda irrelevant: I could easily come up with explanations for the blinding property based on them being exactly what Gadd claims, having to do with high concentrations of magic in a smaller volume than the Elder Dragons. That half of them apparently have wings is, I think, a stronger piece of evidence against them all being humans.