Guild Wars 2

I was talking to a few Guildies about Kormir and the events of Nightfall. Many in my Guild said that in fact it was Kormir who started Nightfall. I ofcourse Wiki’d it and quoted a line from Varesh Ossa’s page. They told that it was incorrect. All I want to know is who “Started” Nightfall was it Varesh Ossa or Kormir?

I believe they are correct. By going into the ruined city of Fahranur and reading the words of the Apocrypha (which the hero destroys later) Kormir started the chain of events that lead to Abaddon’s possible release. Now if you wanna get really technical it was Abaddon, because of his machniations with the Lich Lord and Shiro, but if we’re talking just Nightfall, by reading the words it allowed Abaddon’s taint on her. Now obviously Kormir didn’t ever succumb, but she did kinda start it.

<Party leader>: “What about you, Kormir? Are you an innocent as well?”
Dunkoro: “What? Kormir is the most honorable of the Sunspears.”
Kormir: “No. You are right. I am far from innocent, and my crimes are the greatest of all.”
Kormir: “It was I that found the inscriptions in Istan, and I that awakened the Apocrypha of Abaddon.”
Dunkoro: “It is not your fault, Kormir, how could you have known?”
Kormir: “Tales of the forbidden ruins are part of our history. My curiosity and concern made me ignore those warnings.”
<Party leader>: “Even though you knew it to be an evil place, you explored the ruins.”
Kormir: “I did, and worse. I read the words of the Apocrypha. I felt his spirit. I was drawn into his web.”
Kormir: “Now my body withers, and my spirit walks in Torment. That is why I serve as your guide.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_Pain

So by stirring the apocrypha and reading it inscription, Kormir started Nightfall? What about this quote from the wiki " Varesh and Kahyet send Kournans to Fahranur to recover a scroll from the Apocrypha before its destruction at the hands of the Order of the Sunspears."

Well to be honest, I never got whats the big deal about the Apocrypha. It kills a few workers, but after we got in and killed it, everything was fine, except of course that we found out that Varesh was a worshiper of Abaddon.
But I’m pretty sure Varesh followed Abaddon, before the Apocrypha was awakend and since Abaddon clearly influenced people before that point and even attacked the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, I hardly see what big of a difference the Apocrypha made. At best, it was ment to weaken/defeat Istan, like the Lich was supposed to do in Tyria and Shiro in Cantha.
I would call it part of the Nightfall, but not the start. Too much happened before that point.

I’m not saying that Varesh wouldn’t have started things if Kormir hadn’t gotten there first, or that Kormir was knowingly doing it. I’m just saying that yes she kind of did start things (in a sense). Remember things technically started with the Titans in Tyria.

Neither.

Narcemus.1348:

Remember things technically started with the Titans in Tyria.

Nope. It began much earlier than that.

Abaddon started the process that led to Nightfall roughly 200 years prior to GW1, by sending demonic agents into the world who would indirectly cause the Jade Wind, Cataclysm, Searing, and spread knowledge of Abaddon. And if you want to argue it, the plans for Nightfall may have begun as soon as 272 AE, when Glint compiled the Flameseeker Prophecies.

However, Kormir took the blame for it per the reasons Narcemus said. Basically, Nightfall had been a 200+ year plot in the process of being made; Prophecies and Factions were both attempts at Nightfall (the event, not the campaign), but were stopped midway. In Elona, however, Kormir was the first to activate the Apocrypha, which was something that Varesh and Kahyet were going to do anyways, so she unintendedly began the last real attempt at it, which ended up succeeding more than the others.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Well to be honest, I never got whats the big deal about the Apocrypha.

An Apocrypha by definition is an ancient forgotten text of usually forbidden knowledge. In this case, the Apocrypha held information about Abaddon and how to bring about Nightfall.

It was this knowledge that Varesh used – via a scroll – to cast the three rituals that weakened the barriers between Tyria and the Realm of Torment at Gandara, Sebehlkeh Basilica (I probably slaughtered the name), and the Mouth of Torment.

Without the Apocrypha, Varesh wouldn’t have been able to perform those three rituals. There’d be no demons and Margonites in Elona, no portals, or any of the like.

All other attempts made were failed, and only occurred at places where the Mists were already close. Just like how the Fury intended to launch an invasion from the Door of Komalie (but was cut off for reasons unknown to those in the Realm of Torment). The Tomb of the Primeval Kings was just a one-front attack. Nightfall was meant to be a total conversion of the world into torment, not just hordes of demons invading.

But you’re right its not the start, just gave what Varesh needed to bring about the “real” Nightfall.

Yeah you are right Konig. I should have said it started with the Fortune Teller and Shiro, not the Titans. My mistake. I had mentioned them, but rookie mistake I went with the first game not the first timeline event.

Well, it might have “started” with the titans that showed before the Burnt Warband, since those showed up around the same time the Shiro incident began.

Just theorycrafting, but I think it really started with Lord Odran opening those portals. Why else would two/three agents of Abaddon head into the world at the same time a couple years after Odran opened his portals (give him time to have died in the Hall of Heroes after exploring)?

Heck, I could see agents of Abaddon planning the “incident” that lead to Lord Odran’s death. I mean at that point in time he had the power over those portals, but with his death, they could slip out without a problem.

Kormir played a vital role in starting Nightfall. However, if it had not been her it would have been someone else eventually. All that was required was for someone to dig around in the forbidden ruins and awaken the Apocrypha. There was no one cause to the start of Nightfall. A trap was set and eventually someone fell into it.

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

Kormir played a vital role in starting Nightfall. However, if it had not been her it would have been someone else eventually. All that was required was for someone to dig around in the forbidden ruins and awaken the Apocrypha. There was no one cause to the start of Nightfall. A trap was set and eventually someone fell into it.

True, but the theory here is that the Sunspears, as guardians of Istan and by extension the First City were directly responsible for preventing exactly that kind of action. Remember that Fahranur was off limits for a reason, even enchanted to be guarded forever by the ghosts of dead sunspears. A sunspear, specifically, was the key to making it all happen. In this case it was kormir, who by extension enabled Varesh, who was a worshipper of Abaddon to actually have a means to obtain power from him. Without the direct actions of a sunspear (Kormir in this case, but any high ranking sunspear could have made the call eventually) Varesh would have had to take istan and the first city by force, and even then figure out a way past the invincible ghosts protecting it, which I’d imagine would prove nearly insurmountable for an army of any size.

Everyone (in general) who blames Kormir does it because it’s easier to blame her since they don’t like her all that much. Why? Because after she is rescued she has no eyes and therefore doesn’t actually help in combat situations. Then shortly after that, she is dragged into the Realm of Torment by Abaddon so the rescue was pointless.

(Note, since it happened in a split mission which some players might not see, this was probably done to reconcile the campaign so it could continue on a single path after.)

Then Kormir drives the party towards the lost Temple of the Six during the “Gate of Madness” mission, and the human gods tell her the matter lies with her and the party. Come the events at Abaddon’s Gate where he is defeated and Kormir steps into place to keep things stable as the new Goddess of Truth, and a certain subset of players feels they were robbed out of becoming a god by her.

So they rationalize backwards from that point so they can find something to blame on her, to get a reason to hate her other than “sister stole my godhood!”.

PopeUrban.2578:

Remember that Fahranur was off limits for a reason, even enchanted to be guarded forever by the ghosts of dead sunspears.

Er… those ghosts weren’t there as enchanted guardians – at least I’ve never seen this being indicated. They’re just ghosts of the area – much like the restless undead there. And on a quick check of all related dialogue, I see nothing to imply such. Those ghosts were warning Kormir not to (re)enter the area and she just ignored them. The Kournans likely did the same.

PopeUrban.2578:

the invincible ghosts protecting it, which I’d imagine would prove nearly insurmountable for an army of any size.

Ghosts are far from invincible. Let alone those in Fahranur. Remember how we killed ghosts to get through? Or had to prevent Kormir from easily killing them?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So they rationalize backwards from that point so they can find something to blame on her, to get a reason to hate her other than “sister stole my godhood!”.

We’re not talking about hte player’s unreasonable hate for the character, but the lore reason why Nightfall started – Kormir and the PC blames her for beginning Nightfall. Which while she’s not innocent, is a bit more than what’s true.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So they rationalize backwards from that point so they can find something to blame on her, to get a reason to hate her other than “sister stole my godhood!”.

We’re not talking about hte player’s unreasonable hate for the character, but the lore reason why Nightfall started – Kormir and the PC blames her for beginning Nightfall. Which while she’s not innocent, is a bit more than what’s true.

I don’t recall my character actually blaming Kormir, instead being taken aback by the admission and going: “you didn’t know what was going to happen” and “at least you’re trying to make it right”.

Anyway, I do apologize, I thought we were discussion how people go on about Kormir starting Nightfall. And by “people” I thought it was meant “players”.

<Party leader>: “What about you, Kormir? Are you an innocent as well?”
Dunkoro: “What? Kormir is the most honorable of the Sunspears.”
Kormir: “No. You are right. I am far from innocent, and my crimes are the greatest of all.”
Kormir: “It was I that found the inscriptions in Istan, and I that awakened the Apocrypha of Abaddon.”
Dunkoro: “It is not your fault, Kormir, how could you have known?”
Kormir: “Tales of the forbidden ruins are part of our history. My curiosity and concern made me ignore those warnings.”
<Party leader>: “Even though you knew it to be an evil place, you explored the ruins.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_Pain_%28cinematic%29

Though only a portion of the cinematic, it’s pretty blatant that the PC is outright blaming (at first in the form of question), and that it’s Dunkoro who’s more taken aback rather than the PC.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

<Party leader>: “What about you, Kormir? Are you an innocent as well?”
Dunkoro: “What? Kormir is the most honorable of the Sunspears.”
Kormir: “No. You are right. I am far from innocent, and my crimes are the greatest of all.”
Kormir: “It was I that found the inscriptions in Istan, and I that awakened the Apocrypha of Abaddon.”
Dunkoro: “It is not your fault, Kormir, how could you have known?”
Kormir: “Tales of the forbidden ruins are part of our history. My curiosity and concern made me ignore those warnings.”
<Party leader>: “Even though you knew it to be an evil place, you explored the ruins.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_Pain_%28cinematic%29

Though only a portion of the cinematic, it’s pretty blatant that the PC is outright blaming (at first in the form of question), and that it’s Dunkoro who’s more taken aback rather than the PC.

I stand corrected.

. . . of course, it being my character, I say he just shook his head and got back to the business of killin’ demons in the Realm of Torment.

I just wanted to note, this was also posted on the second post of this topic

Abbadon for all we know could of started his plan right after he was imprisoned in the the realm of torment, the only noted events when is when Shiro turned the jade sea into actual jade and the forest to stone(200 years before factions) Vizier khilbron being tricked into causing the cataclysm to protect Orr from the charr (which actually happens between the time of the searing and the game after pre-searing) and of course Kormir awakening the apocrypha to get the maint events of nightfall started