Guild Wars 2

I still do not realize why everyone says that Sylvari are actually immune from all dragon’s corruption. While what I’m about to say it’s pure speculation, it sounds quite logical to me. (and maybe, not to you)
Sylvari’s bodies cannot be corrupted, I’ll give that to you.

• But what do you think the Nightmare is?
• What do you think originated it?
• Why does the Nightmare affect so much one individual’s mind to the point where one absolutely cannot go back to the Dream?
  (as hinted during the Sylvari’s personal storyline:
  “<Player name>: So, it’s true. Once you join the Nightmare Court, you change. Ysvelta can’t return to the Dream.”
  And also:
  “Ysvelta: Oh, dear heart. The nightmare hasn’t deceived me. It has freed me! It can free you, as well. Leave behind Ventari’s shackles and take my hand.
  Ysvelta: Together we will conquer Astorea, and then the Grove. We will bring nightmare to the Pale Tree herself—and free our people, forever.
  <Player name>: Look at her, Tiachren. Nightmare has changed her. Is this really the woman you love?
  Tiachren: No. Ysvelta wouldn’t say such a thing. You’re right. I’ve truly lost her. There is no return from nightmare. I see that, now.”)

The point is, we all believe the corruption has to manifest physically, through mutations or such. We believe it has to be evident. And while we can’t be certain that the “Shadow of the Dragon poisoning the Dream”, to quote Caithe, isn’t truly Mordremoth’s shadow (actually most of the characters ingame point it to be Zhaitan’s shadow), I have very strong reasons to believe so.

• Why would the Dream be attacked by Nightmare Hounds and not by Risen then?
• What could corrupt the Dream, if not its direct opposite, the Nightmare generated by Mordremoth? Surely, this isn’t the work of a mere Sylvari, not of Faolain, not of Cadeyrn, but of a greater force.

“But arlowix, you’re just making things up. There’s no connection between the Nightmare (and the Nightmare court, of course) and Mordremoth!”

There is no prove, but there is loads of evidence pointing towards that. And I’m trying to see if you see it as well, or I’m just a fool.

• Why would the Great Jungle Wurm rise near Twilight Arbor? (p.s: the GJW is clearly pointed to originate from a darker being from within Wynchmire Swamp by Gamarien.)
• Why would the Summoned and Blighted Husks be present in Twilight Arbor?
• Why shouldn’t the Nightmare Court be the corrupted MINIONS of Mordremoth?

Every single Icebrood, for istance, thinks their lifestyle is a choice of their own. They think choosing Dragon as a Spirit of the Wild grants them strength and power. What I want to point out is, they THINK they are choosing Jormag, while (and there is load of evidence through multiple dialogues which I’m not even going to point) the truth is that they are corrupted by Jormag. They do not realize they are corrupted, they think their will is their own, and that they are choosing Jormag just because he’s superior as a Spirit of the Wild. But the sad truth is, they are NOT free-thinkers. Believing to have made a choice doesn’t actually mean you did it.

Why did I digress so much? I’m just trying to prove the connection between Nightmare Court – Mordremoth and Icebrood – Jormag (I mean, that the way they corrupt is similar). Maybe to all you who are reading this, it seems quite obvious. But I read the lore forum costantly, and document myself in the game and on the wiki, and I never saw anyone highlighting this. On the other hand, I see everyone’s defending the Sylvari’s incorruptibility while it is so crystal-clear and under our very eyes that they ARE corrupted.
Example: Norn choosing to follow the Hare spirit (yes, there are) are Norns making a choice. Icebroods are not.
In the same way, I can say Soundless are Sylvari making an effective decision. Nightmare Court are not. They are just being corrupted.

I do not know if there are already multiple threads about what I wrote (I bet Konig already wrote this somewhere. As I couldn’t find this, I’ll just write it in my own words, and thoughts, and try to stir a discussion up).

What do you think?

^Konig actually did write something like this. You probably just couldn’t find it because, as many people state, the Search feature on this forum stinks. His basic thought was much like you stated. That sylvari’s physical form is immune to corruption, but this does not mean that their mental state is. Now we have not seen a sylvari corrupted by Jormag (which if this was true could be a possibility) but this may be because Jormag’s corruption always eventually creates a physical change, and as is stated in game multiple times, once physical corruption takes root in sylvari they merely die instead of converting. Another option being that, there just haven’t been much sylvari going up that way except with the direct motivation to fight Jormag.

I do want to argue something that you state though. I do believe that people have a choice as to whether they follow Jormag or not. I think this is most apparent in the story of Jora and Svanir. Both were offered Jormag’s power and she fought against it while he accepted it. Jora payed a price for her fighting Jormag’s grip (losing her bear form for a while), but nonetheless she won. I believe that it seems like joining under Jormag’s banner is a choice, but once you have made this choice your mind is no longer your own. It is like fighting a mental war. Once the Jormag gets into your mind he is rooted there and it is lost to you. I would say the same is true of the Nightmare Court, and the way that they are treated. Their torture against sylvari is aimed at showing them the darkness and getting them to let it in. Once in, this darkness (perhaps Mordremoth, perhaps not) cannot be quite rooted out. I almost want to say that we were close to seeing this process take place in Caithe during the Edge of Destiny book.

I agree with most of what Narcemus said, but I do think both Jormag and the nightmare lean more towards mental war than a choice. Both can be thought, and under certain circumstances won against, but in cases where the conditions are favorable to either of the two, resistance can be overcome and the mental change can be forced. The power is not entirely in the victim’s hands.

I would agree with that. It is really a measure of not only mental strength, but also stamina. Eventually, under too much duress, you will fail. We can see this happen in the Honor of the Waves story with the Voice. Joining Jormag wasn’t her choice, but under so much duress she finally caved and was consumed.

This is the point, Narcemus (by the way, thanks for your replies): even the strongest will eventually fall.
I want to make another comparison, if you are familiar with either the Mass Effect or Lovecraft universe for istance. (even though I think the Mass Effect example applies better to our case)
I want to compare the Reaper’s Indoctrination to our “mental corruption” applied by Jormag or Mordremoth.
Nobody of the indoctrinated was actually conscious of being indoctrinated: they just fell deeper into it until they were fully corrupted…err, I mean indoctrinated. And not a single being was able to withstand the indoctrination. The same thing applies to Cthulu making people insane…his own way of corrupting people.

The point of corruption is that at some point, through multiple means and ways, everyone is corruptible. (Hell, I could even say think Two Face of Batman – from paladin of justice to villain or even more, Arthas from WoW).

While not all of my examples may apply FULLY to our case – that is, Jormag and Mordremoth’s corruption – that is my way of seeing the dragon corruption.

As you say, the Voice of Koda didn’t choose to join Jormag, but eventually its mind and will was broken.
Now I ask you: who more than the Voice of Koda would resist Jormag’s hold?
Who more than a person whose home was pushed miles away from its real, resting place?
Who more than someone who had to lead his people through multiple dangers caused by Jormag and that also had to witness her friends and own race die by its minions?

But, eventually, she became a minion of Jormag.
My point is (with all the examples and comparisons) that no one is unbreakable – and that means that no one truly has a choice. They can prolong the inevitable with their willpower, stamina and intellect, but eventually, everyone can and would be corrupted.

edit: I await your, and anyone’s, point of view. Please contribute to this discussion with your thoughts.

As for your rhetorical question- well, anyone, really. The Voice had by that point degraded into insanity, a natural occupational hazard disconnected from Jormag. And I disagree with the indoctrination comparison too- when you save a sylvari just before they fall to Nightmare, they say they could, and in cases can, feel it- this isn’t some insidious change, they will certainly notice that it is happening. Jormag’s corruption seems to induce physical agony, so the same thing goes there.

But to your point, and minor corrections aside, I do agree. Once one falls to Nightmare/Jormag they are no longer free agents, and those who willingly choose that fate in the first place are thereafter slaves.

I agree that anyone and everyone will likely fall to corruption after so much time, effort, etc, etc… The thing is they can be saved from the situation. If we had gotten there moments earlier in HotW we could have brought the Voice away from the constant oppression of corruption and she might have survived many more years. As long as you fight the corruption, you are still free of it. But once your will breaks, it is over.

My take on this is thatthe sylvari were always meant to be minions of mordremoth. It was ventari’s nurturing and tablet that changed the mind set and attitude of the sylvari to what they are now. The nightmare court merely want to become what they should have been and serve the great jungle dragon (even if this isn’t rationalized yet by the court).

I think I also heard this one from WP. Either way something in your post (not sure what it was) got me thinking.

We can agree that Mordremoth is the nature element dragon. An interesting thing about nature is that it takes its time to get around to things. There is an argument that says that we don’t see trees as real living things because they outlive us on an order of magnitude, but they are living. In the same way we might be missing the point (in-character in-Tyria) that Mordremoth is on the move, simply because she is taking her time. Psychological warfare is completely plausible as a slow and reliable way to get things done.

So there you go, another reason to think that Mordremoth is behind the nightmare court – it’s completely in-character as to what you would expect nature to do. Additionally it’s also rather interesting that Mordremoth would corrupt the Sylvari first, considering that that have a closer “attunement” to her element.

If the theory is solid it also means Mordremoth is likely not going to be the next dragon we see: at the time we become “very aware” of her she will likely be behaving much in the same way that Primordus is – nightmare sylvari roaming around the landscape like destroyers currently are; or maybe not – it depends how much time she chooses to take. We may find (or rather, I hope) the entire Pale Tree sylvari race corrupted and another tree working to cull them.

Felvine.9681:

My take on this is thatthe sylvari were always meant to be minions of mordremoth. It was ventari’s nurturing and tablet that changed the mind set and attitude of the sylvari to what they are now. The nightmare court merely want to become what they should have been and serve the great jungle dragon (even if this isn’t rationalized yet by the court).

Malyck kinda disproves that theory. He was born from a completely different Tree, that in no way had Ventari’s influence, and he is completely against the Nightmare Court and what they stand for.

If nightmare is Mordremoth’s corruption, I think another question that would need to be answered would be why does it affect no other races?

Every single example of dragon corruption we have seen has been very indiscriminate in its effect. There are risen Quaggen, Branded devourers, and Icebrood wolves… why would Mordremoth only be able to corrupt a single race (and a very new one at that)

Also corrupted people have all been shown to “lose their personality” upon corruption. The lutenists still show intellect, but the rank and file do not. This would greatly point against Nightmare being a form of dragon corruption. Courtiers are still very obviously extremely smart, unlike an icebrood, risen, branded etc…

Malyck kinda disproves that theory. He was born from a completely different Tree, that in no way had Ventari’s influence, and he is completely against the Nightmare Court and what they stand for.

Admittedly, they were trying to enslave/kill him.

@Zamalek: Jeff Grubb in an interview names off some of the “themes” for the Elder Dragons – naming, iirc, “fire, ice, vegetation, and elements” – This would point Mordremoth not being “nature” but “plantlife” which is an interesting difference (as nature is… well, a lot more than just plants), and Kralkatorrik seems to be not Crystal but Elements (he and his minions uses fire, earth, crystal, and lightning).

@Imperatora: Who says it affects no other race,?

Battle for Wychmire Swamp meta gives implications that the things usually tied to the Nightmare Court – Husks – are tied to something else. You got Summoned Husks, Blighted Husks, Avatars of Blight, Blighted Mortars, and… Blighted Grubs. Aside from the Great Jungle Wurm that is.

That’s 2 non-plant races affected – wurm and grub. THen you got other plants to – if the Nightmare is Mordremoth’s corruption than the things they corrupt are affected by Modremoth. Nightmare Hounds being the most obvious, but there’s also an event (aside from TA exp) where treants – specifically Mosshearts – are twisted by the Nightmare Court in Caledon Forest (lowest left corner).

And I’m going to have to tell you you’re wrong about something – the losing their personality. It’s actually a twisting of it, but they retain their memories and personality. They just also become fanatically devoted to their respective dragon. This is best seen in Sea of Sorrows novel where even the “rank and file” of the Indomitable retain their personalities (twisted though), but hints to it are also throughout the game – especially the icebrood and veteran risen (which aren’t “lieutenants” just slightly stronger). Icebrood quaggans are a prime example among the “rank and file” minions. There’s also the Risen villagers and the like that can be found mining, sleeping, and farming around Orr.

Imperatora.7654:

If nightmare is Mordremoth’s corruption, I think another question that would need to be answered would be why does it affect no other races?

Every single example of dragon corruption we have seen has been very indiscriminate in its effect. There are risen Quaggen, Branded devourers, and Icebrood wolves… why would Mordremoth only be able to corrupt a single race (and a very new one at that)

This isn’t quite true, the Nightmare Court can influence fern hounds in the same way as sylvari, and quite a few other creatures besides (mosshearts, jungle wurms, spiders, jaguars, and they at least thought they could do it to the White Stag), plus there’s the blighted grubs and plants that appear during the jungle wurm event.

Thanks everyone for their thoughts. I want to theorycraft and think with you again.

Until this post, I always disproved the theory that the Nightmare Court might indeed be Sylvari’s original purpose. However during the fights and dialogues with Nightmare Court it is quite evident that their main point is “Our minds have been opened: we see the truth behind our nature as Sylvari. We will fight you to show you the truth too”. Just like Ysvelta does, or thinks, during the assault on Astorea. She’s very confident she leads the attack to free the “shackled” Sylvari of the Pale Tree.

I always thought it was every Nightmare Courtier’s twisted mind to speak, and that their “true” vision of the Sylvari nature was nothing but blind fanaticism and Mordy’s corruption speaking.

But the point is, every Courtier is quite convinced of that. One could argue: “Well even Jormag’s minions say that Dragon is the strongest Spirit of the Wild, or that they are superior to other non-icebrood Norns. That doesn’t mean they are right.”
But still, let’s assume they know something we don’t.
Their main point is that they have accessed a superior truth – the one and the only. While I disproved of every theory that submitted the Sylvari as Mordremoth’s creation, I think that it could be possible. Mordy’s corruption, under this perspective, assumes more the form of “restoring them to the purpose Mordremoth wanted them to have”. And the Sylvari as rebels fighting for higher ideals.

I know I’m probably not saying anything new but I want to see why you wouldn’t say that the Sylvari are Mordremoth’s creation.
After all, we know nothing about the seeds in the cave. Just stop for a moment and think: what creature holds so much power and magic to create an entire race?
It’s either Melandru or Mordremoth for me. The fact that Mordremoth has been described as “vegetation” dragon all adds to the fact that the cave that contained the seeds was protected by plant-like humanoids.

It all makes sense to me. Does it for you?

Once we finally see a jungle dragon storyline, it seems unlikely that the nightmare court will be entirely unrelated to the dragon. However the court do not need to be dragon minions. There could be many other explanations, such as the dragon being connected to the dream of dreams in a similar way to the Sylvari and subconsciously poisoning it with nightmare. Amongst the ‘what ifs’ you have some interesting concepts such as the jungle dragon fabricating nightmarish wyld hunts for the nightmare court in order to control them.

arlowix.5039:

I know I’m probably not saying anything new but I want to see why you wouldn’t say that the Sylvari are Mordremoth’s creation.

Why would I say they’re not Mordremoth’s creations?

1. Malyck (acts more like Caithe than any Nightmare Courtier; the NC even wanted to corrupt him).
2. Immunity (unique unto sylvari and, indirectly, Forgotten).
3. Nothing to disconnect the Pale Tree from Mordremoth’s corruption (it requires unique magic – that like the Forgotten’s or the gray gemstones Snaff found, the latter only breaking mental ties and thus wouldn’t even free a dragon minion).
4. Their appearance (see below).

arlowix.5039:

what creature holds so much power and magic to create an entire race?

Well, Grenth supposedly made Grenches. And Dwayna supposedly made the ancestors of harpies (if Elonian legends are to be true). Abaddon, Melandru, and Grenth are all known to have changed life from one thing to another (Margonites; Ewan and his tribe; the twin brothers who tried taking Grenth down). I’d say the gods are still on par for the whole “changing/making races.”

arlowix.5039:

The fact that Mordremoth has been described as “vegetation” dragon all adds to the fact that the cave that contained the seeds was protected by plant-like humanoids.

It all makes sense to me. Does it for you?

Here’s a question for you: Why would Mordremoth – who’s last awakening was centuries if not millenniums before humanity arrived on the world – create humanoid minions when all other dragon minions are more draconic the more powerful they become (and the weaker they are, the more like their previous form they are – exception being Destroyers, made in mockery of living beings)?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. Malyck (acts more like Caithe than any Nightmare Courtier; the NC even wanted to corrupt him).
2. Immunity (unique unto sylvari and, indirectly, Forgotten).
3. Nothing to disconnect the Pale Tree from Mordremoth’s corruption (it requires unique magic – that like the Forgotten’s or the gray gemstones Snaff found, the latter only breaking mental ties and thus wouldn’t even free a dragon minion).

Here’s a question for you: Why would Mordremoth – who’s last awakening was centuries if not millenniums before humanity arrived on the world – create humanoid minions when all other dragon minions are more draconic the more powerful they become (and the weaker they are, the more like their previous form they are – exception being Destroyers, made in mockery of living beings)?

If you take the time to read my whole theory about Sylvari, you’ll see how I answer your question. (thanks for the time you took to read this post. People like you and anyone who intervenes on the lore forum sparks a smile on my face)

In my theory, the seeds were actually Mordremoth’s own creation: his … “Investement” for when he’d wake up again. Put in better words: his future army.
He creates the seeds and has some of his servants watch over them for when the time for their use would come. Eventually, Ronan inadvertitely jeopardized the whole plan by killing the caretakers and taking the seed.

In this theorycraft, I’m asserting that the seeds were Mord’s creations.
And here comes the Pale Tree: Melandru’s intervention. The Pale Tree acts as the Sylvari’s caretaker, and tries as hard as possible to preserve its children from Nightmare. The Dream is either Melandru’s creation as well or Melandru directly oversees it: either way, she would have interest in preserving it against Mordremoth which is costantly trying to corrupt it.
Maybe Melandru’s creation of the Dream is vital to her plan of preserving the Sylvari against Nightmare: through a shared consciousness she allows the Pale Tree to better fare against Nightmare.

TL;DR: Mordremoth creates the seeds for future Sylvari to act as his army during his next awakening. Unfortunately, Ronan comes, kills the seeds’s guardians and plants one of the seeds. Melandru intervenes by freeing the Pale Tree of Mord’s influence, foreseeing and knowing that Mordremoth would directly oppose her (or at least, corrupt her domain (nature) during her absence…or corrupt the Dream, since it could make sense that it is Melandru’s creation or at least that she is connected to it). Meanwhile, the seeds in the cave meet other fates: we know for sure that at least another one makes it out of the cave and goes to create another whole tree, that later nurtures Malyck. This one, however, was not foreseen nor did Melandru know about it: hence the lack of the shared consciousness known as the Dream.

• While writing of this theory, I came to realize of a fallacious point in it: if Melandru didn’t watch over Malick’s tree, hence the lack of the Dream, but how comes it is free of Mordremoth’s influence?
  Simply put: none of the seeds were actually corrupted. It probably was a process that would have been developed by its guardians or by Mordremoth itself only later. And that would explain why both the trees (Pale and Malyck’s) aren’t corrupted, and why one has the Dream, while the other hasn’t.

I think what Konig is trying to state is that Malyck doesn’t have a dream to prevent his tree from staying “corrupted” and yet his personality aligns more with the Dream sylvari than the Nightmare Court. This seems to point more towards the trees NOT being minions/champions of a dragon.