Guild Wars 2

What happens when a Nightmare or Soundless Sylvari dies?

As we know Sylvari are incorruptible by any of the dragons so far. For when a Sylvari dies their knowledge goes back to the pale tree. This has been explained further in the book Ghost of Ascalon.

However is death different for a Nightmare or Soundless Sylvari? I ask this cause how dangerous is Scarlet’s death if her knowledge goes back to the pale tree? We know that the Pale Tree tried to warn Scarlet from looking into the eternal alchemy. This allowed the newest Dragon Mordermoth to corrupt Scarlet and lead to the invasion of Lions Arch.

So this brings up two things. One is that Mordermoth might possibly be the only dragon that can corrupt Sylvari. Two is the picture of a pale tree entertwined with vines pictured in Scarlet’s Hidden Base. At first I thought that with Scarlet’s death it may be harmful to the pale tree that her knowledge might go back to other sylvari waiting to be born. However so far this has not been the case.

There may be other pale trees. There has been a lot of suggestions that Modermoth is currently resting either near or possibly underneath a second pale tree. Dose Modermoth have anything to do with the Nightmare Court? When a Nightmare or Soundless Sylvari dies dose there knowledge go some where else or dose it all go back to the pale tree?

All these questions could be a very good plot point later on. If Modermoth’s minions are the Nightmare Court then it would prove that Modermoth is a more intelligent dragon. Where most of the other dragon’s minions are just beast the nightmare court can not only think for themselves but also do the dragon’s biddings. Just think of how effective Scarlet was with her attack on Lion’s Arch all while under the direction of a elder dragon. The pale tree could be at risk if the same gateway that led Modermoth to Scarlet is now open to other sylvari that are still in the dream.

Let me know what you think of all this. Just a theory that might be brought up later.

The nightmare Court memories are fed to the tree, I believe the Soundless memories are also.

From the wiki:
_as the tree gathers emotions and memories, she draws from the Nightmare Court as well as their kinder brethren, and her pool of memories swells with both dark and light thoughts. _

My personal opinion is that the nightmare has nothing to do with Mordy, and that the dream and the nightmare are simply two sides of the same coin. I say this because the Nightmare Court still seems intent on fighting dragons.

I think the only reason that Mordy was able to get to Scarlet was because she was separated from her defenses in the isolation chamber. I believe the dream is a localized phenomenon that is protecting the minions of the grove from dragon corruption. While in the chamber Scarlet was separated from the dream and became vulnerable to Mordy.

So then what will Mordy’s minions be if not the Nightmare Court or Sylvari in general? Some kind of plant corruption? Since Mordy has an earth theme I think he has a high probability to be able to corrupt Sylvari into his minons.

There is no evidence that proves sylvarii that are not part of the dream can’t be corrupted.

@OP: what happens when Dreamer sylvari die? Answer: we don’t know.

Their knowledge is continuously going back to the tree, it isn’t just an instant “on death only” case. In fact, unless the death is a powerful experience then it won’t go back to the Dream – such as Riannoc’s death not going to the Dream of Dreams, leaving the Pale Tree unknowing of how Riannoc died.

New Dialogue for Sylvari characters that answer this exact questions.

For soundless the pale tree says they try to do a form of meditation to cut them off from her.
“Cuts them off from the dream, the world, each other, and me. Some cannot bear the burden of shared pain.

Nightmare court. “Once beloved to me, as are you, these poor misguided have through their own free will have taken a darker path.” They do harm to the dream.

So in short the Nightmare and Soundless are connected but the Soundless are looking for a way to sever the connection. Where as the Nightmare desire to be connected so they can do harm to the Dream.

Almoryk Kane.6085:

So then what will Mordy’s minions be if not the Nightmare Court or Sylvari in general? Some kind of plant corruption? Since Mordy has an earth theme I think he has a high probability to be able to corrupt Sylvari into his minons.

Maybe Mordy can’t corrupt Sylvari, but maybe he can corrupt a Pale Tree and use it to create an assortment of plant monsters.

Could it be the case that instead of knowledge going to the Pale tree when a Sylvari dies, we have knowledge not being lost? The memories of the deceased Sylvari could still part of the Dream/Nightmare and might (or might not) be revealed at a later time.

Almoryk Kane.6085:

So in short the Nightmare and Soundless are connected but the Soundless are looking for a way to sever the connection. Where as the Nightmare desire to be connected so they can do harm to the Dream.

The Nightmare are already connected, it’s just that there are only so many ways for one Sylvari to experience evil that eventually they can’t give any more to the Nightmare.

There is only so many times they can torture Sylvari before their personal experiences won’t affect the Dream, so they’ll have to rely on their victims’ pain and fear to keep the Nightmare growing.

The Soundless are a bit different. Think of their mind and their connection to the Dream as a raging river. One that, for them, is far too powerful for them to take without suffering for it. So they learn how to build a mental dam to block out the Dream and continue on with their lives in peace.

Granted, a Soundless’ mental dam is not something they can learn to erect once and then they never have to do it again; they have to spend some time out of every day meditating to keep the barriers from breaking.

I was just really concerned that killing Scarlet might be a bad thing considering the drawing of a Pale Tree wrapped up in thorns. And I though that since Scarlet is more towards soundless I didn’t know if her knowledge might affect the pale tree or other sylvaries in the dream. I think it would of made a good plot point though I think it could still be used.

I still think that Mordy has a high chance of being able to corrupt Sylvari. There are still some arguments out there that Sylvari can still be influenced without actually being a minion or a Lieutenant of a elder dragon. Either way Scarlet did what she did cause of an elder dragon. Call I corruption, make her a lieutenant or champion, or just trickery. It still could be dangerous for Sylvari since this new dragon dose have an earth based theme.

I can neither confirm nor deny that Scarlet was a Soundless Sylvari. I can, however, tell you that I have come across zero evidence supporting that hypothesis.

Soundless do not contribute to the Dream in any way, shape, or form, except second-hand if the memories of a Dreamer or Courtier involve them.

And I don’t think Anet would retcon their own recent lore by allowing Sylvari to be corrupted or influenced by Elder Dragons or their associated minions. We already know Zhaitan can’t turn them into Risen Sylvari; they just straight die rather than change into zombies.

A thought occurred to me, maybe Mordy won’t be able to corrupt the Pale Tree at all, what if the thorns represent him and his minions attacking and attempting to destroy the Pale Tree since he sees it as a threat? And then also there’s the theories floating around that “The Entity” isn’t even Mordy, those need to be taken into perspective as well when thinking about this.

Also, the Nightmare Court could go the way of the Svanir and support Mordremoth without truly being corrupted by it, I’m not quite familiar with them enough to judge whether that would conflict with their philosophy though.

ChurchOfRuin.3891:

Also, the Nightmare Court could go the way of the Svanir and support Mordremoth without truly being corrupted by it, I’m not quite familiar with them enough to judge whether that would conflict with their philosophy though.

Nightmare Court believe that the Ventari’s Tablet is corrupting the Pale Tree and the Sylvari. With the underlying philosophy of the Sylvari being of centaur origin, they see it as being untrue, non-sylvari. They believe that through the nightmare they can free all Sylvari.
So it’s possibly that they might think of Mordy as being a means to further they’re own goals, if Mordy is responsible for the nightmare then they’ll be all over that.

There is an argument that the Nightmare Court have broken free from the dogma of the Ventari tablet just by being in the Nightmare Court. Following the Jungle Dragon would just be replacing the dogma of a ancient script with the tyranny of an Elder Dragon.

Initially, I would have said that Scarlet had cut herself off from the dream, and the memories wouldn’t return, but I’m not so sure.
Even after Scarlet cut her ties to the Mother, the Mother was still aware of Scarlet’s emotions and her suffering. If you talk to the Mother Tree now, she has a dialogue that thanks you for killing Scarlet, because you basically freed Scarlet from being in pain as she tried to resist dragon corruption.
It sounds to me like the Pale Tree was still in Scarlet’s mind, aware of what was happening, even if they could no longer communicate due to Mordy and Scarlet’s own unwillingness. And if that’s the case, it’s possible Scarlet’s memories could have still flowed into the Dream. We really don’t know enough about how the Dream or the Mother work to determine it for sure.

Weindrasi.3805:

We really don’t know enough about how the Dream or the Mother work to determine it for sure.

Which does leave a lot of questions. Is Scarlet now an entity in the dream, or is it only a lose collection of memories, experience and knowledge? Is it possible that we might see a couple of Scarlet successors pop-up in the ranks of the Sylvari? To what extent can an individual influence an entire generation of Sylvari? Is it only a single generation or all generations to come?

Keyce.8137:

I can neither confirm nor deny that Scarlet was a Soundless Sylvari. I can, however, tell you that I have come across zero evidence supporting that hypothesis.

Soundless do not contribute to the Dream in any way, shape, or form, except second-hand if the memories of a Dreamer or Courtier involve them.

And I don’t think Anet would retcon their own recent lore by allowing Sylvari to be corrupted or influenced by Elder Dragons or their associated minions. We already know Zhaitan can’t turn them into Risen Sylvari; they just straight die rather than change into zombies.

It was confirmed by Scott McGough in this interview that Scarlet was cut off from the Dream of Dreams thus making her “like” a Soundless. She isn’t one – because the cut off is not of her choice.

Stooperdale.3560:

There is an argument that the Nightmare Court have broken free from the dogma of the Ventari tablet just by being in the Nightmare Court. Following the Jungle Dragon would just be replacing the dogma of a ancient script with the tyranny of an Elder Dragon.

Erm… not quite… Well, for starters there’s not much to “break free” from, since it’s just a philosophy – dragon corruption, however, is more akin to enslavement than a mere philosophy (exception: Jormag corrupts, primarily, those who willingly turn to him). And one can argue that the Nightmare Court are in fact more entrenched by the Ventari Tablet because they go out of their way to do the complete opposite of the tablet.

Weindrasi.3805:

Initially, I would have said that Scarlet had cut herself off from the dream, and the memories wouldn’t return, but I’m not so sure.
Even after Scarlet cut her ties to the Mother, the Mother was still aware of Scarlet’s emotions and her suffering. If you talk to the Mother Tree now, she has a dialogue that thanks you for killing Scarlet, because you basically freed Scarlet from being in pain as she tried to resist dragon corruption.
It sounds to me like the Pale Tree was still in Scarlet’s mind, aware of what was happening, even if they could no longer communicate due to Mordy and Scarlet’s own unwillingness. And if that’s the case, it’s possible Scarlet’s memories could have still flowed into the Dream. We really don’t know enough about how the Dream or the Mother work to determine it for sure.

Firstly, the Pale Tree is never in a sylvari’s mind. The Dream of Dreams is not a hive mind – this is a constant and common misconception that was clarified in the novel Ghosts of Ascalon.

However, I don’t think Scarlet was tied to the Dream still – aside from Scott’s statement in the above linked interview, the Pale Tree could easily just have been stating in a way of assumption and empathetic understanding – like how you say “I know how you feel” to someone when you’re trying to comfort them, you don’t really know how they feel, but you say it anyways.

Well we don’t rly know what happens during and after death.