Guild Wars 2

I’ve noticed in particular that the Dredge and Grawl are very well-spoken and noble-seeming, in some ways, that seems odd and in contrast to how other races perceive them.

The Grawl for instance, when dying, utter things like “My Spirit Endures” or other noble sentiments that seem to indicate a respect/relationship with nature deeper than the dismissive contempt Norn/etc have for them suggests.

The Dredge also seem to have a very advanced civilization (not just mindlessly digging or piggybacking off of salvaged Dwarven tech), referencing a Collective and suggesting they have a very consensus-based or democratic way of doing things, maybe?

Any thoughts?

Well the grawl are a very spiritual race so I wouldn’t be surprised if they believe in some sort of afterlife. Dredge have their own government and some are starting to rebel because they believe they’ve ended up trading one group of slavers (Stone Summit) for new masters (current dredge leadership). They’re held in contempt by the norn because they’re mostly hostile and attack outsiders/non-dredge on sight. They’re also not as “in tune” with the world around them as the norn which can cause friction at times. This tendency also seems to have an effect on dredge-kodan interaction because the cause imbalance in the world.

Dhraiden.9215:

The Dredge also seem to have a very advanced civilization (not just mindlessly digging or piggybacking off of salvaged Dwarven tech), referencing a Collective and suggesting they have a very consensus-based or democratic way of doing things, maybe?

Any thoughts?

Umm, maybe my sarcasm meter is broken, but…did you seriously miss all the references to Soviet Russia with the dredge? Real life naked mole rats are eusocial, so it kind of makes sense. At least as much sense as a sapient race of communist moles can make.

Growl voice acting doesn’t match their theme of primitiveness at all, it’s very clean and clear sounding and doesn’t strike people as “These are ape men”.

This might be intentional though, as Growls primitiveness might not apply to every aspect of their being. Growl might lack greatly in many forms of intelligence but they might have a very high linguistic intelligence. This could explain how they retain a non-broken dialect of New Krytan (and picked it up) and why they use poetic phrases that don’t reflect their inability to comprehend advance concepts such as civilization.

The dredge are a different story.

You need to remember that historically, Dredge were once very primitive and that stereotype might have clinged to them despite advancing just as quickly in industry as the Charr.

The Dredge are an oddball due to A-nets failure to flush out and explain some the relationships between the ruling races and the Dredge, especially the dredge as a villain. It was suggested in a thread on the subject by an A-net dev that the reason the dredge aren’t taken seriously outside of the Durmand Priory is due to the Norn viewpoints of various races in their current residence at shiverpeak. The Norn a very hardy and life loving race that have a penchant for dominating races they see as weaker. While the Dredge have powerful tech, and can be assumed to be physically strong (Incredibly fast diggers even without iron digging armor), they are suggested to not be much of a threat or “challenging opponent” to the Norn. Or the Norn might be intimidated by the Dredges effort to take control of all of shiverpeak and therefore choose to insult them for their once primitive nature.

The Dredge are not really culturally evil like the Krait, their main desire to desecrate the remains of those that enslaved them and try to establish power in shiver-peaks, likely to show the world that they are the true inheritors of Dwarven civilization and to garnish respect from the currently ruling races, which I feel they deserve. Why no one has decided to attempt a peace treaty with the Dredge is beyond me, but again it might be a pride issue with the Norn among a leadership issue with the dredge. Some of the reason the dredge have been so inconsiderate of the current elder dragon situations and the boundaries of the territories claimed by other races is likely due to the fact that the leaders of the moletariat are essentially insane due to Inquest influence.

Inquest: The Real Reason Other Races Can’t Have Nice Things

Bard.7215:

Growl voice acting doesn’t match their theme of primitiveness at all, it’s very clean and clear sounding and doesn’t strike people as “These are ape men”.

This might be intentional though, as Growls primitiveness might not apply to every aspect of their being. Growl might lack greatly in many forms of intelligence but they might have a very high linguistic intelligence. This could explain how they retain a non-broken dialect of New Krytan (and picked it up) and why they use poetic phrases that don’t reflect their inability to comprehend advance concepts such as civilization.

The dredge are a different story.

You need to remember that historically, Dredge were once very primitive and that stereotype might have clinged to them despite advancing just as quickly in industry as the Charr.

The Dredge are an oddball due to A-nets failure to flush out and explain some the relationships between the ruling races and the Dredge, especially the dredge as a villain. It was suggested in a thread on the subject by an A-net dev that the reason the dredge aren’t taken seriously outside of the Durmand Priory is due to the Norn viewpoints of various races in their current residence at shiverpeak. The Norn a very hardy and life loving race that have a penchant for dominating races they see as weaker. While the Dredge have powerful tech, and can be assumed to be physically strong (Incredibly fast diggers even without iron digging armor), they are suggested to not be much of a threat or “challenging opponent” to the Norn. Or the Norn might be intimidated by the Dredges effort to take control of all of shiverpeak and therefore choose to insult them for their once primitive nature.

The Dredge are not really culturally evil like the Krait, their main desire to desecrate the remains of those that enslaved them and try to establish power in shiver-peaks, likely to show the world that they are the true inheritors of Dwarven civilization and to garnish respect from the currently ruling races, which I feel they deserve. Why no one has decided to attempt a peace treaty with the Dredge is beyond me, but again it might be a pride issue with the Norn among a leadership issue with the dredge. Some of the reason the dredge have been so inconsiderate of the current elder dragon situations and the boundaries of the territories claimed by other races is likely due to the fact that the leaders of the moletariat are essentially insane due to Inquest influence.

I never thought if it that way but it would make sense that they’re strong in the linguistic department. They’re relatively primitive compared to other races because they can’t stop fighting over which religion is the “right” one long enough to work together outside small tribal groups. Maybe the ones who have settled in Lion’s Arch can learn a thing or two from the city’s other inhabitants?

Bard.7215:

The Dredge are an oddball due to A-nets failure to flush out and explain some the relationships between the ruling races and the Dredge, especially the dredge as a villain … The Dredge are not really culturally evil like the Krait, their main desire to desecrate the remains of those that enslaved them and try to establish power in shiver-peaks, likely to show the world that they are the true inheritors of Dwarven civilization and to garnish respect from the currently ruling races, which I feel they deserve.

The Dredge have long been the buttmonkies (I can’t wait to see how that gets censored) of the Guild Wars universe. They’re an underground race who were enslaved and used for hard labour by the dwarves, both Deldrimor (good guys) and Stone Summit (bad guys). Some escaped to Cantha and you can do a quest involving one in GW1 who asks you to help him get the local humans to listen to his requests for a place to live in peace. Basically, they are denied.

So they have been despised, enslaved or hunted pretty much everywhere they have gone. The way that GW2 races look down on them is probably less a logical thing, and more a continuation of their reputation. The Soviet-like Dredge state is a result of them deciding that a) they want to be free, and will have to protect that freedom, and b) they can’t trust any other races, and so must determine their own way of living and be hostile to all outsiders. You can see how communism would appeal to a people whose history is full of slavery to others.

The Dredge aren’t really primitive, they just have the bad luck of trying to establish their own territory where someone bigger has already claimed the territory. They want to move into the old dwarven lands, but the norn were driven south by Jormag and are settling in that same area. Boom, conflict.

All of your answers provided much food for thought: the responses were very well thought out and really helped expand the back-story & lore for me. Thank you!

@Curuniel.4830 you not talking about the quest (Envoy of the Dredge) because if that the case the you should know that if was the Dredge who attacked the Kurzicks patrols.
Here is the quest initial dialogue

Moleneaux
“You won’t attack me, will you? I do not mean you any harm, I just need someone to help. My people fight a great underground war against the Stone Summit Dwarves in the Shiverpeaks, far to the…north, I think. But some of my clan decided to escape the only way we knew how, by digging a tunnel to the other side of the world! And now here we are, safe from the dwarves, it seems, but these forests are strange to us. There are creatures that do not want to enslave us, no, but they want us dead. Humans called Kurzicks…I think…try to kill us for encroaching on their territory. please help us, I beg you. Help me reach this Count zu Heltzer I have heard the humans mention. I think he is one of their leaders. If he knew of our plight, surely his people would not hunt us like animals.”
Count zu Heltzer
“What? These monstrous intruders want peace, after striking out patrols? Perhaps the creatures have convinced you they acted in self-defense, but I must rely on words of our trusted field officers, and they themselves claim self-defense. Whatever your “friend” says, his people have already made an enemy of the Kurzicks. That is the answer you may deliver. If these creatures only want to survive, they can do it wherever they came from."
Moleneaux
“So these Kurzicks refuse to hear reason, do they? I had hoped that we could avoid further conflict, but I am only one Dredge. Though our appeals for peace were met with scorn, I will still try to convince my people to stop attacking the Kurzicks. Perhaps in time the humans will see we are not a threat…or perhaps we are doomed. There are far more of them, to be sure. We are not monsters, and we repay your kindness with this. Thank you.”

The reason why I remember this because I played it with one of my alts about five days ago. There is two fellow up quest after that.

I don’t believe Count Zu Heltzer was giving an accurate account of how the dredge reacted. Of course he is going to blame the Dredge for the attacks on the patrols, why would he blame his own people? I can understand why the patrols would attack an unfamiliar creature in their territory, but I doubt that the Dredge were looking for a fight after digging to the other side of the world in order to flee from previous oppresses.

Acaelus Thorne.3862:

“There are creatures that do not want to enslave us, no, but they want us dead. Humans called Kurzicks…I think…try to kill us for encroaching on their territory.”
…
“What? These monstrous intruders want peace, after striking out patrols? Perhaps the creatures have convinced you they acted in self-defense, but I must rely on words of our trusted field officers, and they themselves claim self-defense.

The quest dialogue pretty clearly shows that the two stories contradict each other, and we have no way of knowing which is right. The fact of the matter is that although Moleneaux’s people weren’t helping themselves (with some groups acting aggressively even as he tried to stop them), Count zu Heltzer straight out refuses to treat with them, and there ends the peace effort, more or less.

I think it’s more worth noting how easily conflicts like this can start over a little misunderstanding and fear of the unknown, which the quest chain illustrates quite nicely.

It’s probably a mix. Some of the dredge were paranoid and attacked unfamiliar creatures that looked a bit like tall, thin dwarves on sight. Some of the Kurzicks were paranoid and attacked the unfamiliar mole-creatures on sight. And then the whole thing escalated.

Regarding the Priory, I think the issue they have with the dredge is not that they’ve got their information about the dredge from the norn (after all, they have Ogden, who probably has much more knowledge about the dredge and where they’re coming from than any non-dredge living). I am curious as to whether the Deldrimor dwarves were actually involved in enslaving the dredge – Ogden accepted collective responsibility, but he may have been thinking of the dwarves as a race rather than his own faction.

Either way, the dredge-Priory rivalry is probably largely based on the Priory seeking to collect relics and knowledge of the dwarves while the dredge are trying to remove every trace that the dwarves ever existed.

draxynnic.3719:

Either way, the dredge-Priory rivalry is probably largely based on the Priory seeking to collect relics and knowledge of the dwarves while the dredge are trying to remove every trace that the dwarves ever existed.

I’m inclined to agree. In their revolution and efforts for self-determination, they are basically book-burning (or the equivalent thereof). Destroying ancient dwarven relics, when they are some of the oldest civilization we know of AND knew more about the Elder Dragons than most people we could possible have access to, is going to frustrate the Priory to no end.

i know for certain that my priori sylvari would just shoot first and ask questions later if he saw dredge near a suspected dwarven relic/ruin …the danger of lost knowledge is just too great

overall though? always tried avoiding to harm the dredge workers if it can be helped (though i find the mechanics of them grabbing the weapon quite ingenious)

Not to be offensive, but to have the Dredge somehow patterned after the Soviets was in bad taste and a racial slur to boot. No matter how you slice it. In GW1 EoN campaign, they were distinctive as their own race and didn’t seem patterned after any specific race.
This however, went a bit too far imho. They should have been kept distinctive.

Lechtrixx.1053:

Not to be offensive, but to have the Dredge somehow patterned after the Soviets […] went a bit too far imho. They should have been kept distinctive.

I also feel this way. The reference to the Soviets was there, from the day they were introduced to us in the Furnace of Sorrow update. But back then, it was a lot more subtle and therefore enjoyable. Now it’s pretty bland and boring.

Also, I liked the dredge a lot more in the original game. Starting from their more bulky appearance, weaponry and most importantly: sound. The new sounds are just too high pitched and annoying.

Someone talked about the grawl’s voice acting, who is “strange” for them. I am totally agree with that. I’m french, and the voice actor for the grawl is the same who actually do the voice acting for Gabriel Angelos, a Space marines from dawn of war.

I think you can imagine my shock the first time i heard a grawl

Also, let’s not forget that the grawl and the dredge are most antagonized by the Norn, who are truly a bunch of jerks (and oft written with Norn-as-jerks antagonism in events). Even the more spiritual, nice Norn are likely to be irked by the Dredge, who destroy the environment around the Norn settlements.

And since the Norn have taken such a high place among the races of Tyria, their opinion of the other races are going to travel further and carry more weight than other opinions.

Uhm humanity knew about Grawl and Dredge before they knew about Norn. So they really build their opinion themself.
Charr probably knew Grawl before Norn too, it can’t be said for certain, but is highley likely. And since Charr and humans are calling the Grawl related to the other, it shows that both races aren’t too fond of them (as being related to Grawl would be degrading).
Asura probably knew Dredge before the other races, since the Dredge were slaves to the dwarves (not entirely sure if they were slaves to Stone Summit only or to all dwarves, Ogden makes it sound like the latter) and Asura and dwarves had contact for a while before the Asura went to the surface.
So the only race that really could have been influenced by the Norn in the way they look at Grawl and Dredge are the Sylvari, but even this I find unlikely, since the Sylvari are more like the “go and experience it yourself” kind of people. They wouldn’t just believe what other people tell them, they would want to see for themself if that is true.

Lechtrixx.1053:

Not to be offensive, but to have the Dredge somehow patterned after the Soviets was in bad taste and a racial slur to boot. No matter how you slice it. In GW1 EoN campaign, they were distinctive as their own race and didn’t seem patterned after any specific race.
This however, went a bit too far imho. They should have been kept distinctive.

I think ‘racial slur’ is taking it a bit too far, although I agree that the Dredge Collective stuff is more heavy-handed than most other referencey stuff ArenaNet indulges in. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to parallel the Dredge to the Soviets though, simply because I think they have somewhat similar (if fantasy exaggerated) reasons for liking and adopting a communist rhetoric. All the Dredge speeches may be over-the-top, but they do sound like a people determined to rid themselves of oppression and prove that on their own, they can build a more fair and equitable society, without the oppression that other people have claimed is necessary one way or another.

The noble sentiment is there, even if it is also played for comedy a lot of the time.

Bear in mind back in the GW1 days (both in-game and in real life) people said much the same about the charr. They were portrayed as monsterous beasts whose motives were pretty much limited to “crush, kill, destroy” and whose society was limited to some of the stronger/more powerful individuals dominating the others. Even though there were plenty of indications that there was far more to it, right from the start.

But it made sense because we were seeing them from the human side and all the humans at the time got to see of charr society was their warbands attacking Ascalon.

The same is largely true of the grawl and dredge. Most of the playable races enounters with either is combative for one reason or another, so their perception of these races is going to be that they’re violent monsters. The difference here is that our characters have the oppertunity to go further into their territories, their homes, and see the other side of it.

Lechtrixx.1053:

Not to be offensive, but to have the Dredge somehow patterned after the Soviets was in bad taste and a racial slur to boot. No matter how you slice it. In GW1 EoN campaign, they were distinctive as their own race and didn’t seem patterned after any specific race.
This however, went a bit too far imho. They should have been kept distinctive.

The soviet union was not a race and the Dredge only resemble Slavic culture in naming.

the group of people you’re thinking of are known as Slavs(East Slavs to be precise) and most would not like to be called “Soviets”.