Guild Wars 2

Good day everyone, for the longest time now, I have held some unanswered inquires to myself regarding the aspect of lore that dealt with nobility. Not only Krytan, but of all the former and potentially present kingdoms.

The role play community has welcomed the presented concept of human nobility rather well, and through Guild Wars 2 Wiki research, in-game NPC information, and my best understanding of the lore, I have developed this thread which has acted as a non-forced guide for players whom wished to endeavour into playing a character of higher social class.

However, a vast majority of information eludes me and the players who have also researched into the topic. The issue appears to be that the NPCs nor the development team provide explicit information, or perhaps I have merely failed to find it. I recently stumbled upon this podcast, where Angel McCoy and Scott McGough speak about nobility quite a lot near the conclusion, however, I have failed to find a transcript of sort.

Thus, I wish to present a set of inquiries here with the hopes that players and perhaps even the ArenaNet team could provide some answers on this occasionally debated topic of the Guild Wars 2 universe. Please feel free to quote an inquiry or multiple ones if you are answering. In fact, I recommend it as it will allow me to structure information with more ease. With that said, here are the questions:

QUESTION 1: The System & Structure
The inspiration behind the noble hierarchy of Kryta and the kingdoms seen in Guild Wars appears to be the well known European feudal system, is this true? If so, do all human kingdoms have the same structure and how has it changed through the times as we entered Tyria’s modern age?

QUESTION 2: The Titles
There is an evident hierarchy displayed by the nobility in Kryta with titles such as Baron/Baroness and Countess. Are there more titles in Tyria that we have simply not seen from the given pool of NPCs such as the Marquis/Marchioness and the Viscount/Viscountess? There also appears to be no Dukes since the days of Guild Wars. Have these titles ever existed and if so, have some fallen out of use?

QUESTION 3: Styles of Address
One is not of the high class without the manners to accompany the titles. The real world styles of address for nobility are rather complex, and I have noticed a simpler approach was taken in the Guild Wars universe. While a majority of the nobility in the real world would be addressed as Lord/Lady despite the actual title, Tyria seems to emphasize on the given title in everyday speech. Is all nobility addressed as [Given Title] [First Name], or are there other intricacies at play? Further evidence also suggest that a Lord/Lady is a title in its own right, not a style of address. Is this true?

QUESTION 4: Estates & Residencies
Many players recall Duke Barradin’s estate in Ascalon, and in the podcast, Scott McGough mentioned that a Baron, for example, would have owned proper amounts of land and utilized taxes. We also know that Minister Caudecus has his estate in the Shire of Beetletun. Does any nobility reside outside of cities and villages or have the days of stately homes ceased to exist, prompting all of the higher class to remain within the confines of urban life? If so, why?

[Continued]

[Continued]

QUESTION 5: The Ministry
Politics play a large role in the direction humanity takes. The NPC Minister Rachel speaks of the Ministry as a place for prominent figures of their respective communities to take seat and speak for the people of said communities, even emphasizing that not all Ministers are of the high class. However, in the podcast, it was mentioned that to be eligible for a seat in the Ministry, one must be of nobility. Is this true?

QUESTION 6: Behaviour & Reputation
How important is proper behaviour and reputation in Tyrian nobility? Is there a superiority complex present in certain nobles where speaking and interacting with those of lower social standing is not advised? Are nobles expected to strictly abide by social distinctions and remain within their given echelon?

QUESTION 7: The Origins
If there are titles and social structures, there are also tales of how families got to where they are. Is the monarch of a kingdom the only source capable of bestowing titles? Would political, economical, and military ambition raise someone into a state of nobility as well?

QUESTION 8: Primogeniture
Our history tells a tale of a male dominated system where inheritance was bequeathed unto the first born sons, and the general center of focus was around male inheritance. Are matriarchal families a possibility in Tyria and does a woman have the ability to be a noble in her own right as potentially assumed with Countess Anise?

Thank you in advance to everyone who provides answers and assistance on this topic. I pray we may come to some enlightening conclusions together.

Question 3:
Yes Lord and Lady appear to be titles in their own right, and considering the constant use of [title] followed by [first name], I would say that this is always the system of address. e.g. Prince Rurik, Lady Althea, Queen Jennah, Countess Anise etc.
With Lord and Lady however, I -think- that it is simply the given title of any individual born to a high ranking/titled noble who does not possess another title themselves.

Question 4:
The lands of Kryta are limited and areas such as Queensdale tend to be used as farming land, so it makes sense for most of the Krytan residents to reside within Divinity’s Reach itself. The threat of Bandit’s and Centaurs also make life within the safety of DR’s walls much more appealing. Beetletun of course is an exception and I imagine there are nobles who live there.

Question 5:
I’m not absolutely certain here but it is possible that, given the dev statement, one must be of a noble bloodline in order to sit on the council. Of course descending from a noble bloodline does not itself secure high social status or wealth, so it is possible that this is what Rachel is getting at. (It’s also possible that the dev’s weren’t aware of Rachel’s dialogue in game).

Question 6:
I would imagine it to be somewhat like this. From the Human noble storyline we do observe that nobility seem to circulate within their own sphere, rather than with those of other positions within the social hierarchy. I don’t imagine that they are strictly required not to associate with commoners, but rather that their upbringing and taste for the finer things in life causes them to remain around those in a similar position as themselves.

Question 7:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/King_Doric This page might interest you in regards to this. Initially humanity fell under one rule, rather than the three separate kingdoms of Ascalon, Kryta and Orr that emerged later in humanity’s timeline. He, with the help of the gods, brought an end to wars between humanity and was subsequently crowned king (thus the royal bloodline begins). Both Ascalon and Kryta’s royal bloodlines descend from Doric.
(Ties in to Question 2:)
If we are looking at titles, such as Duke, then we can use Duke Barradin as an example – he was brother to the King of Ascalon who reigned before Adelbern. His daughter was Lady Althea. Hopefully that gives you some idea of how titles are passed down through non-reigning nobles and their descendants.

Question 8:
There are a couple of instances that would suggest that whilst the Human kingdoms may operate under systems of primogeniture it is not necessarily always strict. Adelbern for example, whilst a descendant of Doric, was not next in line for the throne when he ascended to King of Ascalon. He was crowned king by the people of Ascalon because of the part he played in the Guild Wars. The fact that there were royalists who attempted to dethrone him suggests that typically the throne (and presumably this extends to other positions and titles) would belong to the first born son.
When it comes to gender I’m not entirely sure. Queen Salma inherited the Krytan throne despite being both female and despite her mother not being of noble blood. She was of however the only living child of her father and thus she was brought into power during the Krytan civil war.

Bringing us back to Question 1:
Kryta during the period of GW1 provides us with an example in which the nation was not ruled by a royal blood line but instead by the Judges of the White Mantle under a system known as a Krytocracy (which is possible/probably why Kryta was called Kryta).

Hopefully that helps a little? Sorry if I’ve made any errors, anyone who knows better please feel free to correct me.

2. While I can’t speak with any authority on the issue, I do know that Wade Sammuelsson, Commander of the Ebon Vanguard, is also the Duke of Ebonhawke. It may be a hereditary title from the days of Ascalon, although it’s just as possible that Wade is given largesse from Queen Jennah to tax the citizens of Ebonhawke as he sees fit, forwarding a portion of it to the Krytan coffers.

4. I think it’s safe to say that each of the nobles in Divinity’s Reach owns a parcel of land (or perhaps sizeable business interests) within Kryta. For instance, Lord Arrin is the ruler of Claypool and, presumably, the surrounding lands, but he more than likely defers the day-to-day management of the town to Mayor Johlin. Similar arrangements likely exist for other towns and villages in Kryta.

6. Given the mixed reactions the Noble Human PC receives from other nobles as part of their Personal Story, I’m certain that proper behaviour and etiquette is regarded quite highly among the noble courts. The PC is an aberration to their social order, although he/she does have their supporters and admirers.

8. Considering that Queen Jennah is sole ruler of Kryta, without any hints of a male regent or consort (and her ancestor, Queen Salma, took the throne after rising up against the White Mantle), I think it’s safe to say that the Krytan nobility is not organised strictly along patriarchal lines. (Or if it did historically, it doesn’t anymore.)

^—- Regarding that last little bit. I’d be inclined to say that it was once a patriarchal rule (I think every named ruler in GW1 was a man, and I would be remarkably surprised if every single king had a son as their first child), but with Queen Salma it was changed and it is now either matrilineal or it just goes to the first born child.

Actually, from Sea of Sorrows it seems that there isn’t any fast rule for who inherits, but that the ruler can name any of their kids that they want heir.

Thanks Aaron, still haven’t finished the book so I wouldn’t have known that. I would still think that would be a recent trend though, given that around the time of prophecies there was a line of succession, which would get very complicated if the throne didn’t go to the firstborn.

Thank you for responding everyone, I have already gathered some new information that I have discovered through looking into what has been said so far.

The hardest inquiry to answer appears to be question 2. Based on the given NPCs, the only titles of nobility are Duke/Duchess, Count/Countess, Baron/Baroness, and Lord/Lady. Any titles that we know exist in between these fail to appear anywhere. The Nightmare Court has Grand Duchess, so it causes me to ponder if the sylvari took inspiration from human hierarchy, however, I have never seen a human Grand Duke/Grand Duchess in either games.

In regards to Lord/Lady, I will suppose that the title is not only given to the children of a higher ranked noble, but a Lord can also have power in his own right as it appears to be in the case of Lord Arrin Claypool who owns Claypool and its surrounding lands.

Now, royal inheritance has been discussed, but what of nobility? Is it stricter and are matriarchal families lore abiding?

I believe you would have to view the different human nations seperately in their rules of succession.

ORR: I don’t recall much about Orr, but I do remember, of course, the Grand Viser. He was the most powerful Orrian magic user of his time, I believe. The King of Orr named him his highest councilor. I do not believe either of the other two utilize the same kind of position.

In Sea of Sorrow, we find the head of the Shining Blade to hold such a position in Kryta, as Countess Anise holds that possition in the current game time. It should be noted also, a rather important distinction, that the Shining Blade does not take a pledge to protect a King or Queen, but rather to protect the Salmaic Dynasty. They are only interesting in making sure that the King or Queen that sits the throne is of Salmaic Line. they don’t care much which it is, and there are hints that even if the King or Queen declares a successor, if another of the Salmaic line would make a safer, strong and potentially more stable successor, they would support that one instead.

When looking at Kryta’s history, we have 3 lines at least that we know of. The Doric Line, the Salmaic Line and the Thorn Line, the last of which is obviously the Mad King.

Ascelon was definately different than Krytan. They were considered more a “Frontier” kind of Human Kingdom, having expanded into the lands formerly held by the Charr. As such, it was more a popular will and strength of arms and abilities at war that determined the next King. Duke Barradine should have become King, but the issue of the Guild Wars was always a major part of the royal succession. Alberdeen was able to take the crown because he was strong, smart and, in simple truth, ambitious. Barradine was not truly interested in the possition, or so it seems to me, which is why he did not object or try to take back the throne.

In the above conversation about the Duke of Ebonhawke, it is also important to remember that Ebonhawke, technically, is not a Krytan outpost, but rather the last outpost of Ascelon. Ascelon has become a part of Kryta over the past 250 years, but no doubt the freedom to tax their subjects and forward part to Kryta is a nod to a degree of independance, even though it is primarily now considered part of Kryta since Ascelon no longer exists. Of course, in Sea of Sorrows, there is a ploy put into place by a supposed descendant of the royal Ascelonian line toward the re establishment of Ascelonian self rule.

As to the manners thing, again 250 years ago, I believe the courtesies were a bit laxer, again due to the fact that Ascelon was more a frontier kingdom. Kryta also, I believe, lost much of the formality since when the royal Krytan line was restored via Salma, she had been a rebel and long out of the courtly ways. I believe as a result, human society in general allows a less formal atmosphere….except for when they want to make a point of things.

Gany

I still find myself at a loss with Question 2. The Nightmare Court have a Grand Duchess, and a Marquis, so since they are evidently inspired by a kingdom-like court, does this mean they directly utilized already existing human titles? I would like to believe so, as that would confirm their existence in human hierarchy but I rather not leap to a final conclusion without direct supporting evidence. There is also a jesting mention of a Viscount.

Considering the lack of a grand duchess or marquis in Krytan, Ascalonian and Orrian society (as far as we know), I’d be inclined to say that in Tyria these are terms that the Sylvari came up with :S?

Delian.7693:

I still find myself at a loss with Question 2. The Nightmare Court have a Grand Duchess, and a Marquis, so since they are evidently inspired by a kingdom-like court, does this mean they directly utilized already existing human titles? I would like to believe so, as that would confirm their existence in human hierarchy but I rather not leap to a final conclusion without direct supporting evidence. There is also a jesting mention of a Viscount.

The Nightmare Court is almost a mockery of noble courts, the titles pretty much earned through how cruel and in tune with the Nightmare one is. Of course, Faolain controls all that and doesn’t seem to care about the ranks other than to use it to drive her followers. Really, it’s a pageant being played out without any real knowledge of nobility at all.

As for the “Grand Viscount of Candy Corn” . . . yeah, “Mad King Thorn”. All I am gonna say on that score

Went ahead and played back through the TowerTalk podcast, since no one here seems to have reported those details. Here’s what I turned up.

1. First, and most importantly, the devs haven’t given much thought to the specifics of the system. They say they haven’t made out what the precise hierarchy of titles actually is, beyond that the queen/king is at the top and the plain lords and ladies are at the bottom.

2. They say they pull pretty directly from typical European feudal systems, so while they haven’t cemented anything it is likely safe to assume for the moment that any standard feudal titles (duke, marquis, earl, count, viscount, baron, et al.) either exist or had existed.

3. The ranking system is now only an anarchism of past times and no longer has practical significance. It was based on land held and administrated, but between the abandonment of vast swathes of country and high society’s present preference for and removal to Divinity’s Reach, there’s now nothing to set a duke or baron above a mere lord but the prominence of their long-dead ancestors.

4. Comparative power among the modern nobility is based on the age and wealth of the families, which would not always be reflected by titles.

5. This is a comparatively small thing, but, in my opinion reflecting the broad strokes approach to the nobility, there are inconsistencies between what Angel and Scott say and what character say in-game; for example, their assertion that the Ministry only takes nobility rubs wrong against the testimony of Minister Rachel.

Interesting topic, interesting answers~.

Gany.1793:

Ascelon was definately different than Krytan. They were considered more a “Frontier” kind of Human Kingdom, having expanded into the lands formerly held by the Charr. As such, it was more a popular will and strength of arms and abilities at war that determined the next King. Duke Barradine should have become King, but the issue of the Guild Wars was always a major part of the royal succession. Alberdeen was able to take the crown because he was strong, smart and, in simple truth, ambitious. Barradine was not truly interested in the possition, or so it seems to me, which is why he did not object or try to take back the throne.

Eh…they were a full fledged kindgom, I don’t know where you get the “frontier” part. They actually won the 2nd Guild War against Kryta. Adelbern got the crown for 4 reasons:

• the current line of royalty(which included Barradin, although he himself didn’t seem to be corrupt at all) was supposedly so corrupt that the people wanted a change.
• the bloodshed caused by the 3rd Guild War(which many commoners viewed as a political war) was so bad the people were looking for a new leader to get them out of it.
• Adelbern was reportedly a brilliant and sound general.
• Adelbern was also extremely popular with people, and was “crowned king by the people’s demand” according to the wiki.

From the in-game clues and dialogues, Barradin readily approved of Adelbern over him, even to the point of vilifying renegade Royalists trying to oust Adelbern. His turn to madness in GW2 is supposed to be because he just couldn’t deal with his son’s death(which he probably felt guilty about since he was the one that exiled him in the first place) and the seemingly endless years of slowly losing to the Charr.

Aaron Ansari

Thanks for the podcast summary. It’s good to get a glimpe into the devs minds, if only for a tiny piece of the Tyrian pie. =D

Proper titles for Tyrian Nobility:

1.) Thief.
2.) Tyrant.
3.) Despot.

1: While it is clear that the social hierarchy in Kryta and Ascalon shared a European system of government, I do not believe this is true for Cantha and Elona. Remember both Kryta and Ascalon appear to share many traits with feudal England and France respectfully. Kryta has the english title “Baron” where as Ascalon has the french counterpart “Duke”, also their weapons bear a striking resemblance to the weapons of feudal Europe. Cantha on the other hand has a very clear Japanese culture to it. Its leader is called “The Emperor” and every weapon we have seen from the Jade Empire is a katana or Odachi (Think Marjorie’s sword). Elona on the other hand is reported to have a more African culture to it. It’s also ruled by a dead guy, so I’m not really sure how that’s supposed to work…
2: As for the titles and how they are used, please note this is base purely on what I’ve seen shown in Kryta, it seems to be a very basic design of the Hierarchy of their respective Kingdom. Based on what I’ve seen Baron/Duke appears to be a special title given to member of the nobility with a more direct tie to the royal bloodline. (ex. Duke Barradin was the brother of King Adelburn) Also it should be noted that Countess Anise appears to be the only person with that particular title in all of Kryta (if there is someone else, please let me know) this would suggest that Count/Countess might be a special title used to refer to the current Master Exemplar in polite company. Everyone else in the nobility is apparently called a Lord/Lady.
3: I know for a fact that these titles are used exactly as they appear (ex. Countess Anise is called “Countess Anise” and so on) I know this because anytime you talk to anyone in cinematic you refer to them as [title] [name].
4: It appears to be a mix of both with many of the nobility owning land outside the city, yet living within Divinity’s Reach. The ongoing war with the centaurs and increasing attacks from bandits may have driven the Nobles to seek shelter within the capital’s walls.
5: As far as I have seen, The Ministry appears to function in much the same say as the UK Parliament. Ministers are elected to their position by the people they represent. As far as I’m aware there is no rule stating that they have to be of noble birth, hell they don’t even have to be Krytan, the only regulation I’ve seen is that minister must own land. This is supported by the fact that it was set up specifically to give all humans a voice in the kingdom by the late King Baede. It is further supported by the fact that the ministers and the nobles do NOT get along as noted by Lord Faren during the quest “Party Politics”.
6: It varies depending on how involved someone is in Ministry politics. Ministers and nobles with ties to the Ministry appear to treat everything with a level of subterfuge and under handed dealings (a.k.a. they’re all politicians, with secret agendas and people to please), whereas everyone else seems much more relaxed. There is however a level of decorum that everyone is expected to abide by as suggested in the quests “Party Politics” and “A Society Function”. Basically, be polite and don’t be blatantly insulting. (ex. Its bad form to be blatant in invasive at a party)
7: As far as I’m aware all nobles, at least in Kryta, have ties to the crown. That said members of the royal families have been know in our recorded history to say “This man is related to an ancient and royal line because I said so!” For those of you who don’t know what I’m getting at please read or watch A Knights Tale. That movie is based on actual medieval records.
8: Hmm… yah… As far as line of succession goes… I believe, at least in Kryta, Kings/Queens are named the successor. At the very least I know King Baede did name his and he’s the only King I can find any records of who actually had that choice… The only other King with lore on succession for the throne was good ol’ Mad King Thorn and he murdered both his brother and his father, so he only got the throne by default. However it is worth noting it’s stated in his lore “…as a second son he was not expected to ascend to the throne” so this might be something start after the psychotic king was executed in order to make sure that didn’t happen again.