Guild Wars 2

This should fit the lore subforum, but if not, feel free to shout at me.

So, during a recent RP-session we realized that while things like norn marriage procedures have been covered, there is little to no info regarding how norns actually view relationships in general.

Do they lean towards one-night stands, or more prone to sticking to someone?
If in an actual relationship, would they tend to go about it as a closed or open relationship?
While it is assumed that once they go into marriage territory, the status of the relationship moves to closed and monogamous, is this actually the case?

Their strong sense of individuality and personal freedom would seem to indicate that they tend to have a rather open view on relationships and sexuality rather than tie themselves down until they find their equal, but still, what kind of evidence do we have to lean on in regards to figuring out how the step between “chastity” and “married” works?

I don’t know about what evidence there is in the game or the lore for it, so I’ll leave that to someone better qualified. As far as speculation goes though, while I agree that individualism and personal freedom are absolutely norn virtues, I don’t think they necessarily lead to open or free sexuality. It could just as easily be the case that they are extremely monogamous and loyal in their relationships, they just pick them up and break them off quite frequently. Serial monogamy, as they say, haha.

It’s also possible that casual sex/‘dating’ (norn hunting dates, hah!) is common, and it’s not considered too serious or exclusive until some form of marriage proposal or agreement. I’m really not sure. I can’t see them leaning too much to the ‘open relationship’ or polygamy end, purely because history suggests people often react badly to the idea of polygamy so I don’t think ArenaNet would go there.

In general, I imagine it probably depends a lot on the people involved in any given case. I always imagined the norn being fairly upfront and unabashed about making their intentions clear. On the one hand, freedom and independance are norn virtues, but on the other hand, so are loyalty and honour.

This makes me think of another question: norn single parents, yes or no? Haha.

Norn relationships are usually built around a union of equals. As much of their culture revolves around boasting, prestige and status, any relationship where one member of the couple is clearly outclassed by the other would soon lead to resentment and feelings of inferiority by the lesser partner.

As such, I have the feeling that Norn marriages are quite rare, and that most Norn prefer to have “relationships of convenience” that last as long as both partners feel happy and content in the relationship. If/when feelings fade, the partners separate and go their different ways.

This system could work by the fact that most Norn do not build or maintain their own homes. Instead, they gather and live at a lodge built and owned by a Norn of great renown, and presumably all Norn staying at a lodge chip in with regards to housework, hunting or looking after children. (For this reason, I believe single parents are in no way frowned upon in Norn society, and that men as well as women suffer no stigma for being the primary caregiver.) Norn who are disruptive or do not contribute to the lodge’s upkeep are probably given warnings, before eventually being kicked out.

Just looking at the animal spirits and the environment they had to live in, I think the family structure and loyalty would be the overriding quality here, making them more loyal to one another than humans. “Serial monogamy” (love the term btw) I could see being the way to go. It’s just the need to rely on one another in order to survive would really encourage a people to not be so open and casual.

Actually there’s a small outpost/encampment which is sheltering a Norn man and his two children. If you ask him what he’s doing there, he says that a group of Dredge raided his home and his wife sacrificed herself to open an escape route for the man and his children. He talks about how he hates the dredge and he’s gonna kill every last one he sees. It seems that Norn do settle down after a marriage, and do feel enough love for their companion that they would sacrifice themselves/feel the need to seek revenge.

a certain kitten npc in the personal story also seems to have a lot of grief from loosing thier “mate” and children.

In Guild Wars 1, a Norn tries to marry your human character because he/she sees your character as an equal. You must then go out and kill a great frost worm in order to make your glory outshine theirs so you can no longer be legitimate lovers. So I think there is a little bit of the equal glory thing going on there, but love does grow out of it for them. Mainly because after they marry, many times they will hunt together to gain glory as a unit as opposed to an individual. This, at least, was the Norn that was trying to marry you’s plan in Guild Wars 1.

Narcemus.1348:

In Guild Wars 1, a Norn tries to marry your human character because he/she sees your character as an equal. You must then go out and kill a great frost worm in order to make your glory outshine theirs so you can no longer be legitimate lovers. So I think there is a little bit of the equal glory thing going on there, but love does grow out of it for them. Mainly because after they marry, many times they will hunt together to gain glory as a unit as opposed to an individual. This, at least, was the Norn that was trying to marry you’s plan in Guild Wars 1.

HAHA, oh yeaaah. I recall it. She wanted us to use a cheese grater to remove the bunions off her feet. LOL.

Curuniel.4830:

It’s also possible that casual sex/‘dating’ (norn hunting dates, hah!) is common, and it’s not considered too serious or exclusive until some form of marriage proposal or agreement. I’m really not sure. I can’t see them leaning too much to the ‘open relationship’ or polygamy end, purely because history suggests people often react badly to the idea of polygamy so I don’t think ArenaNet would go there.

Not to burst any bubbles but apart from very recent western history, polygamy was actually the norm in virtually the entire world. Only by spreading European culture by the sword did the world become more monogamous on surface level. We all know how often people of all genders cheat so even that surface level hides a few interesting things. The reality is that polygamy for both sexes is pretty much the norm, we just don’t like to see that fact in plain view.

Plenty of cultures in the Americas, Africa, Asia and pre-christian Europe practiced open polygamy. Even in Europe monogamous marriages were mostly financial arrangements, while love and lust would be found elsewhere. In ancient Greek and Rome these sentiments were prevalent, while medieval aristocracy openly practiced “courting”, a word derived from the courts of kings. Only in post WW2 history did cheating get the extremely bad connotations it has today.

That being said, a good hunt ends in passionate lovemaking as described very vividly in the books of Belgian writer and colonist-missionary Jef Geeraerts. What happens in those books, I expect the exact same with norn.

Oh, oh I know, don’t get me wrong. Technically polygyny, specifically, has been the most desirable form of marriage in most societies around the world and throughout history. I’m an anthropology major, and after I posted I wondered if anyone would pull me up on that :P

What I really meant was that when it comes to a Western, English-speaking, and especially North American (or chiefly North American) audience, polygamy does not go down well. It’s one of those things that can get a pretty vehement reaction, and the subject is best avoided for marketing purposes unless you’re trying to provoke controversy.

As an aside, I wouldn’t be too hasty associating cheating and some kind of biological tendency toward multiple partners with polygamous marriage systems. There are a lot of very logical, practical reasons for polygamy of various specific forms in different cultures, not to mention plenty of reasons why other societies favour monogamy for equally logical and practical reasons

A norn wouldn’t mate, even in a one night stand, with someone not worthy of him/her. I don’t know if they have open relationships or not. But finding someone with the same exact amount of glory of yours sounds quite difficult. I bet they don’t mate a lot.

Necroing this thread because I’ve been wondering about this myself.

To generalise a bit, Norns seem to be highly impulsive binge drinkers, and from one of the personal story lines it’s apparently not unusual to have no recollection of what you did at a moot. If they were humans I’d expect either quite a few unintended and fairly random pregnancies or some form of birth control. Yet in all the examples I can think of where Norns are described or shown as parents, they’re established as “mated”, even if one partner is currently dead or off on an extended hunting trip.

Some possibilities among many:

— Norns simply don’t fancy anyone not proven to be of equal status, and it’s only rarely (or by conscious management to equalise legends) that they meet someone who appeals.

— It takes some time, and the sort of regular company and hunting together that’s mentioned in Norn marriages, for Norns to synchronise with each other in such a way that they’re fertile together.

— Norns take the local equivalent of emergency contraception with their hangover cures as a regular thing.

Any ideas? It’s possible that the independent status-conscious thing means Norns lead low-libido lives pursuing immortality primarily through their own legends, etc… but I find it hard to get my head around that in a people who have “passionate” as one of their keywords (and who seem to demonstrate such exaggerated super-stimulus secondary sexual characteristics, although that’s the view of a human player).

Norn may practice an early form of birth controle that the Native Americans practiced. In early America, male natives would put a pebble in their moccasin.

………….It made them limp. :P

groan

But seriously….

I imagine they’re extremely monogamous because meeting their equal would generate a pretty strong bond. Not to mention I honestly can’t see Norn males or females reacting well to multiple husbands/wives. I think they’d be pretty open when it came to dating and mating though, until they find someone equal enough to settle down with. Not convinced they’d be a big fan of homosexuals given how practical they are and how children seem like they’d be a pretty big deal to them.

Curuniel.4830:

Curuniel.4830:

It’s also possible that casual sex/‘dating’ (norn hunting dates, hah!) is common, and it’s not considered too serious or exclusive until some form of marriage proposal or agreement. I’m really not sure. I can’t see them leaning too much to the ‘open relationship’ or polygamy end, purely because history suggests people often react badly to the idea of polygamy so I don’t think ArenaNet would go there.

Not to burst any bubbles but apart from very recent western history, polygamy was actually the norm in virtually the entire world. Only by spreading European culture by the sword did the world become more monogamous on surface level. We all know how often people of all genders cheat so even that surface level hides a few interesting things. The reality is that polygamy for both sexes is pretty much the norm, we just don’t like to see that fact in plain view.

Plenty of cultures in the Americas, Africa, Asia and pre-christian Europe practiced open polygamy. Even in Europe monogamous marriages were mostly financial arrangements, while love and lust would be found elsewhere. In ancient Greek and Rome these sentiments were prevalent, while medieval aristocracy openly practiced “courting”, a word derived from the courts of kings. Only in post WW2 history did cheating get the extremely bad connotations it has today.

You’re wrong on pretty much all accounts. Monogamy was very much the norm given that people that have sex with each other develop very strong attachments to each other. Humans are biologically hardwired to pair up and produce offspring and then rear that offspring. Cheating has always been seen as an exceptionally sinful thing to do, as emphasised by being an actual sin in most religions.

Not to mention that monogamy was widespread and existed nearly universally, and in fact the oldest and most widespread examples stemmed from Mesopotamia. Outwith Europe. All you proved was your racist attitude against Europeans.

Not to spoil your bubble and your no doubt fond hope of acquiring multiple wives one day.

Having recently followed a fascinating lecture series about human behavioral biology, my head is full of ideas like this one: primatologists have found they can consistently tell whether a species is a pair-bonding species or what they call a tournament species (where males compete, gorilla-style, to be top male in the group) by the relative sizes of the males and females. Pair-bonding species tend to be around the same size. Tournament species tend to have males markedly larger than females. Humans are somewhere in the middle, which explains quite a lot.

Norns are… more sexually dimorphic than humans, which would put them further towards the tournament end of the scale. But this is a fantasy species in a fantasy world, and my real-world observations and logic don’t necessarily follow here (although they do still condition how I respond to the species).

So… what are the most basic groups in Norn society? The mate-bond with kids, equivalent to our nuclear family? The stead-band, with some level of division of labour and communal child-rearing? I don’t know.

Snippets that I’m trying to reconcile:

— We hear of the concept of Norn “mating”: a socially-recognised pairing of people of equal renown, marked by feasting and boasting and the wish that the couple might never hunt alone again.

— When we have information about kids’ parentage I think the parents are always described as having been “mates”. I’d be very interested in exceptions to this.

— Contrary to Jora’s wedding blessing about never hunting alone, we have at least two examples of mated couples where one stays home (to look after the kids or to run Hoelbrak) while the other hunts for long periods.

— There’s an NPC conversation in Hoelbrak where a woman says she was asked to help a guy raise his kids (I can’t remember whether it’s stated that their mother was away hunting or had died), and that “it’s an honor” and “he’s lonely”.

— In the Wayfarer Foothills there’s a renown heart where one of the jobs is to keep the kids occupied with snowball fights because their mother is away hunting and their father is a bit stressed. Where’s the stead, in all this? If it’s an honour to help raise someone else’s children, why doesn’t the whole stead take it on? Or is it the sort of honour that counts only if it attaches to a particular name and can become part of that person’s individual legend?

— In the north of Dredgehaunt Cliffs there’s a stead of orphans. They seem to survive on their own with help where possible from the nearby Raven shaman. Why? Does the idea of individual responsibility mean that other steads won’t take in extra mouths to feed?

I’m trying to get a grip on what drives Norns in their interactions with each other. Part of that is, yes, whether they have sex or reproductive sex outside of the mate-bond, but it’s also how children are raised, how labour is divided, and whether someone who is injured so they can’t do whatever work they used to do has any social support. Will a crippled hunter starve, or is that when they might take up a skaaldic role?

Who feeds shamans and skaalds?

Well, I have a take on relationships that, while not based entirely on snippets found in game, seems as though it would be plausible. Taking into consideration both the basis for the Norn (nordo-celtic societies) and the concept of the Animal Spirits, you get a wide and diverse approach that mirrors the rest of the Norn culture, which IS supported by available lore. To start, I’d like to take a look at the Spirits.

As far as relationships go, the easiest one to explore would be Wolf. Representing pack and family, among other things, there is an obvious draw to a want and need for a close connection. Working together, sharing responsibilities, and earning a legend as a pair comes across as a viable viewpoint. Also, it is one of those commonly accepted bits of information, albeit slightly skewed, that wolves mate for life.

The next easiest to look into would be Bear. While oftentimes they are seen as surly, aggressive, and generally possessing of a bad attitude, there is another side to them. They are strong, loyal protectors of those they care about, and I could see that as carrying over to relationships once they can get past the grizzled exterior. Wild bears are seen to be great with their cubs, and attentive to their mates.

Snow Leopard comes next on my list in order of “the one”. Individualistic, stubborn, and always up for a challenge, it would be seen as a legend in its own right to “tame” one. Unfortunately, they are traditionally solitary. Cats are fickle, as we all know, but can be extremely affectionate and desiring for attention.

Finally, we come to Raven. Overall, trickery and cunning do not seem to be appealing relationship traits. I could see a Raven using guile and clever words, saying everything right just to be able to make the match, if only for that night. Interestingly though, ravens are one of the few creatures in the animal world that also mate for life. So, if a true bond is formed, it is one that is cherished, though challenged from time to time.

Moving away from the game and the animal kingdom, and putting the existence of gender inequality aside as it does not exist in GW2, the relationship culture of nordo-celtic peoples is interestingly diverse. Various levels and layers of worthiness, examples of love superseding tradition, and tradition countermanding love, have always been key features in stories and legends, just like they are present today. While it is true that circumstance and the social ideas of the time were not conducive to love and affection, and that harsh climates and lives produce harsh people, the relationships between people were just as extreme as the weather. They were known to love as hard as they lived, to ensure every moment they spent with the important people in their lives were treated as if it was their last. And it is that attitude I feel is spot on for the Norn.

Love today, for tomorrow I may die. There would be no hesitation to show care, to display affection. For a people intent on making sure that they are to be always remembered, I would think that they would go out of their way to do all that they could to make the relationship memorable. That point, leads me into children. Nordic society revered children, as they were not only kin, but the future. On top of that, naming traditions such as the use of -sson and -sdottir would indicate that their kids will be associated with the parent, and therefore a point of pride for them. The Norn would be similar.

I’m going to stop here before I ramble on and on too much more.

There’s a woman in dredgehaunt thats getting harrased by her svanir husband.He says she belongs in the kitchen but she tells him they are equal.Then you fight him and she says the should have chosen another husband.

Greymalkyn.8415:

The next easiest to look into would be Bear. While oftentimes they are seen as surly, aggressive, and generally possessing of a bad attitude, there is another side to them. They are strong, loyal protectors of those they care about, and I could see that as carrying over to relationships once they can get past the grizzled exterior. Wild bears are seen to be great with their cubs, and attentive to their mates.

If we’re talking about real-world bears then you’re wrong about their relationships. Your description of snow leopards is closer to the truth. Some species do spend time together while they’re courting and mating but most, if not all, species part ways before they go into hibernation and only the female raises the cubs. They generally avoid all other bears until the cubs have grown because even their own father is likely to kill them for being competition for food and other resources. They also don’t form long-term bonds, next time they’re ready to mate they’ll start the process over again and if they ever mate with the same bear again it’ll be largely by coincidence.

While I’ve got my animal behaviourist hat on though (and trying to ignore the fact that it’s Saturday so I shouldn’t be in work-mode) if one thing is true of biology it’s that for every rule there’s an exception. Nothing is truly “hard-wired” even instincts.

So it’s entirely possible, especially with a species like the norn with more complex social interactions and a lot of factors other than instinct and what is best for the species/individuals survival coming into play that there will be a lot of exceptions. They probably do have one particular type of relationship which is more common, or considered traditional but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if a lot of norn have chosen to do things differently.

Not also that norn marriages are not necessarily for life, either. Heading south from Hoelbrak into the Dredgehaunt Cliffs, you see one man who joined the Sons of Svanir and orders his wife to follow him to their camp, saying, “Your place is by my side, with me!”

Her reply is that she decides her own place and whose side she’ll be at, and she isn’t going to follow him anywhere. So even in marriage, the Norn keep their highly individualistic traits.

I’m still thinking about the deeper issues here and developing my own ideas of Norn values and relationships. In the meantime, though, I’ll throw in links to the dialogues from the dynamic events in northern Dredgehaunt Cliffs involving Myr and “Veteran Potential Mate”:

Beat some respect into Myr’s potential mate

On event start.

Veteran Potential Mate: “How dare you!”
Brandulf: “This day just keeps getting worse.”
Veteran Potential Mate: “Brothers! Come fight beside me!”

On successful completion.

Myr: “Get outta here!”
Veteran Potential Mate: “Bah, I’m done with this.”
Brandulf: “Well, I’m glad that’s settled. Time to leave.”
Veteran Potential Mate: “Fine. I’ll go stay with my Svanir brothers; they know how to live as real men.”
Myr: “Not a chance. Once I might have come with you, but you’re not the same man I married. I’m staying here.”
Veteran Potential Mate: “Your place is with me! By my side!”
Myr: “You’ve been listening to those fools of Svanir for too long. I decide where my place is—and whose side I stand by. And that is not you. Not now.”
Veteran Potential Mate: “Fine. But you’ll regret this.”

Veteran Potential Mate then goes off to talk to his Svanir recruiter. If you interrupt things there you get this:

Rescue the hunter before the Sons of Svanir complete their ritual

Before event starts.

Veteran Dragon Shaman: “Welcome, brother. What brings you to our lodge?”
Veteran Potential Mate: “I seek power. I’m tired of those who show me no respect and those who don’t appreciate my greatness.”
Veteran Dragon Shaman: “Embrace Dragon. Allow his power to flow through you. He will make them pay for their insolence.”
Veteran Dragon Shaman: “Are you ready to join Dragon’s brood? We can start the ritual now.”
Veteran Potential Mate: “Wait! I’m not sure yet.”

After successful completion.

Veteran Potential Mate: “(groan) You saved me. (sigh) What a fool I’ve been. I need to get back to the lodge and apologize.”

I’m still confused about the “Potential” aspect of “Veteran Potential Mate” combined with Myr’s statement that he “not the man I married”, but I’m assuming he’s her once-and-potential mate.

Does there need to be a ceremony or public declaration to make a recognised mate-bond? We know there can be a feast with boasting, but what’s the status of what historically would have been private marriages? Does there need to be a ceremony or public declaration to dissolve a mate-bond?

And, since this is tied in with Norn views on all types of relationships, what’s the deal with the Norn in the area behind the Bear caves who had a falling out with one of Knut’s sons and finally sorted it out in some sort of symbolic manner by leaving him flowers in order to get back into his good graces and, from memory, the Wofborn? Ideally, it’d be possible to get into the headspace enough to understand intuitively the significance of the wreath and the actions taken with the wreath. We get an explanation in that case, but I sometimes envy the NPCs their script-writer-given certainties.

Cato.5970:

Does there need to be a ceremony or public declaration to make a recognised mate-bond? We know there can be a feast with boasting, but what’s the status of what historically would have been private marriages? Does there need to be a ceremony or public declaration to dissolve a mate-bond?

Define ‘need’, though. There’s no overarching government body here. What public would they declare it to?

Consider that Hoelbrak, as a large permanent settlement, is both unusual and basically unique. Norn, as a race, live spread out in small groups or even by themselves in lodges scattered across the mountains. Announcing a marriage could be as simple as going together in the middle of the lodge, shouting that the two of you got married last night, and that’s that.

In the end, there’s probably no need for anything to either get married or dissolve one. If Bob and Jane want to get married, they decide it, and decide how to celebrate it. If they decide not to be married anymore, they’re not.

The public would be their community: the people they interact with in their band, and perhaps whatever count as neighbours and trade-partners. In a less individualistic society that community might support them, and also enforce social norms in various ways. In Norn society I’m really not so sure.

— How might Norns distinguish between “We’re just fooling around” and “Yes, we’re partners”?

— How might men decide which kids to acknowledge as theirs? (This is a matter of social fatherhood as much as biological paternity, but in a culture which uses patronyms it’s usually pretty important.)

— What might happen when either parent neglects the raising of their kids?

For the ‘fooling’/‘partners’ thing, I’d honestly think that it’s up to the couple. Fooling around in general is probably somewhat lesser than you’d see in real life, simply because in real life you don’t compare legends with that girl you met at the bar.

“Hey baby, are you awesome enough to date me? No, seriously, I need to know. I need references on that.”

So if you have two people with equivalent legends who are snogging in the corner, it’s a lot more likely to lead to partnership than you might think.

As far as kids go, note that it’s not a matter of just patronyms; John’s son is named Johnson, but John’s daughter is named Susandottir. But obviously Susan knows that her daughter is hers. I don’t know if Norn society would support ‘one couple at a time’, which would largely eliminate that problem – do bears only mate with one pair at a time? – but I suspect that this is true. So if John and Susan are doing the funky chicken and Susan has a boy, John knows it’s his, even if they aren’t really partners yet.

Neglecting the child, mm. Now, it’s not necessarily ‘either parent’. We know that even married couples don’t stay together all the time – the husband or wife wander off to go hunting or adventuring and leave their counterpart home to tend to the children. Presumably they take turns, and if one of them has a problem with it, they fist-fight or something.

If both parents abandon their kids (or die), I’d expect them to be taken in by the local Spirit Lodge or shaman or such. There’s actually an orphanage just south of Hoelbrak run by a sylvari, who mentions that shamans come by frequently to check on the kids and see if she needs anything.

The idea that you shouldn’t fool around with someone whose story is not of equivalent worth to your own has me — as a human player — shaking my head and saying “You mean, doing something particularly impressive puts me above my cohort and therefore means I’m less likely to get laid?”. I suspect that young Norns, just starting out on building their stories, might be quite willing to blur the boundaries if it gets them a wider range of people to be impulsive and experimental with, especially when drunk. We do come back to my earlier questions about Norn libido, though: maybe they’re just not particularly driven in that way. Or maybe they are and the heavy drinking and fighting are displacement activities because there’s no one suitable around to bed.

Drawing on the spirit patterns for Norn behaviour can be a bit tricky. Among the Wolf-called, do only dominant, pack-leading pairs get to reproduce? Animal bears and snow leopards are solitary, meeting only to mate and then going their own ways: their concepts of fatherhood don’t seem to extend past conception. What we hear from Norns suggests that Norns have a pretty strong idea of fatherhood, though, so I’m wondering how the different Spirit and Nornish models might pull on a Norn called by Bear or Snow Leopard. (“I’m a Snow Leopard: sorry, but I just can’t commit.”)

What’s your evidence that Norns use matronyms? Jhavi Jorasdottir is the only NPC I’m aware of with one. Since she’s a Vigil guard I admit to wondering if that’s a chosen political statement rather than a statement of descent: the timeline means she’s clearly not Jora’s actual daughter, and I thought Joraskin or Jorakin would be more likely as a marker of descent, no? Against that we have the more usual -dottir names formed with men’s names -- Gyda Oddsdottir and Ingun Grimsdottir — and the remaining one that I can’t pick because I’m not familiar with simple “El” as a real-world Nordic name for either sex, Karijn Elsdottyr (are there Dutch Norns?). We could decide in our extensions of lore to give daughters matronyms, but I’m not seeing canonical support for it as standard practice.

I’ve asked earlier about the significance of the stead of orphans, and whether it indicates that Norns won’t typically foster the children of dead parents. There’s potentially something quite interesting there about Norn social limits for when something becomes “not my problem”.

Cato.5970:

Does there need to be a ceremony or public declaration to make a recognised mate-bond? We know there can be a feast with boasting, but what’s the status of what historically would have been private marriages? Does there need to be a ceremony or public declaration to dissolve a mate-bond?

If human societies (all of them) are anything to go by then yes there does. Most marriage rituals started off as almost entirely a public declaration and/or celebration and then specific rites and ceremonies, as well as the legal aspects, grew out of that over time. The ones that didn’t typically grew out of existing rituals.

Even today the core of pretty much any wedding ceremony is declaring to a group of people representative of your society (either your friends and family, authority figures or a combination of the two) that you are now married.

I think a major source of insight has been overlooked here – the scriptures and tennets of OWL. Though now destroyed (and seriously, what divinity of hope doesn’t get killed from time to time ?), she seemed to be the primary patron and influence on family life, quite seperate from Wolf’s encouragement of solidarity and brotherhood which to me seem more like guidance for work and war than around the hearth.

Found them in the wiki .

Owl’s Wisdom

You find a page with a comical image of a fox crashing into a sleeping bear while an owl flies overhead. The caption reads, “Those who charge blindly forward are likely to be surprised.”

—————————————————————————————————————

You can only make out a few lines. “And Owl said to Wolf, ‘Brother, all your hunting is for naught if your family dines alone.’ And Wolf returned to his cubs, for he knew that Owl was wise.”

—————————————————————————————————————

“Olrun called upon the spirits for advice, and Owl replied,‘To build a family on strength alone is to carve a nest of stone.’ Then Olrun was pleased, for she had chosen a kindly mate.”

—————————————————————————————————————

“Olef asked his mother why his bowl was always filled last. She replied, ‘The finest hunter can’t feed her family unless she is fed first. In return, hunters leave no bowl empty. This, we learned from Owl.”

—————————————————————————————————————

“To hear Bear or Wolf is to know fear, for their enemies cannot overcome them. To hear Owl is to know peace, for her enemies will never hear her coming.”

—————————————————————————————————————

You find the crumbling remains of a blessing. “Owl, we call upon you so that we might live by your wisdom. We will hunt silently and well, so that our homes will never know danger or starvation.”

—————————————————————————————————————

This book is too fragile to handle, but a few lines are legible. “All the wisdom of nature can be learned from the Spirits. But beware! The ice dragon’s lessons carry a heavy price.”

—————————————————————————————————————

The weathered text is difficult to make out. “…there came a cry that carried not through the air, but through the heart of every norn. It was then that we knew Owl was lost to us.”

Thanks for that, Nike. I’d heard that Owl had teachings about family, but hadn’t seen them before. (Link.)

So Norn individualism and ideas of success are tempered somewhat: kindness modifies strength, and family company modifies hunting-success workaholism. I’m still puzzling over the likely unintended social side effects of the custom that the hunter eats last, especially in a culture where it seems you can easily leave a group and coalesce into another group with a more favourable ratio of hunters-and-their-kin to people-being-fed.

The hunter eats first.
That way she remains strong enough to hunt and feed other family members.

Reading comprehension failure on my part: you are correct.

Greymalkyn.8415:

…
Finally, we come to Raven. Overall, trickery and cunning do not seem to be appealing relationship traits. I could see a Raven using guile and clever words, saying everything right just to be able to make the match, if only for that night. Interestingly though, ravens are one of the few creatures in the animal world that also mate for life. So, if a true bond is formed, it is one that is cherished, though challenged from time to time.
…

The context in which you use those terms is almost a total misrepresentation of what Raven stands for. Especially when looking from a norn’s point of view. Raven is the least understood spirit by far. Many that look upon such attributes negatively don’t understand, a) his ways, and more importantly, b) some norn values.

Raven is the least understood spirit
Above all, Raven stand for the truth, wisdom, clarity of thought, cleverness, thinking things through, not making harsh and rash decisions. Followers of Raven know that you can solve almost any dispute with kind and well placed words rather than violence. Whilst Bear teaches a focus on physical strength and power (also equally being able to control it) Raven teaches that strength of mind is just as powerful as strength of arms. He teaches that one smart, precise strike is sometimes more potent than many ill-placed ones and the more you know about the prey you hunt, the better your chances. Raven’s followers have good sense and know that we can’t always tell, at first look, what has happened. Flying high above the clouds Raven sees and knows all, and asks for no tribute from his followers, we bless and honour Raven by thinking for ourselves.

We have to think like a norn to understand them
Now while this may not be appealing to us, most of us don’t take the time to look at it from a norn’s perspective. In fact this hole thread is littered with justifications for behaviour based on ‘our’ own lifestyles. That’s simply the wrong way to look at it. Norn culture is what it is, just because we don’t understand their drives or motives for something does not make them false. Most norn do not see ‘right and wrong’ like humans do (us in RL, not the game humans). Many norn do not have the same priorities of family, and mating as humans do. This does not mean all norn hold the same view. There is a vast variety within the race that is plain to see, which in part has been shown above quite well I think.

All norn seek to gain glory and honour, so they are not forgotten, for to a norn being forgotten is to be already dead. But just how they go about gaining that glory and honour is very subjective and depends upon the individual. Some (NPCs) say they will do so by slaying Jormag, others want to be a great cook, yet others want to help friends and strangers alike by helping solve their emotional problems. The scope of what ‘legend and glory’ is to a norn is far wider than the common held ‘go out and kill/hunt something’ belief.

The simple fact is we do a huge disservice to the norn and their culture by trying to stereotype and collate how the whole race feels to something; in this case relationships. How they likely feel to any situation is based on many, many things in their life. Just like it is to us all in real life.

Tarn, I think the difficulty — and the endeavour — here is precisely about trying to get inside Norn mindspace. They’re not human; they’re not the animals whose spirits they follow; so what are they like? How would you suggest we go about this?

As an example, I’ve heard varying things about what ‘counts’ for a legend. Does infamy count equally with more positive renown? If you’re comparing the legends of a mighty hunter, an oathbreaker, a fine crafter, a negotiator and someone renowned for their looks, how do you tell whether those legends are “equal in worth” so a mating wouldn’t be a mis-match?

Honestly, I think it’s a very hard thing to do; putting ourselves in Norn mindspace. When one norn’s outlook can be so different from another’s it’s more than likely almost impossible to do completely. I think the important thing for us all to keep in mind is that there is definitely not a ‘one shoes fits all’ answer to the relationship question. Norn – arguably more so than perhaps some other races in Tyria – are very individualistic in relation to almost all aspects of their life. While some may not care to find a mate at all and would rather be out hunting and wandering the Shiverpeaks alone, others may want to hang out at the Zelechor Hot Springs and try and ‘pick up’ to put it crudely (both of which there’s NPCs evidence of in-game).

The ‘infamy count[ing] equally with more positive renown’ you bring up Cato I think is probably one of the single most important aspects about norn culture. Norn do indeed think that way, and I think it’s very difficult for us to comprehend and understand as our whole lives we’re basically taught there’s a right and wrong way to do things. In relation to this Norn culture seems to be more along the lines of ‘the end justifies the means’ with regards to forging their legend. I’m sure there are some exceptions to that though, there almost always are.

Finally; comparing Legends? I’ve no idea how we tell whether two legends are of ‘equal worth’. Again, common indicators like wealth, land, title, standing etc etc that we tend to look upon to determine such things the norn simply do not seem to generally care about. I guess there’s no objective way of comparison, which in turn leads to the idea that if the two mates are happy they’re an equal match, maybe their homestead/friends/family as well, that’s all that matters? It seems that at the common mating ceremony you have those that talk for both partners about their exploits and legend they’ve forged, and how they’re suited to each other as a result. So I guess some wider acceptance than just the two of them agreeing that they’re a match – legend wise – is usually warranted. I really don’t know for certain.

With the Norn i always think of Hyboria and Conan type relationships, fast fluid and deadly..

The issue of whether forging a legend based on infamy is just as desirable as one forged through heroic deeds is a very intriguing question, and what I know of the Norn through literature and in-game experiences with Norn NPCs tends to be inconclusive. For example, the story on the ANet blog about the young hunter who studies under Snow Leopard in order to murder the Norn huntress who killed his father over an unpaid gambling debt shows that while all of the shamans acknowledge that the huntress’s action was out-of-line, nobody would do anything about it. Likewise, despite the fact that slaying a sleeping foe is not considered an honorable act by any Norn, the Norn nevertheless honor the young hunter for avenging his dead father.
As such, it seems that although the Norn may disapprove of certain actions or behaviour, they nonetheless extend a grudging respect and even reverence for particularly vile or despicable Norn. In that sense, Norn criminals or villains attain immortality not that different from honored Norn like Jora or Asgeir, although most Norn still value “a good legend” over “a disgusting legend”. Nonetheless, when it comes to making one’s mark on history, it seems that some Norn will be desperate enough to go to any length to be remembered. A Norn who is infamous for being a lazy, cowardly wretch who betrayed his own brother may still be remembered throughout the ages as someone that Norn children should not aspire to, thus living forever in the tales of the skaalds.

The only sub-culture among the Norn that seems to be universally reviled are the Sons of Svanir, and only because they have more or less rejected the Spirits of the Wild in favour of worshipping Jormag/Dragon.

Norn may have a very simple equalizing mechanism amongst would-be mates of objectively different levels of legend…

“No matter how mighty my mate’s accomplishments, -I- am the hunter who captured their heart.”

A legendary courtship is still legendary. Kinda levels the field, don’tcha think ? I think the bragging rights for catching an esteemed mate would provide grist for plenty of boasting to help secure status, as long as the lower ranked of the mates has decent storytelling skills.

I definitely lean towards infamy contributing to Legend as much as Honor. Norn Legend as I see it is about transcending the ordinary. It is the DISTANCE from the baseline, not the direction.

That’s a very interesting way of looking at status equalisation, Nike!

And yes, re the infamy/honour thing. Infact, ‘There is no such thing as infamy to the norn.’* Ordinary is often easily forgotten, and to every norn ‘they do fear they will be weak and end up forgotten’*

* From the official GW2 Wiki

“Britta Bloomweaver was no poet, no warrior, no stalker of game, but she was a hunter yet and one blessed by Snow Leopard with exceptional patience and uncanny timing.

Morigren the Ice-Hearted was a Son of Svanir and a warrior of awesome prowess. Not one of those dolts who worships Dragon in the hope of strength unearned. No, Morigren joined that brotherhood of fools because of an unfortunate birthmark that lead him to feel kinship to the Serpent of All Ice. His strength was true, and would have graced any of our lodges had the Spirits taken a firmer hand in his path. His was a fury that would never yeild to the fear in which all Ice-brood are born. His was the Legend of a True Norn.

This then is the tale of how my not-so-timid-as-all-her-friends-thought grandmother set her sights on a mountain-man that shook all the Shiverpeaks like an ice-storm given legs and a booming voice. This is the tale of a dark destiny changed to light. This is the tale of how Bloomweaver gained her title and melted the resolve of the Ice-Hearted with a weapon no sharper than the petals of flowers…"

So whose legend is greater? A warrior of mighty thews and countless victories or a maiden who beat the scheming of Jormag and shamed all the Sons of Svanir… with nothing more than a wreath of flowers?

Norn rock.

I realize this thread was discussed 4 years ago, but I’m rather surprised no one mentioned Eir Stegalkin’s relationship with Borje the Sunchaser (unless that relationship was written into GW2 after this discussion took place ( I only recently started playing GW2)), since one of the key points of this discussion is that Norn’s pick their mates based on each other’s social status (their legend) is pretty much universally established here. In Borje’s wiki, it says he is the husband of Eir Stegalkin and father of Braham, and that he “was once a legendary hero”. Since Eir Stegalkin was also a legendary hero, that only increases the likelihood that Norns pick their mates based on social status. But when it comes to children, however, the story of Braham obviously makes that discussion evermore vague. How did Borje have possession of Braham as a baby and Eir not have much involvement in his life? Did he like, take Braham from Eir after labor so that she would not have to raise Braham while continuing her heroic path? If Norns are so bent on keeping each other’s social statues equal while in a relationship, then Borje would not have just simply settled down in Cragstead with Braham, and let himself die without telling Eir just so she could become a hero. Was Eir not a hero at the time they met, and that’s why Borje wanted Eir to focus on her building her heroic path? Very puzzling!

I’m terrible at Socratic discussions but I love them so I just wanted to add Eir’s and Borje’s backround as another example for these discussions.

MrAtlantis.2740:

I realize this thread was discussed 4 years ago, but I’m rather surprised no one mentioned Eir Stegalkin’s relationship with Borje the Sunchaser (unless that relationship was written into GW2 after this discussion took place ( I only recently started playing GW2)), since one of the key points of this discussion is that Norn’s pick their mates based on each other’s social status (their legend) is pretty much universally established here. In Borje’s wiki, it says he is the husband of Eir Stegalkin and father of Braham, and that he “was once a legendary hero”. Since Eir Stegalkin was also a legendary hero, that only increases the likelihood that Norns pick their mates based on social status. But when it comes to children, however, the story of Braham obviously makes that discussion evermore vague. How did Borje have possession of Braham as a baby and Eir not have much involvement in his life? Did he like, take Braham from Eir after labor so that she would not have to raise Braham while continuing her heroic path? If Norns are so bent on keeping each other’s social statues equal while in a relationship, then Borje would not have just simply settled down in Cragstead with Braham, and let himself die without telling Eir just so she could become a hero. Was Eir not a hero at the time they met, and that’s why Borje wanted Eir to focus on her building her heroic path? Very puzzling!

I’m terrible at Socratic discussions but I love them so I just wanted to add Eir’s and Borje’s backround as another example for these discussions.

Eir and Borje decided collectively to go separate ways. Her calling was to fight the dragon threat but Borje knew she would never be able to do that while her focus was split between her mission and raising Braham. So they decided he would raise Braham and she would go fight. It was all a mutual decision, and a tough one. Borje not wanting Eir to know about his death was so that she could stick to the original plan without being distracted by news of his death.

MrAtlantis.2740:

I realize this thread was discussed 4 years ago, but I’m rather surprised no one mentioned Eir Stegalkin’s relationship with Borje the Sunchaser (unless that relationship was written into GW2 after this discussion took place ( I only recently started playing GW2)),

Pretty much the relationship was written later than the thread. This discussion seemed to have been prior to the game’s official release (when we only had access via open betas), or shortly after, since a lot of families are seen, yet not noticed yet while the discussion took place. And Eir and Borje weren’t known until 6 months after release.

TL;DR of norn relations:

Equals marry, and either side (or neither) will take care of children. Sometimes they leave their children in the care of trusted individuals (like the “daycare” we see in Hoelbrak and Wayfarer) or one spouse goes hunting, etc. while the other stays home (and this can go either way, though ArenaNet seems to have favored female norn being the ones who go out to hunt apparently…); on occasion, we have couples who remain active in building legends, like Eir and Borje or Knut and Gerta, and are separate for extended periods of time.

Though any TL;DR of norn culture is insignificant. It’s one of the cultures with good depth and variety in the game.

Ahhh I see. Glad we finally came to a set conclusion to the mystery of Norn relations, haha. Thanks Moonyeti and Konig Des Todes for clearing that up for me!