Guild Wars 2

I had this thought.

Humans : Sunk Orr, Self-Destructed Ascalon, Has multiple recognized wars between humans (Guild Wars, War in Kryta).

Charr : Race that is centered around the military. Formerly warred amongst themselves until they banded to make the High Legions, then they fought Humans instead.

Asura : Self-destructive race. One of the major political bodies attacks and is attacked by it’s own citizens on a daily basis.

Slyvari : Race that, at the beginning of their life is given a destiny that can involve killing or fighting something, which they follow like law.

Norn : Bunch of hunters. Besides hunting animals, I think the only war they wage is on Jormag out of necessity.

hmmmm, I disagree with many of your discriptions, so listing those I disagree on.

Humans: One human sunk Orr, and he was mislead by a god-entity- The destruction of the region of ascalon was done by char (with help from others). as a last resort in the war with the char, they destroyed the city.

Char: The legion’s where and are the cause of the war amongst eachother, not the solution. They death of their leader and the war around his successor made the legions. the legion’s aren’t at peace, it’s just that 3 of them work together against the 4th, but I would agree Char are the least peacefull.

Asura: The inquest is also a political body, but I see their presence in the council as a way to achieve peace not war. It’s like recognising Sinn Fien in Northern Ireland has helped to resolve the problems with the more millitant people thinking the same way as them (IRA). The inquest is only a small portion.

Sylvari: Ye their wild hunt might call upon them to kill something, and they are very capable of defending themself. But somehow I don’t see the pale tree giving a good amount of silvari a wild hunt to go start a full scale war. I think, compared to the Norn they are definitly more peacefull.

Norn: They always want to porve their strenght among eachothers and others. being competitive in strenght and skill is one of their mayor goals. making them more destrictive and violent then humans, Silvari and Asura. This cause with those three it is a small minority that thinks different. where with the Norn the violence is a primary part of their society, as with the Char. It might sound innocent bar brawls, but it isn’t.

As far as I know, Norns aren’t involved in any large scale conflicts like the Humans (Anti-treaty rebels and Centaurs) or the Charr (civil war against the Flame Legion). Even the Sylvari are actively working against the Nightmare Court. One could call it a war, I suppose.

Asura and Norn really are more peaceful, mainly because they are not in an all-out war against their enemy faction: Asura are somewhat tolerant towards the Inquest and the Norn are somewhat accepting of the Sons’ right to worship Jormag as Dragon.

What I mean is that Char and Norn will be the only races I imagine that a guard would stand by and cheer when two of them get into a brawl instead of jumping in to restore peace.

(though maybe a silvari guard would prolly run away peeing his pants……hmmm, do Silvari have to pee????)

Humans are pretty warlike, they have a history of wars and fights among themselves and with many other races. Pretty much everywhere they settled they drove out the indiginous population. Charr in Ascalon (even though they themselve conquered it from the grawl), Tengu and Centaurs in Kryta. We don’t know if something like this happened in Orr, but we have again, Tengu in Shing-Jea and Centaurs in Kourna. However we have to keep in mind that Balthazar appereantly drove the humans to war with many races, as the orrian history scrolls imply.

The Charr are of course rather prone to go to war, they conquered Ascalon several times and tried to do the same with the Norn homelands, were they failed. They also invaded Kryta and Orr, both times failing. We also know they waged war against the Forgotten at one point, and like the humans, they have fought with other races, like Ogres and Grawls.

The Norn seem rather peaceful in comparison, since they don’t go to war. However, keep in mind that they strife for becoming legends, and the most common way to do it, seems to be, kill something that is very strong. However, in broad terms they are one of the most peaceful races in Tyria, since they don’t judge groups, but only individuals by their actions, meaning besides not building armies, they also would never go to war with another race simply because something a few of them have done, is no reason to be hostile to the whole race.

Asura are known to have tried to eradicate the Skritt, so no they aren’t really all that peaceful. We have no sources about them ever going to war, don’t forget though that we know almost nothing about asurian history. Judging by their rather arrogant and at times even supremacist character, I would be surprised if they never fought anyone.

The Sylvari are too young to judge, they are just around for 25 years and haven’t had much interactions with other races. They don’t even have a racial foe like all other races have (humans-centaurs/norn-dredge/asura-skritt/charr-ghosts/harpies?). However the Sylvari are also somewhat the creator’s pet, they are very rarely shown in a bad light, almost anything about them is ment to show off how great they are. That’s the reason why they are so unappealing to me…

The Norn don’t have a history of out-and-out warfare, but that’s definitely not because they’re the most peaceful playable race. They’re far from it. Individually, they seek to prove themselves through strength and killing, and their battling against the Dredge is pretty senseless.

They don’t have a history of warfare simply because they lack the organisational structures that the other races have. They don’t have leaders, they have champions, and they don’t really take part in wars as a race, but as individuals.

I would hardly say the norn are peaceful – out of all the races, they’re the biggest brawlers.

They’re just not big on warfare because they’re not big on large groups, which is required for warfare.

Asura may want to eradicate skritt and rule over other races, but that’s their superiority complex and not all of them do either – in fact, based on GW2 very few want to eradicate skritt. Most are more interested in using or studying them.

I would argue that the sylvari are the most peaceful of the playable races. Yes, they do battle against the Nightmare Court, and they do fight the Elder Dragons, but both of these are defensive battles. And the Nightmare Court themselves are overall more interested in converting (even if forcefully or through torture) than making fights, and I wouldn’t consider them to be the norm no more than I’d consider Renegades to be the norm for charr.

I disagree. Norns as a whole are pretty kitten peaceful. Their civilization is relatively peaceful compared to the rest. The majority of Norns are just a bunch of hunters and gatherers.

You can’t compare the desire for individual Norns to forge their legend to the organized and large-scale warfare of the Human and Charr civilizations; they thrive on war, conquering lands and stuff. Norns don’t do that… currently. There are no Norn Legions, there is no Norn equivalent of the Seraph or any of the military organizations of the other races. There is just a very limited and localized force (have you ever seen a Wolfborn outside of Hoelbrak?) of peacekeepers like the Wolfborn.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Individually, they seek to prove themselves through strength and killing,

This isn’t actually true. Norn seek to make a legend of themselves via whatever means they are suited for or desire. A legendary artist, a legendary baker, a legendary smith; all of these are equal to a legendary warrior or hunter.

Agreed w/ Son of Elias and previous posters expressing the sentiment that while, individually, Norn seek do glory, one: it doesn’t always translate into glory-seeking through combative or violent means, and two: collectively, they are not particularly inclined to wage mass-scale warfare on others…their adherence to the teachings of the Spirits seems to suggest they just prefer to exist and be (which includes hunting), but not necessarily wanting to exert dominance over others for sake of control – they were forced out of their original territory, but have not sought (despite being there for at least a few generations) to expand the boundaries of where they ended up.

I didn’t think of this before you asked, but actually Norn and Sylvari really parallel each other in as far as peaceful philosophy goes (and I agree, that they’re both probably the least “violent” by virtue of being least looking to exert dominance/conquest/control/blow up internally on themselves). Both races are willing to engage in violence, either for personally glory or personal drive (a Sylvari warrior in Brisban comments on how violence is his way of acting and doing what he must in the world) or for grievances between each other (revenge, a possible outcome of the wreath custom with the Norn, and dueling with the Sylvari). But just as much they live in some sort of respect and harmony with the world around them, and will also pursue very non-violent lifestyles. There’s a large range of attitude between individuals, and some people are just as much going to be inherently cruel like any race.

I guess it’d just be the Nightmare Court that tips the Sylvari to a little more violent to me, since although they’re not the majority they are a collective faction that use extremely violent means to get what they want, and promote a hostile way of living. Sons of Svanir are very power hungry and, of course, you fight lots of them in the open world. But they’re also the result of an outside influence and have a greater capacity for living in peace with people they differ from than the Nightmare Court have proven themselves to be (probably because the Nightmare Court are a more directly opposing faction to the Sylvari’s whole culture, and the Norn are too individual to care as much about changing that).

I guess the Wardens are also a little more offensive as a guard faction than the Wolfborn (with outposts throughout Caledon and all), but they also have a giant and defenseless tree they have to protect, which is what they were formed for, so I can give them that one.

Oglaf.1074:

You can’t compare the desire for individual Norns to forge their legend to the organized and large-scale warfare of the Human and Charr civilizations

But comparing the hostility of an individual norn to an individual human or sylvari, the norn wins in hostility.

skullfaerie.7203:

just because they’re a bit rowdy and like to brawl (and drink) doesn’t mean they’re not peaceful, nice guys xD

Actually, it kind of does. If one is violent, one is not peaceful. And norn get into brawls a lot – and brawls are violence.

I’m not saying that humans are peaceful (you’d kind of have to be an idiot to believe that, no offense to anyone) or that they’re worse than charr. Just that they’re not peaceful, per say.

Well, not necessarily. Norn don’t seem to see their brawls as ‘violence’. They have a good brawl, then everyone laughs about it afterwards and has a pint. Or a quart, I suppose.

I’d compare it to the difference between an argument (shouting, name-calling, etc) and a debate (reasons, consideration, etc). In either case, you are – technically – arguing, but only one is violent.

Son of Elias.5420:

Well, not necessarily. Norn don’t seem to see their brawls as ‘violence’. They have a good brawl, then everyone laughs about it afterwards and has a pint. Or a quart, I suppose.

I’d compare it to the difference between an argument (shouting, name-calling, etc) and a debate (reasons, consideration, etc). In either case, you are – technically – arguing, but only one is violent.

It’s not important how the Norn view their own actions. To judge which is the most peacful race you need to judge them from the same viewpoint. While the typical Human is an citzen the typical Norn is an adventurer. And even those who don’t go around killing things for the fun of it will indugle in frequent brawls in Hoelbrak. The majority of the Norn kill Dredge, Grawl and Jotun whenever they get the chance. They don’t indulge in full out warfare becuase they aren’t ogranised enough for that. They attack races whenever they get the chance and that is the closest they will get to full out warfare. There no way you could call them a peaceful race let alone the most peaceful.

Asura : Self-destructive race. One of the major political bodies attacks and is attacked by it’s own citizens on a daily basis.

replace asura with Norn and it stil fits.

Slyvari : Race that, at the beginning of their life is given a destiny that can involve killing or fighting something, which they follow like law.

Sylvari have a chance of this while Norn are pretty guarenteed.

I’d rank sylvari the most peaceful with norn and asura tied for second.

Dustfinger.9510:

Sylvari have a chance of this while Norn are pretty guarenteed.

No they are not. Only a few select Norn (like our player characters) choose the adventuring life. As stated again and again in this thread, the majority of Norns are content with living a peaceful life, enjoying the bounty of the land.

Or are we gonna start comparing hunting animals for food/hide to the Human/Charr war machines now? lol

Dustfinger.9510:

Asura : Self-destructive race. One of the major political bodies attacks and is attacked by it’s own citizens on a daily basis.

replace asura with Norn and it stil fits.

Well, no, it doesn’t. Dust is referring to the Inquest, which is a recognized member of the Asuran ruling council.

Norn, on the other hand, don’t have political bodies. They don’t have a government. The closest they have are havrouns, the lead shaman for each Spirit. And they don’t fight amongst themselves.

Imagine all the dragons were defeated tomorrow, then look at the Asura. The Inquest would still be torturing people for fun and, at the same time, be practically ruling the capital city. Then look at the Norn. They’d be hunting wild game, baking bread, and drinking lots of alcoholic beverages.

The Norn don’t declare war; that requires an organized society and a government. The Norn are too individualistic to march on another nation. It would never happen. Of the playable races, they are the least likely to get into a large-scale battle with anyone.

Heck, even the charr never fought the norn, and the charr fight everybody. The charr took one look at the norn, said, “Well. We could win, if we threw everything at them. Buuuut, let’s not. Let’s be bros instead.” Then there was a huge bro-fist in the sky and everyone drank themselves into a stupor.

Dustfinger.9510:

Asura : Self-destructive race. One of the major political bodies attacks and is attacked by it’s own citizens on a daily basis.

replace asura with Norn and it stil fits.

Not at all, for the reasons Son of Elias already explained.

Dustfinger.9510:

Sylvari have a chance of this while Norn are pretty guarenteed.

I’d rank sylvari the most peaceful with norn and asura tied for second.

Asura tie with Norn for the second. That made me chuckle. You should really look better into the races, the Asura are atleast, if not more powerhungry when the Charr. As soon as they can, they will try to get dominance over the whole continent.
Norn might be more violent, on average, as individuals compared to individuals from other races, but they are pretty peaceful as a race. Unlike the Asura for example they never tried to commit genocide on another race (the Skritt in the Asura’s case), in fact it would go against their hunter/legend philosophy to eradicate a species. If they eliminate them all now, in the future no one will have a measurement of how strong they were, meaning your legend could become worthless (or greater if you manage to successfully exaggerate). The major exception being the dragons here, they are too dangerous to leave them alive, even the Norn know that.

mercury ranique.2170:

What I mean is that Char and Norn will be the only races I imagine that a guard would stand by and cheer when two of them get into a brawl instead of jumping in to restore peace.

(though maybe a silvari guard would prolly run away peeing his pants……hmmm, do Silvari have to pee????)

eh, i wouldn’t say it’s as clear-cut as that… i can see members of each race reacting in very different ways to the above situation:

Asura Guard: most likely to interrupt combat as it disrupts peace and quiet. somewhat likely to let the brawl continue and even predict and bet on the winner
Charr Guard: most likely to go military police and report the brawlers for misconduct. somewhat likely to cheer them on, depending on the guard’s Legion
Human Guard: most likely to intervene in pretty much the same way the police would in the real world. back alley brawls are entirely different
Norn Guard: most likely to kick them out of the lodge for breaking the rules. once outside they are most likely to place bets and cheer
Sylvari Guard: most likely to sit and watch, curious about the whole thing, intervening if things get too rough. in case of Nightmare, the Sylvari caused the brawl

The main things I considered when I made this post is that Norn are obviously the most barbaric race but at the same time they don’t really do anything that is worse than the other races.

The most violent things I can think of that Norn do are hunt, brawl, fight the dredge, and oppose Jormag.

They don’t really hunt in a way that would cause a genocide of an entire species, and usually since they want to try to take on something that’s challenging for the sake of glory, something like an oversized ice wurm is probably causing problems for the ecosystem anyway.

Most of the Norn brawls seem to be good matured despite being naturally violent, I’m sure a few resulted in injuries but I doubt many result in death. They also request brawls from other races almost like a pastime too, and they don’t care much if they get turned down.

Fighting the Dredge is the closest thing the Norn have done that would be considered warfare, but at the same time, Dredge are pretty much openly hostile to everyone. So if I had to move basically my entire race to a new land, and then there happened to be people that wanted to harm them, I wouldn’t exactly let them be.

Finally Jormag and the other dragons are pretty straight forward. I wouldn’t want something that is essentially destroying the world just rampaging around, plus one that drove the Norn race from their homes in the first place.

Kreindis.2807:

The main things I considered when I made this post is that Norn are obviously the most barbaric race but at the same time they don’t really do anything that is worse than the other races.

How about no?

Charr society is far more barbaric than Norns. It is pretty much based on waging constant and total war; if Charr don’t have an exterior enemy their society collapses into infighting and civil war pretty much. That’s plenty savage and barbaric.

Son of Elias.5420:

Well, not necessarily. Norn don’t seem to see their brawls as ‘violence’. They have a good brawl, then everyone laughs about it afterwards and has a pint. Or a quart, I suppose.

I’d compare it to the difference between an argument (shouting, name-calling, etc) and a debate (reasons, consideration, etc). In either case, you are – technically – arguing, but only one is violent.

Using your argument, charr don’t see themselves has violent. They see their military livelihood as the only way to live. Fahrars aren’t training military, it’s creating strong bonds between cubs! Bonds stronger than blood! Nothing violent in training little kids in how to kill ogres. None at all.

You’re being too subjective. This comparison requires objectiveness.

skullfaerie.7203:

It’s not as if Dredge, Grawl and Jotun just stand around and get assaulted by malicious Norn xD

Actually, some do.

There’s a norn in Wayfarer Foothills who holds a vendetta against dredge for no reason and actively goes to give them pain and suffering. He has an event chain around him, where he creates nauseous gas by burning smelly flowers in a dredge mine, all to provoke them into fighting him.

I didn’t know that’s peaceful!

Oglaf.1074:

Only a few select Norn (like our player characters) choose the adventuring life.

I didn’t know that most of the norn population was “few.”

It’s actually the minority that enjoy more peaceful professions than going out and adventuring and making a legend by killing great foes. Yes, such norn do exist, but the more peaceful norn are far fewer than the fighting norn.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s a norn in Wayfarer Foothills who holds a vendetta against dredge for no reason and actively goes to give them pain and suffering. He has an event chain around him, where he creates nauseous gas by burning smelly flowers in a dredge mine, all to provoke them into fighting him.

I didn’t know that’s peaceful!

Well Dredge and Norn are sort of a special case. Due to Jormag driving the Norn south, they are in direct competition with the Dredge for land. That’s why a lot of Norn task hearts revolve around bullying Dredge in one way or another, lol

I didn’t know bullying was peaceful. ^^

And by bullying, I mean killing and destroying equipment.

Pfft. They’re just Dredge. Which of the races does not bully them one time or another?

:D

Well Norn aren’t perfect, they can be quite some jerks, but this what makes them human (not tyrian human of course) and therefore relatable. They have good sides and bad sides like every other playable race. (Except Planty-Sue’s salad-people)

The language I would use to explain Norn wouldn’t invoke the word “peaceful”

Norn are generally violent.
Norn are generally NOT militant.

Which is the big difference between them and Charr, who are violent AND militant.

The Norn and Charr can get along well because they have a mutual understanding of butt-kicking as grounds for social status. They get puzzled looks when dealing with the other race’s efforts to mass armies – Charr being exceptional at it, Norns being completely ambivalent. Both of them end up wondering how such great (fellow) warriors could could be so wrong-headed about it all .

This is actually part of what makes the Svanir so different from the rest of the Norn Society – most Norn don’t make a huge deal out of which spirit they feel the greatest kinship to. Outside of shamans, its hard to tell at a glance. The Svanir put their choice of divinity right in your face every single moment, and they do it with a lot more unformity in outlook and dress.

You kitten off wolf or bear and you can expect a pack of like-minded hunters to come gunning for you with a loose hierarchy based on legend. You kitten off a Svanir steding and what comes out looking for blood might be a LOT more like an army than Norns typically field with a very definite “general” figure shouting commands.

As far as im concerned meeting a random norn on a cold cold mountain is almost akin to a death sentence.

Ogden said it himself.

They SEEK battle (more so the younger norn) and if you look remotly skilled you can bet your kitten your gonna have to fight off a 9ft tall behemoth.

Peaceful? hell no.

Norn jumping people because they look like skilled combatants doesn’t seem to be as common now as it was in GW1. They’ve learned how to ask first.

No playable race is properly peaceful—in a game almost entirely based around combat, they have to be willing enough to engage in violence that it makes sense why we as players are running around beating on everything in our path (even other sapient races). But Norn have a philosophy and societal structure that has overall been less damaging to the world around them and other people than, say, humans or Charr (what with their territory conquests and their Searings and their attempted genocides…). And I don’t think they’d be as hostile towards the dredge if the dredge weren’t so xenophobic and hostile towards every other race to begin with, not like the Asura are with the Skritt (or the way the Inquest experiment on other races).

Oglaf.1074:

Dustfinger.9510:

Sylvari have a chance of this while Norn are pretty guarenteed.

No they are not. Only a few select Norn (like our player characters) choose the adventuring life. As stated again and again in this thread, the majority of Norns are content with living a peaceful life, enjoying the bounty of the land.

Or are we gonna start comparing hunting animals for food/hide to the Human/Charr war machines now? lol

Do the Norn not seek eternal glory through couragious deeds anymore?

Son of Elias.5420:

Dustfinger.9510:

Asura : Self-destructive race. One of the major political bodies attacks and is attacked by it’s own citizens on a daily basis.

replace asura with Norn and it stil fits.

Well, no, it doesn’t. Dust is referring to the Inquest, which is a recognized member of the Asuran ruling council.

Norn, on the other hand, don’t have political bodies. They don’t have a government. The closest they have are havrouns, the lead shaman for each Spirit. And they don’t fight amongst themselves.

Imagine all the dragons were defeated tomorrow, then look at the Asura. The Inquest would still be torturing people for fun and, at the same time, be practically ruling the capital city. Then look at the Norn. They’d be hunting wild game, baking bread, and drinking lots of alcoholic beverages.

The Norn don’t declare war; that requires an organized society and a government. The Norn are too individualistic to march on another nation. It would never happen. Of the playable races, they are the least likely to get into a large-scale battle with anyone.

Heck, even the charr never fought the norn, and the charr fight everybody. The charr took one look at the norn, said, “Well. We could win, if we threw everything at them. Buuuut, let’s not. Let’s be bros instead.” Then there was a huge bro-fist in the sky and everyone drank themselves into a stupor.

edit: Konig and others answered it well.

Dustfinger.9510:

Do the Norn not seek eternal glory through couragious deeds anymore?

No, and they never have.

They seek eternal glory through being remembered. Courage has nothing to do with it. The Norn who becomes a legend through his awesome tasting bread has as much eternal glory as the Norn who is legendary for forging awesome swords or the Norn who is legendary for exploring the whole world, or the Norn who murders great warriors in their sleep.

Norn have no concept of ‘infamy’. You’re either famous or you aren’t – it doesn’t matter what you’re famous for.

Take a look at Eir’s home in Hoelbrak – there is a statute of the Norn who invented Norn beer. Now there’s a Norn who will be remembered through-out the ages!

Son of Elias.5420:

They seek eternal glory through being remembered. Courage has nothing to do with it.

And how best to get remembered?

By doing something new, or doing something others would never do. The later almost always requires courage. So I wouldn’t say “nothing.”

But I’m just nitpicking.

Oglaf.1074:

Take a look at Eir’s home in Hoelbrak – there is a statute of the Norn who invented Norn beer. Now there’s a Norn who will be remembered through-out the ages!

Just a type of beer, if you wanna get technical.

in Hoelbrak, right next to the keg brawl arena, is a Norn that wants to build his legend by seeing or counting or something all the different snowflakes

…and he’s a big burly guy with a horned helmet

Son of Elias.5420:

Dustfinger.9510:

Do the Norn not seek eternal glory through couragious deeds anymore?

No, and they never have.

They seek eternal glory through being remembered. Courage has nothing to do with it. The Norn who becomes a legend through his awesome tasting bread has as much eternal glory as the Norn who is legendary for forging awesome swords or the Norn who is legendary for exploring the whole world, or the Norn who murders great warriors in their sleep.

Norn have no concept of ‘infamy’. You’re either famous or you aren’t – it doesn’t matter what you’re famous for.

Norn culture is highly individualistic with a focus on personal success and glory – particularly when gained from the hunt or in a battle.

The norn are a race of nine-foot tall Nordic-like warriors

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Norn

A-Net seems pretty disposed to displaying Norn as pretty violent. so, some may seek their name by tasting bread but most do so by feats of strength like hunting and battle. they are described ad a race of warriors.

Son of Elias.5420:

Heck, even the charr never fought the norn, and the charr fight everybody. The charr took one look at the norn, said, “Well. We could win, if we threw everything at them. Buuuut, let’s not. Let’s be bros instead.” Then there was a huge bro-fist in the sky and everyone drank themselves into a stupor.

Wrong. The charr attacked the norn at first contact and continued with border skirmishes at least until Eye of the North (one of the missions in EotN is to retake a norn steading that was occupied by a large charr army). What happened there is that the charr had bigger fish to fry and the norn lacked the concept of collective responsibility that would lead them to strike back at the charr as a nation rather than getting vengeance on individual warbands – and this gave the two races the opportunity to live next to one another long enough for the charr to realise they don’t have to viciously crush all their neighbours.

So while the charr-norn… lack of conflict was quite important in making teh charr what they are today, but the bottom line is the charr and norn did so fight – just never on a large scale.

When it comes to the overall discussion… it really depends on how you define ‘peaceful’. Norn don’t engage in formal warfare because their individualistic culture isn’t compatible with it. However, think about the norn in EOTN – Ogden was terrified of Jora in our first encounter with her because he expected her to attack immediately, and most norn wouldn’t talk to you without a fight first. Like the charr they’ve mellowed – a bit – in GW2, but while the norn acknowledge other means of forging a legend than combat, going out and beating up on other norn, other races, and dangerous creatures is still the most popular choice.

Norn also have that ‘infamy is as good as anything else’, which is something that’s actually quite disturbing when you think about it. Norn culture as a whole (our PCs are associated with the more heroic side) views being a pirate captain who massacres several innocent villages as just as good as being the hero who takes that captain down in single combat, nor do they distinguish between going around picking fights versus challenging only those beings and creatures that pose a threat to others. So as a race… you’re never going to get the norn declaring war on another race or nation. As individuals, though, norn belligerance is matched (yes, matched, not exceeded) only by the charr among the playable races.

Psychologically, there may even be ‘enemy’ races that are less belligerant than the norn – dredge, for instance, actually seem quite mellow when you’re not the target of their institutionalised brainwashing.

Dustfinger.9510:

A-Net seems pretty disposed to displaying Norn as pretty violent. so, some may seek their name by tasting bread but most do so by feats of strength like hunting and battle. they are described ad a race of warriors.

Sure, hunting and fighting is one way to build a legend. But it’s not the only way – there are plenty who find personal glory in ways that don’t involve fighting. As Smekras mentioned, there’s every a Norn warrior who’s trying to create his legend of counting snowflakes.

draxynnic.3719:

Wrong. The charr attacked the norn at first contact and continued with border skirmishes at least until Eye of the North (one of the missions in EotN is to retake a norn steading that was occupied by a large charr army). What happened there is that the charr had bigger fish to fry and the norn lacked the concept of collective responsibility that would lead them to strike back at the charr as a nation rather than getting vengeance on individual warbands – and this gave the two races the opportunity to live next to one another long enough for the charr to realise they don’t have to viciously crush all their neighbours.

Well, that’s not entirely true.

The initial attack by the charr was completely crushed by the Norn. It was an effortless victory on their part. After that, the charr could’ve moved against them in force and probably won, but instead the two races entered a ‘psuedo-alliance’ of mutual non-aggression.

It’s stated that while some individual Norn or wayward Warbands would enter the other’s territory and cause trouble, those were cut down without prejudice and the treaty continued unaffected – which included trade between the two races and passage through each other’s lands.

It is entirely true.

The Movement does not say the initial norn victory came easily, although that’s a minor point. It does, however, speak of ‘warbands and raiding parties’ and, as you acknowledge, individual warbands and norn entering one another’s territory and causing trouble. These are the border skirmishes I referred to. Outside of the Movement, we see – in person - that during the storyline of Eye of the North, a large charr warband occupies roughly half of Bjora Marches and we need to assist Jora in pushing them out. That seems to me to definitely fit in the category of ‘border skirmish’ at the very least.

There was no treaty between charr and norn – to quote the Movement, “a treaty would have been meaningless to the individualistic Norn and no Charr would even spit upon such a paper.” What seems to have happened is, basically, neither side could be bothered to conquer the other – the norn because that would require far too much organisation for their culture (especially at the time) while the charr were less interested in the frozen Shiverpeaks than the more attractive lands to the south and quickly decided that conquering the norn would require more effort than it would be worth. This allowed the two races to grow comfortable with one another over time, but a claim that the charr and norn never fought or that the charr simply decided to be bros is patently false. Obviously, we can’t say with absolute certainty what happened back then, but I suspect what likely happened is that the charr leaders at the time of first contact basically decided “well, we COULD destroy them, but they don’t present a threat to us and we’re more concerned about what’s happening to the south”, and it was only after a few decades or centuries of fraternisation that the plan to destroy the norn eventually was quietly removed from the table.

Regarding your other comment in your post – while the norn do acknowledge other forms of building a legend than fighting, the fact remains that the majority of them still choose something fighting-related when it comes to how to build their legend. In fact, when you think about it, that this is the case despite the fact that nonviolent means of legend-building are just as acceptable is possibly more indication of a fondness for violence than if they did it because their culture said they had to.

Son of Elias.5420:

Dustfinger.9510:

A-Net seems pretty disposed to displaying Norn as pretty violent. so, some may seek their name by tasting bread but most do so by feats of strength like hunting and battle. they are described ad a race of warriors.

Sure, hunting and fighting is one way to build a legend. But it’s not the only way – there are plenty who find personal glory in ways that don’t involve fighting. As Smekras mentioned, there’s every a Norn warrior who’s trying to create his legend of counting snowflakes.

“particularly when gained from the hunt or in a battle”

The norn are a race of nine-foot tall Nordic-like warriors

It’s not the only way but it is the primary way. Which means they have a greater chance of going a violent route than the sylvari. Which is what I said. They are a race of warriors. Not a peaceful race with some warriors and plenty of snowflake counters.

Dustfinger.9510:

“particularly when gained from the hunt or in a battle”

The norn are a race of nine-foot tall Nordic-like warriors

It’s not the only way but it is the primary way. Which means they have a greater chance of going a violent route than the sylvari. Which is what I said. They are a race of warriors. Not a peaceful race with some warriors and plenty of snowflake counters.

Yes, the majority of Norn likely hunt and fight. No, that does not make them all violent warriors. The wiki entry is a generalization – not all Norn are warriors just like not all Norn are exactly 9 ft tall.

We see plenty of what this means in the game. You even cite yourself that the Norn consider glory to be particularly gained through hunting – going after dangerous animals and beasts. Somehow you consider this to be violent and comparable with declaring war, which I disagree with. The idea that a hunter who takes down a man-eating wurm is comparable to a conquering army is somewhat absurd.

As for warriors, this is somewhat of a misnomer since the Norn obviously do not declare war. We know that they often hire out as mercenaries, bodyguards, and host brawls and challenges – we even see Norn who spawn events by saying, “I’m here, someone fight me!”. This doesn’t strike me as very violent either (though obviously it’s more violent than the Norn who counts snowflakes) – this would be the equivalent to boxing or karate. Again, not even on the same level as actual warfare.

Son of Elias.5420:

Dustfinger.9510:

“particularly when gained from the hunt or in a battle”

The norn are a race of nine-foot tall Nordic-like warriors

It’s not the only way but it is the primary way. Which means they have a greater chance of going a violent route than the sylvari. Which is what I said. They are a race of warriors. Not a peaceful race with some warriors and plenty of snowflake counters.

Yes, the majority of Norn likely hunt and fight. No, that does not make them all violent warriors. The wiki entry is a generalization – not all Norn are warriors just like not all Norn are exactly 9 ft tall.

We see plenty of what this means in the game. You even cite yourself that the Norn consider glory to be particularly gained through hunting – going after dangerous animals and beasts. Somehow you consider this to be violent and comparable with declaring war, which I disagree with. The idea that a hunter who takes down a man-eating wurm is comparable to a conquering army is somewhat absurd.

As for warriors, this is somewhat of a misnomer since the Norn obviously do not declare war. We know that they often hire out as mercenaries, bodyguards, and host brawls and challenges – we even see Norn who spawn events by saying, “I’m here, someone fight me!”. This doesn’t strike me as very violent either (though obviously it’s more violent than the Norn who counts snowflakes) – this would be the equivalent to boxing or karate. Again, not even on the same level as actual warfare.

This has been said a dozen times the Norn aren’t organised enough to have actual warfare, yet again I say they attack races on sight which is the closest thing they have to actual warfare. That is their verison of warfare. Challenging people to a fight because they don’t have something to fight is very violent. They frequently fight their allies because they don’t need violence until they can kill something. There is a Norn Priory Scholar in Orr who shouts “I need to fight someone!” despite the numerous Risen around her. Demanding someone to fight you is violent. Fighting people frequently is in no way peaceful. Just because they considered it to be nothing does not make it peaceful. Just because their a race where violence is common doesn’t make them peaceful.

Culturally as a whole? Yes.
Individually? No.

Son of Elias.5420:

As for warriors, this is somewhat of a misnomer since the Norn obviously do not declare war.

Again, you’re mistaking a lack of organisation for formal war for peaceful intent.

If we go back and look at one of the clear sources of inspiration for the norn – the Vikings at the height of their raiding didn’t really think of it as war or invasion so much as a few dozen mates getting together and raiding the soft southerners, but I don’t think anyone would regard them as ‘peaceful’, and the Vikings themselves certainly regarded themselves as warriors. A band of norn getting together to bash some dredge heads together probably has a very similar mindset. They may not declare war, but the typical norn thrives on conflict, and wouldn’t be happy simply tilling the fields in peace and tranquility – even if they did have a shot at becoming the most famous farmer who ever lived.

The most peaceful of the playable races is probably the (non-Nightmare) sylvari – they do value peace and tranquility, both as a nation and as individuals. However, they maintain a standing army because they’re not stupid, and know the best way to achieve peace for their people is to have a strong enough defence force to deter and/or defeat attackers. Unlike charr, norn or humans, though, a typical sylvari won’t go looking for a fight unless it’s to prepare for or prevent a later one.

If we go back and look at one of the clear sources of inspiration for the norn – the Vikings at the height of their raiding didn’t really think of it as war or invasion so much as a few dozen mates getting together and raiding the soft southerners, but I don’t think anyone would regard them as ‘peaceful’, and the Vikings themselves certainly regarded themselves as warriors.

So much this.

if me an all of my friends value reputation so much that we often attack and kill other people just to get more street cred, we would be labled a violent people. We don’t need to declare war on anybody to be violent. So while SoE is right that not ALL Norn are 9 foot tall warriors. It IS a generalization that can be applied to their culture becasue so many of them are. So if the generalization is true then the Norn are a violent people. How is that even up for debate?

So how is a Norn not a warrior if he frequentlly hires himself out as a mercenary? And how does that show that he isn’t violent? Just becasue your people are powerful enough that they never needed to adopt organized warfare doesn’t mean they aren’t violent. In the norns case, they clearly are.

Funniest thing in this thread were the few people saying the asura were peaceful! Look at the asura sub forum and some in here and you’ll see many posts about asura world domination and wanting to subjugate every other species on the planet! Plus as stated the whole attempted skritt genocide thing can’t forget that

To be fair, they wrote out the skritt genocide. And though they are mostly intellectual jerks, the majority do have compunctions about experimenting on sentient creatures. So while they aren’t peaceful, their dreams of world domination aren’t really backed by a whole lot of violence toward other intelligent races. There’s probably alot of politics in their plan. maybe something to do with the travel gates.

They also do not want to exterminate or really kill many of the other races at all in the domination, they wish to supress them more so and use them in experiments or hard labor, they also are not currently attempting domination because they see the threat the dragons pose and thus would be an inopportune time for their plan

Dustfinger.9510:

It IS a generalization that can be applied to their culture becasue so many of them are. So if the generalization is true then the Norn are a violent people. How is that even up for debate?

The question wasn’t whether or not the Norn are violent at all, but instead a comparison how how much violence the Norn have when compared to the other races.

So it would be a question of whether or not the level of violence caused by a bunch of gang members or a dozen vikings is lesser than, equal to, or greater than the violence caused by a charr army, a human army, the Inquest, or the sylvari.

Now, each race has its ‘violent’ faction – Sons of Svanir, Flame Legion, Inquest, Separatists, and Nightmare Court – but I would argue that the Inquest is the only one actually accepted by the race in question (the asura are the only ones who include their enemy faction in their own government), which is why I mentioned them above.

So, if we exclude the Nightmare, sylvari are probably the most peaceful.

However, after that, we’re left with Norn – who are only violent individually, and it varies between individuals; the Charr – who are violent both individually and as a culture; and humans – who tend to be nonviolent individually, but violent as a culture (mostly against the charr, though they are improving).

So while you are correct that Norn are not an entirely peaceful pacifist race, spending all day meditating on the meaning of flowers, they are one of the most peaceful playable races – which was the question the topic raised.