Guild Wars 2

@Konig
First, thanks for taking your time to adress all that. Must have been a lot of work.

If we believe that the status of an Eldar Dragon can be claimed by someone else, after the original Vessel has been destroyed, then it would be something that is inheired.

That means we would have to stop thinking about the EDs as singular entities but as a force of nature . However another thing could be that they are actually beings of pure energy, that take over a body for certain needs.

If Glint would have been able to become said Vessel after Kalkatorik died, then we might see Tequattle doing exactly that. Becoming the next vessel for the Energy we call Zaithan.

If we aply some energy therorem here, then energy is not consumed, but transfered into another form.
What if the ED consume magic, to replenish their own Energy? Like reloading a battery or something similiar.

So far we do not know for sure why they eat energy anyway.

@draxynnic
The problem with the Mists sadly is that it can be anything. It goes through space and time and by all means even dimensions.

This implies that with the mists everything is possible, somwehere, sometime.

However if the Asura want to explain the All and take the Mists into too much account, then they will end up with a problem, that they could say: “the mist done it.”

Which by all measn wouldn`t be satisfying.
If any they are mostly working to understand their reality first, before going into multidimensional theories (though as we know, that is not holding them back from doing so.)

I believe at some place in th mists the SAB is a real place and one day is Hardcore Days which is a glorious slaughter festival.
Ah, good times

Could it be possible that whatever world the six gods came from also had Elder Dragons that balanced the magic in their world?

My theory is: The six gods along with the humans came from another Tyria, sort of like a parallel universe within the Mists. It being the parallel of current Tyria, it also had magic that was balanced by their own Elder Dragons. The six gods could have originally gotten their godly powers from their world’s Elder Dragons by finding a method of transferring the power a Elder Dragon has to themselves.

Ultimately this would be how the six human gods came to be. This would also explain the similarities between how the six’s powers can transfer to another being as seen with Grenth and Kormir. It should also be noted that the gods did give a gift to her in order to absorb his power. This could have also been done for Grenth to absorb Dhuum’s power. Its possible that this is the way that they have transfered the power of their world’s Elder Dragons to themselves.

What do you guys think about this theory?

What’s your argument for why Asura science/philosphy is not good enough to explain the All? Why compare it with 1800’s science?

It’s not because we haven’t found the answer yet, that we can’t find the answer.
You said it yourself: “at least, not with our current tools”.
This does not mean the All is fundamentally beyond explaining. It just means we can’t do it just yet.

But anyway, clearly we are never going to agree on this, and I’m very tired of being the only rational person in a sea of pseudoscientists/neo-mysticists.

On to other matters. I have a question about the elder dragons. Why are the six dragons all concentrated on such a small portion of the globe? We know Tyria, the planet, is actually quite large compared to the continent. Why are they all so close together?

Mental Paradox.3845:

On to other matters. I have a question about the elder dragons. Why are the six dragons all concentrated on such a small portion of the globe? We know Tyria, the planet, is actually quite large compared to the continent. Why are they all so close together?

Most likely because, based on current knowledge, that’s where the last few races that survived ended up. Given that they wish to consume everything, it makes sense that as the food source moves/runs out, so would they. Essentially they may have all followed the races to Tyria or just eaten everything everywhere else.

Also the Bloodstone, which is essentially the same concept.

Mental Paradox.3845:

What’s your argument for why Asura science/philosphy is not good enough to explain the All?

Let us suppose that nothing is impossible within the All. Anything can happen if there is a will to make it happen. We don’t need to know who or what can make things happen, but anything can happen. This means that anything that quantifies the All could, on occasion, be wrong as it is possible for any alternative result to happen. The more that the Asura quantify the eternal alchemy the more possibilities for error they create.

Mental Paradox.3845:

What’s your argument for why Asura science/philosphy is not good enough to explain the All? Why compare it with 1800’s science?

It’s not because we haven’t found the answer yet, that we can’t find the answer.
You said it yourself: “at least, not with our current tools”.
This does not mean the All is fundamentally beyond explaining. It just means we can’t do it just yet.

But anyway, clearly we are never going to agree on this, and I’m very tired of being the only rational person in a sea of pseudoscientists/neo-mysticists.

On to other matters. I have a question about the elder dragons. Why are the six dragons all concentrated on such a small portion of the globe? We know Tyria, the planet, is actually quite large compared to the continent. Why are they all so close together?

On the Asura:

You are right. We are missing the tools to understand everything at the moment and the same could be for the Asura.

The thing with the Theory of All it would encompass everything. However then we got the question of: “everything of what?”

Lets`s say we bind it to reality. A formular that explains every molekular movement and can predict the past and future, then it would still be simply for only this definied reality.

With the Mists we have the introduction of a multidimension theory. These dimensions could be very close to the prime one, as they would only have a little difference, to the point that they could be working completly different from what we know, because magic, you know.

So we end up with the dillema that even if we could crack the code for our dimension and understand everything there, it would not nescessary be the same in dimension 3546.

We are also talking about magic here and the fact that this could really be truely chaotic in a sense that we would never find a statisitcal ground to base theories upon.

There could be true chaos out there in this world somwhere and we would not be able to comprehend it.

That being said, Gods are said to have their own personal plane, on which they reign supreme and have their own rules.
Suddenly your magic or technology does not work anymore, because you are cut from your source or instead of willpower it works on fear, or another form that is not easy to grasp.

As for the dragons

There are theories that they woke up here, because it was simply where they went asleep.
Maybe this was the last place where they found magic in their last cycle, which could explain their proximity.

Otherwise just because they woke up here, it does not mean thaey are still there.

While primordus migh have woken up under the earth, we haven`t seen him for a while. maybe he is able to travel underground.

draxynnic.3719:

The purple fire, purple lightning, and so on that you mention are associated with mesmers, which in turn are associated with Lyssa. Furthermore, while many mesmer skills look like lightning, strictly speaking, they’re chaos energy, not lightning. Killing an enemy with Spatial Surge doesn’t generate the ‘electrocution’ animation, for instance.

As you said: mesmer lightning is not actual lightning; but with the Branded and Kralkatorrik it is actual lightning. Similarly, the effects of Branded fire and mesmer fire are very much different – as one is literal fire that’s purple, while the other is illusionary fire.

I don’t think linking the two just because of a shared color holds much weight. Jeff Grubb was once asked if there was a tie between Kralkatorrik and Abaddon due to that shared color, and he responded with “purple is the color of evil.”

Of course, this gives a potential subtle insight on Lyssa and Mesmers…

But still, there’s strong difference between the mesmer’s ability and the Branded’s while the only similarity is color.

draxynnic.3719:

Unfortunately, it’s hard to tell whether such effects from Branded count as chaos or electricity, but in a lot of cases they behave more like chaos to me (with the exception of branded air elementals as a special case, of course).

To me, it’s only a single case: Branded Plants in Lowland Burns create a Chaos Storm effect around them. But all other lightning, and the Brandstorm, and Branded Air Elementals all appear to be lightning.

draxynnic.3719:

It’s also based somewhat on an observation that the schools of magic do seem to form a spectrum. Using the bloodstone terms, denial is purple, preservation is blue, and aggression defaults to green. Destruction is harder to pick because usually it’s used to conjure an element… but something to note is that cases in GW2 where an elementalist skill is using magical force directly rather than conjuring an element, such as with the arcane skills, it’s a slightly greenish yellow – close to, but yellower than, the ranger colour.

Thieves seem to use denial, but their color is black/red/gray.

Rangers seem to go with elementalism – ergo destruction – but is green.

I don’t think there’s much weight in this argument.

draxynnic.3719:

Personally, I don’t put too much stock in the facets to understand the gods in their totality. They are, after all, facets - they represent a facet of the god, but not necessarily one of the defining elements.

Technically, all of their “domains” are mere facets of their power. Death is but a mere facet of Grenth – as is ice, darkness, judgment, etc.

lakdav.3694:

Didnt Scarlet say that chaos magic and Elder Dragon energies are the same (in the Thaumanova fractal)?

No, she said that the Inquest confused dragon energy for chaos magic.

As Ellen Kiel says after further research:

→ What do you want people to know?
“Just the basics: the facility was intended to study chaos magic, but the Inquest and their so-called “specialist,” Scarlet, pushed things in dangerous new directions."
→How so?
“They claimed there was a link between the Thaumanova’s chaos energy and Elder Dragon energy. They ramped things up past the point of safe operation, and the reactor melted down.”

lakdav.3694:

Traditionally Chaos is considered to be the original state of the world before creation. Pretty akin to the Mists in the GW universe. Raw, unrefined and unpredictable magic that who knows what it will do.

From my gathering, magic is refined into three forms of magic/energy: Chaos, Light, and Dark. Chaos comes from Thaumanova – Light and Dark energies were mentioned as the power behind the Prime Hologram (light) and Ultraviolet Hologram (dark). This coincides with the damage types of GW1 (Light/Holy, Dark/Unholy, and Chaos) which were related, usually, to specific professions (Monk/Paragon, Necromancer, and Mesmer respectively); these professions are suspected to be Preservation, Aggression, and Denial schools respectively.

Take that for what you will.

lakdav.3694:

At this point i must wonder: had we not associated illusions and chaos the same color palette, purple/violet, would we ever link them together (Lyssa aside)?

Arguably yes simply due to chaos magic being a trait of mesmers in GW2, and a major damage type in GW1.

Jaken.6801:

If we believe that the status of an Eldar Dragon can be claimed by someone else, after the original Vessel has been destroyed, then it would be something that is inheired.

That means we would have to stop thinking about the EDs as singular entities but as a force of nature . However another thing could be that they are actually beings of pure energy, that take over a body for certain needs.

Hmmm, I disagree. But partially.

Under such a notion, you can take the Elder Dragons – as well as the Six Gods – to be a combination of two things:

First, you have the individual. Dwayna, Grenth, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyss, Ilya, Dhuum, Abaddon, Kormir, Abaddon’s unnamed predecessor; Primordus, Zhaitan, Jormag, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, and “Scleritethin” (what I am calling the DSD).

Then you have the power – or equally proper: the role – that they hold. This would be the spheres of influence.

The individuals can be viewed as super powerful beings – mortals that have become gods, if you would – while the power/role, the spheres of influence, are the true forces of nature.

To bring it down to scale, think of it like Storm from X-Men. She is an individual, who is capable of controlling forces of nature that is weather. In the same respect, Mordremoth is an individual, who is capable of controlling the forces of nature that is mind and plant.

That is my interpretation of this Antikytheria/The All/Eternal Alchemy.

Jaken.6801:

If we aply some energy therorem here, then energy is not consumed, but transfered into another form.
What if the ED consume magic, to replenish their own Energy? Like reloading a battery or something similiar.

So far we do not know for sure why they eat energy anyway.

This seems to be more or less true, actually. We have no evidence to point out that magic has a state of entropy – as such, it simply, for all we know, changes location and form: from ambient magic in the world, to magic within the dragon, to corrupted magic in minions and/or to ambient magic in the world.

If magic has a state of entropy, or a state of breaking the cycle, I would argue it to be “dragon energy” – which by all appearances, is the Elder Dragons’ respective corrupting magic (it cannot simply be “magic from Elder Dragons, corrupting or not” as then all magic would be dragon energy).

Xukavi.4320:

Could it be possible that whatever world the six gods came from also had Elder Dragons that balanced the magic in their world?

That would be what the Six Gods’ predecessor would be – if they themselves are not originals.

Xukavi.4320:

My theory is: The six gods along with the humans came from another Tyria, sort of like a parallel universe within the Mists. It being the parallel of current Tyria, it also had magic that was balanced by their own Elder Dragons. The six gods could have originally gotten their godly powers from their world’s Elder Dragons by finding a method of transferring the power a Elder Dragon has to themselves.

While multiple Tyrias have been confirmed as creations of the Mists, it is stated tat all major events and important figures are the same. This includes the gods. This is ANet’s way of putting the servers into lore – so for however many servers there are, there are that many Zhaitans, Jormags, Kormirs, Dwaynas, and Dhuums.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/25iqrv/i_attended_the_gw2_china_beta_festival_heres_some/

Mental Paradox.3845:

It’s not because we haven’t found the answer yet, that we can’t find the answer.
You said it yourself: “at least, not with our current tools”.
This does not mean the All is fundamentally beyond explaining. It just means we can’t do it just yet.

But anyway, clearly we are never going to agree on this, and I’m very tired of being the only rational person in a sea of pseudoscientists/neo-mysticists.

But it looks to me that you just did agree. The All can be defined, but the way the asura are going about it is simply not the proper way to go about defining it. Which is what I got out of Ogden too – the asura just have the wrong mindset for how to learn the Eternal Alchemy/Antikytheria/the All to be able to define it.

Mental Paradox.3845:

On to other matters. I have a question about the elder dragons. Why are the six dragons all concentrated on such a small portion of the globe? We know Tyria, the planet, is actually quite large compared to the continent. Why are they all so close together?

We mostly don’t know, but I answered my theory on this question earlier in the thread. In short: I think it would be the Bloodstones.

Only 1 dragon (Kralkatorrik) has a heavy known influence during the previous rise with Tyria, and 2 others have minor influences (Jormag and Primordus); the other two that are near Tyria now (Zhaitan and Mordremoth) only have their locations of hibernation as the only evidence of their interaction with Tyria during the previous rise.

And Jormag wasn’t even in our game map (GW1 or GW2) but north of it – near the arctic sea, which if you look at the world map textures, is FAR north. Like, wtf far north. It seems to me that Jormag pulled a Kralkatorrik when he woke and flew some ways south to push the norn south in the four years after he woke.

@Jaken: The problem is that the Mists interact with Tyria – and the ‘spirit realms’ that are already being incorporated into the model are probably part of that interaction. You could build a model of Tyria that disregards the Mists, and depending on how much interaction there is, this model may work most of the time… but it would be like a model of physics that disregards quantum mechanics and relativity. Used on the scale of macroscopic objects with small velocity differences – such as everyday life on Earth – classical mechanics give pretty good answers most of the time. However, there are some things where it would be thrown off completely because quantum or relativistic effects have come into play. Similarly, a model of Tyria that ignores the Mists is going to fail whenever Tyria and the Mists interact… which seems to be a lot, particularly if magic is actually a Mists phenomenon.

@Mental Paradox: First, I resent your insinuation. As I stated, this is a fantasy setting. One of the distinctions of fantasy settings is that they often have phenomena that are undefinable by the scientific method, and where the spiritual answers are sometimes the correct ones – that’s the fantastical element. I enjoy fantasy settings because they fall outside of the rational mindset in real life.

Second, I’m comparing Asura science/philosophy to 1800s physics because, to put it bluntly, that’s what it looks like. 1800s physicists looked at the universe as one big machine where, if you understood how everything fit together, you could predict everything. The Asura view of the Eternal Alchemy is one big machine. In the real world, the discovery of quantum mechanical phenomena and Einstein’s formulation of the theories of relativity revolutionised physics and relegated classical mechanics to an approximation that applies at certain frames and scales. Given the chaotic nature of the Mists, at best I think the asura need to dispose of the ‘machine’ model of the universe and come up with something a little less deterministic, based on probabilities of certain events happening (as is the case with quantum mechanics) rather than imagining that everything works together in a deterministic fashion like a well-oiled machine. Ogden’s statement might be coming from the perspective of many phsysicists who say that anybody who claims to understand quantum mechanics has misunderstood quantum mechanics – he knows enough to know that the asuran model just isn’t going to work. Rather than trying to define everything, the asura need to allow a little bit of uncertainty into their model.

At worst, the Mists do actually have a degree of sentience (note that sentience and sapience are not the same thing, although often confused) and that really throws a spanner into the works. That’s why the pseudoscience of intelligent design is so pernicious – the scientific method unfortunately cannot do anything to debunk the claim that an intelligent designer is operating in a manner that looks like evolution. All we can do is demonstrate that evolution is a sufficient explanation that can make testable predictions and which thus far has passed every test.

@Konig: And how exactly do we KNOW that Kralkatorrik’s purple lightning and purple fire is real lightning and fire? We can’t test it with aeromancer insignia, after all.

The question Jeff fielded was, if I recall correctly, quite specific to Abaddon and Kralkatorrik – he was pointing out that purple is used as an ‘eerie’ colour and that colour matching on its own does not necessarily represent a connection. However, this does not mean it can be generalised to mean that there is never a significance when it comes to colour. Furthermore, Kralkatorrik’s effects have more in common with mesmer effects than simple colour – many of them look similar to mesmer spells, and those that don’t have similarities with effects generated from creatures that have been said to use mesmer-like magic in the past – for instance, the eye beam of female human Branded is similar to the eye beam used by veteran Riders.

Regarding thieves and rangers:

I acknowledged that certain effects might cause a phenomenon associated with one of the schools to appear a different colour than the school – primarily elemental effects, but effects related to blood would also count (this applies to the necromancer as well as thieves), as would anything that generates or is associated with darkness (blackness). However…

The majority of thief skills and attacks are associated with an indigo aura – between the guardian and mesmer in shade, and darker than both. Load up your thief and make a few swipes with your basic melee weapon (or fire a few arrows from a shortbow) and you’ll see it. This is, I think, pretty much the closest colour it would be to mesmers while still being distinct from both mesmers and assassins (which were pink in GW1, and thus thief and assassin essentially ‘bookend’ mesmer violet). The pistol autoattack is an exception because it causes bleeding - a similar red trail is seen with the warrior sword auto.

Similarly, regarding rangers: I think you missed where I pointed out that the default colour for elementalist arcane effects is a greenish yellow, very close to rangers. In fact, if you repeat the same experiment with a ranger, then the trails behind ranger melee weapon attacks, and the colour of most ‘spirit animal’ attack animations, is a greenish yellow that’s actually pretty close to identical to most arcane skills (Viper Strike is a little greener, but that’s probably because it’s associated with poison). The professions you’re bringing up as a hole in the theory are actually part of the observations I made to formulate it.

The actual bit that niggles me is warrior melee – it’s mostly grey (which I interpret as ‘no magic at all’) but there is a little bit of yellow in the trail that may or may not mean something significant, and linking warriors to elemental magic doesn’t really feel right, unless that really is how they’re getting flaming arrows…

I think its a mistake to say that colors have specific themes. Its more like themes happen to have colors, that is, their manifestations usually have colors.

Visible light and color is a very narrow part of the entire electromagnetic spectrum. Its merely a side effect of whatever is causing the actual event. Likewise even in nature a specific color can mean entirely different things. Red can be a warning about danger on a toxic frog’s skin or the cap of a poisonous mushroom, while it also lures insects to flowers for polinations. Other colors have no meaning whatsoever, and just happen to be that color, like the blue of the sky or the green of grass. It doesnt have a reason, but it is a cause of different relating effects.

Assigning colors to professions is a left-over from the GW1 days where the bosses of specific professions would have specificly colored aura. I dont reject the idea that the developers willingly put these colors on some particle effects and skill icons, but i dont think that going so far to say that they are super relevent in the sense that everything purple is either evil or mesmerism (but most preferably evil mesmerism) is wise. There is just so few colors that the human eye can discern, compared to the almost infinite things that can be associated with said colors, depending on culture, perception, lighting and mood.

I understand that Kralk is covered in crystals, and that it’s minions are as well, but aren’t those crystals simply chaos crystals? Similar, if I recall correctly, to the crystals in the chaos crystal caverns, if not outright the same. Would it not therefore be better to define it as the chaos Dragon? That would account for many of the characteristics that we see outwardly from it, like the storms, which resemble the mesmer skill. Therfore it’s minions displaying crystals on themselves, the corrupted plants, ground etc., are merely solidified versions of its energy. I think I also remember reading that it’s body was composed of crystal and energy. To me that sounds like a chaos storm that just solidified in places to form a dragon.

Edusd.7893:

I understand that Kralk is covered in crystals, and that it’s minions are as well, but aren’t those crystals simply chaos crystals? Similar, if I recall correctly, to the crystals in the chaos crystal caverns, if not outright the same.

You would first need to connect those caverns to the powers of the dragon. All I see among its minions, is crystals that have a corruptive influence. They don’t use chaos magic.

Edusd.7893:

Would it not therefore be better to define it as the chaos Dragon? That would account for many of the characteristics that we see outwardly from it, like the storms, which resemble the mesmer skill.

Resemble, but that is just a visual. It doesn’t make it chaos magic.

Edusd.7893:

Therfore it’s minions displaying crystals on themselves, the corrupted plants, ground etc., are merely solidified versions of its energy. I think I also remember reading that it’s body was composed of crystal and energy. To me that sounds like a chaos storm that just solidified in places to form a dragon.

Sounds to me like you are reaching very far to make this connection work. I’m right there with Konig on this one. Kralkatorrik and his minions seem more in line with the aspects of the Zepherites (which are again using fractions of Glint’s magic), but corrupted versions of those spheres of magic.

Ironicly enough, the formation of crystals is the most orderly thing imaginable in nature. The term “chaos crystal” itself is an oxymoron.

@Konig: I know the whole parallel universe theory was used to explain multiple servers. I was talking more about where the gods originally came from. That world where they brought the humans from. We already know some of the gods had predecessors if not all of them. It could be these predecessors are the ones that took the power orinally and the power was passed down generations along with the knowledge of how to transfer this power.

draxynnic.3719:

@Konig: And how exactly do we KNOW that Kralkatorrik’s purple lightning and purple fire is real lightning and fire? We can’t test it with aeromancer insignia, after all.

The lightning is directed towards and conducted by metal probes. That acts like lightning to me.

draxynnic.3719:

The question Jeff fielded was, if I recall correctly, quite specific to Abaddon and Kralkatorrik – he was pointing out that purple is used as an ‘eerie’ colour and that colour matching on its own does not necessarily represent a connection. However, this does not mean it can be generalised to mean that there is never a significance when it comes to colour.

Via google search I was able to find a quote of Jeff’s wording, but not the original – it was on Guru2 and their change of urls have messed up with that.

The fact that Abaddon’s minions had that purplish glow and what we’re seeing in the crystal is as far as I know. Coincidental because purple is of course, the color of evil. The fact that there is some similarity— dragon’s contain a lot of power. And the nature of that power comes to the surface. Not all dragon minions are purple in nature. So there’s no definitive link between Abbadon and Kralkatorrik.

Dere ye go.

Just like Mordremoth’s more powerful vines are giving off purple mist, and some risen-plants in Desmina’s Hollows and Arah glow purple, is because purple is the color of evil and the nature of the dragons’ power comes to the surface.

draxynnic.3719:

Furthermore, Kralkatorrik’s effects have more in common with mesmer effects than simple colour – many of them look similar to mesmer spells, and those that don’t have similarities with effects generated from creatures that have been said to use mesmer-like magic in the past – for instance, the eye beam of female human Branded is similar to the eye beam used by veteran Riders.

I pass this off as reusing animations. Anet did a lot of this and subtly (or not so subtly) changed things over the months. Branded Air Elementals, for example, didn’t have any purple glow to them until all Air Elementals were given a leg and tail.

draxynnic.3719:

Similarly, regarding rangers: I think you missed where I pointed out that the default colour for elementalist arcane effects is a greenish yellow, very close to rangers. […] The professions you’re bringing up as a hole in the theory are actually part of the observations I made to formulate it.

So both Elementalists/Rangers, and Necromancers, are green. That was the plot hole I was trying to point out.

Though mentioning this, I just realized: Mordremoth’s orb was a lime-green color, while Zhaitan’s a Black-green color.

Edusd.7893:

I understand that Kralk is covered in crystals, and that it’s minions are as well, but aren’t those crystals simply chaos crystals? Similar, if I recall correctly, to the crystals in the chaos crystal caverns, if not outright the same.

Nothing links the Chaos Crystal Cavern to Kralkatorrik. And if my memory is correct, the crystals there are completely different in appearance to Kralkatorrik’s crystals. Those in the cavern looked more natural – similar to the crystals we see at various artificer stations, in fact – while Kralkatorrik’s are much smoother, and shimmer very similarly to as if they’re clear casings holding purple glowing liquid (same for Jormag’s ice).

I realize it sounds like a bit of a stretch, but not such a huge one, the noxious branded plants in lowland burns attack in a manner akin to the mesmers chaos storm, applying a random condition.
Crystals, while indeed being a very ordered occurrence in nature, form from a saturation or supersaturtion of particles.
I feel that the rising of a dragon, something on par with an immense hurricane, could also be seen as such an over saturation of particles which would result in the formation of crystals. Especially when said Dragon has been referred to as something like a storm.
Basically, my thought is that the crystals regardless of color (the dragon’s blood was green after all) are more a result of the dragon’s coalescing energy, and form on its corrupted minions in the same manner.
I will investigate in game more for other ways to support my idea about the chaos part. This was more as a way to support another thought on here about one of Kralk’s spheres of influence being energy. To me, it seemed relevant and plausible. It is a dragon that corrupts energy, particles and the outward appearance of it’s corruption is crystalline.

Xukavi.4320:

@Konig: I know the whole parallel universe theory was used to explain multiple servers. I was talking more about where the gods originally came from. That world where they brought the humans from. We already know some of the gods had predecessors if not all of them. It could be these predecessors are the ones that took the power orinally and the power was passed down generations along with the knowledge of how to transfer this power.

And what I was saying was that while multiple Tyrias exist – which your theory holds upon – they all have the same most important individuals and events.

So if Dwayna rose to power in one Tyria… Dwayna rose to power in all Tyrias.

Your theory was “Dwayna and co. come from Tyria A and when Tyria A was dying traveled to Tyria B, where they did not exist.” But by the definition of the multiple world lore we have, this cannot be, for if Dwayna and co. came from Tyria A, then they also came from Tyria B; and if Tyria A began to die, then so would Tyria B.

@draxx and konig, in the book Edge of Destiny, Kralk’s lightening was said to be red.

Page 348: “A golden thunderstroke broke across Chief Kronon and his warriors.”

Page 355: “The black cloud was spreading with preternatural speed. In heartbeats, it engulfed the sky. Waves of dark magic riled through the belly of the cloud, and red lightning flickered horribly. In the far west, a strange golden beam tore down from the cloud to rake the horizon.”

So it seems Kralkatorrik sends golden lightning to corrupt (to match his golden fiery breath), and red lightning to damage/destroy; his minions are restricted to purple lightning, which houses corruptive energy and is attracted to metal rods that send Branded into a frenzy (per Verim’s Run NPCs).

What if …. dragon champions are tied to two spheres but they are not necessarily the same spheres as their master?

Shadow of the Dragon – life, shadow
Glint – mind, crystal
Tequatl – water, death

It’s confirmed, Kralk is the rainbow dragon!

An interesting concept but I don’t think so.

While Glint had “unique” telepathy abilities, her magic came in the form of air magic (Aspects, taken from her own crystalline corpse) and crystals (Dragon’s Lair, Crystal Spider, Crystal Guardian, her Crystal-named skills).

The Shadow of the Dragon I don’t think has any tie to shadow – despite its name, there’s nothing dark of it. It’s called Shadow of the Dragon because, originally, it was introduced as being a shadow of the Elder Dragon(s) – before it was revealed to be a champion of Mordy; for the PC, it was thought to be a representation of Zhaitan (which would explain why its head is so similar to Zhaitan’s champions like Tequatl). It also spawns plants with plant attacks, so it is certainly tied to Plant.

As for Tequatl, Zhaitan himself has an affinity for swamps and watery decomposition. To quote the Art of Guild Wars 2: “The breath of the dragons exudes their essence, twisting creatures, landscapes, and all things caught in their exhalation into a mimicry of the dragon’s power. For the undead dragon, Zhaitan, this means his minions and landscapes are images of decay, watery decomposition, undeath, swampy morass, sickness, and pestilence.” So while not part of his two spheres of influence, Zhaitan and his minions do hold some appearance/ability of watery themes.

This also explains the sickened quaggans and wildlife seen in Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen that are affected by but not corrupted by Zhaitan’s influence and corruption.

Edit: Hmmm…

The Map of the All shows small spheres tied to each larger sphere, and has a medium sphere tied to them too. What if “pestilence” and “watery decomposition” and the like are those smaller spheres (for Zhaitan), while the larger spheres are Death and Shadow? Minor “spheres of influence” if you would.

There is the unresolved question however of why the Sylvari PC fights the Shadow of the Dragon in the dream and this turns into a Wyld Hunt to kill Zaitan. If the Shadow of the Dragon shares something with both Mordremoth and Zaitan then this question has the beginning of answer.

I think the different spectrum in Edge of Destiny clears it in Kralkatorrik’s case – that’s lightning, or at least not mesmer psuedo-lightning. (It is still a bit weird, though – I would expect purple lightning to be much more dangerous than red if there isn’t a magical spectrum effect going on, so why does Kralkatorrik get red and the minions purple rather than the other way around?)

I would point out, though, for the record that Guild Wars 2 does seem to follow the ‘magical energy can be grounded and conducted in a similar manner to electricity’ trope.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So both Elementalists/Rangers, and Necromancers, are green. That was the plot hole I was trying to point out.

They’re very different greens, though. The necromancer colour is a fairly deep green, while the ranger/elementalist colour is, IMO, more yellow with a tint of green than an actual green. If we were to assign them frequencies, there’d probably be about as much distinction in frequency between the ranger/arcane colour and the necromancer colour as between necromancers and the cyan of guardians.

Excepting Viper Strike, of course, which is greener than the other ranger effects, but again, that’s probably because it’s related to poison, and poison is associated with green.

Stooperdale.3560:

There is the unresolved question however of why the Sylvari PC fights the Shadow of the Dragon in the dream and this turns into a Wyld Hunt to kill Zaitan. If the Shadow of the Dragon shares something with both Mordremoth and Zaitan then this question has the beginning of answer.

At the end of The World Summit, if you’re a sylvari player you tell Trahearne you feel the call of a Wyld Hunt again – to kill Mordremoth.

It seems that the PC’s Wyld Hunt wasn’t “kill Zhaitan” but “kill the Elder Dragons as they actively invade” (only Zhaitan was actively spreading; Jormag was second most spreading, but this seems to be more the work of the Sons of Svanir rather than Jormag, so the Wyld Hunt wouldn’t trigger on Jormag, apparently).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It seems that the PC’s Wyld Hunt wasn’t “kill Zhaitan” but “kill the Elder Dragons as they actively invade” (only Zhaitan was actively spreading; Jormag was second most spreading, but this seems to be more the work of the Sons of Svanir rather than Jormag, so the Wyld Hunt wouldn’t trigger on Jormag, apparently).

Personally, I hope that isn’t the answer since it is not what we are shown in the Personal Story.

Stooperdale.3560:

Personally, I hope that isn’t the answer since it is not what we are shown in the Personal Story.

There are known cases of sylvari gaining new Wyld Hunts as well. So the one to kill Mordremoth can just as much be a new Wyld Hunt as it can be the old one (to kill Zhaitan) reactivating and spreading to include Mordremoth.

In the Personal Story, all we have is a Secondborn’s immediate belief that the dragon – with no context – was Zhaitan. And the Pale Tree further suspecting it to be Zhaitan. Neither are certain it is the Wyld Hunt, but suspect it is – and when Zhaitan’s beaten, just like Caithe, your Wyld Hunt feels fulfilled… until The World Summit.

The Wild Hunt of the sylvari PC didn’t complete on killing Zhaitan – it was Mordremoth all along. It was simply a big misunderstanding.

My point would be that you cannot ‘misunderstand’ the purpose of the Wyld Hunt in that fashion. Wyld Hunts are meant to be a reason for living and not some quest to pick up 12 helmets from dead orcs. When Caithe says that both Wyld Hunts are finished then the player character should know, absolutely, within the heart, that is true. Trahearne has just told the player what his completed Wyld Hunt feels like too so there should be no doubt.

Anyway that’s my personal opinion and it may be that I’m going to be disappointed. Lets get back on topic.

Stooperdale.3560:

My point would be that you cannot ‘misunderstand’ the purpose of the Wyld Hunt in that fashion. Wyld Hunts are meant to be a reason for living and not some quest to pick up 12 helmets from dead orcs. When Caithe says that both Wyld Hunts are finished then the player character should know, absolutely, within the heart, that is true. Trahearne has just told the player what his completed Wyld Hunt feels like too so there should be no doubt.

Anyway that’s my personal opinion and it may be that I’m going to be disappointed. Lets get back on topic.

Trahearne: It is the same one. You helped to destroy Zhaitan, but that did not complete your wyld hunt. The next phase is beginning.

The World Summit

Tuomir.1830:

Trahearne: It is the same one. You helped to destroy Zhaitan, but that did not complete your wyld hunt. The next phase is beginning.

The World Summit

How does he know that? Why can’t our character realize a momentous change in destiny without being told by Trahearne? To me that is still bad story telling even if that is how the story continues. As I said, I was prepared to be disappointed.

Now of the branded seem to use any abilities that seem related to chaos magic. I could be wrong, but I can’t see any examples of them causing confusion, or daze, or similar effects.

Most of their attacks seem to be direct physical attacks, with some bleeding and cripple.

Stooperdale.3560:

My point would be that you cannot ‘misunderstand’ the purpose of the Wyld Hunt in that fashion. Wyld Hunts are meant to be a reason for living and not some quest to pick up 12 helmets from dead orcs. When Caithe says that both Wyld Hunts are finished then the player character should know, absolutely, within the heart, that is true. Trahearne has just told the player what his completed Wyld Hunt feels like too so there should be no doubt.

Anyway that’s my personal opinion and it may be that I’m going to be disappointed. Lets get back on topic.

I do recall an interview in which it was said that sylvari can, indeed, misunderstand the purpose and nature of their Wyld Hunt – and may end up believing that it’s completed, without actually completing it, and believe it so much that they never realize they’re still being called to it.

Stooperdale.3560:

How does he know that? Why can’t our character realize a momentous change in destiny without being told by Trahearne? To me that is still bad story telling even if that is how the story continues. As I said, I was prepared to be disappointed.

Tuomir didn’t quote the whole thing.

The things we see in our Dream have a way of coming around. Your wyld hunt… Do you feel the call yet?
→ I haven’t for some time, but I feel it now. Is this a new one?
It is the same one. You helped to destroy Zhaitan, but that did not complete your wyld hunt. The next phase is beginning.
→The Elder Dragons…Mordremoth.

Trahearne didn’t know until the PCs told him they felt their Wyld Hunt again.

I suspect that our Hunt is to take down the dragons that directly threaten the Pale Tree, or by extension the sylvari race as a whole, or perhaps the Dream (while we don’t know how dependent the Dream is on the Pale Tree, her status as its ‘caretaker’ does suggest her absence would, or now, perhaps does, have a deleterious effect). We felt the call towards Zhaitan when we awoke, at which point the risen were actively menacing the borders of the Grove, and after Zhaitan’s defeat, according to the quote above, the call receded until the world summit- not until we learned of Mordremoth, or until he started pushing his expansion (he’d already gotten as far as the Iron Marches the patch before), but until his minions attacked the Grove.

Sorry. I just think the whole PC Wyld Hunt thing had been badly done. In game play terms it has just been Caithe telling us that it is finished, if we bother to talk to her, and Trahearne telling us it has started again, if we bother to talk to him. That’s it. The Wyld Hunt makes no difference to anything whatsoever, seemingly. It should be more important than that. It should be more important than everything!

Shiren.9532:

One of the things that bothers me about the “Tyria is imbalanced without the EDs” theory is simply that I don’t see an imabalance after Zhaitan’s death. Zhaitan was defeated two years ago and aside from Tequatl getting a mechanics update (which is suggested to be lore, but it’s a single thing) and another functional update (increasing the size of some risen models to better communicate their animations) I have seen almost no change in the parts of Tyria which would represent Shadow or Death.

The entire Living Story to date has been about the rise of Mordremoth, the Dragon of Plants, who sits across from Zhaitan in the Alchemy and could be seen as having an opposing sphere.

Maybe it wasn’t a coincidence that the fall of Death was in large part due to Trahearne and Caladbolg (Sylvari champions and magic), or that it was shortly followed by the rise of the Plant dragon? Perhaps dealing with Mordremoth will require champions and artifacts of death (the ghosts of the Foefire, necromancer Marjory and her ghost blade, etc.)

Stooperdale.3560:

Sorry. I just think the whole PC Wyld Hunt thing had been badly done. In game play terms it has just been Caithe telling us that it is finished, if we bother to talk to her, and Trahearne telling us it has started again, if we bother to talk to him. That’s it. The Wyld Hunt makes no difference to anything whatsoever, seemingly. It should be more important than that. It should be more important than everything!

I agree to a point, but I figure it’s part of the narrative balance. The things the players are doing have to make sense for all the races, which means unless some element can be mirrored between five cultures, it has to be pushed back into the dialogue boxes. Just another place where gameplay necessarily limits storytelling.

A sylvari valiant of that specific wyld hunt wouldnt do anything differently than anyone else with whatever motivation to stop the dragons. It might say some things, small dialogue changes, but the goal and the path is the same as champions of any other races.

As for the wyld hunt feeling finished after Zhaitan’s defeat… I mostly considered the wyld hunt as something of an echo of what the sylvari sees in the Dream right before awakening. The urge to do something about that vision. Pretty much like a dream you remember. Then the sylvari saplings get to Caledon and meet risen, first and foremost. Naturally thats the dragon threat they project their dream on. And after living through all that we did to follow that projection, its natural for a feeling of accomplishment to overshadow some annoying idea at the back of your mind that destiny is not yet fulfilled.

Now, why the Pale Tree went on pushing the idea that the PS dream dragon is a symbol of Zhaitan is anybody’s guess. Supposedly she saw no point in tackling a slumbering Mordremoth, and instead pushed her children to deal with the more visible threat at the time, Zhaitan.

perilisk.1874:

Shiren.9532:

One of the things that bothers me about the “Tyria is imbalanced without the EDs” theory is simply that I don’t see an imabalance after Zhaitan’s death. Zhaitan was defeated two years ago and aside from Tequatl getting a mechanics update (which is suggested to be lore, but it’s a single thing) and another functional update (increasing the size of some risen models to better communicate their animations) I have seen almost no change in the parts of Tyria which would represent Shadow or Death.

The entire Living Story to date has been about the rise of Mordremoth, the Dragon of Plants, who sits across from Zhaitan in the Alchemy and could be seen as having an opposing sphere.

Maybe it wasn’t a coincidence that the fall of Death was in large part due to Trahearne and Caladbolg (Sylvari champions and magic), or that it was shortly followed by the rise of the Plant dragon? Perhaps dealing with Mordremoth will require champions and artifacts of death (the ghosts of the Foefire, necromancer Marjory and her ghost blade, etc.)

Indeed. Thats the only reason i can imagine for having that ghost blade arc in the story. Even now it felt a bit like a deus ex machina in the making. I really hope that sword will get some proper background and reasons for why it did what it did.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Xukavi.4320:

@Konig: I know the whole parallel universe theory was used to explain multiple servers. I was talking more about where the gods originally came from. That world where they brought the humans from. We already know some of the gods had predecessors if not all of them. It could be these predecessors are the ones that took the power orinally and the power was passed down generations along with the knowledge of how to transfer this power.

And what I was saying was that while multiple Tyrias exist – which your theory holds upon – they all have the same most important individuals and events.

So if Dwayna rose to power in one Tyria… Dwayna rose to power in all Tyrias.

Your theory was “Dwayna and co. come from Tyria A and when Tyria A was dying traveled to Tyria B, where they did not exist.” But by the definition of the multiple world lore we have, this cannot be, for if Dwayna and co. came from Tyria A, then they also came from Tyria B; and if Tyria A began to die, then so would Tyria B.

Parrallel universe theory also means that universes “closer” to ours (the ones we fight in WvW) are most similar (and indeed have the same large events etc), but universes “further away” are more and more different the further you go. A universe where the Gods don’t exist is entirely possible… it just won’t be a neightbouring universe…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Xukavi.4320:

@Konig: I know the whole parallel universe theory was used to explain multiple servers. I was talking more about where the gods originally came from. That world where they brought the humans from. We already know some of the gods had predecessors if not all of them. It could be these predecessors are the ones that took the power orinally and the power was passed down generations along with the knowledge of how to transfer this power.

And what I was saying was that while multiple Tyrias exist – which your theory holds upon – they all have the same most important individuals and events.

So if Dwayna rose to power in one Tyria… Dwayna rose to power in all Tyrias.

Your theory was “Dwayna and co. come from Tyria A and when Tyria A was dying traveled to Tyria B, where they did not exist.” But by the definition of the multiple world lore we have, this cannot be, for if Dwayna and co. came from Tyria A, then they also came from Tyria B; and if Tyria A began to die, then so would Tyria B.

Ok maybe using the parallel universe idea was a mistake on getting my idea accross.

We have Tyria, a world with Elder Dragons and some races but no humans. We have another world World B, where the humans with the gods existed. Tyria has magic, World B has magic. Both worlds have magic level regulators. Tyria has Elder Dragons, World B could have Elder Dragons of their own or other creatures that serve to regulate the level of magic in the world. What I’m saying is the six gods found a way to defeat their Elder Dragons and contain their power. This technique they used is the gift they gave Kormir to contain Abaddon’s power. World B goes to kitten so gods find a way to travel through the mists to Tyria to evacuate their world. The basis of this theory isn’t that we have parallel universes which are our servers but that there are multiple worlds in the GW Universe with maic and beings like the elder dragons that regulate said magic when it gets too high or too low.

It sounds like you both have roughly the same idea to me, except that Konig’s is a little broader – in that he allows for the possibility that the gods didn’t have preceding Elder Dragons.

That’s what I’m seeing now too. If you replace “the world the gods came from was (a different) Tyria” with simply “the world the gods came from had Elder Dragon like beings” then it’s only a “and the gods could have been those Elder Dragon like beings” away from the same theory.