Guild Wars 2

Since 2007, thanks to The Movement of the World, most folks interested in lore have been more or less believing the Elder Dragons’ last time being awake was around 10,000 BE – the date given to the approximate extinction of the Giganticus Lupicus. This assumption is because ever since said article, the Durmand Priory (note: The Movement of the World was, from a lore standpoint, written by a member of the Durmand Priory) has been leading us all to believe that their last rise was during the Giganticus Lupicus’ extinction.

In going through my alt characters earlier today… well, yesterday now seeing its nearly 2 am, I came across an interesting line in the Durmand Priory personal storyline Bad Blood:

<Character name>: Look at this place! It must be tremendously old. Centuries, even.
Magister Sieran: Older than that. The dwarven civilization lasted for more than two thousand years, and this might be one of their first structures.

As many, if not all, lore delvers know by now, the dwarves were among the five sentient races to face and survive the Elder Dragons during their last rise. If this last rise truly did occur in 10,000 BE, then Sieran’s statement feels grossly out of place. Sieran’s a bit exccentric, but she’s no idiot, so she’d know how old dwarven civilization lasted – and seeing how it ended in 1078 AE, 2,000 years prior would be 922 BE. That’s nearly 9,000 years off from what we’ve been told to be the case by the Priory. So why “two thousand years” and not “ten thousand years” – two letter difference ends up making a huge gap in dates.

Given that the dwarves had tools, organization, and writing back during the last Elder Dragon rise it’s unlikely they didn’t have civilization then. This leads to four likely possibilities in my opinion:

1. Dwarven civilization collapsed after the Elder Dragon fall, but restarted sometime between 1922 BE and 922 BE (reason why I make this range is because from 1922 BE on Sieran would be more likely to say “three (or 4, 5, etc.) thousand years”). This I find unlikely as there’s far too many dwarven records and artifacts surviving from the Elder Dragons’ rise for a “dark age” in dwarven civilization – not impossible, but unlikely.
2. Sieran’s wrong about the date, or it was a typo in development.
3. The Giganticus Lupicus were already extinct during the previous rise of the Elder Dragons, and they in fact were killed of two or more cycles ago.
4. The estimation for the GL’s extinction is wrong. After all, we don’t know the basis for this estimation or who made it.

Right off the bat, I suspect 3 or 4 to be correct. I have other lines of interest to bring up. From the timeline we’re given a very interesting date that’s similarly peculiar with regards to the Elder Dragons’ last rise:

1769 BE The Forgotten arrive in Tyria.

Originally, we were told that the forgotten were brought to the world by the Six Gods. And we were given this date, supposedly in relation to this notion. However, in GW2 we learn that the forgotten were among the five races that fought the Elder Dragons during their last rise. This placed a shadow of doubt on that original claim (and I myself began wondering if it were the other way around given the forgotten’s devoutness to the Six Gods) – but nothing ever stated that the forgotten weren’t brought to Tyria by the Six Gods either.

Given that we’re told dwarven civilization lasted “over 2,000 years” but not “over 3,000 years” and this date so nicely fits within that very same timeframe that the dwarven civilization would have begun, perhaps there’s still truth to the old claim and timeline date.

Of course, this would imply the Six Gods and even humanity were around during the Elder Dragons’ last rise. This both does and does not make sense. If one were to assume the Elder Dragons are limited to and around continental Tyria – that there truly were only six Elder Dragons and they all remained mostly around the main continent, the Six Gods could have came to the world and brought the forgotten and humans there and while the humans were away from the conflict, the forgotten (and possibly the Six Gods though I find it unlikely) were in conflict with the Elder Dragons. If this is so, then it may explain why there’s a Giganticus Lupicus acting as a Temple Guard in Arah if their extinction wasn’t in 10,000 BE but rather closer to ~1,600 BE and the gods were present during this time.

(more next post)

Another peculiarity to me comes from Historian Angelina of the Priory:

“Early pre-imperial era? What? That can’t…oh, I’m sorry. Did you need something?”

“That can’t” … what? For reference (and avoiding the wiki page), she’s researching the Elder Dragons too – obviously in relation to Cantha. The only thing I can think of from “that can’t” is “that can’t be right” given the wording. The interesting bit about this is “Early pre-imperial era” – the only year we have in correlation to this era is 10,000 BE. If that can’t be right, why not? And if it’s not “right” that should finish her interrupted thoughts, what is? The rest of her dialogue, when talking to characters of the Priory, is about the Elder Dragons going through cycles – so as this stands, I can only assume she’s stumbling upon a second previous cycle of the Elder Dragons. That, or a Canthan Elder Dragon.

As things stand given the above lines, I’m inclined to believe the following:

1. Either the Giganticus Lupicus did die around 10,000 BE, but not during the last ED rise; or they died during the last ED rise, which was far more recent than 10,000 BE.
2. The previous ED rise was in about 1,700-780 BE (I cannot fathom it being after the establishment of the Empire of the Dragon, however if their rise was much closer to it than we thought, maybe there’s a reason why its named such).
3. The Six Gods were around for the last ED rise, but most likely didn’t know of Zhaitan’s resting place (after all, Arah was where Glint was freed from her corruption – it would be odd if the forgotten brought her to Zhaitan’s front yard to free her of corruption).
4. This would also explain why while the Six Gods arrived on the world at Arah, humanity thrived in the south – they were taken to away from the Elder Dragons. Though it begs the question of what the Six did in relation to the Elder Dragons if this is so.

This situation also explains how we can find so many records of the Elder Dragons. Sure, they’re hard to find, but what’s being discovered are engraved stones and parchment that’s all still legible – that stuff I find unlikely to last and be readable after 11,000 years (particularly the later) without some sort of protection.

(P.S., why does the message limit have to be so small?)

That’s what I don’t get they say Glint saved the other races when the ED where awake yet zhaitan seemed kind of close to Arah, he doesn’t seem like the kind of dragon to like other things in his territory never mind another dragons champion. Maybe zhaitan was still sleeping when it happened. But then why didn’t Kralkatorik make a bee line for her to save her or kill her and the forgotten. He seemed pretty pissed about it when woke up 5 years ago.

well,1 thing to note is that it was never mentioned all dragons went back to sleep at the same time,ther could’ve been several years inbetween,also note that Glint was supposed to protect her sleeping master,as such it’s quite possible Kralkrattorik and Zhaitan were back asleep when the ritual was preformed,also it’s never said the dragons slept at the place were they were,take kralkrattorik for an example,he’s in the Crystal Desert now when he was clearly sleeping in (now) Blood Legion homelands.

Nothing says Glint’s purpose was to protect Kralkatorrik while he slept.

It says so in the book doesn’t it?

Actually, no. She says that she heard Kralkatorrik’s thoughts, and she says that she feared his awakening, but she also says that she lived in a dragon dominated world and was around before they went to sleep. Its never specified if she was created to defend him while he slept, if that was a task given when he went to sleep, or if she betrayed him before so.

Given the fact she hid the surviving races from the Elder Dragons, its most likely to me that she betrayed Kralkatorrik before he went to sleep. And besides, if she betrayed Kralk while he was asleep, how would he possibly know she did such right as he woke up? It could be that Glint evaded Kralkatorrik long enough to outlast him until his point of slumber, but since she stood and fought when he woke…

Possibly because she had a chance of victory when Kralky had just awoken.

Another possibility is that Glint was able to successfully hide her betrayal from Kralkatorrik, and he only realised after he went into hibernation.

The previous ED rise was in about 1,700-780 BE (I cannot fathom it being after the establishment of the Empire of the Dragon, however if their rise was much closer to it than we thought, maybe there’s a reason why its named such).

I’d never considered that the name ‘Empire of the Dragon’ could be related to a Canthan Elder Dragon – it might imply that it was founded in the wake of a dragon being defeated, or that it was founded atop a dragon’s power as Arah was (pure speculation, of course). To be quite honest, the possibility of an Elder Dragon arising in Cantha and being linked to the origins of that empire (which had become a somewhat oppressive power when last we heard) is the only thing I’ve ever heard that seemed like a good enough reason for ArenaNet to open up Cantha in an expansion.

I’d like to say that Elder Dragon corruption (or very subtle influence) might have been responsible for the Canthan emperor’s crackdown on non-humans and the other harsh responses that led to Cantha closing its borders, but honestly I doubt it. That’s probably just plain old political/ideological tensions, and the result of some challenging times.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Actually, no. She says that she heard Kralkatorrik’s thoughts, and she says that she feared his awakening, but she also says that she lived in a dragon dominated world and was around before they went to sleep. Its never specified if she was created to defend him while he slept, if that was a task given when he went to sleep, or if she betrayed him before so.

Given the fact she hid the surviving races from the Elder Dragons, its most likely to me that she betrayed Kralkatorrik before he went to sleep. And besides, if she betrayed Kralk while he was asleep, how would he possibly know she did such right as he woke up? It could be that Glint evaded Kralkatorrik long enough to outlast him until his point of slumber, but since she stood and fought when he woke…

alright,i might have misunderstood that then.

I’ve actually wondered this for a while, though I held my mouth and just pointed to 10,000 BE because I didn’t really have any evidence. I hardly believe that the humans were around during the dragon’s awakening, although my beliefs are unfounded (other than having no mention of humanity at the time of the last awakening). This would also make the idea of the jotun being around for multiple dragon awakenings much more believable because having an empire lasting maybe 20,000-30,000 years (2-3 awakenings) seems a bit of a stretch, but surviving 2,000-6,000 is a bit more believable.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing says Glint’s purpose was to protect Kralkatorrik while he slept.

Wiki says so second sentence under the spoiler. Just says created to protect her master.

Right – protecting Kralkatorrik is not the same as protecting him while he slept.

on the note of the empire of the dragon, I always just thought that it was probably established in the Year of the Dragon. And with this idea, we could have had the Empire of the Rabbit, which would have been pretty funny, imo.

The Year of the Rat. Empire of the Rat. Long life to Skritt!!!!

Rurik Telmonkin.3648:

on the note of the empire of the dragon, I always just thought that it was probably established in the Year of the Dragon. And with this idea, we could have had the Empire of the Rabbit, which would have been pretty funny, imo.

Well, I dunno about year, but it was established in the Age of the Marmoset. Though I’d like to believe that the first CNY we had in GW1 occured the first spring after Shiro – e.g., 1073 (making 1073 the Year of the Pig); which would mean that the empire wasn’t founded during the Year of the Dragon (and that it was founded on Year of the Pig, no less).

Furthermore, the Celestial Dragon which is venerated during the Year of the Dragon was originally an empress (Tahmu) so I’d doubt she existed before the Empire of the Dragon.

I’ve always wondered, wouldn’t it be possible that the last time the ED’s rose was not in 10.000 BE, but more recent? That their rising in 10.000 BC was their second-last rising?

(If this is not relevant enough, my apologies)

10,000 could be as far out as 4-5 cycles, sadly we don’t really know.

I posted over on Guru2 about the distance between cycles. Given the line from Sieran and the knowledge of the Forgotten, I’d postulate that the previous rise was in 2,000 BE and a former one in 10,000 BE. This incidentally doesn’t contradict old lore and new statements regarding the Giganticus Lupicus – as pointed out over on Guru2, the timelines from the manuals and novels never said the G-Lupe (as some DP NPCs call them) went extinct around 10,000 BE but that they “disappeared” or “last walked” among continental Tyria at that time.

With this, I’d postulate that the Elder Dragons rising occur every 4,000 years (estimatedly of course) and take the span of 300 years for all six to awake (assuming there’s only six and they always take approximately 50 years to wake between each other). Combine this with Thruln the Lost’s dialogue in attempts to weed out the lies from the truth and I get this timeline:

Approx. 10,000 BE Timeframe – oldest known ED rise, Giganticus Lupicus forced out of continental Tyria but still alive – before, during, and/or after is the Age of Giants, where Jotun, G-Lupe, and possibly Ogres and Giants rule the world.
Approx. 6,000 BE Timeframe- second oldest known RD rise; Age of Giants comes to an end, only the jotun civilization remains keeping their own Age of Giants – other known AoG possibilities still live, but their civilizations (mostly) collapsed
Approx. 2,000 BE Timeframe – last ED rise before current; G-Lupe brought to extinction, seers mostly destroyed by mursaat, forgotten come to the world, dwarven civilization begins, mursaat flee the world, kodan suffer through the Great Storm.

Then from there the rest of the timeline. This is of course all poorly supported but does give, imo, likely answers to the course of events. Only question I have is whether the belief that the Six Gods brought the forgotten are true or not. If not true, then the Six Gods and humanity came to the world of Tyria somewhere between 1769 BE and 786 BE. If so, based off of the Orrian History Scrolls I’d imagine the situation was this:

In 1768 BE, Dwayna comes to Tyria looking for a new land for humanity and the Six; she sees the Elder Dragons and brings the forgotten to help combat them – the forgotten bring anti-corruption magic which frees Glint from the ED but there’s too much damage to fight back and win at that point (mursaat having already fled and magic entrapped into the Bloodstone) so they go into hiding. After the Elder Dragons go to sleep, Dwayna brings humanity to the southern continent(s) while the Six purge the Elder Dragon corruption – Balthazar “swept Orr with a cleansing flame” (and likely other lands) to burn the corruption away, then Melandru “made of Orr a green and flowering expanse”. Due to saving them, the dwarves recognized the gods and revered them – though the dwarves limited their reverence to Dwayna and, of course, the Great Dwarf – but added Grenth, the son of Dwayna, after he was born and made a god (oddly, the dwarves have a high population of worshipping Grenth and Dwayna, moreso Dwayna though the Reaper’s Gate temple of Grenth appears to be Dwarven in GW2’s remodeling, as well as that Brotherhood of the Dragon – this possibility explains where those, as well as Thruln’s lines of worshiping the Six, came from).

Though again, there’s very little to support this.

Yeah, I would actually agree with most everything here. Then again, there are very few claims or items of proof to give any claim against this.