Guild Wars 2

Felt like making this thread on observations I’ve made since Silverwastes came about.

1. Ties to the Forgotten
By now, most folks may have noticed a tie in to the Forgotten existing. In the new trailer at the 0:50 mark, there is a design on a wall that has cobras – cobra designs have been used by Forgotten as discussed in this other thread. I have provided it here, see Attachment 1.

Less commonly known, perhaps, is a different wall design in the Silverwastes. I have not been able to find it, personally, but I’ve seen a few redditors posting pictures (annoyingly always cutting out the mini-map >.>). This wall design has the three Ascension glyphs and a 3-headed intangled snake ring design.

Those veterans of Guild Wars may recall the Forgotten structures of the Crystal Desert and the Desolation. Like much of the Silverwastes’ structures, they were made out of what appears to be sandstone. The biggest descreption is the designs being different – but in the Crystal Desert, all we see are pillars (which are in abundance in the Silverwastes), teleporters, and small structures that dig into the ground – never large walls.

North of Camp Resolve, we see a group of bandits excavating some ruins – ruins of the same design as the forts, thus proving that they did not build the forts (or if they did, they copied the architecture).

Forgotten seem like an odd choice for these ruins’ creators. There are stairs, after all, which is odd for a race without legs but a tail. However, there are two things to note about the Forgotten, both can be found in a simple quote of lore, but for completion sake, I shall quote two:

What you need to know about the Forgotten is this: they once acted as wardens to ancient races in Tyria and shepherded their development from primitive to civilized. They served the beings known as the Five Gods, and they fought wars for them. They had a strong connection to Glint, and they left guardians with her for many centuries. During the last dragon cycle, it was the Forgotten who freed Glint from Kralkatorrik’s corruption and control. In gratitude, she hid them from the Elder Dragons until they returned to sleep. If they remain in Tyria, they are elusive at best, and many believe they have gone back to the Mists from which they came—perhaps never to return.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Forgotten_Not_Forgotten

It was almost three thousand years ago that a race of serpents stepped out of the Rift onto the soil of Tyria. Unlike ordinary serpents, these moved upright, used language, and adhered to an elaborate culture. They had been summoned by the old gods, brought to this world to be the custodians. Their task: shepherd the other creatures of the land through this time of transition, while the gods continued to create the world around them.

From the Tarnished Coast in the west to the Bay of Sirens (now called the Sea of Sorrows) in the south, from the far eastern reaches of the Crystal Desert to the Giant’s Basin on the northern coast of Kryta, Tyria flourished under the protection of these mystical creatures. The serpents were the protectors of the land, the keepers of knowledge, the teachers of all things, and during their time the world was in balance.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria

Location is no hindrence for the appearance of Forgotten ruins, as “they were even in Cantha.”: And stairs is not so odd, if they housed other races with them – perhaps races that would find heavily inclined ramps harsher than stairs (there are some harsh inclines in the stairs, such as Indigo Cave).

What’s of particular interest of the Silverwaste ruins, however, are the eagle motifs. See attachments 2 and 3.

2. The Eye of the North

The Eye of the North looms over the land, an imposing structure of indeterminate origin. It is not human, Dwarven, or Asuran in construction, although it resembles the architecture of Arah and other godly sites.

I found this randomly a while back when reading through the magazine, hoping to find the line about the Great Destroyer being an “alarm clock” for Primordus. I did not find what I intended, but this – and other things I never actually read in the magazine – caught my attention.

As many players may now know, the Eye of the North looks little like Arah outright – no circles, and all that – though it does seem a bit familiar to original Arah concept art from Prophecies.

More importantly, however, that caught my eye would be the eagle motifs – as you can see via my attachments and the link just now, the eagle designs are very similar. A shared creator, perhaps?

One thing about the Eye of the North that was long overlooked by players, I just now note, is the similarity between the now-broken (or never completed) pillar in the center of the Eye of the North (most of which can be found in above image), and the Forgotten pillars – even the directions of the eagle motifs and the hooded figures to said pillar.

Another comparison note of the Eye of the North to Arah, is that Orr has a heavy use of eagles and feathers in GW1.

3. “Other Godly Locations”
To pull back to the PC Gamer description, it mentions “Arah and other godly locations” – but what are these locations? The only godly location on Tyria we know of downright is the Hall of Ascension – but that hardly matches the Eye of the North.

But if the Eye of the North is tied to the Forgotten – a thought I don’t think was ever considered before – then this could explain how there’s some similarities between the Eye of the North and other godly locations… After all, the Forgotten defend the Hall of Ascension, were once in Arah, and serve the gods.

And from the Hall of Ascension, I bring forth another appearance, a well-known one: See Attachment.

A “golden location” is the destination of the Master of Peace The golden location of the Pale Tree’s vision. And what other location we know of that was golden? The Hall of Ascension (and Hall of Heroes): a godly location. And here, on our way there, we see designs related to the Forgotten and similar to the Eye of the North.

Perhaps, now, at last, the pieces are falling into place.

I don’t know how it would tie into the theory, but the eagle motif is also common among the Tarnished Coast/Central Transfer Chamber structures in the first game.

Im not entirely clear on what was supposed to be Forgotten architecture and what was elonian/primeval king architecture in the Crystal Desert. Though it would be stupid to associate the Eye of the North with the elonians of course, but what im doubting is the connection between the desert ruins and EotN. The eagle motifs would be convincing to a degree, but if you look it that way it also looks like the Ebon Gates hawks in Ebonhawke.

If the pillars in the desert are of Forgotten origin, who are those hooded humans on their base and why would forgotten depict them? If it would be five people i would say that they might be the 5 true gods, but four humans seems an odd choice for forgotten. Four eagles would be as well.

Unless… the pillars were to depict whichever race the given area belongs to in the ancient peacefull governing of the forgotten. Human motifs for human areas and eagle for… tengu perhaps? I dont know, im just grasping at straws here. Its the only reason i can think of for forgotten pillars depicting humans and hawkes. The rest of the race-specific pillars might have been lost through time.

I also thought that the pillars with hooded humans were of Elonian origin.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I don’t know how it would tie into the theory, but the eagle motif is also common among the Tarnished Coast/Central Transfer Chamber structures in the first game.

Fits well for the theory about it being linked to the Forgotten, I think – we don’t know about the CTC, but they were certainly at the Tarnished Coast.

If I had to guess, I’d guess that the eagle symbol was related to the Seers. We know the Seers and Forgotten were contemporaries, after all, and structures like the EOTN might be part of where they earned the title. The Seers are also the one race out of the elders that we don’t have anything at all we can point to as being confirmed to be their architecture, but a long time ago the hint was dropped that there IS Seer architecture in EOTN, it’s just not positively identified as such.

I ‘ve been looking forward myself for a long time now for some ties to the Forgotten to show up (or heck, for some of the Forgotten themselves to show up) and while I am also torn on the pillars and hooded figures…
…consider that in that very screenshot from the vision, the Shadow of the Dragon /backs away /from the light that envelops Glint’s egg for an unknown reason.

Now THAT could tie to the Forgotten. They do have magic that is immune to corruption and that is certainly something that even a dragon champion wouldn’t approach recklessly.

lakdav.3694:

Im not entirely clear on what was supposed to be Forgotten architecture and what was elonian/primeval king architecture in the Crystal Desert.

Gate of Desolation outpost had Elonian ruins only, while Lair of the Forgotten was Forgotten ruins only in GW1.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I also thought that the pillars with hooded humans were of Elonian origin.

Nope, they’re older than the Elonians.

To quote Matthew Medina on the Ascension runes, which are – along with two additional runes – on those pillars:

“The three Ascension glyphs (along the with others in that “style”) are just ancient pictographs of the three areas you need to unlock to gain access to Augury Rock (Elona Reach, Thirsty River and Dunes of Despair). It would be safe to assume that the same forces who created Augury Rock/The Hall of Ascension created the “key” for unlocking it and the symbols that go with it."

So it’s not 100% certain they’re of Forgotten origin, but they’re our best guess. Whomever made the Ascension trials made those pillars – and it should be noted that the pillars mark the “Prophet’s Path” in the area of the same name – the prophet being Glint, thus the pillars are either Brotherhood or Forgotten there. Or some other, unknown to us still, group that followed Glint. And the Brotherhood doesn’t seem likely.

I have a theory that ties Ascension to the mursaat, whom thus could easily be seen to be what’s depicted on those pillars. But the theory is iffy at best. It revolves around the enchanted armor looking just like tarnished mursaat clothing/armor, and how Ascension seems only tied to the mursaat of all Tyrian races.

draxynnic.3719:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I don’t know how it would tie into the theory, but the eagle motif is also common among the Tarnished Coast/Central Transfer Chamber structures in the first game.

Fits well for the theory about it being linked to the Forgotten, I think – we don’t know about the CTC, but they were certainly at the Tarnished Coast.

I thought of this and compared the Silverwastes ruins to them. They don’t match in the least.

Plus, we already have Rata Pten – pre-Cataclysm asuran ruins.

draxynnic.3719:

If I had to guess, I’d guess that the eagle symbol was related to the Seers. We know the Seers and Forgotten were contemporaries, after all, and structures like the EOTN might be part of where they earned the title. The Seers are also the one race out of the elders that we don’t have anything at all we can point to as being confirmed to be their architecture, but a long time ago the hint was dropped that there IS Seer architecture in EOTN, it’s just not positively identified as such.

Technically, it was “we’ve seen Seer architecture” – not necessarily in Eye of the North, just that we’ve seen it. The way it was worded was very ambiguous too, so it could have meant in GW2, rather than GW1. I had always taken it to mean the Bloodstone given the relevation on it – despite it not really being architecture (unless one looks at the Ring of Fire and claims that is Seer architecture – utilized and renovated by mursaat).

I had actually been thinking of linking the eagles to mursaat given that the mursaat were once compared to carrion birds, but the link is tenuous at best.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I don’t know how it would tie into the theory, but the eagle motif is also common among the Tarnished Coast/Central Transfer Chamber structures in the first game.

I was wondering if it could also be related to Ebonhawk’s eagle too ? Well at the begining I thought it was more a tribute to Ebon Falcon but now that I read this….

In fact I always thought The Eye of the North was a former jotun structure (dunno why).
But could it be that after the Dragons went to sleep the Gods associated with the former races to “watch” their next rise and build some structures for that : CTC, The Eye, Crystal desert ruins (though Kralkatorik was not here, Glint was… and they may have wanted to keep an eye on Abadon too), and now Silverwastes ? They all bear with a common symbol : the eagle.
If this symbol is related to the gods it could be a reason why it appears in the human fortress (but I don’t think we were told eagle was a symbol of the gods…).

Also I have a question about Silverwastes : when we went in Silverwood in the first game we never saw any fort (in the overlaping part). So do you think the ruins were buried under the forest and due to climate changes they are now uncovered or do you think it has been built and abandoned during the 250 years ? I would say the first answer is the one but I’m not sure.

You are on to something here Konig. Me and Frozenwind were discussing this very topic when we were examining the same ruins. The comparison between the eagle fountainheads, and the eye of the north, were not lost on us either.

Further more, the size of the stairs indicates that the structures must have been made by, or for humanoid creatures of a humanoid size. If these were Jotun or Giant structures, the steps would be bigger.

Ranael.6423:

I was wondering if it could also be related to Ebonhawk’s eagle too ? Well at the begining I thought it was more a tribute to Ebon Falcon but now that I read this….

Doubtful. Those walls aren’t even 250 years old, but the things in the Silverwastes are described as ancient – indicating older than GW1. Most of the Silverwastes we see in GW2 aren’t in Silverwood in GW1 as well.

Ranael.6423:

In fact I always thought The Eye of the North was a former jotun structure (dunno why).

That was a theory developed until we actually saw jotun architecture – they don’t even come close.

Ranael.6423:

But could it be that after the Dragons went to sleep the Gods associated with the former races to “watch” their next rise and build some structures for that : CTC, The Eye, Crystal desert ruins (though Kralkatorik was not here, Glint was… and they may have wanted to keep an eye on Abadon too), and now Silverwastes ? They all bear with a common symbol : the eagle.

The CTC doesn’t have eagles, and it was made by the asura – whom didn’t know of the gods until they surfaced.

The desert also doesn’t have eagles – the relation between the desert and the Silverwastes is the materials and, more importantly, the Ascension glyphs.

Ranael.6423:

Also I have a question about Silverwastes : when we went in Silverwood in the first game we never saw any fort (in the overlaping part). So do you think the ruins were buried under the forest and due to climate changes they are now uncovered or do you think it has been built and abandoned during the 250 years ? I would say the first answer is the one but I’m not sure.

Only Amber and Blue would have been in the GW1 area, and at the very edges. But it’s easily plausible that they would be off the GW1 area lore-wise, due to the different scaling of things.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You are on to something here Konig. Me and Frozenwind were discussing this very topic when we were examining the same ruins. The comparison between the eagle fountainheads, and the eye of the north, were not lost on us either.

I talked to him the other day introducing that idea. I wonder if he took it from me? :P

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I talked to him the other day introducing that idea. I wonder if he took it from me? :P

Haha, perhaps. Or maybe that was sooner. I know that he mentioned the Eye of the North right away when we were exploring the Silver Wastes.

But another thing we brought up, was how the ruins do not resemble the shacks that we’ve seen of the Forgotten in Nightfall. We’re not exactly sure what a fortress would look like if it were built by the Forgotten. Could it be possible that the fortresses were built by other humans? Perhaps Margonites? We considered this possibility, of Margonites existing in this part of Tyria in the past. But it’s a big unknown. And we’re just guessing.

Konig, I found the eagle statues before you… remember? :p

I also noticed that in each Living Story installment we have the option to attain an ascended trinket that (could be) tied to the plot, such as the “Forgotten Band” for completing Gates of Maguuma.

On the subject of Eagles we have the “Quetzel Crest” In Entanglement with the snippet "Eteched on the back are the words, “We are not so easily fooled.”

I also had a thought about the Rainbow Phoenix that resided in the Hall of Monuments as to why we had an avian theme, but that is baseless other then the idea of rising from the ashes – But as Konig pointed out it isn’t the typical “fiery” version.

In Echoes of the Past, we have an unusual reward in Caithe’s Blossom, just look what happened in Tangled Paths with her…curious….most curious.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Could it be possible that the fortresses were built by other humans? Perhaps Margonites? We considered this possibility, of Margonites existing in this part of Tyria in the past. But it’s a big unknown. And we’re just guessing.

The Margonites roamed the Unending Ocean and Crystal Seas. The only known land local of their rule was Marga Coast (Marga being akin to Saxon or Anglo in term usage). They were seafarers, why would they be in the middle of a dense forest?

If these are human made, they were druid or White Mantle made given lore.

@Daniel: but how am I to know when your conversation with Mal took place? :P

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically, it was “we’ve seen Seer architecture” – not necessarily in Eye of the North, just that we’ve seen it. The way it was worded was very ambiguous too, so it could have meant in GW2, rather than GW1. I had always taken it to mean the Bloodstone given the relevation on it – despite it not really being architecture (unless one looks at the Ring of Fire and claims that is Seer architecture – utilized and renovated by mursaat).

I’m pretty sure that the discussion in question predated GW2’s release, so they were at least talking about something in GW1. The Bloodstones would count, however.

Now that you mention it, though, apart from the motif there is some similarity between the Ring of Fire architecture and the EOTN. It’s been a while since I’ve looked closely at either, though, so they could have become more similar in my mind than they actually are.

How about comparing the patterns of the Bloodstones (the glowy lines when the chosen were executed in the Wilds mission) and the patterns of this new door? Do you think they are similar? The stylistics of the bloodstone lines look a bit similar to the lines behind the cobra heads on the door, dont they?

lakdav.3694:

How about comparing the patterns of the Bloodstones (the glowy lines when the chosen were executed in the Wilds mission) and the patterns of this new door? Do you think they are similar? The stylistics of the bloodstone lines look a bit similar to the lines behind the cobra heads on the door, dont they?

I was ready to disagree but the design of the column of symbols behind the Cobra is actually similar to the winding designs around the bloodstone. I don’t know if it is intentional, but they certainly look a little similar.

draxynnic.3719:

I’m pretty sure that the discussion in question predated GW2’s release, so they were at least talking about something in GW1. The Bloodstones would count, however.

Now that you mention it, though, apart from the motif there is some similarity between the Ring of Fire architecture and the EOTN. It’s been a while since I’ve looked closely at either, though, so they could have become more similar in my mind than they actually are.

Rather than arguing over our memories, I pulled it up:
http://www.guildmag.com/guildmag-issue-1-qa-with-ree-soesbee/

Some remnants of that civilization, and that ancient time, still remain in modern-day Tyria (both in GW and GW2), but often, those who discover such things do not realize what they have found. There are opportunities in Guild Wars 2 to uncover some of the most ancient lore, including previously untold tidbits about the Seers and their story, but such information will be very difficult to come by.

So yeah, it’s something(s) that shows up in both games.

Which the Bloodstone kind of do (we have Bloodstone Shards/Dust/Bricks via crafting, though this would be pre-Dust/Bricks; then we have the Arah path that has different kinds of shards).

The only unknown structures in both games at GW2’s development would be the Bloodstone and Eye of the North. My mind always proclaimed Bloodstone.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

lakdav.3694:

How about comparing the patterns of the Bloodstones (the glowy lines when the chosen were executed in the Wilds mission) and the patterns of this new door? Do you think they are similar? The stylistics of the bloodstone lines look a bit similar to the lines behind the cobra heads on the door, dont they?

I was ready to disagree but the design of the column of symbols behind the Cobra is actually similar to the winding designs around the bloodstone. I don’t know if it is intentional, but they certainly look a little similar.

They don’t look all that similar to me.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

lakdav.3694:

How about comparing the patterns of the Bloodstones (the glowy lines when the chosen were executed in the Wilds mission) and the patterns of this new door? Do you think they are similar? The stylistics of the bloodstone lines look a bit similar to the lines behind the cobra heads on the door, dont they?

I was ready to disagree but the design of the column of symbols behind the Cobra is actually similar to the winding designs around the bloodstone. I don’t know if it is intentional, but they certainly look a little similar.

They don’t look all that similar to me.

There are no exact matches in the pattern for sure, but the overall design seems a bit familiar to me. How to put it…. Like the difference between fonts, of the same text of the same language. Might not match exactly, but there is enough similarity to say that they might be of the same culture.

If nothing else its the closest match to anything else in the GW universe we have seen, no?

The only similarity I see is golden glow. The rate and sharpness of swirvs differ greatly IMO. And there is too much doubling of lines, whereas that is fully absent from the bloodstrone inscription. Instead, the only known doubling of lines we see in Tyrian languages in that style would be the mursaat runes. Though I’m hesitant to relate the two.

I do not participate a lot in forum discussions, but I read a lot of them, especially here in the lore forums. But this one piqued my interest.
Also, I apologize in advance for mistakes or bad formulations. English is not but my motherlanguage, not even my second language…

So, after reading up on this subject, I just wanted to maybe add my brick to it.

I also noticed those eagle motives. And now that you bring them in perspective with other lore, it remembered me of the eagle in real life mythologies. There could be hints. So nothing new, but perhaps it can help you in your investigations.

The eagle is known to be a messenger of the gods in many cultures. But in American Indians (sorry if it’s not the right formulation…) culture, the eagle is the one to take the spirits of the dead shamans in the invisible realm of the ancients. You find equivalent beliefs in Asian, Syrian and Roman cultures.This remembered me of the mists and the link between mists and Forgotten.

But then, in Christian culture, the eagle represents many aspects. Wisdom, but sometimes also misfortune. But its also depicted as beeing the natural predator of serpents, because they attack them from the heights. This could be nothing, or like I said before a hint. You tried to link the eagle with the Forgotten, perhaps the eagle is some entity the forgotten respected/feared. Perhaps, it just depicts the Gods (wisdom, power, … ) and their superiority over the Forgotten.

You find some equivalent also in celtic cultures, where the eagle is believed to be one of the 5 Anciens of the world. Here too, the eagle’s counterpart is the snake.

In very ancient scandinavian mythologiy, the eagle is the protector of Yggdrasil and represents life and is in opposition to the dragon, who represents dead.

I don’t know if anything could be related, I’m just throwing some ideas here

Nice topic, keep it up ^^

That’s interesting – particularly since the pairing and generally antipathy between eagles (or eagle-like birds, anyway) is even more widespread than that. India has the garuda and naga, Native Americans have thunderbirds and horned serpents. One could say Chinese folklore has a non-adversarial form of it, in the lung and feng huang symbolising marriage – but even that’s symbolic of a pairing between opposites that could also be antagonistic. Meanwhile, you have the central American Quetzalcoatl, which is a blending of avian and serpentine symbology…

Out of curiosity, what were the other three in Celtic mythology? Haven’t come across that one before, or if I have, it’s slipped my mind.

I don’t know much about the eagle in Celtic mythology, what I’ve found generally points to the eagle being less important than some other animals, but I did find an interesting Welsh story involving an eagle. You can read the entire story here, but the interesting part is this:

A hero named Lleu Llaw Gyffes transformed into an eagle when he was struck by a spear. His uncle Gwydion searches for him and eventually finds him perched in an oak tree.

This story is widely believed to be linked to the story of Odin and Yggdrasil, in which Odin relates how he sacrificed himself to himself by hanging from a tree after having stabbed himself. Yggdrasil also has an eagle perched on top, with a hawk sitting between its eyes.

Lleu Llaw Gyffes is also known by other names, namely the Irish Lugh and the Gaulish Lugus, both deities.

Both the oak tree and Yggdrasil are what is known as Axis Mundi, or world pillars. It is the world’s center, the navel of the world (Omphalos) and its point of origin, and links the Heavens and the Earth.

Besides the obvious one, there are some other very interesting similarities between the Pale Tree and Yggdrasil and the various stories related to it, but that’s more off topic than I want to go right now. I might decide to write about it later in a new topic if you find it interesting.

Also, like some other birds, the eagle is often not only seen as a link between life and death, but also as a link between the gods and the humans and a symbol of ascension. Ganymedes was abducted by Zeus, in eagle form, to serve as cupbearer in Olympus. Later, he was placed in the sky as the constellation Aquarius, which is related to Aquila (the Eagle). And Christianity has the Tetramorph, which contains an eagle that represents ascension.

Since we are mentioning eagle/hawk motifs from real life, as a hungarian I’ll just mention the Turul here.

Though i dont know how it is relevent to the topic other than distant connection in inspiration.