Guild Wars 2

From the wiki………http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sylvari

Ronan, a human soldier, found the fist-sized seed of the pale tree in a cave.

It’s hard to say since their origins have changed, they were originally going to be a new elf race in an expansion for the original Guild Wars.

My personal theory however that ties them into Guild Wars 2…..The Pale Tree is a dragon champion. Namely a champion of Mordremoth.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordremoth

I believe that it was Ventari’s influence that caused the Pale Tree to be good instead of the natural evil they were intended to be; I also believe this is the reason that so many Sylvari turn into the nightmare court; because nightmare was their original purpose.

Whenever they get around to adding this elder dragon it is possible that there may be other trees such as the pale tree on another continent giving birth to evil Sylvari. Or perhaps once this elder dragon awakes he will try to turn all the Sylvari into nightmare court.

I disagree. First of all, there has been a lengthy talk bout the pale tree is an ED. This is very close.

I will first try to say some facts.
A: Ronan found the seed in a cave. Though the origin of the cave is unknown it is known that ventari lived in what is now the maguuma wastes and it replaced to the current location of the grove after the seed was found

B: Ventari found the seed before the awakening of the ED’s and planted it round the awakening of the great destroyer.

C: We know there is a second pale tree. though only one sylvari has been ever found thats from the other tree, that one isn’t evil or corrupted. So the tree itself isn’t corrupted either. Several soruces are pointing out the this tree is as well in the maguuma wastes. An area that is unaccesable for us at the moment.

D: though this is tricky…Arenanet has made error’s in timelines in the past. The last time we visited the maguuma jungle in gw1 was after the defeat of the great destroyer and after the war in kryta when Kieran Thackeray (the great great grandad of Logan) was going through to find and fight a member of the white mantle. By then we didn’t go far into the area, but it looked like it wasn’t changing.

I beleive that there is another Pale tree and that Modremoth is trying to corrupt it. Up till now he hasn’t been able to corrupt it, but he is corrupting the silvari that comes down (except one that got away).

The initial status of the pale tree is however that the silvari are good. Like all elder dragon’s modremoth corrupts living beings, he doesn’t create the evil followers out of nothing.

The Maguuma tree was actually planted by our characters in gw1. so we the players actually planted the seed that grew into the first tree.

Uhm no it wasn’t, you seem to missremember that one. When we first saw the pale tree it looked liked it already grew for quite a while. And we also didn’t plant any other tree, the only thing we planted were those vine bridges in the Wilds.

oh yeahhhhhhhhhhh. whoops. brain fart.

Emissary Vex.5690:

My personal theory however that ties them into Guild Wars 2…..The Pale Tree is a dragon champion. Namely a champion of Mordremoth.

Nothing new, you’re just respouting a 3 month old theory. There’s many more threads on this than those linked. I blame Anet’s poor search system on these forums, since they don’t seem to bring up results older than a month. This I believe is the oldest on this forum. It all began with false information – that a skill challenge in Zone Green of Mount Maelstrom had binary that translated to “Pale Tree” (said area is related to Inquest research on the Elder Dragons) – it in fact translates to “end transmission sequence.”

My thoughts can be seen here. I’m not going to bother repeating for a sixth or so thread on this topic.

Emissary Vex.5690:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordremoth

Sigh, that gives a fairly skewed view on the matter (gonna edit it so that it’s a bit less subjective with “sylvari this sylvari that” at the end). Read through my research, please. It gives a more balanced perspective, as well as a lot more information on the subject.

Emissary Vex.5690:

I believe that it was Ventari’s influence that caused the Pale Tree to be good instead of the natural evil they were intended to be; I also believe this is the reason that so many Sylvari turn into the nightmare court; because nightmare was their original purpose.

1) Malyck disproves the last bit.

2) You do realize that the only way known to disconnect a dragon minion from their Elder Dragons’ control is to sever the mental connection, right? Ventari’s influence couldn’t do this.

3) Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, however, dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruption.

Rather, to summarize my thread into its final points, it seems that the Nightmare in the Dream of Dreams – which is not unique to sylvari – is produced by Mordremoth. The Pale Tree is merely a target, not a champion.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

2) You do realize that the only way known to disconnect a dragon minion from their Elder Dragons’ control is to sever the mental connection, right? Ventari’s influence couldn’t do this.

Wrong, Glint is proof that a dragon champion is not under direct control of the dragon and still has free will, thus the Pale Tree can choose to do good.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

3) Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, however, dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruption.

Personally this only strengthens my theory, we only think Sylvari are immune due to the fact that they are immune to corruption from other dragons, but not immune to corruption from the dragon that created them.

Emissary Vex.5690:

Wrong, Glint is proof that a dragon champion is not under direct control of the dragon and still has free will, thus the Pale Tree can choose to do good.

Check Arah Exploarable, Forgotten path. Glint was under control of Kralky and had no “free will” until the forgotten freed her

Emissary Vex.5690:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

3) Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, however, dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruption.

Personally this only strengthens my theory, we only think Sylvari are immune due to the fact that they are immune to corruption from other dragons, but not immune to corruption from the dragon that created them.

Wait, what? Konig said that dragon minions are not immune to the corruption of other dragons. Your reply is that this strengthens your position, because the sylvari are immune to the corruption of other dragons.

“This can’t be a circle, it’s got corners.”
“Exactly! It’s got corners, it must be a circle!”

Son of Elias.5420:

Wait, what? Konig said that dragon minions are not immune to the corruption of other dragons. Your reply is that this strengthens your position, because the sylvari are immune to the corruption of other dragons.

“This can’t be a circle, it’s got corners.”
“Exactly! It’s got corners, it must be a circle!”

Well technically a circle has an infinite amount of corners… but your argument is still correct.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Well technically a circle has an infinite amount of corners… but your argument is still correct.

“This can’t be a circle, it’s got right angles.”
“Exactly! It’s got right angles, it must be a circle!”

Happy?

Son of Elias.5420:

“This can’t be a circle, it’s got right angles.”
“Exactly! It’s got right angles, it must be a circle!”

Happy?

Now, I’m a happy puppy!

Emissary Vex.5690:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

2) You do realize that the only way known to disconnect a dragon minion from their Elder Dragons’ control is to sever the mental connection, right? Ventari’s influence couldn’t do this.

Wrong, Glint is proof that a dragon champion is not under direct control of the dragon and still has free will, thus the Pale Tree can choose to do good.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

3) Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, however, dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruption.

Personally this only strengthens my theory, we only think Sylvari are immune due to the fact that they are immune to corruption from other dragons, but not immune to corruption from the dragon that created them.

1) Glint was freed by the Forgotten using a powerful ritual. Arah explorable, Warden Illyra path. You can find the dialogue for such on the wiki.

2) You do realize that what you said is actually not using what I said as support. Dragon minions are NOT immune. Sylvari ARE immune. Difference.

Wanna know how we know dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruption? Crucible of Eternity. Kudu, Kudu’s Monster (a Risen Giant with powers of destroyers, branded, risen, and icebrood), and Subject Alpha all have four dragons’ corruption in them – the main four.

Mind you, these three cases are forced corruptions (we don’t see wild examples simply because there are no dragon minions close enough to conflict with each other at the moment – and even then, as it stands, destroyers would only be corrupted by Kralkatorrik and possibly Jormag, and Primordus wouldn’t corrupt others’ minions given the Elder Dragons’ preference for corrupting), but the point remains because sylvari cannot be given forced corruptions.

Because the Sylvari are not mere dragon minions, beings simply corrupted by a dragon. They are from the pale tree a being which if is part of a dragon implies why dragons cannot corrupt part of another dragon.

Every being corrupted by a dragon becomes a dragon minion.

That’s like saying risen aren’t Zhaitan’s minions, they are just people who have been corrupted by Zhaitan. Gah can’t you tell the difference? [/sarcasm]

That’s stretching things beyond the realm of disbelief there.

Sylvari aren’t dragon minions, they’re parts of the dragon itself!

That’s what you’re saying in less confusing syntax. But that’s silly to the point where I can’t argue against it because it’s just that far out of the realm of possibility – and similarly, you have nothing to support such a hypothesis. Like saying my heart came directly from the Abrahamic God – you can’t disprove it, but there’s nothing to support such a claim either.

Edit: Oh, and you’re also making the assumption that Elder Dragons can’t corrupt each other.

That’s actually be a pretty kitten cool concept – Kralkatorrik (for example) goes around and battles Primordus and Jormag, corrupting them with his breath making them serve him, thus uniting three of the five remaining Elder Dragons into one single threat…

A bit confused, where is the information that elder dragons can corrupt each other’s minions? Because Alpha can exist?

If that’s the case, well, it only proves that corruptions can coexist in a single being but do not “overwrite” one another. Which means that it would be impossible for one elder dragon to take over another’s minions… he could corrupt them and possibly render them totally insane as the two elder dragons now battle for domination within that creature’s mind, but not take them over.

I never brought up how the outcome turns out – merely that dragon corruption of multiple dragons can co-exist in a single being.

Therefore, sylvari, who die before becoming corrupted, cannot be dragon minions.

So while you nitpick the wording, point remains untouched and unphased.

There is no evidence that Sylvari cannot be corrupted at all. Just because we do not see Sylvari corrupted by, for example, Jormag means nothing – we don’t see any Icebrood Asura either. Or humans or Charr, for that matter.

All we know, is that Zhaitan cannot corrupt the Sylvari. Maybe because Zhaitan corrupts through undeath, which essentially captures the soul in a dead body and twists it to the elder dragon’s will. Since Sylvari do not inhabit their bodies in the same way as other races do (they are always connected to the Dream and thus are only partially present in the world as far as souls go), this could be the reason Zhaitan can’t do anything with them… their bodies die but their souls cannot be trapped in them.

Other elder dragons have different means of corruption. It is highly likely that Nightmare is just another form of dragon corruption… the pattern fits. So there you have it.

There was debate about there being a 6th dragon that had been killed in the first war with the dragons, and if it wasn’t around anymore, but the Pale Trees were it’s lieutenants, then they wouldn’t be under the corruption (hence why the only other sylvari we know of from another Tree wasn’t corrupted or nightmare court-ish). I know the Arah path said the minions needed to be broken out of the dragon’s influence to be free but if there was no dragon to control them anymore…well you get the idea. I do not however thing the Pale Tree(s) are a dragon themselves.

@Gaudrath: You mean that it being constantly and repeatedly stated that sylvari die before corruption can take place isn’t evidence that sylvari cannot be corrupted? Stated both in game and by developers since nearly a year before release? The reason why the Pale Reavers (a group of all sylvari scouts in the Pact) exist?

We’re outright told that all Elder Dragons cannot corrupt sylvari. And have been for a while. This isn’t a questionable matter, buddy boy. The sixth and DSD may be an exception given their lack of influence on the world and lore about them, but icebrood, branded, and destroyers are not.

@Nay: Arah explorable. The risen are still devoted to Zhaitan, despite there being no Zhaitan.

Also, I think if they killed an Elder Dragon in the last cycle, the jotun and dwarves would have kept records of it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Gaudrath: You mean that it being constantly and repeatedly stated that sylvari die before corruption can take place isn’t evidence that sylvari cannot be corrupted? Stated both in game and by developers since nearly a year before release? The reason why the Pale Reavers (a group of all sylvari scouts in the Pact) exist?

We’re outright told that all Elder Dragons cannot corrupt sylvari. And have been for a while. This isn’t a questionable matter, buddy boy. The sixth and DSD may be an exception given their lack of influence on the world and lore about them, but icebrood, branded, and destroyers are not.

Sources. Quotes. You are known to extrapolate quite a bit. All the above you mentioned is in the context of Zhaitan. Not Jormag. Not Kralk. Not Primordus. Nightmare certainly isn’t explained. So please, quit pretending you have the final answer to everything, because you don’t, you are guessing just like the rest of us.

My guess is that Sylvari are already being corrupted en masse. It’s called the Nightmare Court and the turning is just as permanent as dragon corruption. It fits all the patterns. The only thing we don’t know is which Elder Dragon is behind it. We know it isn’t Zhaitan, but it might as well be Mordremoth for all we can tell.

If they are being corrupted they are only in the early stages. I am going to use a reference to Sons of Svanir, because Jormag is the only dragon at the moment who is known to corrupt slowly rather than instantaneously. If you say the Nightmare Court are being corrupted, even the most evil of them are only to the level of the say to say Sons of Svanir. There has been absolutely no proof of mindless zergs (being as all nightmare court seem to keep a personalily) or super powerful champions among the Nightmare Court. At the very least, even the strongest of the Nightmare Courtiers never change in physical appearance, and much of their power can be brought to the level of game mechanics, not so much lore.

That being said, Mordremoth could be a very smart dragon. He realized the component of the Sylvari that makes them “immune” to corruption and because of this instead of corrupting them he twisted them, to align them more to his goals. Of course this is all speculation.

Of course it is, that’s all we can do, speculate. Doesn’t mean it isn’t fun.

I think that Sylvari are just being corrupted a little bit differently than others. Plus, what we do know is that each dragon has his own brand of corruption. Primordus, for example, can create his minions from the rock and lava directly… not interested in corrupting sentient races, he just kills them. Perhaps Bubbles is similar.

So there could be an elder dragon which assaults the mind. It is a fact that once a Sylvari turns to Nightmare, they are forever lost. Sounds like corruption to me, since anyone getting corrupted stays that way until destroyed.

Well we already have a dragon which assaults the mind, Jormag. But I understand what you mean. It almost seems like corrupting the soul when it comes to the nightmare court. Twisting people into doing horrible and unforgivable things, until the point that they break, or die, either way working towards increasing the nightmare.

Narcemus.1348:

Well we already have a dragon which assaults the mind, Jormag. But I understand what you mean. It almost seems like corrupting the soul when it comes to the nightmare court. Twisting people into doing horrible and unforgivable things, until the point that they break, or die, either way working towards increasing the nightmare.

True but all the dragons seem to twist the mind of their followers, like the branded, they are still capable of thought but they’re full of the dragon’s anger and desire to destroy. In Edge of Destiny the book we get to hear the thoughts of an ogre (ettin? idk I forgot and lent someone my book lol) and he was only wanting to fulfill his master’s desire and burned with hatred. The Nightmare corruption works similarly except like you mentioned it seems to leave their thoughts more clear and instead corrupt the soul (which could just be the by-product of the makeup of sylvari themselves), but until we hear more about what the Court thinks their “true purpose” is we can’t speculate much more about the intent of the corruption other than destruction, pain, ect.

You were right, it’s an ogre.

As for what you said, you are right. I should have specified. What I meant is we already have a dragon that uses the mind as his point of entry perhaps? You see Kralkatorrik just breathes down and their bodies and minds are instantaneously transformed, while Jormag creeps into the mind and twists it to his will. Eventually the physical transformation occurs, but this is long after the corruption takes place.

The Pale tree is a frustrating, mysterious and unliked(Personally, by me) character

Although she’s revealed that her “Omnipotence” is essentially just the memories of all the fallen sylvari(Like a hideous Elder-brain consuming dead Mind Flayers in DnD), She always comes off as knowing far too much for any Sylvari’s life experience(at least in feeling) and puts on a feeling that she’s not giving complete answers.

She seems to do this under the excuse that The Dream is a separate entity from her and that she, like her children, are merely following it’s projections(Wyld Hunt). I understand that Gw2 has a somewhat corny/forced theme of Hope+Teamwork=Dead Elder Dragons, but come on… a mysterious dream like force of hope and justice educating an army of plant people against dragons out of sheer goodness? I know that the “Enemies so bad even nature has a bone to pick with them” trope isn’t uncommon in Fantasy games (Ancient Guardians in WoW and the like), but I’m just not buying the benevolencey of the dream.

The dream could not have been a blank slated collective unconscious before the sylvari, unless it was created and educated by something like the Maguuma shamans. So given current idea that it’s an information absorbing entity, Something had to have educated it about the elder dragons in order to get the pale tree to pop out plant babies who would then go on to live lives of anti-Elderdragondom. Now obviously the dream was un-educated about many aspects of the elderdragon and therefore required the firstborn to educate it. So whatever created or formed the dream was not that knowledgeable, but it sure got right to the logical point of learning about it’s enemies.

So the dream pre-sylvari obviously had an instincts of some kind that caused it to take the Elder dragons as a threat. Which brings us back to the pale tree.

I do not believe the Pale Tree and the Dream are separate entities, but that the Dream is essentially the conscious based womb of the Pale Tree that she projects as a separate entity so that her enemies do not target her. It would certainly make her less of a deity in the eyes of her children and instill a sort of god like entity above her that her children would trust, as it seems most mortal races who know about the tree see her as a fallible entity. In other words, it’s safer to act as a cardinal than act as a god.

The Dreams “Role setting” and systematic selection and organization of a goal hints far more that it’s a living being than that of a benevolent consciousness. It’s shown to have had a mission from the beginning which clearly knocks it down a notch into a more personal concept of agenda setting.

In the idea that the pale tree is an Elder Dragon or an Elder Dragons minion, It would make sense to why the pale tree is currently sided with the other mortal races. The Elder Dragons are enemies, and their rivalry is one of the many reasons they haven’t outright produced devastating attacks or genocidal methods in the years that they’ve been active. They seemingly fear each others power and have been slowly focusing on “side projects”. This excludes Zhiatan, who’s power requires mortals as materials more so than others. It is essentially a war between Elderdragons, with mortal materials ripe for the harvesting. In Mormadoths area of the “chess board”, it could be trying to use it’s spawn combined with mortal allies to kill off it’s most prominent Elderdragon rivals so that when it’s competition is destroyed, it can strike.

What i want to know is why do the pale tree have prophetic abilities. I think perhaps the pale tree might have originated from the mist.

I read a post where the poster say Dessa (the fotm asura) do not recognize slyvaris. So it is possible that the existence of slyvaris might not always be there. (or maybe she is from the past). What i am trying to say is our Tyria happens to be a world (out of the multitude parallel worlds) where a extraterrestrial entity happens to take root (by chance or design) and thus enable us to win the elder dragons where normally we wouldn’t. Most worlds doesn’t win . ( maybe the uncategorised fractal is one such world).

The elder dragons are perhaps like anti bodies ( malignant) that can corrupt native life forms but the slyvari are not so they have immunity.

The reason the Pale Tree has prophetic abilities is the Dream of Dreams. As a Sylvari, you move through the events of the invasion of Orr within the dream and this is when you see that Trahearn is bound to be the leader of the Pact, etc, etc… So the real question is why can the Dream (which takes memories and experiences of those that have died) predict the future. My personal belief, the Dream is connected to the Mists.

The pale tree makes it clear that the future is multibranching rather than linear. So it’s foresight is about as useful as a calculated prediction by something immensely intelligent. Since the mists is essentially the equivalent of “Magic” (Serving as Arenas filler explanation for certain things) You could be right. However the Dreams apparent motives show that it’s more than just a memory bank which leads me to doubt it’s separate existence from the pale tree.

The Dream is most likely independent of the Pale Tree. She herself says she doesnt control it but is merely its caretaker.

Further we have examples of creatures unrelated to the Pale Tree who can both access and influence the Dream of Dreams.

It could be the Elderdragons conscousness too.

Whatever it is, It definitely fears the elder dragons and definitely had motives since before it started gather Sylvari memories. So I highly doubt it’s something completely benevolent and untouchable/kill-able by the dragons, let alone mortals.

Gaudrath.6725:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Gaudrath: You mean that it being constantly and repeatedly stated that sylvari die before corruption can take place isn’t evidence that sylvari cannot be corrupted? Stated both in game and by developers since nearly a year before release? The reason why the Pale Reavers (a group of all sylvari scouts in the Pact) exist?

We’re outright told that all Elder Dragons cannot corrupt sylvari. And have been for a while. This isn’t a questionable matter, buddy boy. The sixth and DSD may be an exception given their lack of influence on the world and lore about them, but icebrood, branded, and destroyers are not.

Sources. Quotes. You are known to extrapolate quite a bit. All the above you mentioned is in the context of Zhaitan. Not Jormag. Not Kralk. Not Primordus. Nightmare certainly isn’t explained. So please, quit pretending you have the final answer to everything, because you don’t, you are guessing just like the rest of us.

My guess is that Sylvari are already being corrupted en masse. It’s called the Nightmare Court and the turning is just as permanent as dragon corruption. It fits all the patterns. The only thing we don’t know is which Elder Dragon is behind it. We know it isn’t Zhaitan, but it might as well be Mordremoth for all we can tell.

Do you truly want me to dig through years of interviews just to satate your need to disagree with me? Ever since it was first stated, which was in interviews well before the game released it was stated that they are immune to the dragon*s* corruption – always plural. Always. Meaning more than one, and has never been “immune to Zhaitan’s corruption” – even in game, its also talked about in plural (such as, iirc, the sylvari story step Sharpened Thorns). It’s just used in context of Zhaitan since he’s the one fought in the Personal Story.

I’ll check through interviews that I can, but honestly, you’re telling me to search through hundreds of articles – some of which might not exist anymore. But it is the case. Just because you seek to uphold your beliefs doesn’t mean otherwise.

As to the nature of the Dream of Dreams – I suspect, based on the descriptions of it given during A Light in the Darkness (that it’s made of aether and memories, and that it can foretell the future), I suspect it is somehow related to – if not a part of – the Mists. The Mists connects all times of past, present, and future and is very much aetheric.

Edit: I couldn’t find the interview, but the original wording was along the lines of “instead of being corrupted, the sylvari dies before the corruption can take place” – I specifically recall it being very clear that they die rather than be turned – they can’t just stand in a dragon’s corruptive breath and be perfectly fine. They just die instead of being turned into a minion.

So from that, we can only know that they couldn’t be corrupted by Kralkatorrik and Jormag, possibly Mordremoth as well (possibly only for Mordremoth since he wasn’t revealed to even exist at the time) – after all, Zhaitan only corrupts corpses so you can’t die if you’re already dead (and Primordus/DSD have shown no intention of corrupting living beings, though on the latter it’s more due to lack of information) – and from the game we know that Zhaitan’s included in that immunity.

Radio Isotope.3045:

The Maguuma tree was actually planted by our characters in gw1. so we the players actually planted the seed that grew into the first tree.

lolwut no we didn’t.

Konig, just FYI, unlike everyone else your posts come off as very argumentative, I hope that isn’t your intent.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

after all, Zhaitan only corrupts corpses so you can’t die if you’re already dead (and Primordus/DSD have shown no intention of corrupting living beings, though on the latter it’s more due to lack of information) – and from the game we know that Zhaitan’s included in that immunity.

This statement is not true. The human storyline has a part about Zhaitan corrupting a guard who was not dead but the undead followed him after he was cursed/corrupted.

I’m not sure what DSD stands for but Primordus did corrupt living things, he corrupted the Great Destroyer.

Depends on how you define “very argumentative” – because I am arguing. :P Though the “less rude” term to use would be debating – but hey, same thing.

Also, you should have paid more attention to the storyline – like the charr level 20-30 storyline, Kellach was corrupted indirectly – via artifacts. As I’ve said here (I believe) and many other places, draconic magic can corrupt just about anything. It’s what and how the dragon chooses to corrupt. Zhaitan himself never corrupts living beings, only corpses. Necromancer Rissa – along with the Inquest – utilize Zhaitan’s corrupting energies to corrupt other things, however. In a similar light, the Inquest utilizes the other dragons’ energies to corrupt living beings into destroyers, and forces dragon energies into other dragons’ minions (Kudu’s Monster is a risen giant “embued” with energy from Kralkatorrik, Jormag, and Primordus).

DSD=deep sea dragon; the dragon which woke up in the Unending Ocean. We have little information on it, but the only bit we have says it twists the water – but no indications of it corrupting living beings.

Also, no Primordus has shown no ability to corrupt living beings. You’re probably thinking of the “one of two possibilities” the mentor mentions during the skritt storyline – that it is either a new kind of minion, or that it’s a creature that was pregnant when corrupted. We know it’s not the latter, because the destroyer “eggs” that it lays spawn not only destroyer crablings, but full grown destroyer crabs and even destroyer trolls if I recall correctly. Furthermore, nothing says the Great Destroyer was a living being formerly – it, like everything else we see corrupted by Primordus thus far, could easily be what all of Primordus’ minions are said to be: lava/fire and stone twisted into living beings.

. . . are we still doing this? Has it been a month since the last “Pale Tree is an Elder Dragon Minion” thread? Wow time flies.

Let’s just see what we know so far.

- We know the Pale Tree grew from a seed which was held by the White Mantle.
- We know for some reason that Ventari’s tablet influenced their way of thinking.
- We know the sylvari are immune to becoming Risen, Icebrood, or Branded. (Primordius does not seem to corrupt, but favors destruction instead.)

- We do not know the origins of that seed for certain before the White Mantle had it.
- We do not know how many other seeds there were which reached maturity, only that at least one did and the existence of another is hinted at. (But not explicitly stated.)

This does not mean “The Pale Tree is an elder dragon minion”. It means they’re perhaps one of the last things left in the game for which we really have no complete explanation for.

I belive that Sylvari (Or the seed[s] that became Pale Tree[s]) were some kind of experiment that was left incomplete by an ancient race meant to fight ED’s corruption. I find amusing that people just can’t accept that sylvari are immune to dragon’s corruption and need twisted theories to justify it.

Sylvari are a real menace for the EDs, however they are young and therefore a naive race. I would be very pleased if an ED realized that, Mordremoth for istance.
From various clues, mainly from CoE.
The distribution of dragons on the world alone should make you notice that. North=Jourmag
East(/South)=Kralkatorrik
South=DSD/Zhaitan
Undergound/Centre=Primordius
and West=?)

NC fights everything can menace Sylvari’s “potential freedom” (beliveng themselves superior, because nobody can or should tell them what to do) , so as long as EDs doesn’t attack NC they won’t fight back, and as for my regard, they might even ally with them as long as they’re in their favor.
Mordremoth then might be allied with them by trying to get NC on his side by supporting “brainwashing” kind of methods on them.
What would Mor gain: Wiping out a menace of a race immune to corruption, gaining allies immune other dragon’s corruption.
What would NC gain: Freedom from ethics, becoming an indipendent race with ED’s support against other races.

It’s said that the Nightmare Court are still seeing the Elder Dragons as threat that need to be eliminated – they just disagree with the means and methods to do so, along with the entire sylvari way of life. Or at least, they did initially.

Dispite NC Sylvari having wild hunts similar to the “normal” ones of destroying the ED, their top priority is still to corrupt Pale Tree with nightmare and judging from their mind-sets they even be fine allying with an ED in order to achieve that.
My theory is still far away from even being plausible but the fact alone the Zone Green is related both with NC (Or at least, Husks) and Mordremoth should mean something as it is hardly something made by accident/randomly.

Yes, the Nightmare Court are after "freedom" for sylvari, but it is not without motivations. Its worth remembering that the larger reason for the founding of the Nightmare Court, the reason they found Ventari and the Dream unnecessarily restrictive in the first place, was because it imposed too many rules of morality which would prevent them from effectively fighting the sylvari’s enemies. That very much includes the Elder Dragons. To turn to those enemies for aid in corrupting the tree just so that they’d have a freer reign to fight the enemies that just helped them? That’s a bit convoluted and counter-productive. As much as I dislike the Court, they seem consistent enough internally not to jump through those hoops.

If I’m not mistaken, Caderyn and Faolain are the primary founding members of the Nightmare Court.

Caderyn was ruled by his strong desire for vengeance against the sylvari’s enemies (quite a natural reaction, actually, and one we see a reflection of in Malyck). He chafed against Ventari’s restrictive morality and brought that hatred of Ventari to them.

Faolain, on the other hand, found something in the wilderness which she could not turn away from. The story is a disturbingly close parallel to Jora and Svanir, and we all know what has descended from Svanir’s meeting with a slumbering lieutenant of Jormag. It’s reasonable to assume that a similar thing could have happened between Faolain and Mordremmoth.

Faolain brings this deep almost religious nuttiness to the Court, and its that aspect which causes sylvari left and right to lament the irrevokable nature of the fall to Nightmare. When it was just the angry railings of Caderyn, no one thought him irredeemable. Yet now the idea is so common a truth that no one even questions it anymore.

It all reeks of the way the Elder Dragons’ corruption can’t be rolled back, and this layers over the way the Court worships the Nightmare like the Sons of Svanir worship Dragon. I see no reason to look further than this for an explanation.

Afterall, if Mordremmoth were a dragon which primarily targeted plants in the same way that Zhaitan targets corpses and Primordus targets stone/magma, then zone green already makes perfect sense without any further explanation. There the Inquest studied Mordremoth and brought in plants either to be corrupted or which already had been.

We only recognize it as belonging to the Nightmare Court rather than a dragon because no one in game yet grasps the full nature of the Court’s corruption or that it could be part of something larger. As a player, however, with access to all the facts from around the world, the pieces come together nicely.

The idea the Nightmare Court have been specifically corrupted is an intriguing one, and I’d consider it worth pegging. The whole of sylvari, no. Just the Court? Compelling thought.

However, people have been rescued from the Nightmare Court . . . I don’t think any have been rescued from Jormag, though there is one fellow who seems to have turned away and tried to make amends. With mixed success. Zhaitan only turns corpses completely, and Primordius . . . does NOT seem to corrupt minions.

Gsdfjslakjd tried posting three times and keep getting the same error. Q_Q Anyways…

People who have become Nightmare Courtiers cannot go back. Those rescued are prisoners being tortured/turned but not yet so. This is also seen with icebrood and branded – in Frostgorge Sound (Snow Climb), there’s a heart where you can free kodan from Ice Prisons (said prisons slowly corrupt them, as an event there also shows), and similarly in Iron Marches there’s a heart where you can free Sentinels from Branded Crystals (the heart NPC saying that they corrupt, and sometimes there will be branded creatures – including charr – within them).

It has been my thought for quite some time that Mordremoth is the cause of the Nightmare, so indirectly the Nightmare Court. There’s a lot of implications that the husks are not solely of Nightmare Court origins, and there’s mention of the Nightmare Court being stoppable, but not the Nightmare itself. Furthermore, I believe it was said somewhere that Faolain fell to Nightmare after her visit to Orr with Caithe (when she and Caithe first saw Zhaitan, there was mention of how Faolain embraced the darkness of life seen when she fell to Nightmare while Caithe teetered on the edge) – this would have likely occurred prior to the Nightmare Court’s establishment, making Faolain the first sylvari fallen to Nightmare (but not the founder of the Nightmare Court).

I’m unsure whether the Nightmare Courtiers themselves are corrupted or not, because if they are then Mordremoth is the one and only Elder Dragon able to corrupt sylvari (we know from in-game that Zhaitan can’t – there was an interview near sylvari week a while back which said that instead of being corrupted the sylvari die meaning that Elder Dragons other than Zhaitan can’t corrupt them since Zhaitan only corrupts corpses (what’s dead cannot die)).

Konig, there’s a penitent norn whose face is impossible to see who stands around at the Pact camp near where the Claw of Jormag lands. His dialogue during a Claw attack suggests he was once part of Jormag’s lesser minions.

How far, it’s not known, only that it’s left . . . something . . . behind.

Dispite the fact that I didn’t read your topic earlier, Konig, I had a similar idea about the court, NC Sylvari’s mind does seem to be corrupted but the fact that Sylvari cannot be corrupted (phisically) is a repetitively stated fact (As plants they aren’t living beings like those having bone and flesh, but they aren’t dead either, this paradox might keep them away from the corruption of other EDs). I thought too about NC’s Sylvari being “brainwashed”, since Sylvari are basically.. plants, and Mordremoth being related with the theme of nature… well he might be the only one to “corrupt” a Sylvari, with the Nightmare. Like Zhaitan that can create Risen from corpses Mordremoth can manifest his corruption in the form of Nightmare on plant-like creatures. The intro mission of Sylvari has an unknown dragon made of roots, Pale Tree only -suggests- it could be the wild hunt of defeating Zhaitan, but what if Pale Tree was wrong? What if the shadow of the dragon is actually a Mordremoth’s corruption and not Zhaitan’s champion manifestation?

I did think of this possibility but I never took it seriosly, seeing someone who did actually make so much research into that now makes me feel confident.
Other plants and related creatures (as other Pale Trees) might be corrupted in a similar way, because dispite not having a Dream of Dreams, they have something similar which is a deep bound with the nature that Sylvari -only- have inside the Dream. Ventari’s tablet is actually a strong resolve that allows Sylvari to fight the Nightmare.

Spiders, hounds and other “normal” Sylvari are “tamed” with the use of torture.
My only concern would be why Malyck was considered so much “dangerous”.
My only explanation could be that since he didn’t awake in the Dream, his Pale Tree actually severed the bound with nature, becoming immune to the Mordremoth’s nightmare corruption and therefore, MUST be destroyed.

I think Malyck’s tree not having the teachings of Ventari is more important than it not being connected to the Dream. To the Nightmare Court that would make it a blank canvas, ready and waiting for them to paint their vision upon it. They could try to corrupt it without worry about resistance from Ventari’s teachings. It would be easier to corrupt the tree itself, whereas the Pale Tree’s strength of convictions has the Court attacking it in the round-about fashion of one-sylvari-at-a-time.

@Tobias Trueflight.8350: Inescapable, like I was saying. Though he’s no icebrood – merely a Son of Svanir with very very minor taint. Jormag’s minions are icebrood, the Sons of Svanir merely use his power (which slowly turn them into icebrood, but they themselves are not such).

@Shirou.4862: Plants are living beings, so there’s no paradox. And Kralkatorrik can corrupt plants, as seen with the Dragonbrand, as can Zhaitan as seen with a Sparkfly Fen heart (and some spots in Orr too I think) – whether the other dragons (Jormag, Primordus, and the DSD) can or not is unknown.

Also, it’s actually Caithe which suggests the Shadow of the Dragon is a representation of Zhaitan – and the Pale Tree confirms it to be so. Of course, she could still be wrong, but as the Dream of Dreams’ caretaker, I think she’s more right than wrong about this. What the Pale Tree “believes” to be the case is you facing Zhaitan – since she cannot foresee the future, she couldn’t know that you’d live long enough to attempt the Wyld Hunt in person.

Regarding Malyck – Jenosavel is correct. Malyck’s considered dangerous not because of who or what he is, but because he’s proof there’s a second tree. It’s why knowledge of Malyck and said tree were kept secret by Caithe, Trahearne, and yourself – and why you had to hunt down the Knight of Embers.

Konig, don’t you ever get tired of being wrong all the time.