Guild Wars 2

So as far as I know, wasn’t it the gods that brought the humans to Tyria? There’s an NPC Jotun in Hoelbrak next to the Fang of the Serpent called Thrulnn the Lost (relatively new I guess since I haven’t noticed him before). He has an interesting story about the gods. He says that the gods “once favored the giants, the jotun” and gave them magic and knowledge of magical and mechanical things. Then they took it away bec. they were afraid they’d use it against them. This caused the jotun to get confused and started the fights between the kings. He then says that they took magic away from them totally and handed it in little bits to their favorite races. The next part is what confuses me, when asked about the humans this is what he has to say:

They came on boats from across the great sea and stuck to shores at first then moved inland towards the mountains. They first lived like grawls using primitive magic (fire,earth,water,air) at that time the gods had not noticed them and they were being helped by the Jotun ancestors to survive. He says that afterwards the humans went from tribes to settlements to kingdoms and then the gods betrayed the Jotun.

Also, did we ever know that the Norn were living back in the Age of Giants?

the short answer is you have to take everything that guy says with a grain of salt. some (if not all) parts of it are either heavily modified from the truth or outright false. it is no coincidence he elevates the norn so much, while standing in the middle of Knut’s home

Keep in mind that below Tyria lies the continent Cantha. There are theories that says that human race spread from the Canthan continent. But how they got to Cantha is not yet known if im correct.

Humans coming from boats to continental Tyria is 100% truth. However, it is not the first time they stepped foot on continental Tyria, nor did the Six Gods ignore the humans until they built kingdoms (remember that humanity built the Primeval Dynasty within five years of landing on Elona, which was at the same time they landed on continental Tyria in 205 BE), we know this for a fact because of Canthan history which has knowledge and recollection of the Six Gods (well, Five Gods since all historical records removed Abaddon) since Kaineng Tah’s time which is well over 500 years prior to humanity’s establishment of their four Tyrian and Elonian kingdoms (in order of establishment (best guess – no known dates for Orr’s establishment): Primeval Dynasty (200 BE), Orr (?? BE), Margonites (175 BE (first knowledge of)), Ascalon (100 BE), Kryta (?? BE by King Mazdak, former prince of Orr – re-established in 300 AE)).

Humanity first appeared on continental Tyria at the same time they appeared on the world – brought to the world by Dwayna from another planet through a portal that led them through the Mists. This portal was opened on Arah. For unknown reasons, humanity was removed from Orr and settled in a land suspected to be either south or east of Cantha – where they on “their own” developed and colonized new lands (first known records place human settlers on Shing Jea Island and northeastern Canthan shores what is now Kaineng City; Tyrian scholars such as Ermenred speculated that humanity came from Shing Jea, though we know this to be where Tengu had lived for a long time and they see humans as trespassers so the certainty of this is highly unclear); second showing is in the Echovald Forest (Kurzicks) and Jade Sea (Luxons) – then centuries later in Tyria and Elona as mentioned above.

What homeworld they came from is unknown, however we have moderate to heavy indication that it was a world with little to no magic, and had suffered some sort of calamity which forced them to move to another world. What knowledge we have on this mainly comes from the Orrian History Scrolls in Malchor’s Leap and a response from Angel McCoy.

And as for that hypothetical “homeland continent” – the only indication of what life was like there would be Cliffside Fractal, which is a representation of the earliest times of Tyria (world) as humans know it. Its speculated location comes from An Empire Divided (where we get the settlement history of humanity on Cantha I mentioned above – take note while reading that, it is written from a pre-Nightfall in-game perspective, so knowledge of Margonites is treated as myth by human historians at that point, and Abaddon is unknown to 99.99% of the human population) and an interview with Jeff Grubb in which he says humans could have come north from “somewhere south of Elona or Cantha” (and southeast of Elona, or east of Cantha, is still “somewhere south of Elona (or Cantha)”).

I would also like to note that EVERYTHING that Thruln the Lost says about the history of magic is either outright false or unsupported by anything else. For example: we know that the Seers had taken magic from the jotun when making the Bloodstone, though it is not unknown if the Six Gods ever did something at a later time; it is also known that the reason for the jotun civil war and infighting was out of pride after they had conquered all of their enemies, not a case of confusion from magic taken from them (though such could have added to the problems) – it’s also known that jotun forever lost magic not because it was taken, but because their magic-users and lorekeepers were the first to be killed off (killing them was a “sure” way to eliminate a tribe) so very few had survived. The existence of the Age of Giants – or when such a thing would have taken place – is fully unknown whether to have existed or not.

Gade.2760:

Keep in mind that below Tyria lies the continent Cantha. There are theories that says that human race spread from the Canthan continent. But how they got to Cantha is not yet known if im correct.

Do you mean that humans spread to continental Tyria and Elona from Cantha? If so, then you’d be wrong fully as Cantha did not know of Tyria until quite some time after its establishment – and the cultures, except possibly Margonites from Luxons, differ greatly. It is most likely that the two (or three) groups that settled Tyria/Elona came from the unknown continent that humanity supposedly lived on prior to Cantha.

Well guys I know the short answer would be simply this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about or he’s lying for attention by the norn. Worst case its misinformation on his side. But we should also consider that (in some other dialogue on the wiki I found) he claims to be one of the very last story tellers of his people (possibly the Jotun as he noted their storytellers have been dwindling till one per generation) and claims to have knowledge he wanted to share with the Norn (specifically Knut).

I know the humans come from the south and then settled Tyria, what just really confused me was the part saying that the gods hadn’t noticed the humans til later one in the timeline when they got more developed when it was stated before that the gods were the ones that brought the humans to Tyria in the first place. Also GW1 wiki at least says that the gods created the bloodstone or was that inaccurate ( I remember you brought that up before Konig I just don’t remember the citing).

Does anyone know how long he’s been in game?

The GW1 wiki usually describes the lore as we knew it in GW1, and does not account for new developments from this game. Back in GW1, it was believed that the bloodstone was created by the Gods; due to Arah explorable, we now know that the bloodstone was created by the seers, and the Gods only made the (still substantial) contributions of opening and sundering it.

If by ‘he’ you mean Thruln, he’s been hanging around Hoelbrak since launch. I believe he moves around, though, which may account for your not having seen him.

Guild Wars 1 Wiki

Humans are one of the most widespread and influential species in the world of Tyria. They are spread throughout the world of Tyria, including Cantha, Elona, and the eponymous continent Tyria, though it is implied they live further south than Cantha, which is where they may have originated.

Wherever they originated, humans are not native to the world as they were brought there by the Six Gods. The gods themselves only predate humans by a short period of time.

Humans were brought to Tyria (Continent) and settle in

Cantha in 786 BE, over 500 years before their arrival on the continents of Tyria and Elona.

After the great Canthan nations started prospering the humans expanded into Tyria, Orr, Ascalon, and Elona.

That should answer the rise of humanity and origins for you.

As for magic (forgive me it’s been a while):
I believe Jotun, Norn, and a few other races were gifted the first “Human god/True God” magics. I need to enforce however, that they were not the first MAGICS. There were gods before the True Gods, and there were magics before the True Gods bestowed magic.

Mursaat and Seers are a prime example of this existing, before the “True Gods” intervened in Tyria and brought the humans with them. These two rival races existed WELL before the Human Gods. Over 1,000 years difference! There is also Arachnia “God of Insectoids”. Though Arachnia doesn’t make an appearance, she was datamined and could be arguably considered canon. You can also argue the Elder Dragons are also caretakers of original magic.

Jotun had their magic removed because Abaddon handed out magical knowledge without the other gods permission. This allowed UNLIMITED use of magics. King Doric begged the gods to revert the decision and remove magic. They instead, created the bloodstone which split the magics into their respective schools. This assured that no one would wield power over all magics ever again. This act also started the “Exodus of the Gods”.

Exodus of the Gods was the War that happened between the 4 gods and the 5th true god Abaddon. Abaddon was the god of secrets and water, which caused a huge following within the human sea-traveller populations. He transformed humans into Margonites, which were humans corrupted with pure magical power. Abaddon and his army were so powerful the remaining gods needed to team up in order to seal him within the realm of torment. When this happened the Crystal Sea was turned into the Crystal Desert.

Due to the sudden revert of magical energy the Jotun societies fought among each other. In GW1 (which I’m playing through atm again) in the EOTN campaign there’s a Jotun inside one of the Norn Lodges that comments he’s glad to see the Norn re-forming their society and regain their influence with the gods. In this case being the Spirits of the Wild. A side note about Norn, they were the greatest power of Tyria (continent) until the magics were reverted.

I can explain more if you’d like but I’ve summed up your questions.

TL;DR
Humans not from this world.
Human “Origins” Cantha
Jotun had access to the Great Magics given by Abaddon to the world
The bloodiest and most savage war was raged
King Doric pleaded with the gods to take it away
Gods made the bloodstone and split magic into its separate schools
Jotuns fought against each other still enraged by lack of magic and logic
Abaddon thrown into the Realm of Torment
Norn were NOT around during the age of true giants, but they were after Giganticus’ extinction which is still before the human gods.

Few corrections there, KeyLimPi (yum, by the way):

The true god magics, as you call them, are the seer magics. The seers created the bloodstone to seal away magic, and the Gods later broke that seal, returning magic to the world.

The story that Abaddon handed handed out magic to the races has been completely debunked- a soft retcon, if you will. The latest, that follow-up Konig posted above, says that the idea that magic was given to the races was a human misunderstanding, and in fact what happened is that the gods-all of them, not just Abaddon- were returning magic to the world. The fact that that would mean that the races would be able to use said magic is implied to have been rather beside the point. Also on this topic- Abaddon was the Sixth True God, not fifth.

The jotun you refer to isn’t in GW1, but rather the very same Thruln the Lost referred to above, in GW2. He does say that the norn were very powerful, but rather you believe him or not is up to you.

Ok, first off thank you for the awesome info. Also I had no idea he (yes the Jotun) was in from the start of the game.

Well going by that info, what he says of the humans first coming from the sea is true since they did come from Cantha (that much I knew before hand). It all fits except this part:

“In the beginning, humans lived like grawl. The gods had not yet noticed them. Their magic was primitive: fire, earth, air and water. My jotun ancestors helped them survive.”

When asked what happened next:

“Humans collected on the high plains. Tribes became settlements. Settlements became a kingdom. And that was when the gods noticed them and betrayed the Jotun.”

That just totally doesn’t make sense unless by gods he means the seers but I highly doubt that. Also he states that the Norn and the Jotun were both there in the Age of Giants but he could possibly be referring that after the Giganticus Lupicus were extinct to still be the Age of Giants.

I think he uses “Age of Giants” to refer to the pinnacle of jotun strength.

That line you quote I think is an especial candidate to have been altered to fit his audience, given this line from a pre-release article: “The closest thing that the jotun have to “religion” is their firm, avowed belief that their blood is magical—that it is powerful, and akin to the divine. Each clan of jotun reveres their ancestors and can trace their lineage back to some powerful giant-king of lore. Many of the tales of these giant-kings have taken on the feel and tenor of religious myths, and each clan calls to their legendary blood to empower them, see them through trials, and ensure them victory. While it cannot be said the jotun “worship” their ancestors, they certainly attempt to emulate them through conquest, single-minded self-absorption, and personal pride.”

As to the rest of what he says in there, the idea that they were similar to grawl upon arrival is patently false. As Konig has pointed out in the past, Thruln himself admits humans sailed to Tyria, and shipbuilding is a fairly advanced art, well beyond the capabilities of the grawl. That second line seems to be mostly true- Tyrian humans are said to have lived in tribes before being united under King Doric- but the idea that the gods only noticed the humans after the formation of Ascalon is also likely false, as both charr and human histories say that such was only accomplished with the aid of those gods.

Personally, my take on it is this: Thruln is very desperate to hang on to the idea that the jotun were once great, the continent’s apex race. All of his stories seem to rest on that idea. One of the ways that those storys try to claim credence is by being altered, either by Thruln himself or one of his predecessors (oral tradition, remember), to claim that the only historically verifiable apex race, the humans, somehow owed all that they had to the jotun who came before them, that they would have had nothing but for the greatness of the Age of Giants that came before them.

As for the norn being there with them? Who knows, maybe they were. Modern norn history only seems to stretch back to around GW1, save for a few undated legends like the origins of the moot. All we can say for sure is that both they and the jotun had been in the Far Shiverpeaks for a long time before any record-keeping race came along that way.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

As to the rest of what he says in there, the idea that they were similar to grawl upon arrival is patently false. As Konig has pointed out in the past, Thruln himself admits humans sailed to Tyria, and shipbuilding is a fairly advanced art, well beyond the capabilities of the grawl.

“They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control.”

“We discovered fire”

“Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures.”

From the Guild Wars 1 manual, History of Tyria

It’s human nature to assume the best version of everything. But humanity didn’t even have fire at first. So “sailing” may have been little more than rafts/canoes. They may have been ships built by the gods. Or even divine building instruction, Noah style.

Is it possible that this continent humans came from was the Utopian continent? The continent we would have explored in a campaign prior to Eye of the North (had guildwars 2 not been decided upon by that point).

Dustfinger.9510:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

As to the rest of what he says in there, the idea that they were similar to grawl upon arrival is patently false. As Konig has pointed out in the past, Thruln himself admits humans sailed to Tyria, and shipbuilding is a fairly advanced art, well beyond the capabilities of the grawl.

“They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control.”

“We discovered fire”

“Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures.”

From the Guild Wars 1 manual, History of Tyria

It’s human nature to assume the best version of everything. But humanity didn’t even have fire at first. So “sailing” may have been little more than rafts/canoes. They may have been ships built by the gods. Or even divine building instruction, Noah style.

Except all of those lines came from a source that has been heavily, heavily retconned. Good ol’ Thaddeus has proven to be an even worse source than Thruln. Hell, even at the time of Prophecies that piece had plenty of contradictions; now, it’s a symbol of how wrong humans got history. I wouldn’t trust a single word of it.

@Brother Dulfite It’s possible, provided that that continent wasn’t scrapped with the rest. A whole lot of the Utopia stuff got completely repurposed to be put into EotN, which would nix the chances of it showing up as it was originally conceived.

That said, if the continent is canon, I’d put money on it being Doern’s home.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Except all of those lines came from a source that has been heavily, heavily retconned. Good ol’ Thaddeus has proven to be an even worse source than Thruln. Hell, even at the time of Prophecies that piece had plenty of contradictions; now, it’s a symbol of how wrong humans got history. I wouldn’t trust a single word of it.

The “retcon” was that it wasn’t empirical truth, and that it was humanities interpretation of history. So that doesn’t discredit the entire thing. All it does is relegate the stated history to the same level we relegate any RL cultures stated history. So if we understand that it id from the perspective of humanity then we can glean that humanity was at some point less advanced than they are now.

Even if we throw out that entire historical record, it still brings up a possible way for humanity to be compared to the grawl while still maintaining what we know of humanity to be empirical truth. So that possibility still exists. That means we can’t say that humanity wasn’t primitive and we also can’t assume that humanity “sailing” to continental Tyria was done so in grand,modern and advanced ships. Either way, nothing proves Thruln’s view of humanity at the time to be “patently false”.

Xukavi.4320:

Well guys I know the short answer would be simply this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about or he’s lying for attention by the norn. Worst case its misinformation on his side. But we should also consider that (in some other dialogue on the wiki I found) he claims to be one of the very last story tellers of his people (possibly the Jotun as he noted their storytellers have been dwindling till one per generation) and claims to have knowledge he wanted to share with the Norn (specifically Knut).

Oh, I for one never said to just dismiss his claims outright – but rather that half of his claims outright contradict not only old lore (in which I would normally call said old lore into question instead), but lore found out after his appearance (read: later in the game) as well as developer comments both prior to and post-Thruln’s knowledge being known. With so many contradictions, his un-contradicted/ing knowledge is called into question.

I hold no doubt that he is indeed (among) the last storyteller(s), as our other lore on the jotun’s fall says that their magic users and lore-keepers (historians, teachers, etc.), the latter of which Thruln the Lost is of, were the first to be targetted and thus most went extinct in the earliest days of the jotun infighting.

The reason to call Thruln the Lost into question isn’t because he contradicted old lore nor because it’s just the “easy answer” but because he contradicts new lore too on top of outright facts (lore from the horse’s mouth, so to speak).

Xukavi.4320:

I know the humans come from the south and then settled Tyria, what just really confused me was the part saying that the gods hadn’t noticed the humans til later one in the timeline when they got more developed when it was stated before that the gods were the ones that brought the humans to Tyria in the first place. Also GW1 wiki at least says that the gods created the bloodstone or was that inaccurate ( I remember you brought that up before Konig I just don’t remember the citing).

Does anyone know how long he’s been in game?

As Aaron said, GWW typically describes the lore from the perspective of the first game – only a few places show it as known from GW2 as well. This was a decision (which I disagree with personally) made by the GW1W admins and regular editors.

But as I explained quite fully in my post, Thruln’s statement of the gods not noticing humanity is one of the things that contradicts older, newer, and dev-stated lore. That, if nothing else said by Thruln, is outright confirmed fabrication. Whether he believes it to be truth or not is another tale, so he may not be “lying” per se (semantic argument there) but it isn’t the objective truth of the world.

He’s been in GW2 since release (well, since the beta weekend events).

Well once again, thank you all for the insight on the matter. I honestly love the GW lore, especially since some of it is a mystery which we can only speculate on.

Personally, I’d take Thruln’s account the same way I’d take the humans. As a flawed and rightly fallible persepctive of actual events.

KeyLimPi.9031:

As for magic (forgive me it’s been a while)

There is… a lot wrong with your post KeyLimPi. I’ll just have to go and respond paragraph by paragraph…

KeyLimPi.9031:

I believe Jotun, Norn, and a few other races were gifted the first “Human god/True God” magics. I need to enforce however, that they were not the first MAGICS. There were gods before the True Gods, and there were magics before the True Gods bestowed magic.

There is only two (possibly t hree) types of magic known: Tyrian magic, Divine magic, and possibly “Mists magic” (but that last one is theoretical and another topic). The Six Gods did not gift any new magic, though they are the sole inhibitors of “divine magic” (which in essence is just indestructible magic which makes one a god). Tyrian magic is part of the world’s nature itself and is consumed periodically by the Elder Dragons; the Six Gods did not “gift” magic per se but “released sealed Tyrian magic” – the magic they introduced to the world was not new by any means. They just released what was stored within the Bloodstone.

The norn’s history is fully unknown and all we have for their history prior to Eye of the North is Thruln the Lost’s take, but we have no timeframe for when this “Age of Giants” occurred – if it ever did.

KeyLimPi.9031:

Mursaat and Seers are a prime example of this existing, before the “True Gods” intervened in Tyria and brought the humans with them. These two rival races existed WELL before the Human Gods. Over 1,000 years difference! There is also Arachnia “God of Insectoids”. Though Arachnia doesn’t make an appearance, she was datamined and could be arguably considered canon. You can also argue the Elder Dragons are also caretakers of original magic.

The mursaat and Seers existed together during the last ED rise – along with Giganticus Lupicus, jotun, dwarves, and Forgotten by our knowledge. This was 9,5000 years prior to humanity’s arrival on Cantha. Though there’s indication to argue that the last ED rise was not the one where th Giganticus Lupicus went extinct but was closer to around 2,000 BE (only a mere 1,500 years prior to humanity on Cantha). The time difference between the Six Gods’ arrival on the world and humanity’s arrival on Cantha is fully unknown either way.

Arachnia is, as you said, unconfirmed canon. And it is not “God of Insectoids” but “one of the insectoid gods” – meaning that per the gw.dat there were more gods like Arachnia whom were insectoid in appearance.

The Elder Dragons are not caretakers of magic. They are the herbivore to magic’s plants. They consume magic, not take care of it.

KeyLimPi.9031:

Jotun had their magic removed because Abaddon handed out magical knowledge without the other gods permission. This allowed UNLIMITED use of magics. King Doric begged the gods to revert the decision and remove magic. They instead, created the bloodstone which split the magics into their respective schools. This assured that no one would wield power over all magics ever again. This act also started the “Exodus of the Gods”.

This statement presumes Thruln the Lost is telling the truth, but we simply do not know this.

We IS known is that the Seers had taken all magic in the world not corrupted by the Elder Dragons – and this included that of the jotun. Thruln’s statement may be mixing various histories together, and their loss of magic he refers to could be this time.

Abaddon had permission to gift magic to the world from the Bloodstone – he just did so too freely and the races abused the large amount of magic he gifted. And it wasn’t unlimited exactly, as all magic is finite.

The Six Gods did not create the Bloodstone – the Seers did during the last Elder Dragon rise. The gods’ gift of magic was in fact the release of magic from the Bloodstone, and their reducing magic was sealing magic back into it (or reducing the flow of magic from the Bloodstone – it isn’t clear) and then shattering it.

KeyLimPi.9031:

Exodus of the Gods was the War that happened between the 4 gods and the 5th true god Abaddon. Abaddon was the god of secrets and water, which caused a huge following within the human sea-traveller populations. He transformed humans into Margonites, which were humans corrupted with pure magical power. Abaddon and his army were so powerful the remaining gods needed to team up in order to seal him within the realm of torment. When this happened the Crystal Sea was turned into the Crystal Desert.

Margonites was the name of the human sea-farring nation even before they were transformed. Abaddon did not transform humans into Margonites, but rather he transformed the Margonites from being human to being demonic etheric beings.

KeyLimPi.9031:

Due to the sudden revert of magical energy the Jotun societies fought among each other. In GW1 (which I’m playing through atm again) in the EOTN campaign there’s a Jotun inside one of the Norn Lodges that comments he’s glad to see the Norn re-forming their society and regain their influence with the gods. In this case being the Spirits of the Wild. A side note about Norn, they were the greatest power of Tyria (continent) until the magics were reverted.

This again presumes Thruln the Lost is accurate, which we have no indication that this is true. ALL other history on the jotun downfall instead claims that the jotun began infighting because they had concurred the Shiverpeaks and had no new enemies to fight but were too prideful to leave it at that. The Giant-Kings (leaders of the ancient jotun kingdoms/tribes) couldn’t stop their greed to rule more lands, and thus turned on the other Giant-Kings.

And… what jotun in GW1 is this? Because there was no such jotun in the past. Which lodge? Based on that dialogue if true (GWW holds no mention of such a jotun), then that would mean that the Age of Giants was rather recent, and somewhat truthful.

Xukavi.4320:

Well going by that info, what he says of the humans first coming from the sea is true since they did come from Cantha (that much I knew before hand).

They didn’t come to Tyria/Elona from Cantha. There was too many showing for it to have been Canthans when Canthans hold no knowledge or historical records of this. The Tyrian/Elonian humans came from somewhere else across the Clashing Seas, likely the same place that Canthans came from.

Xukavi.4320:

That just totally doesn’t make sense unless by gods he means the seers but I highly doubt that. Also he states that the Norn and the Jotun were both there in the Age of Giants but he could possibly be referring that after the Giganticus Lupicus were extinct to still be the Age of Giants.

That is – as stated – the inaccuracy on Thruln part. When – and if – the Age of Giants happened is unknown fully. I theorize that it ended with the last ED rise, personally,and the potential fall of ogres, giants, and extinction of the Giganticus Lupicus. That is, that the Age of Giants refers to a time before even the Bloodstone’s making.

But that’s purely theoretical.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

That second line seems to be mostly true- Tyrian humans are said to have lived in tribes before being united under King Doric- but the idea that the gods only noticed the humans after the formation of Ascalon is also likely false, as both charr and human histories say that such was only accomplished with the aid of those gods.

Just to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment, but the first of the three Tyrian kingdoms was, in fact, Orr. King Doric was crowned in Ascalon, but all indications point to humans living in Orr before then – perhaps not as a “kingdom” but nonetheless. It seems that Doric moved his seat of power from Orr to Ascalon at some point – turning settlement into ruling kingdom.

Dustfinger.9510:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

As to the rest of what he says in there, the idea that they were similar to grawl upon arrival is patently false. As Konig has pointed out in the past, Thruln himself admits humans sailed to Tyria, and shipbuilding is a fairly advanced art, well beyond the capabilities of the grawl.

“They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control.”

“We discovered fire”

“Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures.”

From the Guild Wars 1 manual, History of Tyria

It’s human nature to assume the best version of everything. But humanity didn’t even have fire at first. So “sailing” may have been little more than rafts/canoes. They may have been ships built by the gods. Or even divine building instruction, Noah style.

Nearly everything stated in the History of Tyria has been proven to be human fabrication or misunderstanding. I fail to see why the poetic justice that refers to humanity arriving on the world and not humanity arriving on the continent of Tyria could be no more false than anything else there (especially given that we’ve known humanity arrived on continental Tyria via boats since Factions).

You’re still taking the claims of one time, and pointing it as being the claims of another. You’re saying those events refer to their arrival in 205 BE but it infacts refers to the very same thing this line from the Orrian History Scrolls refers to:

“The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world.”

Which was centuries before 205 BE – and likely centuries before 786 BE even (when humanity arrived on Cantha). Either way though, that bit of information is perhaps among the first lines of the History of Tyria to be called into question as accurate. And with more of that document turning into lies or false knowledge, we have even less reason to believe that – let alone over Thruln the Lost’s claims.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nearly everything stated in the History of Tyria has been proven to be human fabrication or misunderstanding. I fail to see why the poetic justice that refers to humanity arriving on the world and not humanity arriving on the continent of Tyria could be no more false than anything else there (especially given that we’ve known humanity arrived on continental Tyria via boats since Factions).

You’re still taking the claims of one time, and pointing it as being the claims of another. You’re saying those events refer to their arrival in 205 BE but it infacts refers to the very same thing this line from the Orrian History Scrolls refers to:

“The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world.”

Which was centuries before 205 BE – and likely centuries before 786 BE even (when humanity arrived on Cantha). Either way though, that bit of information is perhaps among the first lines of the History of Tyria to be called into question as accurate. And with more of that document turning into lies or false knowledge, we have even less reason to believe that – let alone over Thruln the Lost’s claims.

I’m not sure what you’re saying here becasue i can give the same response to this post that I’ve already given above.

Like I said in response to KeyLimPi, I was responding as I went through the thread. :P

But to the response to your response:

That line from the History of Tyria is akin to the Before History sonnets – poetical interpretation of historical events. It is no more believable – even during Prophecies, let alone during Factions – as the story of Adam and Eve. You are true that the entire document is not discredited, but your original statement of taking it as more truthful than Thruln is downright foolhardy if serious – which I doubt it was, given you.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Like I said in response to KeyLimPi, I was responding as I went through the thread. :P

But to the response to your response:

That line from the History of Tyria is akin to the Before History sonnets – poetical interpretation of historical events. It is no more believable – even during Prophecies, let alone during Factions – as the story of Adam and Eve. You are true that the entire document is not discredited, but your original statement of taking it as more truthful than Thruln is downright foolhardy if serious – which I doubt it was, given you.

How do you know that Konig? Where does it say, from a GW1 source(and I mean at least pre-EotN here), that much of the recorded history of Tyria was meant to be taken as myth or legend?

I honestly don’t know, I haven’t researched it. I just don’t remember seeing that line of thinking anywhere. It seems more likely to me GW2 used GW1 lore discrepencies as a case for simply discrediting the parts they wanted to. I could be wrong on that too, but it certainly feels more plausible an option than, say, specifically intending the majority of GW1 historical lore as the imaginated meanderings of an in-game race. You’ve got to prove that was ANet’s intention all along. Otherwise, it is a case of them altering the narrative.

For that particular line? Here’s ONE instance, perhaps the most clear-cut of them all:

“Even in Tyria, we humans have forgotten where we came from…literally. All that is known of the origin of the Tyrian human race is that our species appeared more than 1,200 years ago on the northern continent. Humans settled Cantha even earlier, however, and appear to have done so on multiple occasions during what Canthans call the Late Pre-Imperial Era. Even less is known about the origin of the Luxon and Kurzick peoples, who arrived on the continent after the tribes that would become modern Canthans settled the northwest coast and Shing Jea Island. The humans of Cantha may have actually originated on Shing Jea, though this has never been proven.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

This is the opening paragraph for discussing the human historical timeline in Cantha. The VERY FIRST statement was “humans have forgotten where we came from.”

If that doesn’t say ‘hey, any claims for knowing how we came about isn’t necessarily truth’ I don’t know what would. And this is pre-Factions so it certainly hits your “pre-EotN” requirements.

Historial discrepancies had existed no later than Factions itself, and extrapolated greatly with Nightfall. Some of such discrepancies existed in Prophecies alone even. And I do believe we’ve had this very discussion about ten times with me explaining and citing the very same sources each and every time. I highly suggest you read up on An Empire Divided if you haven’t yet, since I tend to just cite that to counter you and your claims.

I have read it, it’s one of my favorite documents.

You seem to think it’s ok to “throw the baby out with the bathwater” so to speak. So, Ermenred there saying we can’t remember exactly where we come from equates to a lot of things we’ve been led to believe about it is wrong? Everyone agrees there are discrepancies in the old lore, and yeah Proph had a good amount too, but saying those discrepancies gives someone a relative free hand with the narrative is something else entirely. A lack of evidence in one area doesn’t equate to proof of evidence in another.

None of what you just said or posted answers my question though. Was GW1 historical lore meant to viewed as myth or legend by the real-life author?

You’re twisting my words. I didn’t say that Ermenred saying humanity couldn’t recall their origins means a lot of things we’ve been led to believe about it is wrong. I said that because a learned scholar states that it is forgotten that the claims of knowing the origin may not be accurate. There’s a difference in that you claimed I spoke in absolutes, when I did and meant no such thing.

Not once have I stated any source is absolutely false – not without supporting evidence that counter-acts the source’s claims. Thruln, even though he contradicts developer statements and thus is known to be false, I still said may hold some truth between his “lies” (so to speak).

And I fail to see where your “free hand with the narrative” is at all even relevant here. You’re once more trying to derail a thread into your bitter anti-GW2-writing arguments. Stop.

Oh, and to your final statement: I did answer it. But since you clearly didn’t see the answer I’ll try to be more clear cut for you: Other in-game knowledge as well as the writing style of History of Tyria indicates that it is as much of an interpretation of unknowns as any creation myth in our own history. Overall however, it is impossible to fully know without delving into the author’s own mind (thus any claim to say that it wasn’t or that the writers have been changing narrative is absolutely unfounded because you have no clue what their intention was from the get go), but given the writing style, the History of Tyria work can be taken either way – just as one can very easily take the Bible literally or fictionally.

Thanks for the reiteration, it helps a lot. I wasn’t trying to twist your words, I’m sorry if it came off that way.

Hmm, your last paragraph is excellent. I agree that with a lack of forthright knowledge of the author it’s up to the interpretation of the game material itself. The “clues” come from the presentation and style I would say. I came to a different conclusion than you though(obviously lol). Although there definitely is some creation myth ideas involved in the History, there’s also quite a bit of supportive material interlaced throughout the game in the form and approach to writing it.

Both the History of Tyria and Empire Divided were written in 1st-person narrative, with the player character as the intended audience. And yes, it was human-centric, but that’s a given. History of Tyria is more of a broad summary of events leading up to the player’s birth unto the world itself. It’s background information intended to bring the player up to speed on the current situation in Tyria. The game itself fleshes out the nuances of that background somewhat.

Empire Divided is much more in-depth as a prelude, and offers more insight into the writer’s modus operandi. Its detailed 1st-person account of a visit to Cantha by an Ascalonian historian is a bridging mechanic designed to link the two games in terms of narrative. One thing I found particularly interesting is the opening credits:

This text is not a work of fiction, but is based on historical fact as interpreted by the author. Historical facts have been revised based upon new information acquired by the author between 1022 AE and 1072 AE.

The author almost outright implies that the following text should be taken as the facts of the matter as gathered by Ermenred the historian, correct? Or why else even bother with such an opening statement? Obviously, the author wanted to provide us, the players, with an authentic rendering of what he considered the facts of the time. Now if you scroll down farther you get this passage at 1582 CC(1072 AE):

And so we reach the present day. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.

Now I’m not trying to steer the topic away, I know I’ve done that before. I’m merely using this as an example of author intention. But reading that passage, it’s fairly clear that the author(Jess Lebow in this case, with help from others) is making a general intention that Ascalon itself is assumed to weather the storm of the Charr invasion and is on the road to recovery. Let’s not even broach this subject, I’m just using it as an example. But if that’s the case, wouldn’t it be fair to say that the authors of GW2 took the direction of Guild Wars 2 into a direction unintended by the original author? And wouldn’t that also mean we have supportive evidence here that the original Guild Wars narrative was altered?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That line from the History of Tyria is akin to the Before History sonnets – poetical interpretation of historical events. It is no more believable – even during Prophecies, let alone during Factions – as the story of Adam and Eve. You are true that the entire document is not discredited, but your original statement of taking it as more truthful than Thruln is downright foolhardy if serious – which I doubt it was, given you.

I think there is a misunderstanding here somewhere. I never stated that it was more truthful than Thruln. What I did was take one point as truth. Which is not unreasonable given that you agree that the entire document is not discredited. The point that humanity didn’t have fire at some point in time, which I think is something that humanity would reasonably know because it is a reasonable expectation of any race at some point in time. And the idea that they were primitive at some point doesn’t really strike me as an epic tale worthy of Homer :P However, the idea that humanity has always been strong and developed seems more mythological than anything.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Do you mean that humans spread to continental Tyria and Elona from Cantha? If so, then you’d be wrong fully as Cantha did not know of Tyria until quite some time after its establishment – and the cultures, except possibly Margonites from Luxons, differ greatly. It is most likely that the two (or three) groups that settled Tyria/Elona came from the unknown continent that humanity supposedly lived on prior to Cantha.

I was not aware of that and, if you are right, I will admit that my statement is very wrong.

@Obsidian: On tht last bit, simply stating that Ascalon is recovering from the charr conflict does not state that Ascalon is actually doing well – the act of recovering is not “doing better” but “working to survive.” It’d be different if it was recovered, rather than recovering. Semantics in tense, I know, but important in interpretation nonetheless. Besides, I think it’s pretty clear that the new treaties with Krytans was in reference to Prince Rurik’s actions – and no such treaties ever came about with either nation beyond a settlement for those who fled Ascalon. Even with Nightfall there was a total lack of such treaties being mentioned.

Doesn’t help that Ermenred wasn’t exactly in Ascalon at the time of An Empire Divided’s writing from an in-universe perspective (as he was retouring Cantha and then remained in Lion’s Arch after). :P

@Dustfinger: I don’t think anyone has ever stated that “humanity has always been strong and developed” but rather that they have while on Tyria. Personally, I suspect they were likely on par to the Bronze Age when they were brought onto the world – keep in mind that the History of Tyria’s claims make it sound like humans were made rather than brought, which is what other priests claim in Prophecies (that Tyria was the first planet, the gods made humans and placed them on the world, etc.). If they’re newborn race then of course they’d be undeveloped – but if they’re not? Then it’d be odd if they were!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Obsidian: On tht last bit, simply stating that Ascalon is recovering from the charr conflict does not state that Ascalon is actually doing well – the act of recovering is not “doing better” but “working to survive.” It’d be different if it was recovered, rather than recovering. Semantics in tense, I know, but important in interpretation nonetheless. Besides, I think it’s pretty clear that the new treaties with Krytans was in reference to Prince Rurik’s actions – and no such treaties ever came about with either nation beyond a settlement for those who fled Ascalon. Even with Nightfall there was a total lack of such treaties being mentioned.

Doesn’t help that Ermenred wasn’t exactly in Ascalon at the time of An Empire Divided’s writing from an in-universe perspective (as he was retouring Cantha and then remained in Lion’s Arch after). :P

I disagree, Ermenred is most likely writing this after the the Prophecies events took place, I don’t see how this is referring to Rurik’s dealings with the Krytans. He even mentioned that Togo is expecting help to come from a hero “who was instrumental in dealing with the Flameseeker Prophecies.”…meaning, those Prophecies(or the events thereof) are over.

Your “recovering/recovered” thing is a bit weak. I mean, if the player character and Adelbern had defeated the Charr Titans, and then you get this emissary in Cantha talking about his recovering kingdom and new trade routes opening up, why would he not mention the war with the Charr is still going on? Or why would Ascalon even send an emissary to Cantha for historical research if the kingdom was on the brink of destruction? If he somehow didn’t know what was going on back home, yet Togo did and doesn’t mention it in passing to Ermenred? It doesn’t make sense.

Also, his location in LA was a game mechanic thing. LA was the disembark point for Proph characters to go to Cantha…he’s supposed to be there as a bridging npc if you’d read Empire Divided before moving your Proph character to Factions.

Anyway, tired topic, I’ll drop it if you will. :P

On the origin of humans, do you personally think they were birthed in Tyria, or brought here from somewhere else?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Dustfinger: I don’t think anyone has ever stated that “humanity has always been strong and developed” but rather that they have while on Tyria. Personally, I suspect they were likely on par to the Bronze Age when they were brought onto the world – keep in mind that the History of Tyria’s claims make it sound like humans were made rather than brought, which is what other priests claim in Prophecies (that Tyria was the first planet, the gods made humans and placed them on the world, etc.). If they’re newborn race then of course they’d be undeveloped – but if they’re not? Then it’d be odd if they were!

I have seen no empirical evidence either way. The only thing we do have is two races fallible view of history that says that humans weren’t. Now we can point out the fallibility of both of those accounts but proving the possibility of the absence of one end doesn’t prove the existence of the other.

So there is nothing to say that humanity was developed the whole time they were on Tyria, at all. While there is fallible evidence to say that they weren’t. fallible evidence that is agreed upon by two peoples that have historically been at odds with each other. But even you agree that that fallible evidence has some kind of merit.

I would like to point out that jotun’s lost their magic TWICE, first time was during a group effort to combat the elder dragons, that was their choice, and the god’s weren’t even on the world at this point. When the god’s did arrive they released the magic in the bloodstone, this period of chaos that followed could very easily be the period that the Thurln refers to when he says the god’s betray them. Considering we don’t know the political landscape of all of tyria (continent and world) during the time of the giants all the way through to the god’s stripping the magic away again, the jotun may have still had vast kingdoms. also his statement that the god’s ‘cherry picked’ their favourite races when returning the magic in measures, their is nothing saying that isn’t true, if they had returned magic in equal measures to all the races then the chaos wouldn’t have ended, it would have just been less chaotic, the fact that it stabilised during this period with some of the newer races (humans) standing on top, when previously they were on the lower rung of power and the norn had to turn to the spirits of the wild to reclaim some of their lost power seriously suggests the gods did indeed play bias.
Finally, apart from a few bits of historical evidence (which in it self can be considered bias) anet has done a superb job making the historical retelling’s realistic in the way they all have slight truths and falsehoods. Thurlns story may not be backed up by the others, and may be done right contradicted, but history is written by the victors, and the jotun definitely not the victors, neither would their version of events have been passed on to others back when it was fresh in peoples minds because the norn and jotun retreated to isolated areas in the north.

It’s worth noting that the jotun did have spellcasters in GW1 – and, interestingly, few or no elementalists (which may be connected in some manner to the Thruln’s derision of elemental magics) – so either something that we saw in GW1 was retconned, or the total loss of jotun spellcasters is something that happened between the games.

That said, my general interpretation of Thruln’s story is that it’s the end result of centuries of oral history among a culture where a thruln that displeases their chieftain could end up as a thruln without a head. It’d likely only take a handful of object lessons for thrulns to start deciding that it’s more important to tell a story that pleases the chieftains and keep their head than to maintain the integrity of their history. Certainly, Thruln the Lost’s story pinning the blame for the fall of jotun civilisation on betrayal at the hands of what were until fairly recently the prime powers of the world is likely more palatable to the chieftains than the story told by the ancient thruln spirit in one of the norn stories that pins the blame squarely on the chieftains’ ancestors doing exactly what the modern chieftains are doing.