Guild Wars 2

This question is aimed both to community and developers.

I’ve been thinking about the “bad” things in Season 1 and I stopped at or Destiny’s Edge 2.0 – “Destiny’s Oprhans”.

Now I’m certain that proposed things won’t influcence future development of existing NPCs, because the milk is spilt already, but it could help in next creations.

Why are they so stereotypical? Asura has to be the genious, Norn has to be the mindless pile of meat, Charr isn’t charming, Humans are blunt as hammer as always and are pretty gentle ladies.

That’s the one of very, very few things I liked about Scarlet’s start – She was a Sylvari and an Engineer. Not a magican, ranger or another mommy’s child, but at least at start, quite individual, though “overskilled” and quickly ruined as the time went on.

Stereotypes, when sometimes good, are on a long shot very boring, especially when the game has to be quite polite. And we’ve already spent bunch of time with them.

Why Asura cannot be the bloodthirsty brute? Why Norn cannot be the genious, mastermind, spy (http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Sigismund_Dijkstra – Look how this character looks and been crafted by Sapkowski). Why Charr cannot be the charming character of the band, and Human ladies treacherous, uglier, less cute&cuddle, stronger and merciless?

Through the game we’re being fed with all the stereotypes. Why not break them on your companions and make them very different, outsiders, thus “orphans” in other meaning too and quite more interesting because of this ?

I do agree, a lot of characters are stereotypical regarding their race…With 2 exceptions.

Rox, is a Charr who is quite paranoid, uncertain and insecure. Traits that not many Charr have. She is also seems to “feel” a bit more then other Charr, as opposed to the majority of Charr such as Rytlock who seem to lack many emotions, or shut them down, to focus on their duty or job.

Zojja, is insane, quite frankly. All throughout the dungeon storylines, she is constantly talking about brutally murdering Kudu or Eir, sometimes both. She always speaks aggressively, and is actually quite furious compared to most other Asurans who are calm, and take a logical view on the world, as opposed to Zojja’s very opinionated and emotional take. I guess the Berserker stat Ascended gear does deserve to be named after her.

I think it is important for the races of Tyria to have a general style of opinion, morality and interaction, to define them, but I would like to see a bit more variation in personality. and less Sylvari. Every 2nd major character is a Sylvari.

“Stereotypes”

Taimi is not a typical Asura either. She fights against her assigned college, wanting to be in another, if not study all of them (It’s why she was so fascinated by Scarlet, she liked the idea of just studying whatever you wanted).

Actually, I think Taimi breaks the mold primarily with her underlying vulnerability, which is a huge departure from the typical asura outlook that the world is theirs for the taking and just hasn’t noticed it yet.

As far as the stereotypes go- I just don’t see it. Blunt speaking is a charr thing, not human, and we’ve never had a character like Marjory before. For reasons already stated above, Braham and Kasmeer are the only ones who real fit their race’s mold, and in Braham’s case I suspect that the issue is that the writers didn’t go far enough to define his traits as an angsty teen after the Jubilee- something that’s done wonders for his likeability, but for the moment leaves him without a clear identity beyond racial fallbacks. Kasmeer feels pretty typically human, but I’m okay with that- her backstory and character are probably the best defined out of the entire group, and I think it helps that she can be present as a part of the world instead of an aberration conflicting with it, what you call a “stereotype”.

And at the end of the day, as long as they steer clear of becoming cliches, stereotypes are a good thing. They give us a point of reference, a context in which to understand the world, and breaking that can do quite a bit of harm. Scarlet went from a cool villain to a walking plothole in our eyes when she out-asuraed the asura.

The game needs to show the nature of the races within the game. People who play the game a lot might want some variation, but the people who play just a little need to be shown the racial characteristics by the main characters.

Yeah, there is a fine line between ‘stereotypical’ and ‘Ugh, cliche.’

Some people have problems seeing it, others don’t. To me Braham is a typical Norn, though he obviously has come to the “Humans and asura can be just as useful” easier them some of them. (One elder Norn in DR mentions viewing humanity as weak until he lived in or visited DR for a while).

I’d rather have some ‘typical’ or slightly out of the box characters then WAY out of the box characters. As Aaron said, Scarlet fits that mold. she was interesting/cool (as a concept perhaps for most, as a character for some), then kinda went over the top and that was too much for a lot of people.

Stooperdale.3560:

The game needs to show the nature of the races within the game. People who play the game a lot might want some variation, but the people who play just a little need to be shown the racial characteristics by the main characters.

This. The game serves two purposes. To tell a story and to tell lore. When too many characters contradict societal tendencies then the lore of those societal tendencies changes with them.

I actually found the Biconics to be too out of character for their racial lore (well some of them).

Rox to me is the biggest offender. She’s too nice, too cute, she doesn’t have that ruthless Spartan solider vibe to her. Her decision to prioritise a friend over a mission (save Braham over fight Scarlet) seems very out of character for a charr, especially a charr that is supposed to be on the lowest rung of the ladder (despite dealing with one of the race’s greatest champions) and desperate to regain some status and value in her society. She casually talks about gladiums but it feels like she’s talking about someone else, it never feels like it’s her story because everything we see from her tells a different story – personal missions from a Tribune, agency uncharacteristic of a soldier, delegate to a royal birthday to an important diplomatic region etc. They sanded down the rough and aggressive side of the charr to create Rox. When she does growl or get serious, she comes off as a kitten and not a lioness.

Norn are supposed to be legendary and often fiercely independent yet Braham is like a puppy, following others along and coming off as friendly and huggable rather than an intimidating warrior or achiever of great feats. Sure he still has that cliché stupidity so many norn have (which was hard to see after disliking Gullik for the same thing but loving Eir for being so wise and strategic) but he has it without the heroic trade off it brings to other norn. Braham has bravado but he can’t back it up (this comes across to me as too extreme just to be inexperienced youth) and he has the least amount of agency in the group (somewhere close to Kasmeer, a woman with poor life skills and no money) when norn as a race are supposed to have an unusually large amount of agency. They don’t have armies, they have legends. They pave their own path and are encouraged to chase their own legend, yet Braham is tagging along with Rox or being bullied into baby sitting an asuran child. He isn’t comfortable being on his own and doing his own thing, he sulks when Rox is pretending like she might join Rytlock’s warband. It’s cute and some players respond well to that, but it undermines his portrayal as a member of a proud and heroic race. Consider for a second the asuran child, who is not only disabled but is also a minor, has more agency that an adult norn, in fact she ends up removing his in favour of her own.

Kalavier.1097:

“Stereotypes”

Taimi is not a typical Asura either. She fights against her assigned college, wanting to be in another, if not study all of them (It’s why she was so fascinated by Scarlet, she liked the idea of just studying whatever you wanted).

To me that does fit an asura. Sure wanting to study outside an assigned field might be a slight twist, but she still has that self-centred, genius, master race superiority thing going (the slight details don’t break the mould). Taimi fits in with her race’s usual portrayal but they have sanded down all the typical rough edges and added a bow to them. Vulnerability is a core element of the asuran race – it’s why golems are so common place. Their diminutive bodies make them physically less capable, so they rely on their intelligence and ingenuity to overcome this. Taimi epitomises this with her disability (physically less able taken to an extreme) and her use of golemancy to overcome it (asuran intelligence and ingenuity). It’s Taimi’s friendliness and eagerness to spend time with the other Biconics that makes her uncharacteristic of an asura (compare that to Gadd’s contempt for bookahs, Oola’s apathy or Zojja’s disdain). I can’t even remember the last time I heard an asura say bookah.

Kasmeer is about as cliché as a human, female, noble mesmer can be.

I think it’s important to preserve racial identities when writing the world of Tyria, I think there is plenty of room to write characters that still fit a racial identity but aren’t caricatures or constant cliches of it. To me, Eir did this well. Norn weren’t portrayed as particularly smart or wise in EotN or Ghost of Ascalon, but Eir came across as wise, strategic, intelligent, co-operative and empathetic. She still comes across as heroic, strong, capable, independent, reverent and traditional, but she did so with becoming a cliché. She still represents the values and customs of her people, but she has her own identity and background that forms a unique person. Blurring the lines between racial identities homogenises the story and kills off some of the things that made exploring Tyria so interesting.

Shiren.9532:

I actually found the Biconics to be too out of character for their racial lore (well some of them).

Rox to me is the biggest offender. She’s too nice, too cute, she doesn’t have that ruthless Spartan solider vibe to her. Her decision to prioritise a friend over a mission (save Braham over fight Scarlet) seems very out of character for a charr, especially a charr that is supposed to be on the lowest rung of the ladder (despite dealing with one of the race’s greatest champions) and desperate to regain some status and value in her society. She casually talks about gladiums but it feels like she’s talking about someone else, it never feels like it’s her story because everything we see from her tells a different story – personal missions from a Tribune, agency uncharacteristic of a soldier, delegate to a royal birthday to an important diplomatic region etc. They sanded down the rough and aggressive side of the charr to create Rox. When she does growl or get serious, she comes off as a kitten and not a lioness.

Rox lost her entire warband to events out of her control, it’s ENTIRELY realistic that in a situation she CAN control, she chooses to save her friend/warband.

Also, the reason she was sent to the jubilee LITERALLY boils down to “Rytlock hates those functions, and did NOT want to be around Jennah and Logan in the same room/area.” It’s literally the reason she was sent. She was in the room, and he went “Hey, I can pawn this off to her.” The thing is, in her case the whole gladium thing may be lessened among some charr (Like Rytlock) because it was an accident that claimed her warband, nothing she could change or prevent. It’s not like some others where the warband dies in combat and they survive due to things that could be questionable (leaving the fight, etc).

Norn are supposed to be legendary and often fiercely independent yet Braham is like a puppy, following others along and coming off as friendly and huggable rather than an intimidating warrior or achiever of great feats. Sure he still has that cliché stupidity so many norn have (which was hard to see after disliking Gullik for the same thing but loving Eir for being so wise and strategic) but he has it without the heroic trade off it brings to other norn. Braham has bravado but he can’t back it up (this comes across to me as too extreme just to be inexperienced youth) They don’t have armies, they have legends. They pave their own path and are encouraged to chase their own legend, yet Braham is tagging along with Rox or being bullied into baby sitting an asuran child. He isn’t comfortable being on his own and doing his own thing, he sulks when Rox is pretending like she might join Rytlock’s warband.

It’s explicitly stated he DOESN’T have a legend yet. That’s mostly why he’s off adventuring. His love interest ditched him for a merchant because the Merchant HAD traveled the world, and could tell her tales of exotic places. He had not. He’s wandering with Rox because he wants to make his own legend and be ‘free’ of Eir’s.

He’s sad at the idea of Rox leaving because he feels like himself and the others COULD be her ‘warband’. That she doesn’t have to follow Rytlock like a kitten to be accepted or have good friends. She doesn’t HAVE to leave to find what (he believes) she already has right now.

I really don’t understand what you mean by “agency” in this context however.

Kalavier.1097:

I really don’t understand what you mean by “agency” in this context however.

I think they mean that Braham doesn’t show the ability to make his own decisions, that he is rather a minion-type character who just tags along because he told to. That how I understood it anyways, but I’m probably wrong.

Rym.1469:

Why Asura cannot be the bloodthirsty brute? Why Norn cannot be the genious, mastermind, spy (http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Sigismund_Dijkstra – Look how this character looks and been crafted by Sapkowski). Why Charr cannot be the charming character of the band, and Human ladies treacherous, uglier, less cute&cuddle, stronger and merciless?

The irony of course is that the exact opposite of the stereotype is also a stereotype. Or it should be, the number of wizard dwarves and barbarian elves are well staggering.

Argon.1563:

Rox, is a Charr who is quite paranoid, uncertain and insecure. Traits that not many Charr have.

I’ve always felt that the general attitude of most Charr clearly indicate underlying uncertainties and insecurities. Secure people tend to need external self reinforcement less often.

Isn’t the representative of the Priory for the Pact a Norn — and Priory members are researchers and historians and other “brainy” people? And Warmaster Effut, an Asura — who for some reason has a hard time understanding scientific stuff — I forget the instances but she’s like "You take care of your thingymajig and we will provide the muscle?

You have crafty and sneaky Tybalt. Although there are stereotypes, there are also those who stand out. Taimi is one that people have mentioned. Look at Roxy. Instead of being ruthless like most Charr are, she is motherly — caring, doting on Braham, especially after he was injured.

There are a good amount of non-stereotypical characters out there.

Priory has all types. A lot of Norn join it for various reasons like exotic travels and hunting. One Norn in fireheart joined because the Priory has the beast cooks.

As teri says above, you do get some non-stereotypes with Pact and Order members. I was happy to see the asuran Vigil representative didn’t have a clue what the Priory representative was talking about, and even said something along the lines of science talk being mumbo-jumbo. My own warrior asura, who’d always felt a bit of an odd duck in Rata Sum, immediately thought, “I’m home! Vigil it is.”

I’d adore seeing a debonair charr or norn, however.

Kalavier.1097:

Priory has all types. A lot of Norn join it for various reasons like exotic travels and hunting. One Norn in fireheart joined because the Priory has the beast cooks.

They also all apparently do most of their research at the pub.