“To err is human. To blame it on someone else shows management potential.”
Ossuary Or On The Spot Reanimation?
Converting a corpse into a new risen minion appears to require only a high concentration of Zhaitan’s corruption, provided by the presence of a champion, specific artifacts imbued with its power, or possibly just a whole heap of lesser risen together in one place. I would assume the ossuary/corpse arc system is used in the cases a champion/artifact isn’t at the scene- instead of having the artifact go to the corpses, they bring the corpses to the artifacts.
All that said, a whole lot of this is inference, and I really wish the game addressed the subject better.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
I believe its just a easier and much faster and more efficient way of creating undead then Zhaitan to focus on each corpse to corrupt it and make it his minion. Trahearne called it a factory, in others words used to mass produce the minions in a short time frame rather than by each individual corpse. If not that what Aaron said seems like it would be some what accurate of how its done.
Very interesting hypotheses for sure. Thank you both!
“To err is human. To blame it on someone else shows management potential.”
Going off of ALL data there is, which is a lot so I shalt not name them all but good sources beyond Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead being the novels Sea of Sorrows and Edge of Destiny, shows this:
Zhaitan simply needs to send his corruption into a corpse to corrupt it. This is most commonly done via a champion going out on raiding settlements and the like. For example, the Lionguard who fall in battle with Morgus Lethe, or the Krytan guards who fell at Port Noble, or the sailors who fell in the battle against Captain Whiting (EoD, SoS, and SoS respectively), as well as the krait of The Mire Sea during the Apatia storyline, all die and are corrupted on the spot. Zhaitan’s corruption are strong in such cases, due to the presence of a champion in the former three, and unexplained expansions of corruption in the last. Those who die in Orr are like this. In these cases, those who die don’t even hit the floor before they become a risen.
Such situations are even seen without champions in some cases, such as the drake broodmother in Caledon. Still, there is a figure that is capable of spreading corruption.
Those we see in the Ossuary thus must not be those killed by risen, but raided corpses instead. In short, graverobbing or those slain without a heavy concentration of corruption to instantly turn them.
The Ossuary is not the sole source of risen-making, just the primary one for not-on-the-spot corruption.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Come to think of it, I wonder if the wraith in the cave is a champion. Turning the Valiant’s pet but leaving him alone shows a level of spite and independent initiative that is consistent with observed champions (Whiting in particular comes to mind, with his vendetta against Cobiah), and at the end of the event chain in nearby Sleive’s Inlet, it’s suggested that the abomination you kill wasn’t intelligent enough to be the force driving the risen in the region.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Based off of my observations, I classify dragon minions into four categories:
- Grunts: the lowest ones, often mindless of near mindless. They do nothing but swarm enemies and shout only the simplest of things – if say anything at all. The most common of minions. Examples: Jungle Tendrils, Risen Thralls, Destroyer Crabs.
- Lieutenants: sapient-questionable to semi-sapient and low ranked, capable of commanding grunts in low numbers but ability to spread corruption is questionable. In-game, they are often showed as veteran, sometimes champions (maybe elites too). Examples: Veteran Risen Kitah Conjurer, Veteran Destroyer Lieutenant, Veteran Branded Lieutenant.
- Champions: sapient and high ranked, capable of commanding full armies of both grunts and lieutenants, and a strong ability to spread corruption. In-game, they are often showed as champion and legendary (maybe elites too). Examples: Captain Whiting, Dragonspawn, Eye of Zhaitan, Mouth of Zhaitan.
- Dragons: sapience-questionable, highest ranked and strongest of champions, capable of commanding large armies and all lesser ranks. They always appear as dragons. Examples: Glint, Tequatl, Blightghast, Shadow of the Dragon, Claw of Jormag.
I would place the “Risen Corruptor” (iirc that’s the name), though labeled as a champion mechanically, as a Lieutenant with this listing. Though it is possible it is a champion.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
“Corpse Caller”, actually. Just replayed the event, since none of the dialogue is on the wiki. I agree with your classification- some degree of intelligence but of questionable power- with the obvious addendum that in this particular case, it is clearly able to spread corruption.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Based off of my observations, I classify dragon minions into four categories:
- Grunts: the lowest ones, often mindless of near mindless. They do nothing but swarm enemies and shout only the simplest of things – if say anything at all. The most common of minions. Examples: Jungle Tendrils, Risen Thralls, Destroyer Crabs.
- Lieutenants: sapient-questionable to semi-sapient and low ranked, capable of commanding grunts in low numbers but ability to spread corruption is questionable. In-game, they are often showed as veteran, sometimes champions (maybe elites too). Examples: Veteran Risen Kitah Conjurer, Veteran Destroyer Lieutenant, Veteran Branded Lieutenant.
- Champions: sapient and high ranked, capable of commanding full armies of both grunts and lieutenants, and a strong ability to spread corruption. In-game, they are often showed as champion and legendary (maybe elites too). Examples: Captain Whiting, Dragonspawn, Eye of Zhaitan, Mouth of Zhaitan.
- Dragons: sapience-questionable, highest ranked and strongest of champions, capable of commanding large armies and all lesser ranks. They always appear as dragons. Examples: Glint, Tequatl, Blightghast, Shadow of the Dragon, Claw of Jormag.
I would place the “Risen Corruptor” (iirc that’s the name), though labeled as a champion mechanically, as a Lieutenant with this listing. Though it is possible it is a champion.
The dragons are mostly the strongest weapon force of Zhaitan rather than commanders.
Dragonspawn obviously is more important than the Claws to Jormag. Actually different dragons use different commanding structure.
Primordus-Hive structure, one of a few champions create and command rest of the destroyers drones. Even the champions don’t seem to possess too much intelligence, just carry its master’s order.
Jormag-Not sure about Drakkar. A few Claws to spread corruption, used to have the Dragonspawn to corrupt and command other beings into Icebrood, it even could directly channel its power. The SoS have free will, they empower the dragon and plot assault, sometimes command Icebrood. Jormag itself also communicate with mortals through its champions and weapons to lure and corrupt them.
Kralkatorrik-Used to have one very intelligent champion to seek the enemy’s mind and create minions, now it just creates a few powerful dragons and they were led(possibly commanded) by the strongest one, the Shatterer. Whoever the strongest becomes the Shatterer.
DSD and Mord-not knowing too much
Zhaitan-It doesn’t have a single most powerful champion. Mostly different ranks of champions with different duty
Eyes-commanders and seekers
Mouth-Eat magic for the dragon
Dragons(and the Maw)-powerful weapons and spread corruptions
Undead Captains-The Navy Commander
The dragons are mostly the strongest weapon force of Zhaitan rather than commanders.
Dragonspawn obviously is more important than the Claws to Jormag. Actually different dragons use different commanding structure.
I disagree greatly!
Blightghast was the commander of the assault on Claw Island, whom had at least four champions beneath him! Those six being Thaddeus Ghostrite (assaulted Lion’s Arch’s northern beach), Lord Zhim Alarjann (assaulted the Durmand Priory), Vizier Ghil Ironghoul (assaulted Vigil Keep), and Admiral Feiste Bakkir (assaulted the Chantry of Secrets).
Glint, when known as Glaust, was Kralkatorrik’s defender.
The Great Destroyer was tasked with heralding Primordus’ return by exterminating all life.
The Claws of Jormag have been assaulting the kodan in their flight south, while the Dragonspawn merely defended a single cave.
Tequatl led the assaults on hylek homelands.
The Shadow of the Dragon led the assault on the Pale Tree.
The dragons, in my observations, are the highest commanders and while a lot are kept near the Elder Dragon and act as defenders, they’re also the commanders of the largest assault forces.
Primordus-Hive structure, one of a few champions create and command rest of the destroyers drones. Even the champions don’t seem to possess too much intelligence, just carry its master’s order.
The Great Destroyer showed to possess enough intelligence to carry the destroyer’s actions across the entirety of the continent. That’s not enough intelligence for you?
Jormag-Not sure about Drakkar. A few Claws to spread corruption, used to have the Dragonspawn to corrupt and command other beings into Icebrood, it even could directly channel its power. The SoS have free will, they empower the dragon and plot assault, sometimes command Icebrood. Jormag itself also communicate with mortals through its champions and weapons to lure and corrupt them.
The Claws aren’t just spreading corruption, they’re assaulting those who flee from Jormag. Hence their names as Claws of Jormag.
The Dragonspawn was merely defending a cave that housed an army, and though he channeled Jormag’s power… so do simple Svanir shamans.
Zhaitan-It doesn’t have a single most powerful champion. Mostly different ranks of champions with different duty
Eyes-commanders and seekers
Mouth-Eat magic for the dragon
Dragons(and the Maw)-powerful weapons and spread corruptions
Undead Captains-The Navy Commander
The Eyes appear as no more commanders as any other champion, but serve as direct eyesight for Zhaitan – hence the giant eye they carry around (those eyes by all appearances are separate from the actual beings).
And while Zhaitan does show specialization of champions, keep in mind we have seen so very few champions of the other Elder Dragons – they could do the same. Like the Destroyer Queen whom by all appearances had the sole role of creating and defending destroyer grunts in a non-volcanic environment. That’s rather specialized.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I disagree greatly!
Blightghast was the commander of the assault on Claw Island, whom had at least four champions beneath him! Those six being Thaddeus Ghostrite (assaulted Lion’s Arch’s northern beach), Lord Zhim Alarjann (assaulted the Durmand Priory), Vizier Ghil Ironghoul (assaulted Vigil Keep), and Admiral Feiste Bakkir (assaulted the Chantry of Secrets).
Glint, when known as Glaust, was Kralkatorrik’s defender.
The Great Destroyer was tasked with heralding Primordus’ return by exterminating all life.
The Claws of Jormag have been assaulting the kodan in their flight south, while the Dragonspawn merely defended a single cave.
Tequatl led the assaults on hylek homelands.
The Shadow of the Dragon led the assault on the Pale Tree.
The dragons, in my observations, are the highest commanders and while a lot are kept near the Elder Dragon and act as defenders, they’re also the commanders of the largest assault forces.
We are talking about Zhaitan. Blightghast didn’t command anything, it just bust in and caused massive destruction in the end of the battle. It appears similar to the Maw in the battle in Seas of Sorrows. Tequatl is similar. They are spreading corruption and serve as the most powerful weapon of the dragon. During the assault of Orr, we also don’t see the dragons commanding the army, they mostly stay in Arah and defend their masters. The Eye of Zhaitan, along with a few high rank Risen are the commanders leading Zhaitan’s troops. The navy was also commanded by the captains
The Great Destroyer showed to possess enough intelligence to carry the destroyer’s actions across the entirety of the continent. That’s not enough intelligence for you?
Not much, it’s just carrying the master’s will without showing much tricks like Glint, the Dragonspawn or some champions of Zhaitan.
The Claws aren’t just spreading corruption, they’re assaulting those who flee from Jormag. Hence their names as Claws of Jormag.
The Dragonspawn was merely defending a cave that housed an army, and though he channeled Jormag’s power… so do simple Svanir shamans.
The Dragonspawn was leading the Icebrood army and keep threatening the Norn, it could turn people into Icebrood with its will, and it could channel Jormag’s power to create a massive blizzard without much effort, this is clearly beyond any of the Claws we saw.
The Eyes appear as no more commanders as any other champion, but serve as direct eyesight for Zhaitan – hence the giant eye they carry around (those eyes by all appearances are separate from the actual beings).
They do command the armies.
Yes, an Eye and a Mouth. The Eye concerns me more. It always precedes an attack by Zhaitan’s horde, so it must become our new priority.
(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)
Also, not everyone who got slain by the Risen turn into one. We can see quite a few NPC didn’t suffer such fate, especially during the assault on Orr. It might need a champion nearby to carry the power. Also the Blue Orb somehow countered Zhaitan’s corruption.
We are talking about Zhaitan. Blightghast didn’t command anything, it just bust in and caused massive destruction in the end of the battle. It appears similar to the Maw in the battle in Seas of Sorrows. Tequatl is similar. They are spreading corruption and serve as the most powerful weapon of the dragon. During the assault of Orr, we also don’t see the dragons commanding the army, they mostly stay in Arah and defend their masters. The Eye of Zhaitan, along with a few high rank Risen are the commanders leading Zhaitan’s troops. The navy was also commanded by the captains
I fail to see what “we’re talking about Zhaitan” has to do with this, particularly? Where is it ever said that Zhaitan doesn’t have intelligent dragons?
After defeating Blightghast, Trahearne (iirc) says that he was one of Zhaitan’s strongest champions, and that it was leading the forces. That’s why we had to lure it out, just like how we lured out each of the champions in the earlier steps by slaughtering the grunts.
During the invasion of Orr, the dragons are busy battling a fleet of airships. Just go to any Orr map and look up.
We never once see an Eye leading forces, actually. We see the temple priests leading armies in Orr, but never the Mouth nor the Eyes. The navy was indeed led by captains, but they appeared to be of lieutenant ranking instead of champion (exceptions being Morgus Lethe).
Not much, it’s just carrying the master’s will without showing much tricks like Glint, the Dragonspawn or some champions of Zhaitan.
But yet it knew where to attack… or was the assault on the PC when communicating with the norn to build an army, or the attack on the golem foundry that was building a stronger weapon to assault the destroyers, or the attacks on dwarven forces (Raven’s Point dungeon, for example), all pure coincidence?
I find that hard to believe. The Great Destroyer is outright stated to have been coordinating the assaults. And though there was no communication, it doesn’t show mindlessness, but a strategic mind. It just isn’t highlighted.
The Dragonspawn was leading the Icebrood army and keep threatening the Norn, it could turn people into Icebrood with its will, and it could channel Jormag’s power to create a massive blizzard without much effort, this is clearly beyond any of the Claws we saw.
The Dragonspawned only threatened norn in the form of retaliation.
All icebrood seem capable of corrupting people via telepathy/their will. We see massive blizzards in The Frozen Maw and one of the Dredgehaunt Cliffs events – done by mere Sons of Svanir. Surely a most important champion would be able to do more than what we see out of common Sons, yes?
They do command the armies.
Point out where, then.
The catacombs beneath the Temple of Balthazar? Nope. That guy’s resting until we disturb him. So was the Risen King in the royal catacombs in the event. The Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan? Nope. He’s just defending that one spring. The one in Doric’s Shrine – he’s patrolling, alone. The Eye we kill after the temple of Abaddon? He has some grunts with him, but hardly an ‘army’. The three Eyes in Arah explorable? Could be, but we have Zhaitan himself there at the same time, and dragons in the distance.
And I think that’s all the Eyes we see.
Yes, an Eye and a Mouth. The Eye concerns me more. It always precedes an attack by Zhaitan’s horde, so it must become our new priority.
Precede != lead
To argue that, would be saying the Risen scouts – which precede an attack by Zhaitan’s horde (amazing how the role suddenly switches… oversight, my little writers!) – were leading the assaults on Port Noble and Lion’s Arch…
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
has anyone ever thought that maybe just maybe the ossuary is where they attach severed limbs to severed limbs to make a new able corpse to fight? and those abominations dont just magically stitch them selfs together (atleast i dont think they do).
We’re not talking about the abominations (and you may be interested in this event in Mount Maelstrom – more specifically, its follow up, which doesn’t seem to be on the wiki for some reason). We’re rather referring to the final room, where a bunch of standard corpses are being soaked with magical urns radiating corrupted magic. These corpses were brought via ships (such as the one attacked and sunk in the alternative story path from Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead) from the front lines.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I got the distinct impression from the lead in mission questions that the Ossuary is used to create abominations. In fact he says ‘corpses go in, abominations come out’. He also refers to Zhaitan’s strongest monstrosities.
To be honest, it’s not very clear. What we really get from the missions is that Zhaitan is having to import corpses since everything in Orr is already fighting.
At the end of the mission, after you destroy the urns that’s stated to be radiating corruption, the corpses rise as thralls.
Trahearne: Those urns scattered around the room are steeped in Zhaitan’s magic!
Trahearne: The dragon must have distilled its essence. Pure necrotic power, in concentrated form.
Trahearne: It’s corrupting all the corpses stored here and fueling the construction of new abominations.
The urns seem to hold two purposes: corrupting the corpses outright, and “fueling” the construction of new abominations, which we see being done in the center of the temple (where the Priestess is fought in the meta event).
It wouldn’t really seem like much for “crippling Zhaitan’s troop reinforcement” if all we did was stop the production of the uncommon abominations.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
True. Its been a long time since I did the Ossuary mission so I don’t remember the details well. The Urns do pretty much explain that its basically a place for pumping out minions wholesale as fast as possible. Kind of makes sense. Why waste time raising corpses individually when you can use a site of concentrated corruption to do it in large groups.
I fail to see what “we’re talking about Zhaitan” has to do with this, particularly? Where is it ever said that Zhaitan doesn’t have intelligent dragons?
After defeating Blightghast, Trahearne (iirc) says that he was one of Zhaitan’s strongest champions, and that it was leading the forces. That’s why we had to lure it out, just like how we lured out each of the champions in the earlier steps by slaughtering the grunts.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retribution
Where? Even in the battle, it didn’t command the troops. It just waited until the battle was close to lose then bust in again, and got killed.
During the invasion of Orr, the dragons are busy battling a fleet of airships. Just go to any Orr map and look up.
That’s exactly what I’m talking about, they are powerful weapons, not commanders of the army. Have you seen any good commander would abandon its army and just fight on the sky?
We never once see an Eye leading forces, actually. We see the temple priests leading armies in Orr, but never the Mouth nor the Eyes. The navy was indeed led by captains, but they appeared to be of lieutenant ranking instead of champion (exceptions being Morgus Lethe).
Not just Morgus, Captain Whitning also serves as the leader of the Risen navy, do we see a dragon alongside him in all 3 encounters? No. Only the Maw serves as the most powerful weapon.
But yet it knew where to attack… or was the assault on the PC when communicating with the norn to build an army, or the attack on the golem foundry that was building a stronger weapon to assault the destroyers, or the attacks on dwarven forces (Raven’s Point dungeon, for example), all pure coincidence?
I find that hard to believe. The Great Destroyer is outright stated to have been coordinating the assaults. And though there was no communication, it doesn’t show mindlessness, but a strategic mind. It just isn’t highlighted.
They were busting from different places. If they truly are intelligent, they would just focus on one without making others aware of the danger, then move on to the next target. We can also see in GW2, compare to other dragons, the destroyers lack of tactic.
The Dragonspawned only threatened norn in the form of retaliation.
All icebrood seem capable of corrupting people via telepathy/their will. We see massive blizzards in The Frozen Maw and one of the Dredgehaunt Cliffs events – done by mere Sons of Svanir. Surely a most important champion would be able to do more than what we see out of common Sons, yes?
No, he “declared war against Norn” as mentioned, in the book it’s clearly mentioned that he is the greatest champion of Jormag. It was mentioned more than once in the novel by different people.
None of these Blizzard did much harm to any of us players, but the one that the Dragonspawn summoned through Jormag’s power killed many many people along with animals.
Knut ’ s face stiffened . “ This storm was worse than the ice brood . It has killed more — ”
Other than Jormag, Dragonspawn and Drakkar were the only one with such power. In both the game and the novel EoD, we don’t see the Icebrood turn others into one, none of the EoD member mentioned it either.
Since you use NPC’s dialogue as evidence, please don’t ignore the other dialogue when they are against your point.
Point out where, then.
The catacombs beneath the Temple of Balthazar? Nope. That guy’s resting until we disturb him. So was the Risen King in the royal catacombs in the event. The Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan? Nope. He’s just defending that one spring. The one in Doric’s Shrine – he’s patrolling, alone. The Eye we kill after the temple of Abaddon? He has some grunts with him, but hardly an ‘army’. The three Eyes in Arah explorable? Could be, but we have Zhaitan himself there at the same time, and dragons in the distance.
And I think that’s all the Eyes we see.
To argue that, would be saying the Risen scouts – which precede an attack by Zhaitan’s horde (amazing how the role suddenly switches… oversight, my little writers!) – were leading the assaults on Port Noble and Lion’s Arch…
The one during the siege of Arah. Maybe commanders are a bit inaccurate, they are more like the Overseers to watch and carry the order for Zhaitan.
(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)
I fail to see what “we’re talking about Zhaitan” has to do with this, particularly? Where is it ever said that Zhaitan doesn’t have intelligent dragons?
After defeating Blightghast, Trahearne (iirc) says that he was one of Zhaitan’s strongest champions, and that it was leading the forces. That’s why we had to lure it out, just like how we lured out each of the champions in the earlier steps by slaughtering the grunts.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retribution
Where? Even in the battle, it didn’t command the troops. It just waited until the battle was close to lose then bust in again, and got killed.
Erm, how would we know if it was or was not leading the forces at Claw island? I’m sorry, but do any of us speak dragon? Or telepathic style directions that dragons seem to do aka like Zhaitan?
During the invasion of Orr, the dragons are busy battling a fleet of airships. Just go to any Orr map and look up.
That’s exactly what I’m talking about, they are powerful weapons, not commanders of the army. Have you seen any good commander would abandon its army and just fight on the sky?[/quote]
Have you noticed the fact Orr had many, many powerful beings on the ground? Temple high priests, princes of Orr, etc.
I’d say it’s actually both ways. the Airships and dragons are keeping each other busy, prevent either side from using them to the advantage of ground forces.
Honestly, we know little about how Dragons think/communicate, so there isn’t any evidence of them not leading the forces. Trahearne in that mission at claw island mentions it is “calling for the dead to rise”. Would a weapon do that, or a commander?
Why, if it wasn’t a commander, wouldn’t it be deployed at first sight? It actually makes more sense if it’s leading the force, flying above to see where the enemy is and moving, and directing the risen to respond.
The word “command” for me at least implies some form of communication, with sentient comprehension of the situation, and orders being given to subordinates that they carry out willingly, according to some higher strategy.
And the strategy part is where it feels a bit off when it comes to dragons. Elder dragons dont seem to be that intelligent, at least not in our understanding. They might just look a bit slow for us, considering how they might perceive time on a much larger scale. Think about trying to catch a fly. To flies, we humans would look big and strong but stupid and slow with our flailing that rarely hits them.
I believe there must be a balance between being intelligent on the level of being able to react to common mortal timescale thinking and thus being able to form strategies and command, and on the other side, being a herald of the big guy’s greatest power.
My guess is that the once mortal but powerful minions like liches and priests and the like are capable of assessing situations on a strategic level and command, playing more like chess, while on the other hand draconic and beast-like champions, while more connected to the power of their respective Elder Dragons, play more like whack-a-mole. Their commanding is more like a single minded domination of the lesser ranks who act as an indirect extension of them. I imagine the EDs are like that as well. Just a bit slower, launching attacks once or twice every decade.
That might change with Mordremoth though, as we are not sure yet if he attacked Concordia and Fort Salma for strategic reasons, or if he was just after the important artifacts that were transfered around at the time, hungering for magic like any other dragons. Not even mentioning his role in all the visions we had about him and his actions so far, as ambiguous as it is at this point.
As for the Ossuary part, im kinda confused about this though. If risen grunts just swarm and lurk without any direction, they need a commander/leader to start transfering the victims to the Ossuary on Orr. But if they have a leader who is powerful enough to retain enough sentience to think about such things, wouldnt that leader be able to inflict the corruption on its own?
i think the best interpretation is just that they use the ossuary to stitch common corpses into abominations (unless i missed it and abominations have a living coutnerpart).
the process was likely first started there because it just so happens to be the largest burial site in orr and the one with more “raw materials”. once the “native” supply of corpses started to run thin they began to carry more there rather than having to setup another abomination-factory somewhere else.
while creating a risen appears to be a simple process creating an abomination likely isn’t. the reason why in the large room at the end you get to fight simple undeads instaed of abominations isn’t so much that it’s what the urns are supposed to do but they simply needed something to stop you -now- and had no time to work the corpses into more than thralls.
(edited by adozu.6398)
Is The Great Destroyer even a dragon? I thought it was Trent Reznor on angry pills.
I was always confused about the Temple of Lyssa holding the Ossuary, when I’d have expected it to be near the temple of Grenth. It seems to make more sense to put your dead relatives into the care of the God of Death. So is there any reason for this?
Each temple has it’s own set of catacombs/crypts.
I fail to see what “we’re talking about Zhaitan” has to do with this, particularly? Where is it ever said that Zhaitan doesn’t have intelligent dragons?
After defeating Blightghast, Trahearne (iirc) says that he was one of Zhaitan’s strongest champions, and that it was leading the forces. That’s why we had to lure it out, just like how we lured out each of the champions in the earlier steps by slaughtering the grunts.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retribution
Where? Even in the battle, it didn’t command the troops. It just waited until the battle was close to lose then bust in again, and got killed.
It doesn’t seem to be on the wiki – there are missing dialogues after all – though I recall seeing it in previous playthroughs (only Vigil and Whisper members made it through, so maybe a Whisper member gets the line). Not sure if it’s during Retribution or Forging the Pact.
And of course we don’t see it commanding the troops. They have a hive mind. We can’t read their thoughts. You NEVER see dragon minions talking to each other, let alone ordering one another, except in very rare situations – like the Sovereign Eye commanding the champion guards to leave, which was more of a psychological move to confuse Trahearne and the PC.
That’s exactly what I’m talking about, they are powerful weapons, not commanders of the army. Have you seen any good commander would abandon its army and just fight on the sky?
Well, given the fact that they have a hive mind, they didn’t really abandon the army, considering they don’t need to be watching over them, since they share thoughts.
Not just Morgus, Captain Whitning also serves as the leader of the Risen navy, do we see a dragon alongside him in all 3 encounters? No. Only the Maw serves as the most powerful weapon.
Morgus was but a single example, not meant to be the sole situation.
Do we see a dragon with Morgus Lethe? No. Do we see a dragon with the Eye of Zhaitan? No. They aren’t going to be with every invasion effort.
They were busting from different places. If they truly are intelligent, they would just focus on one without making others aware of the danger, then move on to the next target. We can also see in GW2, compare to other dragons, the destroyers lack of tactic.
They had power, surprise, and numbers. Attacking the most number of enemies while they’re all off guard, rather than eliminating one group and attacking the others when they know of the threat is not exactly the smartest way to go about things.
Striking at the leaders and advancements is not without intelligence.
No, he “declared war against Norn” as mentioned, in the book it’s clearly mentioned that he is the greatest champion of Jormag. It was mentioned more than once in the novel by different people.
None of these Blizzard did much harm to any of us players, but the one that the Dragonspawn summoned through Jormag’s power killed many many people along with animals.
Knut ’ s face stiffened . “ This storm was worse than the ice brood . It has killed more — ”
Other than Jormag, Dragonspawn and Drakkar were the only one with such power. In both the game and the novel EoD, we don’t see the Icebrood turn others into one, none of the EoD member mentioned it either.
Since you use NPC’s dialogue as evidence, please don’t ignore the other dialogue when they are against your point.
NPCs can be subjective, and the dialogue I use is not contradicted. I think the fact that the Dragonspawn was killed by six individuals with a wolf and two golems kind of makes it seem just a liiiittle bit weaker than a dragon that takes a small army with specialized weaponry to defeat.
You know, just a little.
And the blizzards we see in-game aren’t nearly as bad because we stop them before they can deal a lot of damage.
The one during the siege of Arah. Maybe commanders are a bit inaccurate, they are more like the Overseers to watch and carry the order for Zhaitan.
Watch, yes. Carry? Questionable, at best.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
And the strategy part is where it feels a bit off when it comes to dragons. Elder dragons dont seem to be that intelligent, at least not in our understanding. They might just look a bit slow for us, considering how they might perceive time on a much larger scale. Think about trying to catch a fly. To flies, we humans would look big and strong but stupid and slow with our flailing that rarely hits them.
Glint doesn’t seem to be that intelligent?
The Elder Dragons learn about everything their minions know – and knew, before corruption. That would make them incredibly knowledgeable as they would have the knowledge of the culture, history, and wisdom of countless civilizations. Arguably, Primordus may not be that smart given he doesn’t seem to corrupt living beings. Mordremoth too, given that he’s restricting himself to plants. Maybe the DSD too, restricting to water and all based on what little we have. But the rest? They’d come out as really intelligent, with all that knowledge.
Now, whether they use that knowledge…
Though if we look to an obscure line, it does make their current actions seem like “not the norm” for the Elder Dragons:
“Even the strong will perish when the dragons make their move. Destroyers have begun appearing on both sides of the wall, and they only signal the beginning.”
Though this is before the Battle of Claw Island, Jormag having forced the norn out of their homelands, Primordus doing the same to asura, and Zhaitan’s rise and previous assaults on Port Stalwart, Port Noble, and Lion’s Arch… well, it seems even those aren’t “the dragons making their move.”
So that leads one to wonder: what is them making their move?
Is The Great Destroyer even a dragon? I thought it was Trent Reznor on angry pills.
It’s a little beetle-shaped, but it was certainly draconic.
I was always confused about the Temple of Lyssa holding the Ossuary, when I’d have expected it to be near the temple of Grenth. It seems to make more sense to put your dead relatives into the care of the God of Death. So is there any reason for this?
Each temple has it’s own set of catacombs/crypts.
Well, the Temple of Grenth, Temple of Lyssa, and Temple of Balthazar have their own catacombs.
It’s never really brought up if the temples of Dwayna, Melandru, and Abaddon have the same.
There’s also at least two crypts that aren’t connected to the temples: the royal tombs in Cursed Shore, and the Crypts of the Dreaming Dead in Arah.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
It doesn’t seem to be on the wiki – there are missing dialogues after all – though I recall seeing it in previous playthroughs (only Vigil and Whisper members made it through, so maybe a Whisper member gets the line). Not sure if it’s during Retribution or Forging the Pact.
And of course we don’t see it commanding the troops. They have a hive mind. We can’t read their thoughts. You NEVER see dragon minions talking to each other, let alone ordering one another, except in very rare situations – like the Sovereign Eye commanding the champion guards to leave, which was more of a psychological move to confuse Trahearne and the PC.
They do talk to each other, Captain Whitning gave order to his crew. Other than the Claw Island, we can see the dragons don’t stay with their army. In the case of the Claw Island one, Plaguebringer didn’t make any tactic order or command or even stay with the troops in the beginning, pretty much like the Maw. The Maw also showed up later than the Dead Ships. The land army looks more likely commanded by powerful Risen mortals(similar to the navy) such as the Archmage in the Steel Tide quest.
Morgus was but a single example, not meant to be the sole situation.
Do we see a dragon with Morgus Lethe? No. Do we see a dragon with the Eye of Zhaitan? No. They aren’t going to be with every invasion effort.
Actually they don’t even stay with the troops. So it’s not likely to be their duty. Also, different Elder Dragons’ champions are quite different. Since their way to create minions are entirely different.
They had power, surprise, and numbers. Attacking the most number of enemies while they’re all off guard, rather than eliminating one group and attacking the others when they know of the threat is not exactly the smartest way to go about things.
Striking at the leaders and advancements is not without intelligence.
But they weren’t really offguard, they were already warned and the assault truly let them realize the threat.
NPCs can be subjective, and the dialogue I use is not contradicted. I think the fact that the Dragonspawn was killed by six individuals with a wolf and two golems kind of makes it seem just a liiiittle bit weaker than a dragon that takes a small army with specialized weaponry to defeat.
You know, just a little.
And the blizzards we see in-game aren’t nearly as bad because we stop them before they can deal a lot of damage.
The same individuals(minus Logan) almost killed Kralkatorrik with Glint’s help. In the description of the Blizzard summoned by the Dragonspawn, it was much worse than the Svanir Shaman’s work, and it made much worse effort.
Watch, yes. Carry? Questionable, at best.
They do give order to other undead more than once.
Each temple has it’s own set of catacombs/crypts.
Well, the Temple of Grenth, Temple of Lyssa, and Temple of Balthazar have their own catacombs.
It’s never really brought up if the temples of Dwayna, Melandru, and Abaddon have the same.
There’s also at least two crypts that aren’t connected to the temples: the royal tombs in Cursed Shore, and the Crypts of the Dreaming Dead in Arah.
Well, Melandru is by far the most destroyed temple, with the searing bombardment from PS and all, and in general. Though it’s rear area links into water filled areas and the source of Orr, so I would believe if it lacked a proper crypt.
Dwayna’s temple though, did contain a sealed door behind the statue of Dwayna (that you kill in the event). So it might.
ALSO, in the ossuary mission, you end up traveling entirely into the old tower of Dhuum IIRC.
They do talk to each other, Captain Whitning gave order to his crew. Other than the Claw Island, we can see the dragons don’t stay with their army. In the case of the Claw Island one, Plaguebringer didn’t make any tactic order or command or even stay with the troops in the beginning, pretty much like the Maw. The Maw also showed up later than the Dead Ships. The land army looks more likely commanded by powerful Risen mortals(similar to the navy) such as the Archmage in the Steel Tide quest.
Fun fact: Whiting only starts talking once near Cobiah, and no risen responds to him. Prior to this, they were thinking the risen to be relatively mindless but powerful, Whiting giving commands with words instills a psychological assault on the enemy. “They’re powerful and smart!” kind of thing, right?
Would the commander really be on the front lines? Or would something that is nothing more than “a powerful weapons” do so? There are more than just the dragons to command, obviously, but it was Blightghast that led the assault on Claw Island nonetheless. Just like with Thaddeus Ghostrite and a bunch of other dragon champions, one had to slay a bunch of mooks to draw out the champion’s attention.
The Maw actually showed up roughly the same time as the Dead Ships, and was on the front lines the entire time.
Actually they don’t even stay with the troops. So it’s not likely to be their duty. Also, different Elder Dragons’ champions are quite different. Since their way to create minions are entirely different.
Very few commanders – dragon minion or otherwise – will ever be at the front lines. Not unless they have a specific, personal, target. Morgus Lethe was attracted to the ship, and Whiting to Cobiah for example.
The Destroyer of Life was far from its troops, way in the back of its lair. All of the temple priests are seldom fought with the hordes of risen that you have to defend against, and all have to be drawn out.
In the description of the Blizzard summoned by the Dragonspawn, it was much worse than the Svanir Shaman’s work, and it made much worse effort.
Because. We. Stopped. The. Shaman’s. Work.
The Dragonspawn’s blizzard was not stopped.
They do give order to other undead more than once.
I ask once more: provide source. Your previously stated Arah Eyes never once speak.
The Eyes elsewhere merely give orders to a small number of individuals – if at all – and this is nothing but psychological warfare in how it’s said and done.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Well, Melandru is by far the most destroyed temple, with the searing bombardment from PS and all, and in general. Though it’s rear area links into water filled areas and the source of Orr, so I would believe if it lacked a proper crypt.
Dwayna’s temple though, did contain a sealed door behind the statue of Dwayna (that you kill in the event). So it might.
ALSO, in the ossuary mission, you end up traveling entirely into the old tower of Dhuum IIRC.
I would say that the sealed door at Dwayna’s temple is… into the inside of the temple (we only see the inside of Grenth’s and Abaddon’s temples, maybe Melandru’s with the destruction and all – with Lyssa, we arguably go inside some of it, but most of it appears to be outside; Dwayna’s and Balthazar’s however we only ever go into the entrance plaza, which would be the equivalent of the Plaza of Wisdom at the temple of Abaddon).
Where we end up is the ossuary of the temple of Lyssa (hence the name “Ossuary of Unquiet Dead”). Which happens to be where Dhuum fell. Dhuum’s tower was in the Underworld, the Chaos Plains specifically. It was never in Tyria, let alone Orr.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.