Guild Wars 2

Will this blow your mind?

You: Pale Tree, tell me what you know about Scarlet.
Pale Tree: I know all my children by heart, even the one that has disconnected. But in all my memory, Ceara, or the one you called Scarlet, never existed.
You: What do you mean by she “never existed”? We all saw her.
Pale Tree: I have no knowledge of her existence until very recently. She is not a child of mine.

Notice that the Pale Tree never mentioned Scarlet anywhere throughout the story. But the lore said that Pale Tree spoke to Scarlet, and see Scarlet as a major threat.

How is this possible?

WTH????

How did Scarlet find out secrets about Caithe?

Where did Scarlet get all her troops. Why do they (Molten Alliance, Aetherblades, Steam Creatures) always invade by portals?

Molten Alliance and Aetherblades are made up of all races. But why didn’t any NPCs in “our Kryta” never mention anything about it? Like “OMG my son joined Aetherblades and are now killing people!”

Why did Scarlet and all her underlings appear out of thin air.

Who is the world is Headmaster Omadd? Headmaster is a pretty important position. Have you ever heard about this guy as an Asura? He doesn’t even have a wiki page.

Think about it guys.

~-=Answer: Alternate Reality!!!=-~

That’s right. The “Pale Tree” that’s in Scarlet’s story is not “Our Pale Tree”. Its a Pale Tree from another dimension.

Wait! Caithe said she meet Scarlet before.

Sure. Caithe surely met Scarlet. But did Caithe ever question Scarlet’s connection to “Our Pale Tree”? Did Caithe know Scarlet that well? Nope.

Scarlet knows Caithe’s secrets because the “Caithe from another dimension” did something.

Scarlet’s minions arrives from portals because they were literally arriving from another dimension.

No one in “Our Kryta” know any members of the Molten Alliance or Aetherblades because they literally do not exist in our world.

No one in our world knows who Headmaster Omadd is because he literally does not exist in “Our Kryta”.

Scarlet does not care about the lives of anyone in “Our Kryta” and treat us as insects, because we literally does not exist in “Scarlet’s Kryta”. “Our Kryta” is nothing but a “video game” for her.

“Our Kryta” might not be the first dimension she tried to conquer. She might have conquered countless others.

Let me know what you think about this?

Where did you find the conversation you list at the top? I don’t remember ever coming across that.

Mmm, maybe she came from future? Or she drop out of the space-time continuum? Or parallel universe.

From the short story about scarlet:
“Welcome, sapling.” The voice was kind, the tone gentle. “My name is Mender Serimon. You are safe here.”
Also:
“Sapling?” Serimon said. “I’m here to help you acclimate. To help you understand your place in this world and identify the purpose Pale Mother has given you.”

Her eyes remained fixed on on the complex living dance of the forest. “I’ll find my own place, thank you very much. And it’s hardly ‘my’ purpose if someone else gives it to me.”
—————-
This mender can be found and talked to in-game if I remember correctly. Also during queen’s Jubilee the asura that was helping us knew that she graduated from all the colleges.

Seems like she’s from our universe to me, nice theory tho!

I was really hoping she would be from the other Pale Tree…you know, the one we know exists but has not had any other mention in the game aside from the one personal story mission.

The pale tree never mentioned scarlet because anet didn’t have scarlet planned at launch.

Sometimes somethings require a little suspension of disbelief. This is one of them.

No, Cappi, I was reffering to the coversation that starts off with "Pale Tree, tell me what you know about Scarlet.

Then how Caithe met Scarlet long time ago?

Cappi.9742:

From the short story about scarlet:
“Welcome, sapling.” The voice was kind, the tone gentle. “My name is Mender Serimon. You are safe here.”
Also:
“Sapling?” Serimon said. “I’m here to help you acclimate. To help you understand your place in this world and identify the purpose Pale Mother has given you.”

Her eyes remained fixed on on the complex living dance of the forest. “I’ll find my own place, thank you very much. And it’s hardly ‘my’ purpose if someone else gives it to me.”
—————-
This mender can be found and talked to in-game if I remember correctly. Also during queen’s Jubilee the asura that was helping us knew that she graduated from all the colleges.

Seems like she’s from our universe to me, nice theory tho!

In the alternative universe theory, the Serimon that Scarlet met in “Scarlet’s Kryta” is different from the Serimon we met in “Our Kryta”.

GussJr.1643:

Where did you find the conversation you list at the top? I don’t remember ever coming across that.

Its a made up conversation by me. It is not in the game.

Gandarel.5091:

Then how Caithe met Scarlet long time ago?

Like I said, Caithe met Scarlet in the past. But did Caithe ever question Scarlet’s connection to “Our Pale Tree”? Did Caithe know Scarlet that well? Nope.

Scarlet can easily pretend to be some harmless girl and met Caithe long time ago, just to tease her later.

The possibility of Scarlet being from another reality was brought up before some time ago – when the Steam creatures were first seen in Queen’s Jubilee.

But I believe the “What Scarlet Saw,” the interview between TowerTalk and Scott/Angel, and content since has rather debunked the theory. No, not fully, but the likeliness has dimmed to immense value.

In order for Scarlet to be of another reality:

1. The entire short story needs to be in that other reality.
2. There needs to be a Ceara of this reality.
3. We need to know alternate realities actually exist.
4. Scarlet needs to be a recent addition to this world. Very recent.

Doing this – if done right – could be a saving grace for the pathetic shove-in that What Scarlet Saw was, but I just don’t see it and there are better ways to save face with Scarlet.

In B4 Scarlet Briar = Sylvari Player Character from the same possible future as the Grand High Sovereign of the asura Infinity Ball storyline. And Mai Trin = Human player character. New Molten Alliance leader = charr player character. And some norn that’ll show up = norn player character. All united in the other reality, turned evil post killing half the ED, and conquered their world and now bent on conquering ours.

That may prove somewhat interesting… but if my female sylvari named Kierra is meant to become Ceara… no thank you.

Sounds interesting. I hope they go the alternate reality route.

Didn’t read the above posts, but there is also Malyck to consider: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malyck

Scarlet could be from a different Tree

And she stole Caithe’s Facebook password to discover her secrets.

@Meili: If you read the thread, or the Short Story: What Scarlet Saw, you’d know she came from the Pale Tree.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Meili: If you read the thread, or the Short Story: What Scarlet Saw, you’d know she came from the Pale Tree.

She came from a Pale Tree, that much is true. The question is which Pale Tree from which dimension? :P

Hmm, I’m not sure why you made up Pale Tree conversation. Also, while you used the alternate reality to explain how she got superior forces and knowledge, you didn’t really give a plausible explanation of why she would move to an alternate reality. Other than the generic evil villain, "Look at me! I’m super powerful, and I’m out to destroy you all!’.

The short story points out that Scarlet is trying to change the world. If that is true, what is the point of her packing up and moving to another one? Another world that might be totally different from her own? Scarlet moving to an alternate reality would take away all her motives, and it would basically make her short story worthless, because it wouldn’t apply to our world.

While I don’t mind the use of alternate realities, in some fringe(keyword) Asura or Mursaat lore elements, the use of it in major storyline arcs is a horrible idea. It’s the stuff that happens when a series is in its death throes, and they are scrapping the bottom of the barrel for plot ideas.

Erukk.1408:

Hmm, I’m not sure why you made up Pale Tree conversation. Also, while you used the alternate reality to explain how she got superior forces and knowledge, you didn’t really give a plausible explanation of why she would move to an alternate reality. Other than the generic evil villain, "Look at me! I’m super powerful, and I’m out to destroy you all!’.

The short story points out that Scarlet is trying to change the world. If that is true, what is the point of her packing up and moving to another one? Another world that might be totally different from her own? Scarlet moving to an alternate reality would take away all her motives, and it would basically make her short story worthless, because it wouldn’t apply to our world.

While I don’t mind the use of alternate realities, in some fringe(keyword) Asura or Mursaat lore elements, the use of it in major storyline arcs is a horrible idea. It’s the stuff that happens when a series is in its death throes, and they are scrapping the bottom of the barrel for plot ideas.

Scarlet is not out to change the world. She is out to change the rules.

Rules. What are the rules of the world? That’s the history. The pieces of events that make people behave in a certain way.

Scarlet is out to experiment with different set of rules, history and events, to see how things turn out. She is trying to find a set of history and events that will alter the Sylvari into what she want them to be.

Her short story never had an effect in our world in the first place, and that’s prove that she is from an alternative universe. Look around. I ask once again, who in the world was Headmaster Omadd? Has anyone ever heard of him? Have anyone seen this NPC?

Has any “Non-Molten Alliance” Flame Legion and Dredge mention anything about the Molten Alliance? Did they even know about it beforehand? How can Gaheron Baelfire not know about it? Why bother making Gaheron Baelfire into a god when Scarlet is already their god?

Scarlet can use mass amounts of summon portals at the same time to transport her troops. Many people overlooked this, but this is a very important clue. You know who else can? Elder Dragons, Dhuum and the like that’s it. You have to be that powerful of a mage to use summon portals in that quantity. Is Scarlet, a 15 years old Sylvari Engineer (not even a mage), in the same league as the Elder Dragons and Dhuum. Is this even possible? Who needs heroes like us when we have villains like this? If you ask me, Scarlet is much older than she appears.

Alternative universe is already part of our storyline. Steam creatures are 100% proven to be from an alternative universe. Scarlet use them as minions, which by definition means she is involved in an alternative universe.

If Scarlet was indeed from our world, there are thousands of plot holes that need to be filled for this story to make sense.

If she is trying to experiment on the worlds, to shape the Sylvari into what she wants them to be, that is changing the world. Her using her huge army of watchwork, Aetherblades, and Molten Alliance to attack people, changes the world. Her effecting the events of a world at all, changes the world.

So, i’ll ask again. Why? What is the point of going to other worlds? You are saying she has this huge multi-dimensional army, a vast store of knowledge, and the power to fuel dimensional portals constantly. If she has that much power at her disposal, why isn’t she just using it to change her world. She obviously has more than enough power to do so.

As for Headmaster Omadd and Baelfire, lore is not lore until it is written down and made. There was always a previous headmaster of synergetics, but Omadd didn’t technically exist until Anet wrote the short story. Now that they have, Omadd is lore. He was there, and he was always technically been there now. It doesn’t matter if you haven’t seen or heard of him before.

Unless you have proof Baelfire didn’t know about the MA, the argument is at a moot point. Just because he didn’t say he knew about the MA, doesn’t mean he didn’t know about it. “The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence”.

CHIPS.6018:

Scarlet is not out to change the world. She is out to change the rules.

Rules. What are the rules of the world? That’s the history. The pieces of events that make people behave in a certain way.

Scarlet is out to experiment with different set of rules, history and events, to see how things turn out. She is trying to find a set of history and events that will alter the Sylvari into what she want them to be.

What she’s out to change is the idea that’s imbedded into her mind, partially thanks to being what the Eternal Alchemy teaches, as “predetermination” – the belief that everyone has a purpose and must conform to that purpose no matter what.

She isn’t out to change the “rules” per se, and she’s definitely not out to change the history or events. She’s out to change the future, specifically in how everyone that isn’t her is able to alter it. She’s not out to change the past. Nor is a new past required for her goals.

CHIPS.6018:

Her short story never had an effect in our world in the first place, and that’s prove that she is from an alternative universe. Look around. I ask once again, who in the world was Headmaster Omadd? Has anyone ever heard of him? Have anyone seen this NPC?

Except that it did, we just didn’t know that those things happened.

That’s called shoehorning, not alternate dimensions.

CHIPS.6018:

Has any “Non-Molten Alliance” Flame Legion and Dredge mention anything about the Molten Alliance? Did they even know about it beforehand? How can Gaheron Baelfire not know about it? Why bother making Gaheron Baelfire into a god when Scarlet is already their god?

Actually, yes.

1. In all dredge/Flame Legion bases (or almost all), in the third Flame and Frost installment some interactive objects were added. Some were notes from the dredge, other from the Flame Legion. They were about the alliance between the two forces – what each side gave to the other and how they interacted – and their plans.
2. One of the Sorrow’s Embraces explorable paths, there’s an ambiguous line which, taken retrospectively, kind of hints to the Molten Alliance. The one where you face the Destroyer of Worlds. Dredge need flame magic – first they go to controlling destroyers, when that doesn’t work (specifically when those wnating to use destroyers are killed), at the end of the path we have “Now, you should go. What happens next does not concern you.” coming from someone who was earlier talking about how outside races aiding is the turning point for dredge society.

Gaheron likely didn’t know of the Molten Alliance as it likely began shortly after his death – it’s also possible he did know and never made mention; he could have been keeping Scarlet at negotiations or even his death being why Scarlet was even capable of convincing the Flame Legion. It’s possible he did know of the alliance and even helped start it. However, the Godforged, Gaherons elite units, do have a role in the alliance – that much is certain as they’re the ones who make the flame-embued dredge (Molten Protector, Molten Shaman) – as per one of the Dead Drops.

Scarlet is not their god. The Flame Legion intended to make one of their own a god. And Scarlet may lead them (or rather, she got them to unite and now they’re aiding her still for unknown reasons), but they don’t worship her.

CHIPS.6018:

Scarlet can use mass amounts of summon portals at the same time to transport her troops. Many people overlooked this, but this is a very important clue. You know who else can? Elder Dragons, Dhuum and the like that’s it. You have to be that powerful of a mage to use summon portals in that quantity. Is Scarlet, a 15 years old Sylvari Engineer (not even a mage), in the same league as the Elder Dragons and Dhuum. Is this even possible? Who needs heroes like us when we have villains like this? If you ask me, Scarlet is much older than she appears.

1. Elder Dragons don’t make portals.
2. Dhuum “and the like” don’t technically either. In Dhuum, Menzies, and Abaddon’s cases the portals were made from the Shadow Nexus – a gateway complex of sorts within the Realm of Torment.
3. Scarlet’s portals don’t seem to be magic, but magitech. Not so different than asura portals, but without the gates.
4. Scarlet’s not in the same league as gods and Elder Dragons. Not even remotely close. Though she thinks she is.

CHIPS.6018:

Alternative universe is already part of our storyline. Steam creatures are 100% proven to be from an alternative universe. Scarlet use them as minions, which by definition means she is involved in an alternative universe.

False.

The Infinity Ball storyline only tells us of possible futures. This is fundamentally different than an alternate reality – as alternate realities are parallel in the timeline. It’s also different than an alternate future, as alternate futures require said future to remain in existence after it influenced its past. We have no way of knowing that the future which the Grand High Sovereign’s future remained to exist after he walked through that portal – his very walking through could have caused his future to never occur. On the flip side, it is possible that in his past, a futuristic Grand High Sovereign also walked through and was killed by him – thus making the timeline a loop for him, unchanging. Meaning there’s 1 future, and only 1 future – and again, no alternate future.

I think people are putting too much stock into Scarlet’s use of the steam creatures. They make up less than 1% of her army’s forces. Are they even seen in Twilight Arbor’s new path which appear to be her main base of operations?

CHIPS.6018:

If Scarlet was indeed from our world, there are thousands of plot holes that need to be filled for this story to make sense.

Indeed. That’s why it’s called “shoehorning.” That’s why Scarlet is such a pathetic excuse of a proper villain.

Erukk.1408:

If she is trying to experiment on the worlds, to shape the Sylvari into what she wants them to be, that is changing the world. Her using her huge army of watchwork, Aetherblades, and Molten Alliance to attack people, changes the world. Her effecting the events of a world at all, changes the world.

So, i’ll ask again. Why? What is the point of going to other worlds? You are saying she has this huge multi-dimensional army, a vast store of knowledge, and the power to fuel dimensional portals constantly. If she has that much power at her disposal, why isn’t she just using it to change her world. She obviously has more than enough power to do so.

As for Headmaster Omadd and Baelfire, lore is not lore until it is written down and made. There was always a previous headmaster of synergetics, but Omadd didn’t technically exist until Anet wrote the short story. Now that they have, Omadd is lore. He was there, and he was always technically been there now. It doesn’t matter if you haven’t seen or heard of him before.

Unless you have proof Baelfire didn’t know about the MA, the argument is at a moot point. Just because he didn’t say he knew about the MA, doesn’t mean he didn’t know about it. “The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence”.

Scarlet have the ability to go to other dimensions. But she cannot control the future. No one can. The future is by definition unpredictable. Just because she gave an input it doesn’t mean the world will change to how see likes it.

So what does this mean? That means she have to change the events and history of other worlds, and see how the history in those worlds unfolds first. Once “one of these alternative worlds” reaches an ending that she likes, she can then implement those changes to her “own world”.

I repeat. She must first make an alternative world reach the ending that she likes, before she can implement those change to her own world. Else, the future is unpredictable no matter what she does.

Saying that no one knows about Headmaster Omadd is like saying no one knows Dumbledore in Harry Porter. Omadd is a headmaster, not some random mad scientist. If he exists, there is no way we would know nothing about him.

Baelfire’s action shows he knows nothing about the Molten Alliance. He was trying to make himself into a god. Why bother? Scarlet is their all powerful god. And why resurrect him? He is weak when compared to Molten Alliance’s new weapons.

Konig I will reply to you after I come back later. ^^

CHIPS.6018:

Scarlet have the ability to go to other dimensions. But she cannot control the future. No one can. The future is by definition unpredictable. Just because she gave an input it doesn’t mean the world will change to how see likes it.

No one can control the future, true. But that isn’t her goal. Her goal is to change the fate of sylvarity. She isn’t bent on ruling. She isn’t bent on control. She’s bent on altering.

So what does this mean? That means she have to change the events and history of other worlds, and see how the history in those worlds unfolds first. Once “one of these alternative worlds” reaches an ending that she likes, she can then implement those changes to her “own world”.

No, she doesn’t. She doesn’t need to change history. And she isn’t trying to either.

I repeat. She must first make an alternative world reach the ending that she likes, before she can implement those change to her own world. Else, the future is unpredictable no matter what she does.

Scarlet has a superiority complex. She believes next to nothing can and should stand in her way to prevent what she’s doing. Furthermore, she believes she has seen the Eternal Alchemy – translatio: she thinks she knows how everything works and how it’ll work when she alters it in any way.

You say she’s doing trial and error. Scarlet doesn’t need trial and error. In her mind, she already knows exactly what to do, and she got that knowledge from her vision. In her head, she does things once, only needs to do them once, and it will work.

She will learn she is wrong though, but you get the idea, I dare hope.

Saying that no one knows about Headmaster Omadd is like saying no one knows Dumbledore in Harry Porter. Omadd is a headmaster, not some random mad scientist. If he exists, there is no way we would know nothing about him.

Nope. Omadd is a former headmaster. Also, players not knowing != NPCs not knowing. A proper comparison would be Rowling not telling us Dumbledore’s predecessor until it becomes relevant (do we even know who said person was? If not, the characters sans possibly Harry and some other kids likely did).

We don’t know who Jennah’s father was. Doesn’t mean that he didn’t exist.

Baelfire’s action shows he knows nothing about the Molten Alliance. He was trying to make himself into a god. Why bother? Scarlet is their all powerful god. And why resurrect him? He is weak when compared to Molten Alliance’s new weapons.

His actions? All we see him do personally is attempt to repel intruders to his home. And again, Scarlet is not their god. Unless you have solid evidential proof that the MA Flame Legion does consider her a god – if they do, then that’s another plothole in GW2’s story given how they were set up to be “we will make our own a god”.

And again – NPCs not telling us something does not mean that a) it doesn’t exist and/or b) they don’t know about it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Are they even seen in Twilight Arbor’s new path which appear to be her main base of operations?

Only one type of Steam Creature is seen and only used as an alarm unit.

I do have to point out, Molten alliance creation was after both Baelfire’s death and the Explorable story if you go off of the level ranges. I understand that it isn’t an exact science, but it would make sense that we destroyed their prospects of bringing him to life, so they had to find some other way to wrangle control, thus MA was born.

I highly doubt they see her as a god, and I’m personally surprised that they even still exist as a group with her because of the way in which they despised each other for their failures. I plan on attempting the dungeon tonight. I hope that it gives me a new perspective of her/her cohorts.

Actually, that may not be true, Narcemus. Hidden deep within the bowels of https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/ you may find an entry dated around May or June, shortly after the final release of Flame and Frost. In this entry, you will find a video. Within this video, you will see and hear Angel McCoy and Scott McGough explaining the plot and relevance of Flame and Frost. Within this explanation, one of the things said is this (paraphrased):

The Molten Alliance existed for a while, underground and unknown to the Orders. They were able to do so much damage so fast because of this – they’ve been building their forces, and did so without being noticed, and then unleashed their forces in large might. The Orders didn’t see this alliance brewing because they were too busy dealing with Zhaitan, Orr’s invasion, and other dragon-related threats which occupy almost all of their time.

So the Molten Alliance may or may not have been born even before GW2’s initial release storyline timeframe.

When it comes to the Living Story, levels matter not. For they will alter the “unknown” past, to affect the present.

To Konig,

Make sense or not, I will tell you why this story doesn’t sit well with me at all, if Scarlet and her minions is not from an alternative universe.

One of the things Scarlet said was “My minions works for me now because they are afraid of me.”

Afraid of her? Who are we kidding?

One one hand we have the Dredge, who fought against everything just so they are now no longer slaves to anyone. They sacrificed so much for their freedom.

And now this story want me to believe that the Dredge are afraid of death? And they are now willing slaves of Scarlet because they are afraid of her oppression? They do her bidding because they are too scared to fight back?

The Dredge I know will rather fight until the last man and go extinct than become the slaves of Scarlet.

Secondly we have the Flame Legion. This one legion held the other 3 legions to a stand still, and were actually winning until the female Charrs shown up. Even after defeat, this Flame Legion refused to surrender. They retreated to their stronghold and survived against the whole Charr nation for over 100 years till today.

And now this story wants to tell me that the Flame Legion are afraid of death? They are so scared of Scarlet that they are willing to abandon their religion (magic only, screw technology) for her?

The Flame Legion I know would fight to the last man and go extinct to defend their religion.

The only possible way my mind can even comprehend this story is that the Molten Alliance have absolutely nothing to do with the Dredges and Flame Legion of “Our Dimension”.

To Konig,

Now let’s talk about Scarlet.

I agree that she has superiority complex. Its written all over her face and voice. But unless she is totally crazy, she should know very well that the future is unpredictable. Look at her plans against us. All of them so far ended in failures. Unless all these failures were part of her plan somehow (which I doubt, since there is little benefit to losing that Airship factory in TA), she already tasted failures. So whatever plan she have, even if she wins, may not lead to the future that she planned.

You’re forgetting she “thought” she saw the Eternal Alchemy. Since she thought she saw how the very universe works, she thinks her knows how to control and shape the very future. In her mind, it isn’t unpredictable. It is simply a matter of cause and effect to get to her desired future outcome she wants.

Also, we were able to foil some of her plans, but we don’t know if they are considered failures to her, because she could still have gotten something out of it.

She created the Molten Alliance, and she used it to attack Hoelbrak and Black Citadel. The attacks failed, but she was able to weaken their defenses and cause a portion of their populace to flee the area. More importantly though, she got advanced magitech from the combined technologies of the Dredge and Flame Legion.

She created the Aetherblades, and she got some Inquest tech from their partnership. She then used the Aetherblades to assassinate a member of the Captain Council and have Mai Trin take the empty spot. The plan was a failure, but they were still able to kill Theo Ashford, a rich and influential captain. His replacement was Ellen Kiel, having nowhere near the influence or wealth that Theo did. She also had her Aetherblades steal the hologram tech used for the Dragon Bash.

Queen’s Jubilee was her big reveal. She thought it might be fun to test humanity’s strength while they were celebrating it. The assassination was a failure, but she till had fun hijacking and stealing their new watchworks. Another new piece of technology to add to her growing collection.

The only big failure she might have had was maybe in Twilight Assault. The Lionsguard(and players) were able to take her shipyard. On the other hand though, Scarlet sent a personal invitation to Caithe, by saying she has her secrets to tell the world. Scarlet has Caithe’s full attention now. The shipyard might have been a big lose, but Scarlet seemed more interested in getting Caithe to chase after her.

Her plans might have been foiled, but Scarlet is always gaining something from it though. Whether it would be new technology for her to use, or it’s getting people to do what she wants.

just putting this out there. if Scarlet is narcissistic, then any failures are not her fault and they are part of a huge conspiracy that proves she is right and her work is even more important than she believed till now

i’ve met people like that in real life. not cool Dave, not cool

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Actually, that may not be true, Narcemus. Hidden deep within the bowels of https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/ you may find an entry dated around May or June, shortly after the final release of Flame and Frost. In this entry, you will find a video. Within this video, you will see and hear Angel McCoy and Scott McGough explaining the plot and relevance of Flame and Frost. Within this explanation, one of the things said is this (paraphrased):

The Molten Alliance existed for a while, underground and unknown to the Orders. They were able to do so much damage so fast because of this – they’ve been building their forces, and did so without being noticed, and then unleashed their forces in large might. The Orders didn’t see this alliance brewing because they were too busy dealing with Zhaitan, Orr’s invasion, and other dragon-related threats which occupy almost all of their time.

So the Molten Alliance may or may not have been born even before GW2’s initial release storyline timeframe.

When it comes to the Living Story, levels matter not. For they will alter the “unknown” past, to affect the present.

Okay, so it is possible that they had been around while Gaheron was still alive, but I think it more likely that the time period that Angel and Scott were talking about would be the time-period from the take over of Orr through the killing of Zhaitan and through the events of Halloween, Lost Shores and Wintersday. I mean if you think literally going from Halloween to Wintersday would be roughly 5-6 months (until they retcon the time of year Wintersday occurs).

She could the the deus ex machina of GW2’s story and continuity. I hope in the future she’ll fill the gaps of what happened between the updates and as to how it did.

Also, Scarlet is kitten

You say that as if a dues ex machina is a good thing…

It isn’t. Unless done wittingly.

Forgot to respond to CHIPS last night…

CHIPS.6018:

One of the things Scarlet said was “My minions works for me now because they are afraid of me.”

Afraid of her? Who are we kidding?

Wrong.

Scarlet claims the Aetherblades work for her because they don’t want to die. Specifically saying (to the best of my memory as it’s not on the wiki sadly): “Have you met my Aetherblades? They work for me, you know, because they enjoy living.”

And if you read the latest short story, you’ll know that this is somewhat true – they are doing their best to stay on her good side. Though I have a feeling that she wasn’t telling the entire truth there – keep in mind that Guild Wars 2 makes extremely heavy usage of Subjective Truths – that means that what’s said is not the actual situation, but either one’s view of the situation… or a lie.

If you do Twilight Arbor’s new path (I haven’t, but wiki’s helpful <3) you may hear this:

Aetherblade Thug: “Following Scarlet’s lead is dangerous, but it’s also profitable. Not to mention fun.”
Aetherblade Grenadier: “Clear the vegetation, build the ships, kill the intruders… There better be some serious coin at the end of this.”
Aetherblade Foreman Spur: “We’re already way behind schedule. If you lot want to get back to plundering full-time, pick up the pace.”

Something tells me that they don’t work for her just because they want to live. They work for her despite the danger because its profitable and fun (what do you expect of pirates?).

Nonetheless, nothing says the Molten Alliance work for her because they’re afraid of her. No, instead, what we get is that they work for her because the Flame Legion needs technology, and the dredge need magic, and Scarlet can provide that.

CHIPS.6018:

To Konig,

Now let’s talk about Scarlet.

I agree that she has superiority complex. Its written all over her face and voice. But unless she is totally crazy, she should know very well that the future is unpredictable. Look at her plans against us. All of them so far ended in failures. Unless all these failures were part of her plan somehow (which I doubt, since there is little benefit to losing that Airship factory in TA), she already tasted failures. So whatever plan she have, even if she wins, may not lead to the future that she planned.

Thing is: she is totally crazy.

And for “all her plans” there was only two that failed (for her at least), and one was just an act of a whim. She hasn’t so much “already tasted failures” but “just now tasted failure for the first time in her life.” We’ve yet to see her reaction to such beyond promises of pain in the future. We’ll likely see this next month, unless she intends to ransack a third celebration.

Sorry Konig but I doubt you can justify the Flame Legion’s action with their religion, and the Dredge’s continued trust in the Inquest and sudden trust in a total stranger (Scarlet).

1) Flame Legion

The very core that holds the Flame Legion together is their zealous religious beliefs. They believe that their god and his magic (was Titans, then Destroyers, and now something else) was superior to any other magic and technology.

By accepting help from Scarlet and the Dredge, the Flame Legion is effective admitting that their god and his magic isn’t enough to win the war. That they need outside help. That means their religion is effectively gone. And when that happens, the priesthood leadership’s hold on its people collapses. A zealous society cannot survive without its religion.

What’s the point of fighting the other 3 high legions? The Flame Legion is admitting that they are wrong. Their god is false. Their magic sucks. The other 3 high legions was right to adopt technology.

2) Dredge

I will keep this short. The Dredge were slaves for so long, that they find it hard to trust anyone. They eventually allied themselves with the Inquest, which led to a civil war resulting in the death of the dictator Shukov.

So a new government was recently install, and the next logical step would be to break away from the Inquest and ally themselves with the Pact.

Nope. The dredge now continue to ally themselves with the Inquest and, furthermore, this new girl call Scarlet.

What?

The whole reason for the civil war was to overthrow Shukov, because he decided to ally with the Inquest. But somehow the new government decides to continue this alliance?

And keeping in the mind that Dredge rarely trust anyone, even older races, why in the world would they suddenly trust a total stranger in Scarlet?

CHIPS.6018:

Sorry Konig but I doubt you can justify the Flame Legion’s action with their religion, and the Dredge’s continued trust in the Inquest and sudden trust in a total stranger (Scarlet).

…………………

Where did I say this? I didn’t.

Flame Legion work for Scarlet because they need technology, she provides it.

Dredge work for Scarlet because they need magic, and Scarlet provided it in the form of Flame Legion.

Scarlet says this in Twilight Assault:

“Have I mentioned how much I love unusual pairings? Because I do, and as such, I present Sparki and Slick!”

And that’s exactly what the Molten Alliance is. It should also be noted that during Flame and Frost they didn’t necessarily work with Scarlet. Other than her uniting the two, nothing really says that they continued working for her during the coarse of Flame and Frost.

The question, however, is “why do they still work with her?” The question comes from:

1. The fact they were destroyed except for a few pockets.
2. The above showed the alliance didn’t really work.

Thing is, they only appear in the invasions. Now, given how the numbers of corpses would pretty much equate the population of an entire nation and more over time, the numbers has to be viewed as rather… mechanical and not lorical. Their numbers there are probably small overall.

The answer is probably in this:

You could never understand because you and your people are destined to die in our fires. Your time is coming. You should prepare yourselves.
→What are you talking about?
Nothing. Never mind. Go fight your dragons. If you don’t, they’ll annihilate you.
→They’ll annihilate you too.
I doubt it. We’ll be here long after the dragons have swallowed you and yours.

CHIPS.6018:

Nope. The dredge now continue to ally themselves with the Inquest and, furthermore, this new girl call Scarlet.

Er… nope.

They allied themselves with the Flame Legion, and recently Scarlet. However, we have nothing to say that the whole dredge are allied with them.

Same goes for the Flame Legion. And that’s something you seem to be unclear about.

CHIPS.6018:

The whole reason for the civil war was to overthrow Shukov, because he decided to ally with the Inquest. But somehow the new government decides to continue this alliance?

Not quite. The civil war was because the Moletariate was enslaving their own race.

CHIPS.6018:

And keeping in the mind that Dredge rarely trust anyone, even older races, why in the world would they suddenly trust a total stranger in Scarlet?

TO quote War Minister Shukov:

_With the aid of the Inquest, as their first-chosen of allies, we shall conquer the norn and charr, humble the sylvari, and put the ancient humans in their place. _

Asura and sylvari seem to be the race they’re most relating to. And Shukov holds a further implication when tied with what’s said about the potential age of the Molten Alliance – maybe they were already working with Scarlet then… but when the dredge/Inquest alliance failed, Scarlet paired them with Flame Legion.

TL;DR
You seem to make three drastic assumptions you hold no way to prove or even support:

• The whole of the groups are allied to Scarlet.
• The MA was formed out of fear of Scarlet.
• They dropped their former beliefs in allying with Scarlet (neither Flame nor dredge ever held issues with sylvari).

Konig you don’t seem to understand what I am saying. I will try to break it down.

Q: Why would the Flame Legion ally with the Dredge?
A: Because Flame Legion needs technology.

Konig you agree to this yourself. My point is this makes zero sense if you think about what the Flame Legion represents.

The Flame Legions are religious zealots that believe in the magic of their god. The core belief that holds this group together is the belief that “our god and magic is the most powerful thing in the world.” If they lose this belief, and instead have to rely on technology (e.g. technology is their new god), this group is gone.

Answer this question: How can a religious zealous group stay together, if they ADMIT that their god and magic sucks and technology is the way to go?

The very core of the Flame Legion’s lore is at stake here. That’s what doesn’t sit well with me in this whole Scarlet story. It is destroying important lore of other groups.

As for assumptions, you are doing the same thing. You are assuming that the Flame Legion can even survive as an united group, when their priests openly admits that their god and magic sucks.

Its the same thing with the dredge.

Q: Why would the Dredge ally with the Flame Legion?
A: Because they need magic.

“Freedom and independence from any outsider” is the very core belief of the Dredge. And now suddenly their leadership is admitting that they are not strong enough for freedom? That they need to “depend” on the Flame Legion’s magic to get “independence”?

Think about it. They need to “depend on someone else for their independence”? If the Dredge have any chance of believing in this, they won’t need to be fighting against absolutely everyone and see everyone as future enslavers.

The new Dredge civil war (recently finished) has nothing to do with the people being enslaved by fellow Dredges. That has been happening for ages, well before the GW2 timeline. Sure there are a few rebels that sees this as a problem. But the great majority of the Dredge have no problem being a slave to a fellow dredge, if they believe this eventually works toward a greater goal and purpose.

The main reason for this new civil war was because Shukov decided to rely on Asura technology. To be “depended on someone else for their independence” is what caused this new civil war. Because this, obviously, counters everything that the Dredge believed in.

Answer this question: How can an extreme group who believe in “freedom and independence from any outsider” stay together, if they ADMIT that they need to rely on magic from someone else for their independence? Not them mention they just overthrew Shukov for this exact reason.

Once again, the core lore of the Dredge is being ruined by this Scarlet story.

Sure perhaps not everyone likes the MA. But until I see a Flame Legion member and Dredge member rebel against the MA, I have to assume that they don’t exist or are too small to make a difference.

The Molten Alliance doesn’t use regular plain Jane technology. They use magi-tech, magi- being the point. It’s a fusion of the Flame Legion’s magic and the Dredge’s technology, and it compliments them both.

To the Flame Legion, it isn’t a matter of them saying they need to rely on the technology, because their magic “sucks”. It is them say, “With this technology, our magics are even more powerful!”.

The same can be said with the Dredge. They aren’t depending on the Flame Legion’s magic. Them joining forces, to form the Molten Alliance, was an alliance of convenience for both sides. (Brought to you by Scarlet!) The Dredge get some of the FL’s magic to build more powerful machines, and the FL got technology to enhance their magics and abilities.

Alright CHIPS, I’m going to give you my personal reading of this situation so that you can make some sense of it in your mind.

IMO, the Molten Alliance probably didn’t start working together until after Gaheron’s death and the start of the civil war for the dredge. I won’t get into why I believe this, but there is nothing to directly prove me wrong at this point so choosing to believe it is not against the given lore. At this point in time I do not believe that the whole of the Flame Legion or the whole of the dredge joined this alliance. My assumption would be that the Flame Legion that first joined up with the dredge would have been one of the multiple sects that were fighting within their own mini civil war. If I remember right from the Citadel of Flame explorable mail, the Flame Legion are at war with each other for power, similarly to how the Nightmare Court looked after Faolain fled. Because of this it makes sense that the early start of the Molten Alliance could have been started by a single group of these Flame Legion charr. I mean think of the desperation you are feeling after a rag-tag group of people come in and demolish your army and kill your leader/god. The Flame Legion are desperate and their magic HAS failed them. They cannot surrender to the other legions, so their only hope is to find someone or something else.

Similarly you have the dredge. Their leaders have had the floor literally drop out from underneath them. Their workers are now fighting against them for a better future for all dredge. And whether or not you want to believe that the dredge aren’t fighting because of being enslaved by their own, it is made very clear in Frostgorge Sound that this is the main reason multiple dredge are joining the cause. Because of this the leadership and those allied to it also need to find help.

Out of the blue comes Scarlet, who somehow speaks about a tempting alliance with each other and makes sense (crazy thought based on the dialogue we get from her in game). Thus far, it doesn’t seem like she was leading them at all. The dialogues from the end of Flame and Frost seemed like she just pointed them in each other’s direction and left it at that. What we see currently seems to have been more of her coming in afterwards and taking control of those that remained (surely some Molten Facilities didn’t get raided) and moving them to a new location, possibly with the Aetherblades backing her.

It isn’t perfect, but my point is, WE actually laid all of the groundwork for her plans in the first place. By us destroying their faith in their systems, we gave them doubts that Scarlet was able to originally fulfill.

I also want to take a moment and point out. However many Molten Alliance are killed in the Invasions, the numbers are actually quite small compared to the Aetherblades. So this may be pointing to their lesser numbers.

Erukk.1408:

The Molten Alliance doesn’t use regular plain Jane technology. They use magi-tech, magi- being the point. It’s a fusion of the Flame Legion’s magic and the Dredge’s technology, and it compliments them both.

To the Flame Legion, it isn’t a matter of them saying they need to rely on the technology, because their magic “sucks”. It is them say, “With this technology, our magics are even more powerful!”.

The same can be said with the Dredge. They aren’t depending on the Flame Legion’s magic. Them joining forces, to form the Molten Alliance, was an alliance of convenience for both sides. (Brought to you by Scarlet!) The Dredge get some of the FL’s magic to build more powerful machines, and the FL got technology to enhance their magics and abilities.

Oh I agree that magi-tech (magic+technology) is stronger. No problem. And this is the logical thing to do if we are talking about logical people.

However we are not talking about some logical Charrs here. We are talking about some religious fanatics. The Flame Legion leadership is clearly saying that their god and his magic alone is “not good enough”. That’s why they need to use technology to form magi-tech.

Strategically sound, but political suicide. Any Flame Legion priest that say this will be deemed a heretic and killed right away.

A real life example would be “Christian Scientists”, who refuse to use any modern medicine and believe that Jesus alone is enough to cure diseases. (no offense)

Now imagine their leadership coming out and say “Sorry guys, but Jesus is not good enough to heal us. We should use both medicines and prayer.”

Imagine the outcry.

Strategically sound, but political suicide.

Narcemus.1348:

Alright CHIPS, I’m going to give you my personal reading of this situation so that you can make some sense of it in your mind.

IMO, the Molten Alliance probably didn’t start working together until after Gaheron’s death and the start of the civil war for the dredge. I won’t get into why I believe this, but there is nothing to directly prove me wrong at this point so choosing to believe it is not against the given lore. At this point in time I do not believe that the whole of the Flame Legion or the whole of the dredge joined this alliance. My assumption would be that the Flame Legion that first joined up with the dredge would have been one of the multiple sects that were fighting within their own mini civil war. If I remember right from the Citadel of Flame explorable mail, the Flame Legion are at war with each other for power, similarly to how the Nightmare Court looked after Faolain fled. Because of this it makes sense that the early start of the Molten Alliance could have been started by a single group of these Flame Legion charr. I mean think of the desperation you are feeling after a rag-tag group of people come in and demolish your army and kill your leader/god. The Flame Legion are desperate and their magic HAS failed them. They cannot surrender to the other legions, so their only hope is to find someone or something else.

Similarly you have the dredge. Their leaders have had the floor literally drop out from underneath them. Their workers are now fighting against them for a better future for all dredge. And whether or not you want to believe that the dredge aren’t fighting because of being enslaved by their own, it is made very clear in Frostgorge Sound that this is the main reason multiple dredge are joining the cause. Because of this the leadership and those allied to it also need to find help.

Out of the blue comes Scarlet, who somehow speaks about a tempting alliance with each other and makes sense (crazy thought based on the dialogue we get from her in game). Thus far, it doesn’t seem like she was leading them at all. The dialogues from the end of Flame and Frost seemed like she just pointed them in each other’s direction and left it at that. What we see currently seems to have been more of her coming in afterwards and taking control of those that remained (surely some Molten Facilities didn’t get raided) and moving them to a new location, possibly with the Aetherblades backing her.

It isn’t perfect, but my point is, WE actually laid all of the groundwork for her plans in the first place. By us destroying their faith in their systems, we gave them doubts that Scarlet was able to originally fulfill.

I also want to take a moment and point out. However many Molten Alliance are killed in the Invasions, the numbers are actually quite small compared to the Aetherblades. So this may be pointing to their lesser numbers.

Actually surrendering to the Pact would be the logical move. The Pact has been presented as a group that’s more than reasonable.

Instead the Flame Legion choose to continue to fight for a god that they no longer have faith in. Why?

But yes it is possible that the Flame Legion and Dredge are fighting their own civil war right now over the Molten Alliance. We just hasn’t seen it. No Flame Legion member has been seen attacking a Molten Alliance member.

Like I said my biggest beef is that the Scarlet story is shaking up the core beliefs and values of other groups. Its changing these groups into something else. And without these core beliefs and values, the groups becomes empty. They represent nothing. They just attacks the good guys because they hate the good guys so much. And this is exactly what will kill any depth in the story.

The Separatists might as well just give up and join back with Ebonhawke, and the Nightmare court might as well just give up and join back with the Pale Tree. Without any core beliefs and values, why bother fighting on?

That’s exactly what Scarlet wants. She wants to change the status quo.

The Flame Legion and Dredge who took part in the Molten Alliance are those who probably think that just because you’re Dredge or Flame Legion doesn’t mean I have to follow the system or mind set and prejudices of their own sides. And Scarlet loves that train of thought.

It’s not like the whole of the Dredge and Flame Legion are a part of the Molten Alliance. Probably like Mormons are to Christians. They believe in the same thing, but are going about it differently.

We just need more details in Scarlet’s involvement with everything.

CHIPS.6018:

Konig you don’t seem to understand what I am saying.

Vice versa.

CHIPS.6018:

Q: Why would the Flame Legion ally with the Dredge?
A: Because Flame Legion needs technology.

Konig you agree to this yourself. My point is this makes zero sense if you think about what the Flame Legion represents.

The Flame Legions are religious zealots that believe in the magic of their god. The core belief that holds this group together is the belief that “our god and magic is the most powerful thing in the world.” If they lose this belief, and instead have to rely on technology (e.g. technology is their new god), this group is gone.

The Flame Legion are religious. True. They are zealots. True. They believe in the magic of their god. True. You’re wrong on two things though:

1. The Flame Legion know how to adapt to failures. Gaheron died. He failed to become a god. They’re adapting to what killed him – technology.
2. Gaheron was treated like a god, but he was merely in the process of “becoming” a god. He was not their god yet.

CHIPS.6018:

Answer this question: How can a religious zealous group stay together, if they ADMIT that their god and magic sucks and technology is the way to go?

See above. They realize their mistakes and they adapt. Same reason why they changed their gods from the Titans to the Destroyers. When the Destroyers failed as replacements they realized that they shouldn’t rely on outside sources but themselves, so they focused on turning one of their own – their imperator – into a god.

They are zealots, they are religious, they rely on magical caste system. But they do not remain static. They evolve their weapons to what works.

This has been the core of the Flame Legion since Eye of the North and resolidified with the entire reason why they tried to turn Gaheron into a god. Their lore is not at stake. It is not changing their core beliefs.

CHIPS.6018:

As for assumptions, you are doing the same thing. You are assuming that the Flame Legion can even survive as an united group, when their priests openly admits that their god and magic sucks.

Who says they’re a united group? Not I.

Who says their priests openly admits that their god and magic sucks? No priest I’ve seen or heard. That’s one of your assumptions.

CHIPS.6018:

Q: Why would the Dredge ally with the Flame Legion?
A: Because they need magic.

“Freedom and independence from any outsider” is the very core belief of the Dredge. And now suddenly their leadership is admitting that they are not strong enough for freedom? That they need to “depend” on the Flame Legion’s magic to get “independence”?

Think about it. They need to “depend on someone else for their independence”? If the Dredge have any chance of believing in this, they won’t need to be fighting against absolutely everyone and see everyone as future enslavers.

The new Dredge civil war (recently finished) has nothing to do with the people being enslaved by fellow Dredges. That has been happening for ages, well before the GW2 timeline. Sure there are a few rebels that sees this as a problem. But the great majority of the Dredge have no problem being a slave to a fellow dredge, if they believe this eventually works toward a greater goal and purpose.

The main reason for this new civil war was because Shukov decided to rely on Asura technology. To be “depended on someone else for their independence” is what caused this new civil war. Because this, obviously, counters everything that the Dredge believed in.

You got so many wrongs here that I’d have expected your post to be a Wooden Potatoes video…

You really need to replay Sorrow’s Embrace explorable mode, and take a visit to the southwest corner of Frostgorge Sound.

Firstly, the civil war was still ongoing last we heard – even spread from Sorrow’s Embrace up to Frostgorge Sound (though it’s never really stated to be linked, I think, there’s still a revolution there for the exact same reason).

Secondly, allying with the Inquest wasn’t the problem. It was the enslavery. Again I’ll point to SE.

Rasolov’s path was 100% about freeing the enslaved workers.
Fergg’s path was to kick the Inquest out, the entire path and Fergg’s involvement being about the Inquest experimenting on and enslaving the dredge. At the end the PC even warns Fergg about remaining – if its found he’s a former Inquest, he’d be killed for having enslaved the dredge.
Koptev’s path was about the government being corrupt.
Frostgorge is about freeing the enslaved dredge.

So your claim that the civil war has nothing to do with self-enslavery is completely wrong. It should also be noted that the revolutionaries openly accept outside help and there’s even hints that they’ll continue working with outsiders:

Rasolov: I don’t know if the rebellion will spread, but today my friends will be treated fairly. I was raised to hate outsiders and believe that our leaders care for us.
Rasolov: And yet Shukov was ready to put us in chains, just as the dwarves once did. And today a group of outsiders helped me stop Shukov. Remarkable!

CHIPS.6018:

Answer this question: How can an extreme group who believe in “freedom and independence from any outsider” stay together, if they ADMIT that they need to rely on magic from someone else for their independence? Not them mention they just overthrew Shukov for this exact reason.

Once again, the core lore of the Dredge is being ruined by this Scarlet story.

That’s the rules drilled into them, however, with Sorrow’s Embrace we see that belief began to crumble. Scarlet didn’t start the removal of that mentality. Shukov did – and we helped.

Plus:
“For the fire, of course. We needed their fire magic to bolster the collective. With our hybrid weapons, we’d never have to worry about being conquered again. We believed them.
“Shame on me? Shame on my leaders! They let themselves be seduced by power. We were fine until we got greedy. Evil trickster! Evil!”
And so on about being tricked and seduced by the “silver-tongued” city-slicker. This implies that it was Shukov – who was seeking enslaving outside forces – who had began working with Scarlet… and the Flame Legion entered the fray after Sorrow’s Embrace, which would mean that the dredge who were enslaving their own in the first place was also the ones who led the MA.

Again, the civil war is on-going as far as we know. And it’s implied – to me at least – that the MA dredge were the ones that were losing, those formerly in power, who were desperate for power, and despite their proclamations to their people very willing to work with outsiders to give themselves power.

CHIPS.6018:

However we are not talking about some logical Charrs here. We are talking about some religious fanatics.

Actually, we’re talking about logical religious fanatics.

Sounds contradictory, but it rather isn’t. To quote a Shaman from Eye of the North:

Torg Bloodspine: "The meat . . . the humans . . . are in the south, in the Sacnoth Valley. The Hierophant means to feed them to our new gods.
<Party leader>: “Those are not gods.”
Torg Bloodspine: “Do you think we care? What matters is that others think they are.”

The Flame Legion have a history of proclaiming selkittennowledged lies to keep power. They adapt when their plans fail.

I’m thinking here, the issue for you CHIPS is that you’re missing things that aren’t seen pointblank to everyone. You’re for one reason or another not seeing the full story, and that’s leading to your confusion. While yes, there are some oddities in the dredge and Flame Legion that joined the Molten Alliance… these issues are far from new, so why do you bring them up now? Plus, they are hardly as drastic as you’re claiming. These oddities are far from shaking the “core values and beliefs” of the dredge. The Flame Legion’s core beliefs are fully unphased by Scarlet and the Molten Alliance. The dredge’s core beliefs were shaking by the players themselves before Scarlet showed her ugly head.

^ I got nothing to add.

Um, I’m not a lore nut… but If anyone has played through one of the sylvari personal story pathlines, we meet a Sylvari who is not of the Pale Tree. And it is shown that there may be more Groves elsewhere. The Alternate universe theory may be sound, but maybe she is of another Tree, or maybe even the SAME tree as Malyck. I don’t know if anyone has brought it up, haven’t reread this thread in a while. /shrug just thought I would add something to help with the mystery, if it helps at all.

Mepheles.2087:

Um, I’m not a lore nut… but If anyone has played through one of the sylvari personal story pathlines, we meet a Sylvari who is not of the Pale Tree. And it is shown that there may be more Groves elsewhere. The Alternate universe theory may be sound, but maybe she is of another Tree, or maybe even the SAME tree as Malyck. I don’t know if anyone has brought it up, haven’t reread this thread in a while. /shrug just thought I would add something to help with the mystery, if it helps at all.

The only reason of the alternate universe idea is there is because scarlet has steam creatures in her army, which are confirmed to be from an alternate timeline.

There is however no evidence to support Scarlet is from an alternate universe and even evidence against it as Vorpp recognized her.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Mepheles.2087:

Um, I’m not a lore nut… but If anyone has played through one of the sylvari personal story pathlines, we meet a Sylvari who is not of the Pale Tree. And it is shown that there may be more Groves elsewhere. The Alternate universe theory may be sound, but maybe she is of another Tree, or maybe even the SAME tree as Malyck. I don’t know if anyone has brought it up, haven’t reread this thread in a while. /shrug just thought I would add something to help with the mystery, if it helps at all.

The only reason of the alternate universe idea is there is because scarlet has steam creatures in her army, which are confirmed to be from an alternate timeline.

There is however no evidence to support Scarlet is from an alternate universe and even evidence against it as Vorpp recognized her.

Which brings me to my earlier post. If, like Malyck, she is not of the Pale Tree, Pale Tree would have no memory of her. Which means she either comes from another tree, with MUCH different values than the Pale tree, or maybe is the last child of her Mother Tree. Personally, I hope Malyck does return to shed some light on this.

She is of the Pale Tree. Sadly. It’s a confirmed fact. And she is of this Pale Tree. Another counter to the Alternative Reality theory is the fact that Caithe knew Ceara aka Scarlet Briar while she was in the Grove – e.g., the first 7 years of Scarlet’s life (or was it 8?).

The reason why the Pale Tree doesn’t just give us answers is because Ceara became a Soundless unintentionally (probably due to the sensory deprivation device used on her).