Guild Wars 2

Pale Tree gave us a lot of prophecies.
Personal Story-“A Light in the Darkness” She showed what could not happen ( Destiny’s Edge won’t be reunite). But she contained the future which happened- Trahearne as Leader.

And in Dragon’s Reach we got a vision.
As we know it was origins to Echoes of the Past.
We saw fading Pale Tree but one thing in a vision was the biggest prophecy for something what happened in HoT.

We saw the Egg and what couldn’t happen with it.
But when I saw a vision today I focused on the 4 lights.

Didn’t it be prophecy for something what happened after Mordremoth’s Death?

I think the Pale Tree’s prophecy has largely come to pass. The lesser lights were the activation of the watchposts around Tarir, the greater light the egg, and the surrounding vines were Mordremoth’s siege on Tarir. It didn’t happen precisely as she envisaged (the Shadow of the Dragon was already dead by then, for instance), but it’s close enough to be recognisable.

That always makes me wonder if all dragon champions have the ability to makes prophecies, or if it was just random chance that the two uncorrupted champs we know (Glint and the Pale Tree) both have this power.

I think they come from different sources. Glint seems to have basically been Hari Seldon from the Foundation series, if Seldon could read minds and stay alive for centuries to continue managing his psychohistorical plans. The Pale Tree, on the other tree, gets her prophecies from the Dream, which has a genuine ability to offer glimpses of possible futures.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

That always makes me wonder if all dragon champions have the ability to makes prophecies, or if it was just random chance that the two uncorrupted champs we know (Glint and the Pale Tree) both have this power.

It’s quite possible that all dragon champions have this power, but only the ones that break ‘out’ of the system are aware of it. From what Zhaitan and Mordremoth’s minions showed us, they have somewhat of a hive mind to their ED. The ED believe they are undefeatable, as Zhaitan and Mordremoth’s comments showed us in the past, so they wouldn’t bother looking at the possible courses of events.

However, since both the Pale Tree and Glint broke out of the hive mind, they have reason to look at the timeline, understanding their own place in it and what needs to be done to their former masters, to save the current races. Adding into this the time we saw the Eternal Alchemy, where we saw a white center entity (Tyria itself, or at least this place on the Mists), and 6 circular orbs around it, like cogs in a machine, it can be stated that the dragons have this power simply because they are ‘necessary’ to this realm’s balance. They’d need to see when to wake up to keep the magical power in the world at stable levels.

Hmm…now that my mind is on that center light, another theory is pulsing in my head about Tyria itself being a final ED, but that’s a theory for another day.

draxynnic.3719:

I think they come from different sources. Glint seems to have basically been Hari Seldon from the Foundation series, if Seldon could read minds and stay alive for centuries to continue managing his psychohistorical plans. The Pale Tree, on the other tree, gets her prophecies from the Dream, which has a genuine ability to offer glimpses of possible futures.

I don’t think Glint’s prophecizing is mere logical deduction on the basis of culture, common reactions, and historical events.

If what the Exalted and the last Forgotten say is true to the word, then Glint literally foresaw her death; if her wording in EoD is any indication, she saw that Kralkatorrik would die if and only if all of Destiny’s Edge fought together – despite the fact that they never fought a foe like an Elder Dragon (read: zero previous indication to base such off of).

It seemed that she really did have the ability of seeing the future, rather than ‘merely’ guessing it with a very tiny margin of error.

But Glint is also stated to be a fully unique dragon in her own right due to her telepathy to all nearby minds. It wouldn’t be a stretch to say that she’s also unique because she gets glimpses of the future.

draxynnic.3719:

I think the Pale Tree’s prophecy has largely come to pass. The lesser lights were the activation of the watchposts around Tarir, the greater light the egg, and the surrounding vines were Mordremoth’s siege on Tarir. It didn’t happen precisely as she envisaged (the Shadow of the Dragon was already dead by then, for instance), but it’s close enough to be recognisable.

Actually, looking back, I’m not sure the vision was a prophecy at all. It seemed more like she was trying to communicate knowledge without any reference to timescale- for instance, we see the egg dropping into the beam of light that’s probably telling us to take it to Tarir in the future, but then it seems to be back in Glint’s Lair, where the Master of Peace had already removed it seemingly years before.

In that sense, seeing as the Shadow of the Dragon was there, and assuming that it wasn’t just a warning that the Shadow was hunting for the egg, I wonder if what we were actually seeing was Tarir waking up right at that moment. Something seemed to call the Shadow away from the Grove in a heck of a hurry, before its job was done, and we know the Exalted awoke shortly before Heart of Thorns but never really got a when or why. Maybe, instead of just general mordrem activity, it was in response to the Master bringing the egg within a certain range? Or maybe even to something he specifically detoured to do along the way? ANet likes to play fast and loose with timescales, but even so, five LW episodes seems like a long time to get from central Dry Top to southwest Silverwastes unless he was doing more than travelling.

Furthering on what Aaron said, nothing really says the vision is a prophecy. The only prophecy the Pale Tree gave was during A Light in the Darkness, and she admitted that the future changes with every choice, so what she showed was only one possible future.

Glaust’s entire purpose as a champion was to read the minds of Kralkatorrik’s enemies and predict what they might do against her master, which indicates that Kralkatorrik and Glaust at least were aware that there were threats against Kralkatorrik that needed to be predicted. So if Glaust had true power of prophecy, there’s no reason why she wouldn’t have also employed that on behalf of her master. (Even with her powerful, long-ranged mind-reading it raises the question of how the Forgotten managed to catch her for the ritual – presumably they had some means of hiding their intentions…)

All of Glint’s ‘prophecies’ are, I think, something that can be explained from her knowledge of how sapient beings think. She was probably the closest thing to being omniscient on Tyria, apparently being able to listen in on the thoughts of pretty much any lesser being she wanted and from that get an idea of both what they’re doing now and what they might be likely to do in the future. The Flameseeker Prophecies really feel to me like the sort of thing that could have happened due to Glint setting up a series of proverbial dominoes with the knowledge that someone would eventually knock them down through her knowledge of the mindset of humans, dwarves, charr, and mursaat. Regarding the events of Edge of Destiny, Glint no doubt knew that Jennah was in Ebonhawke, Kralkatorrik would pass and likely attack Ebonhawke, Jennah would call to Logan for help, and Logan leaving would reduce the group’s chance of success – no true prophecy is required there, simply a good knowledge of current events.

Conversely, the Pale Tree’s prophetic abilities appear to come from the Dream – similar to the Wyld Hunts of the sylvari, but the Pale Tree has a stronger connection and can actually see what the Dream is trying to communicate, while sylvari just get feelings of what the Dream wants to do.

It’s possible that there is a common thread granting prophecy to free dragon champions. There does seem to be at least one (semi-)sentience active on Tyria (that of the Dream) that seems to be hostile to the Elder Dragons and has some degree of ability to predict the future. It’s possible that the Dream has the ability to grant prophecies to sufficiently magically powerful beings, but due to its hostility to the Elder Dragons it doesn’t grant them to dragon minions. Free-willed dragon champions would then fit the criteria of “sufficiently magically powerful to receive prophecies” and “not a minion of an Elder Dragon”.

However, there’s no evidence that Glint had access to the Dream. It’s possible she did, but simply didn’t mention it. It’s also possible that if she was receiving true prophecies, it came from some other source.

Come to think of it, one possibility worth considering is that the norn historian in the Special Collections says that the lesser orbs represent ‘spirit realms’, rather than the Elder Dragons per se, even if they are obviously connected to the dragons. It’s possible that the spirit realms are not inherently tied to the dragons, even though much of the power of each one is presently claimed by a dragon, and they actively want to be freed from the dragons. In this interpretation, it’s possible that the Dream is the spirit realm that was associated with Mordremoth, while Glint may have received a power of prophecy from the spirit realm that has been enslaved by Kralkatorrik.

draxynnic.3719:

The Flameseeker Prophecies really feel to me like the sort of thing that could have happened due to Glint setting up a series of proverbial dominoes with the knowledge that someone would eventually knock them down through her knowledge of the mindset of humans, dwarves, charr, and mursaat.

So you’re saying that Glint knew humanity, charr, dwarves, and mursaat so well that she knew that

1) Undead would assault a human kingdom.
2) A human kingdom will fall.
3) A prince of said human kingdom will cross the Shiverpeaks and die during the journey.
4) The Dwarves will go to civil war (keep in mind that the Stone Summit were formed under Jalis’ cousin, so it’s a recent group, not 800 years old).
5) Mursaat would return to the world (though we don’t have an exact date for when they did, Randall Greystone’s commentary in Arah implies it was shortly prior to GW1).

On top of the more predictable events such as mursaat slaughtering chosen to save their own hides, some of said chosen escaping the mursaat and seeking retribution – and despite all odds succeeding with Glint’s own help – and open the Door of Komalie, allowing the titans to finish wiping out the mursaat, before closing the Door and killing the leader of the undead army that attempted to control the titans.

And managed to predict through logical deduction that not only would all these rather specific events happen, but happen within the same few years?

I find that very hard to believe, in all honesty.

If you exclude the numbered points, which would have had zero indication of happening 800 years prior to the events of Prophecies, then I’d agree – seems like logical deduction from expert knowledge of culture, history, and racial behaviors with some proding on her part. But when you add in Meerak the Shouter’s lines, which are inscribed on the Flameseeker Prophecies legendary shield, and consider that she had no hand in the Stone Summit’s rise of power (at least there is zero indication of such and no indication for us to believe she did), it becomes unlikely.

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding the events of Edge of Destiny, Glint no doubt knew that Jennah was in Ebonhawke, Kralkatorrik would pass and likely attack Ebonhawke, Jennah would call to Logan for help, and Logan leaving would reduce the group’s chance of success – no true prophecy is required there, simply a good knowledge of current events.

You flipped around what she said though. She did not say “you will fail if you do not work together” – as such a comment implies they may fail even if they do work together. She said “if you work together, you have a chance of succeeding”. There’s no reason to believe that this group of six individuals would have a sliver of a chance against an awoken Elder Dragon that can corrupt everything with its breath.

draxynnic.3719:

It’s possible that there is a common thread granting prophecy to free dragon champions.

Unless we find Malyck’s tree and find out it has the gift of foresight, I’m going to go on a gander and say that there isn’t.

As you pointed out, Glint seems to have had this ability even while under Kralkatorrik’s command, and there’s no reason to believe that Mordremoth couldn’t pull off what the Pale Tree did due to his connection to the Dream. Might have even been why he decided to twist Scarlet, assault various forts across the continent, and take down the fleet asap, rather than assuming control of the jungle and building up a true minion army before folks could be truly convinced he’s a threat.

Might even be how Mordremoth knew to attack the Grove when the world leaders were there – if he did.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

draxynnic.3719:

The Flameseeker Prophecies really feel to me like the sort of thing that could have happened due to Glint setting up a series of proverbial dominoes with the knowledge that someone would eventually knock them down through her knowledge of the mindset of humans, dwarves, charr, and mursaat.

So you’re saying that Glint knew humanity, charr, dwarves, and mursaat so well that she knew that

1) Undead would assault a human kingdom.
2) A human kingdom will fall.
3) A prince of said human kingdom will cross the Shiverpeaks and die during the journey.
4) The Dwarves will go to civil war (keep in mind that the Stone Summit were formed under Jalis’ cousin, so it’s a recent group, not 800 years old).
5) Mursaat would return to the world (though we don’t have an exact date for when they did, Randall Greystone’s commentary in Arah implies it was shortly prior to GW1).

I considered those points, actually. The whole concept of psychohistory in the Foundation series is that it made surprisingly accurate predictions up to more than a thousand years in the future (albeit with the aid of a secret society keeping things on track, but Glint had that too…) based on seeing the existing trends in society and seeing how the knock-on effects would develop. Now, in that series things did eventually go off the rails, but that happened due to a fluke that genuinely could not have been predicted (the rise of a mutant with powerful telepathic abilities in a setting that previously didn’t have experience of such things). YMMV on whether such prediction is actually realistic, but the precedent is there in literature, so it’s reasonable to think that ArenaNet might be following that precedent in Glint’s prophecies rather than them necessarily being true prophecy.

I think it is possible to have predicted, at least in broad strokes (and the Flameseeker Prophecies do seem to be the kind of prophecy where it’s set out in vague terms so the reader recognises events when they happen rather than knowing exactly what is going to happen), the events of and around Prophecies. If there were mages looking to gain access to the Mists in Glint’s time, then it would have been reasonable to deduct that eventually one would succeed and weaken Abaddon’s prison, allowing Abaddon’s agents access to the world. The charr were already looking for a counter to human magic, so it would be reasonable to deduct that they would eventually contact Abaddon’s agents. The viziers of Orr may already have been influenced by Abaddon at the time, or it might be reasonable to deduct that one might at some stage discover Abaddon, and there’s your potential Flameseeker.

Tensions between the human kingdoms seemed to have already existed at the time, so it would be reasonable for Glint to extrapolate that eventually there would be war between Ascalon and Kryta across the Shiverpeaks. It would be reasonable to conclude that some dwarves would respond poorly to this and form into an isolationist faction. It would also be reasonable to presume that if the charr did get a secret weapon from Abaddon, they would time their attack for a time when the human kingdoms are weakened by fighting each other. This connects the Stone Summit with the Searing – both are developing from the same causes and can be expected to happen reasonably close together. It would then be reasonable to deduct that charr armies indirectly directed by Abaddon would proceed to Orr, and that a vizier might then use forbidden scrolls in an attempt to defend Orr (or under direction by Abaddon) – thus creating the conditions for the people of Orr to rise as undead.

The most specific thing there is Rurik dying in the Shiverpeaks… but it probably wouldn’t be hard to predict that, if there was an established king and an adult or near-adult heir at the time of the Searing, that the established king – a veteran of the wars against Kryta – would distrust Kryta while the prince would be more willing to go to Kryta for refuge and help. However, this is where the nonspecificity of the prophecy comes into play… Meerak just says that the prince is “doomed”. Doomed to what? Given the rest of the predictions, it wouldn’t be hard to predict that the prince in question is going to come to a bad end – whether death in battle or simply dying in exile. Glint didn’t need to know exactly what would happen to the heir of Ascalon to predict that he (or she, the original words of the prophecy may have been gender-neutral) would not like his (or her) fate.

The return of the mursaat is possibly the easiest thing of all to predict. The Prophecies themselves largely seem to have been dangled as bait to make the mursaat come out of hiding if they’re afraid the prophecy is about to come to pass – Glint probably knew how they would respond under the circumstances. It’s also possible that the mursaat had already secretly returned to Tyria at the time, or Glint knew that they were planning to, or Glint knew for some reason that at some point they would have to.

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding the events of Edge of Destiny, Glint no doubt knew that Jennah was in Ebonhawke, Kralkatorrik would pass and likely attack Ebonhawke, Jennah would call to Logan for help, and Logan leaving would reduce the group’s chance of success – no true prophecy is required there, simply a good knowledge of current events.

You flipped around what she said though. She did not say “you will fail if you do not work together” – as such a comment implies they may fail even if they do work together. She said “if you work together, you have a chance of succeeding”. There’s no reason to believe that this group of six individuals would have a sliver of a chance against an awoken Elder Dragon that can corrupt everything with its breath.

“If you work together, you have a chance of succeeding” also implies that they may fail even if they do work together. A chance means that it might not happen, after all.

Considering that they’d already beaten a series of champions, it’s entirely possible that she’d think they had a chance. It’s possible, too, that she’d figured out the same plan they did, and was just being polite enough to give them the chance to figure it out for themselves. Alternatively, it’s possible that she just knew that the more allies she had, the greater the chance of pulling off an upset. After all, she also didn’t tell them “okay, now you have no chance, you might as well run” after Logan left either.

draxynnic.3719:

It’s possible that there is a common thread granting prophecy to free dragon champions.

Unless we find Malyck’s tree and find out it has the gift of foresight, I’m going to go on a gander and say that there isn’t.

As you pointed out, Glint seems to have had this ability even while under Kralkatorrik’s command, and there’s no reason to believe that Mordremoth couldn’t pull off what the Pale Tree did due to his connection to the Dream. Might have even been why he decided to twist Scarlet, assault various forts across the continent, and take down the fleet asap, rather than assuming control of the jungle and building up a true minion army before folks could be truly convinced he’s a threat.

Might even be how Mordremoth knew to attack the Grove when the world leaders were there – if he did.[/quote]Except that Glint only seems to have had the mass mind-reading ability. If she’d had true foresight, odds are she would have predicted the ritual that was going to be performed and acted to prevent it… unless it was another case of a self-fulfilling prophecy and the knowledge of the threat itself put her in a position where it would work.

My point there was that Glint’s very role shows that the dragons, or at least Kralkatorrik, were aware that mortals could present a threat to them and had taken steps accordingly… and thus, if they had access to true prophecy, they would use it. However, Glint never says she had prophecy while she was still Glaust… just that her function as a champion of Kralkatorrik was mass mind-reading.