Guild Wars 2

Pretty simple… I’m wondering if there are parallels between the current five races standing against the dragons and the five who stood against them last time.

Currently we have Humans, Charr, Asura, Sylvari, and Norn.

The ancient races who faced the Elder Dragons were the Mursaat, Seers, Forgotten, Dwarves, and Jotun. So my question is, do you think, from what we know of the ancient races, there are parallels to the current races?

While I don’t know TOO much, I feel like the Forgotten might be parallel to Humans, Jotun parallel to Norn, and Mursaat parallel to Asura. Would that make Sylvari parallel to Seer, and Charr parallel to Dwarves?

That has been my theory for a long time, with exactly these match ups.

I posted it somewhere here on this forum, but I couldn’t find it. But it was a copy of an older Guru post anyway and that one I could find, so here we go:

Humans – Forgotten: Worship the Six and were once a dominating race, later pushed back into a melting pot. Also both were at war with the Charr once.

Charr – Dwarves: 2 Factions in a civil war, have access to magic, they rather use blackpowder, alchemy and steam though.

Asura – Mursaat: Master of magic technology (Golems- Jade constructs/ the already mentioned soul batteries – some asura energy storage devise, I bet they have some :P), but also arrogant and think of themselves as superior to everyone.

Norn – Jotun: Love a good fight and like to stay individual, though they Jotun have taken it to extreme by being xenophobic to even their own kind.

Sylvari – Seer: The most mysterious and alien, both have no real genders.

The problem with your conclusion is you are taking into effect what we see now as opposed to the past.

It’s highly likely that, in the instance some of our previous lore is wrong, the forgotten knew nothing about the gods and did not worship them until long after the dragon awakening. It is also worth noting that the forgotten weren’t a dominating race, merely a guardian race, and that their war with the charr wasn’t until long after the last dragon rising.

Similarly, the dwarven civil war was the same situation, they did not have a civil war that we know of until the time of prophecies.

Lastly, the norn-jotun relationship you bring up is very misconstrued when it comes down to the jotun as they used to be. They used to be a very advanced race with a lot of knowledge in the realm of astrology as well as magic. I don’t know much about their brutality, but what we know about their past doesn’t bring much of the aspects of the brawler to mind.

I know that it does not fit perfectly, but it’s just a fun theory and it still holds more merit than those countless dragons = human gods connections. However you seem to think that I only compare them how they were when the dragons were/are awake, which I don’t. I compare them overall, since comparing them during the influence of the dragon threat is impossible, we know to little about what happened back in the last cycle.

Humans – Forgotten: For the purpose of connecting them, it is not important when they started worshipping the same gods, it’s only important that both do and both take it very seriously. The dwarves for example, also worship the human gods, atleast some of them do. But it is not as big of a deal as it was to humans or Forgotten. Also you contradict yourself, you say Forgotten were a guardian race, which is information which came from the time when we thought the gods brought them to Tyria, like they did with the humans, but at the same time you put emphasis on their culture before the gods arrived.
Fact is, we know that the Forgotten were once more widespread and they declined. It’s possible that the humans drove them out of most areas, when they were still weakend from the last dragon cycle. The information that they were sheperds to the young races and were never ment to dominate the planet, seems to be something the humans came up with to justify their actions against them.
It’s pretty easy to see the similarities between the Forgotten and the humans, probably even the easiest of all. Both lost land to more aggressive races, both are powerful magic users, the Forgotten moreso than the humans and both heavily worship the Six.

Charr – Dwarves: This comes mostly form the fact that the Charr serve the role of standart fantasy dwarves in GW2. They are the stout race. They rather use their muscles and technology than magic, they have large mines, and the distrusts the elves (the humans in Tyria’s case). And since the GW dwarves are not too far away from standart fantasy dwarves, the comparison of course fits.
They even have a historical similarity, with the civil war. Now of course you can say “but Kryta had a civil war too!”. Yes, but the White Mantle, while religious fanatics, were actually not xenophobic, they even accepted worship of other gods to a degree, the Stone Summit and the Flame Legion however are both extremely xenophobic. Both are also more of a political faction, while the White Mantle started out as a religous group and only later became a political power. With the Flame Legion it was actually the other way round, they only later became a religous group. Same could be said about the Stone Summit, it seems that only after they lost their leadership in the battle of Thunderhead Keep, they turned to plan B and prepared to summon the Great Destroyer. However, that’s not necessarily a religious act, it’s only tied to their religion. They did not really worship the destroyers.

Norn – Jotun: I admit, this and the Sylvari – Seer ones are rather iffy. But to me it almost seems like the Norn were invented to be the counterpart of the Norn in this case. They were the only of the elder races which was not introduced in Prophecies, so I could see Anet making a 5th one, so they have a nice match up.
However, they do fit to some degree. It is mentioned that the Jotun lived in mountain fortresses, that were each lead by a king. Sounds familiar to the homestead with their individual founders and their descendants in my ears. It is also said they became obsessed with strength. How can they become obsessed with strength if they don’t value it already? I’m sure they were great scholars once, but at the same time, there are many indications that their current behavior did not come out of nowhere.

This has been brought up before, and in a way there are. But I disagree with BuddhaKeks’ linking the forgotten with humans and sylvari with seers. The forgotten would be sylvari. There is FAR greater connections between the sylvari and forgotten than sylvari and seers/humans and forgotten.

First, denote the Arah dungeon – a sylvari studies forgotten, a human studies seers, norn study jotun, and asura studies mursaat. In the second instance of the personal story The Source of Orr, these four scholars appear again with a fifth: a charr studying dwarves.

And there is parallel between the races.

Forgotten had magic to prevent corruption. Sylvari are immune to corruption and those large thorn vines they can make also are good for repelling Elder Dragon minions it seems (even better once improved by a certain asuran scholar). Furthermore, the forgotten were balance-keepers. And the sylvari are all about seeking both sides of the coin. They don’t fear the dark, and except the Nightmare Court, don’t avoid the light. As the kodan themselves say, the sylvari while not preaching balance innately know balance and keep to it. Both races are anti-Elder Dragon and pro-Balance. And implications give that both arrived during the Elder Dragons’ reign (this is going off of the minor implications that the last ED rise was between 2,000-3,000 years prior, and the timeline’s date of Forgotten arriving on Tyria in 1,768 BE is truth). There cannot be a greater comparison.

Dwarves were the least magical (in modern times at least) and most technological. Like the charr.

Mursaat were powerful spellcasters primarily who care more of themselves than others. Inquest were intended to repeat mursaat actions, and we know asura are magical geniuses.

Jotun are prideful and care for the legends of both themselves and their ancestors, baring large monuments that give testament to deeds of heroes, and hail from the Shiverpeak Mountains. Norn fit them perfectly.

Thus leave humans with the race we know the least about: seers. All we know of the seers is that they’re good with defensive magic (infusion), created the bloodstone, and were nearly wiped out by the mursaat. Humanity’s forte is defense and holding out through wars.

There is only one connection humans have with the Forgotten: they share the same faiths. That’s a weak connection, given no other faith is shared.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There is only one connection humans have with the Forgotten: they share the same faiths. That’s a weak connection, given no other faith is shared.

You seem to have completly overlooked my posts. Sharing the same faith is only one of my points.
But I agree that your connections seem plausible too. But Humans – Forgotten seems to make more sense to me than Sylvari – Forgotten. Look at it like this, just like the humans, the Forgotten are in a defensive position when we meet them for the first time in the Crystal Desert. They defended their last homeland against the Elonian invaders and managed to fortify some ruins.
At the same time you could say, the infusion against Spectral Agony is like the Sylvari using thorns to hold dragon minions at bay. The fact that it’s used for Seer used it for defense isn’t a very compelling arguement in my eyes, it could fit both humans and Sylvari. However if anything, than there is a stronger connection to Sylvari, since the infusion makes you immune to spectral agony, just like the Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption (atleast Zhaitans). Now you can say, Sylvari’s immunity is natural, Seers have to make it themselves, however at the same time you could argue that the Pale Tree gives them immunity, maybe the Sylvari born from different trees are in fact not immune. In that case, I would say the Sylvari are much closer to the Seers.
However I admit that this is pure speculation.

I’ll admit I didn’t read your posts. I was replying to the OP after all, and just glanced at your post. I wasn’t caring to debunk your thoughts, merely provide my own.

I disagree that the forgotten are in a defensive position in the Crystal Desert. They weren’t pushed back there by force. Nor are they being assaulted. That’s just their home that they chose to live in rather than have conflict with the imbalanced humans. The only time they defended themselves was when the Elonians took them for mindless beasts, where they completely slaughtered the Elonians that didn’t kill each other in civil war. And the forgotten hold no fortified ruins – those are Elonia ruins. They’re hardly a defending race.

I cannot see a comparison between Infusion and the thorns sylvari use. They’re countering two different things and the important thing to note is the races’ counter to Elder Dragons. Infusion wouldn’t do kitten against Elder Dragon corruption – if anything, its just like adding seasoning to a meal. Forgotten magic, however, is immune to corruption – just like sylvari and their magic appear to be. This is the main point to make.

The seers hold no immunity, no counter to Elder Dragons, no nothing. The only thing they have is the ability to starve Elder Dragons via the Bloodstone.

And no, Infusion is not comparable to sylvari immunity. Why? Infusion isn’t natural. Furthermore, it only strengthens defenses – you can still be harmed by Spectral Agony. Sylvari immunity, however, while leads to death over corruption, holds no benefit to the Elder Dragons. It’s a full on counter-measure.

And by the way, the immunity is beyond Zhaitan – it was mention before release that rather than becoming a dragon minion, sylvari simply die when corruption would take them. Zhaitan doesn’t corrupt the living, so the example given would only count for Jormag and Kralkatorrik, who do corrupt living. As it stands, only Mordremoth, Primordus, and the DSD might be capable of corrupting sylvari.

Another tie between seers and humans: Both are races brought to the brink of the end during the rise of the Elder Dragons, but not because of the Elder Dragons. Humans are being brought down by charr and centaur, while seers were by seers.

To summarize:

Forgotten/Sylvari similarities

• Immunity to dragon corruption
• New to the world while Elder Dragons are awake (if indications on when the previous rise was is correct)
• Promotes balance
• Both are initially taken for mindless beasts/plants – forgotten by Elonians, sylvari by asura
• Sylvari scholar researching forgotten in Arah

Seer/Sylvari similarities

• Mysterious, little known about
• Holds counter-measures to a strong force (Infusion to Spectral Agony; immunity to dragon corruption)
• …?

Seer/Human similarities

• Brought to the wall while Elder Dragons were awake, but not by Elder Dragons
• Are good with defenses
• Human scholar researching seers in Arah
• Seers were once strong allies to the mursaat; humans were once strong allies to the asura (mursaat/asura correlation assumed – sylvari are no better allies to the asura than norn or charr are to them, human and asura have a stronger ties however due to the Shining Blade) – yes, this one is a bit of a stretch

Forgotten/Human similarities

• Follow the Six
• Supposedly come from the Mists; does come from the Mists
• One goes to the Crystal Desert of own free will rather than fighting wars; the other are pushed to the wall (not that similar)
• …?

The main things to note are the similarities of the old races during the ED rise, to the new races of this ED rise. And there, you have far more similarities in what I say.

The issue with tying seers with any race is that we know next to nothing about them still.

As it stands, we need to be careful of the asura. Else they’ll wipe out the humans to near extinction,

I guess it would be smart of me to listen to the OP. In my mind it would be smartest to match the correlation between the races in how they were during dragon risings, because this major situation brought out the greatest aspects of each race, much like they are doing now with the current races. In those scenarios certain races were much more advanced than their current state (jotun) and other races were distinctly different in their mindsets (seer/mursaat). That being said this is the OP’s topic so I will follow your scenario which seems to be matching the Elder Races as we last knew them (mostly in this instance how we saw them in GW Prophecies/Eye of the North). I say as we last knew them because of the fact that most of the Elder Races are nowhere to be found in the current version of the game.

So in this instance:

The dwarves that we are comparing are the dwarves stuck in their civil war situation, before dooming their race to the Blessing of the Great Dwarf.

The mursaat are a vastly advanced race both magically and technologically.

The Jotun, since we see them in GW2, are a brutal race. They mainly live in small, almost steading like, groups.

The Seer are a vastly mysterious race. All that is really known is they were allied to the Mursaat and betrayed, and that they had some know how with magic, enough to trap it all within the bloodstone.

The Forgotten were caretakers, I like to think of them almost like gardeners. They would pull out weeds here or there to make the garden stay safe, but they are mostly peaceful and balanced.

In my mind the smartest correlations are as follows:

Dwarves/Charr: In the specifically stated scenario above you are absolutely right the dwarves and the charr are the most complimentary group. They are vastly technologically advanced without much reliance on the use of magic. There is the deal with the personality though. Dwarves were very much more benevolent than the charr (not including their xenophobic friends).

Asura/Mursaat: You are very much right here again. They are both very magically advanced, though apparently in differing ways. Mursaat never seem to have moved on to the level of technology that the asura have grown to be accustomed in the past years. I would also like to point out that the asura plotting for world domination is very similar to the way that the mursaat worked in post dragon times.

Forgotten/Sylvari: I do believe this grouping makes the most sense to me. Nowhere in the texts that we can see do the gods seem to tell the forgotten to conquer, instead they just seem to tell them to keep the world safe, and help it flourish. This connects very well with how the sylvari seem to work. They do not conquer, they merely move into areas with the motivation of removing the evil. Once the area is cleansed they move on. The correlation between the forgotten magic which removes corruption and the sylvari trait which keeps them from getting corrupted is also undeniable.

Jotun/Norn: As they currently are you are right as well. The jotun are the most brutal of the still existing elder races, because of this they fit in best with the norn. The fact that the jotun also seem to live mostly in small steading like enclaves as opposed to large civilizations seems to point in that direction as well.

Humans/Seer: It has been mentioned that both are very defense oriented, which is very true. Humanity has had the tenacity to stay one step ahead of one of the disputably most advanced races in Tyria (the charr). And the instance of the seer creating the bloodstone as a kill switch for the Elder Dragons seems like something that a human would do in a near hopeless situation. I do want to point out that, interestingly enough, the bloodstone has moved out of the Seer sphere of influence and into the human one, because of the fact that to re-unite it, a human (specifically of the line of Doric) would be required.

I haven’t seen mursaat technology. What are you talking about? Their towers and teleporters are 100% magical.

We assault a Mursaat stronghold in GW1. They have magical constructs, defense towers, and teleporters. The soul batteries struck me as magical too.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I haven’t seen mursaat technology. What are you talking about? Their towers and teleporters are 100% magical.

Yanno, so is the Asuran tech.

What about the Tengu? I know in game they are mostly hands off and waiting to see what happens, but given they have a large area to themselves I assume there’s lots of them around. At least one is helping the pact, and several are fighting corruption in Kessex Hills.

Tengu are also major candidates for the next playable race. If that happens, we’ll have 6 races versus the now 4 dragons (maybe 5 with Mordremoth)

By technology I was mostly talking about magical constructs along the lines of jade constructs (Golems) and things of this sort. Their “technology” to me seems very similar to a less advanced asuran race tampering with magic to infuse it into objects and create objects much like what can be found in a more highly advanced state in asuran cities.

By the way, 90% of Asuran Technology is magical as well. They have just found ways to use magic through another form.