Guild Wars 2

So Lazarus is back, the players aren’t Ascended or Weh No Su and he can appear invisible to us if we like. I imagine if we’re going to fight Lazarus, we’ll need to be able to see him all the time.

What this means is that we potentially need to Ascend. I am deeply concerned that such an important part of the lore, especially for human characters, will just be waved off by some device Taimi found or made in Rata Novice, or some ritual the Priory just HAPPENED to know about that can be conduct pretty much wherever. This is would not do justice to Ascension.

Please don’t just write this off with some Magitech crap. Yes, Asuran interventions DEFINITELY have a place, but not here. Please don’t do what I’m worried you’re going to do.

Well quite a few people are expecting us to go to the Crystal Desert in the next expansion, so maybe we’ll find enough of the original Ascension sites still in tact to be able to do it there.

Although GW1 never really made it clear what Ascension actually involves, in spite of showing us 2 different versions of the process. The Crystal Desert rituals were created by the Kournans, who never actually succeeded so it could well be that a lot of what they involved isn’t necessary at all and the Canthan version is completely different.

Also, the effects of Ascension given on the GW1 wiki are allowing you to:

• Enter The Mists
• Learn new skills (2nd professions)
• Unlock hidden reserves of power with the right help
• See the spirits of the dead, and other spirits from the Mists when they’d normally be hidden.

In practical terms it allowed us to enter the elite missions (Underworld, Fissue of Woe, Tomb of the Primeval Kings etc.), choose and change secondary professions, and preceeded the missions where we could get our armour infused to reduce the damage done by mursaat’s spectral agony and where we’d see large numbers of mursaat or (in Factions) Shiro. (You didn’t actually need to ascend to see the mursaat, if you went to those maps early they’d still be there and you could still get your equipment infused by going to Mineral Springs.)

However Nightfall characters could do all of those things without completing either ascension mission. And then there’s Lord Odran, one of the first humans to enter the Mists who did it using “a spell of his own devising and the sacrifice of many souls”.

So it looks like there are many different ways to achieve the same result.

I agree that if we need to be Ascended it shouldn’t just be ignored, but I don’t think it needs to involve something as elaborate and complicated as the Prophecies Ascension rituals.

I’m not saying it as a fact, but we did follow the trials of ascension in the Living Story to get a mistflame to fight to the shadow of the dragon. It was a rushed version of the same trials, so it all depends on whether anet lets that count as true ascension or not

We’ve already got an answer to that. Ogden points out a couple different times, before we even start, that the process we underwent wouldn’t Ascend us.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

We’ve already got an answer to that. Ogden points out a couple different times, before we even start, that the process we underwent wouldn’t Ascend us.

Ah okay, must’ve missed that, but I didnt know for either way.
But its not like we needed ascension to see Mursaat when they voluntarily enter our world. Sail d’Alessio wasnt ascended at the time, either.
But I’m more curious about what means why Lazarus would voluntarily show himself. If he thinks of us as inconsequential, why would he bother showing himself. Now that he’s revealed his existence we can prove to be a minor or major annoyance to his works. unless he wants us to chase him and unentionally put things to motion in his favor.

uhmm ascension did not unlock second professions in gw1.. u literally move from the “tutorial” pre searing area with a second prof…

In GW1, Ascension allowed changing your secondary profession.

This was mechanical though. In lore, it only allowed one the “Gift of True Sight” – seeing mursaat and spirits who hid themselves from mortals.

There’s also indication that mursaat may not be able to be invisible while attacking – we’ve never seen such at least.

Only if we get a DBZ Scanner out of it…

Just kidding, I prefer the “Gift of True Sight” the old way… or via a magical sword with a lions emblem

But its not really a problem, ascension was mostly so they couldnt hide from us. But they could choose to show themselves. D’alessio wasnt ascended for example, the mursaat left the veil of the mists to show themselves. We chose to become ascended so we could fight them fairly anywhere and everywhere. And after that we still needed infusions to survive their aura, which they developed to survive to the agony of the mists, creating an aura of agony around themselves.

I have a bigger problem with WHY lazarus chose to show himself in the first chapter. If he thinks of us as inconsequential, and wants to move through some kind of plot undisturbed, we can now prove to be quite an annoyance. UNLESS of course he wants us to hunt him, so we can set things in motion in his favor.

One, Lazarus doesn’t consider us, the PC, as inconsequential. If anything, he doesn’t consider us anything at all.

Way I see it, he needed to take control of his army of followers. Cadeucus was about to wrestle that control from him, to divert their resources to vie for the Krytan throne. See, the White Mantle had always been a theocracy; a religious-political coalition, governing Kryta. So, most of its components are both zealots, and politicians/government officials,. There are also the ones that are only religious fanatics, and on the other side of the spectrum, the ones with political ambitions. Cadeucus falls into that last category: he just wants the White Mantle political party to secure the throne for himself. He cares not about the resurrection of their god.

Since Cadeucus is their leader, it doesn’t matter if most of the WM is trying to revive Lazarus. The moment the Minister decides to invade, the WM will have to mobilize. This is made evident through Justiciar Bauer’s journal, where he has to work his superiors ambition into research on the Bloodstone; Bauer hopes for the magical research to allow him and his faction to bring Lazarus back, so he convinces Cadeucus to funnel resources into that, by pointing out the potential military applications of the Bloodstone weapons.

So, finally, why did he show himself?

Because Cadeucus was about to rally the WM into attacking Kryta (He was, after all, being shown the military capabilities of the Jade Constructs). Lazarus knew the majority of the WM would drop that and follow their god, if the “Unseen One” now showed himself. It would effectively make about 90% of their militants follow him, instead of their leader. And given that he believes the WM needs to be focused on something… other than the Kryta politics, he needed to assert that control.

Have in mind that Lazarus showing himself like that is akin to the Second Coming to these people.

Rhaegar.1203:

One, Lazarus doesn’t consider us, the PC, as inconsequential. If anything, he doesn’t consider us anything at all.

Way I see it, he needed to take control of his army of followers. Cadeucus was about to wrestle that control from him, to divert their resources to vie for the Krytan throne. See, the White Mantle had always been a theocracy; a religious-political coalition, governing Kryta. So, most of its components are both zealots, and politicians/government officials,. There are also the ones that are only religious fanatics, and on the other side of the spectrum, the ones with political ambitions. Cadeucus falls into that last category: he just wants the White Mantle political party to secure the throne for himself. He cares not about the resurrection of their god.

Since Cadeucus is their leader, it doesn’t matter if most of the WM is trying to revive Lazarus. The moment the Minister decides to invade, the WM will have to mobilize. This is made evident through Justiciar Bauer’s journal, where he has to work his superiors ambition into research on the Bloodstone; Bauer hopes for the magical research to allow him and his faction to bring Lazarus back, so he convinces Cadeucus to funnel resources into that, by pointing out the potential military applications of the Bloodstone weapons.

So, finally, why did he show himself?

Because Cadeucus was about to rally the WM into attacking Kryta (He was, after all, being shown the military capabilities of the Jade Constructs). Lazarus knew the majority of the WM would drop that and follow their god, if the “Unseen One” now showed himself. It would effectively make about 90% of their militants follow him, instead of their leader. And given that he believes the WM needs to be focused on something… other than the Kryta politics, he needed to assert that control.

Have in mind that Lazarus showing himself like that is akin to the Second Coming to these people.

Those.. Are actually some good points, kudos.
But still, having absorbed a bloodstones worth of power, considering they’re practically godmode control panels, does he actually need the WM anymore? Or does he just want them as an extra pair of hands to labor.

He doesn’t consider us anything at all. > doesnt that define inconsequentiality?

Amaimon.7823:

But still, having absorbed a bloodstones worth of power, considering they’re practically godmode control panels, does he actually need the WM anymore? Or does he just want them as an extra pair of hands to labor.

Well, we don’t actually know what he thinks the WM has to concentrate on. Maybe he has far more noble goals than we give him credit for, but given his history, I doubt it. OK, so now he’s sort of a god, which proven by other thread, is sort of really undefined in the Tyrian context. Maybe he’s not all-powerful? While the original Mursaat were certainly not gods, they were considered very powerful spellcasters, and yet, they needed the WM to sacrifice the Chosen and power the Mursaat’s Soul Batteries (Door of Komalie business and all that).

Amaimon.7823:

He doesn’t consider us anything at all. > doesnt that define inconsequentiality?

Maybe I worded it… wrong. I was trying to say that he knows nothing about the Pact Commander. Lore-wise, the raid always speaks of “mercenaries” and “adventurers”, and supposedly, Xera was just buying time for Lazarus to be moved before those adventurers could stop him from being reborn. So, they were not the PC. Lazarus never addressed Dragon’s Watch, just his followers. Maybeit was because he encountered something he hadn’t seen before, and needed time to consider, see how we fit in his design.

Well, consider that the gods still have retainers, and the Elder Dragons have minions. Being super-powerful yourself doesn’t seem to be a barrier to wanting to have followers.

It’s worth noting that one of the themes in the instance in which Lazarus appeared was on the question of whether people can change. It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen a story where a villain returned to life, but the experience gave them a change of heart and they became a more morally grey character. Lazarus may genuinely have had a change of heart and have developed goals other than pure revenge. Letting a group that was clearly an enemy of the White Mantle live could have been an olive branch.

Alternatively, though, he could simply have some Machiavellian reason why it’s more useful for Dragon’s Watch to live. It’s possible that he’s been following the PC, Unseen, since his or her arrival in Bloodstone Fen and thus knows exactly who he or she is, and has decided that while the PC may be a thorn in his plans, the PC’s potential usefulness as a foil against the dragons outweighs the risks.

Regarding the raid, that is a valid point. If the development team wanted to justify fights in raids being more difficult than story-instance equivalents, they could say that it’s not actually canon that the Pact Commander was present, and the fights were that hard because it was just an elite Pact strike team rather than the Pact Commander being present.

Rhaegar.1203:

Maybe I worded it… wrong. I was trying to say that he knows nothing about the Pact Commander. Lore-wise, the raid always speaks of “mercenaries” and “adventurers”, and supposedly, Xera was just buying time for Lazarus to be moved before those adventurers could stop him from being reborn. So, they were not the PC. Lazarus never addressed Dragon’s Watch, just his followers. Maybeit was because he encountered something he hadn’t seen before, and needed time to consider, see how we fit in his design.

I highly doubt that Lazarus doesn’t know of the Pact Commander. It’s more likely that he didn’t recognize the Pact Commander for who they were.

Keep in mind that Bauer explicitly states that the White Mantle were not ready to fight the Pact at their full force, and all three journals mention both Zhaitan’s and Mordrmeoth’s deaths. The White Mantle are fully aware of the Pact, the Commander, and their capabilities. And they would not fail to mention this to their god, especially if Lazarus is not too idiotic or egocentric as to not ask “what has happened in this world while I was recovering?”

If he asked that – in any form of wording – among the first things off of the White Mantle’s lips will be “The Elder Dragons woke up… and one was/two were killed by the Pact and their Commander, <insert character name>.”

Of course, having heard about the Pact Commander does not mean that Lazarus would know what the PC looks like, or that they are at Bloodstone Fen investigating the explosion. So to all Lazarus knew at the time, the group of non-White Mantle were most likely merely the Shining Blade and their lackies/allies. Which he no doubt would consider inconsequential.

But the moment he knows who the PC is and what they did, they will not be inconsequential. When his entire race had to flee from the might of six Elder Dragons, and a single individual spearheaded two campaigns that killed two Elder Dragons – a whole third of the force that forced Lazarus’ people to flee the world – that singular person will be dubbed number one threat.

Unless Lazarus is a total moron.

Granted, I made a lot of assumptions writing that, and what you say makes total sense. I guess it derives from a problem I’ve seen in the story; we, and the Pact have, not put to rest or sleep, but killed TWO Elder Dragons. That’s something that has never been done in recorded history. So the PC should be very famous.

The problem I allude to is that the treatment we get does not reflect that. However, I understand it, since mechanically, each player IS the Pact Commander.

If Lazarus will want something from the player character is probably going to be assistance in fighting an Elder Dragon, at first.

I can only think of 2 things he may want (in the end):
- Somehow ressurrect others of his race
- Become a “god”

Kryta is useless in this regard, so he doesn’t care about it.

Anyway, back on topic, any magitech in an ascension process would be a great disappointment.

I’m curious: where is the line between magic and magitech?

Could the Vision Crystal used in the Prophecies Ascension ritual be considered magitech because it was created by the Kournans? Or does it only apply to things asura create? Is it magitech if players are likely to relate it to modern day technology and regular magic if we relate it to ancient technology and/or folklore?

While Arthur C Clarke defined that “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”, I would also be extremely disappointed if through some asuran contraption, they could just shrug off the magical aspects of Ascension.

I would argue that we know little of the Vision Crystal. We don’t know if its magic was inherent, or imbued. If it was the latter… we could stretch the definition and label it magitech.

Edit: Correcting a stupid mistake where I wrote “contraception” instead of “contraption”, geez…

I think the request behind the request is to actually make Ascension part of the story, rather than going “we don’t have the resources to put in the appropriate story steps to do this, so here’s a MacGuffin that fixes the problem for you…”

Which, arguably, they just did with Infusion, but in this case they did it in a quite believable way. Doing so with Ascension itself, though, would likely come off as cheap, and if it’s asura magitech, it would further reinforce the trend of “anything that humans can do through their connection with the gods, the asura can steal the limelight from” trend that was laid out in the personal story.

On a couple of other concepts that came up:

Regarding the distinction between magitech and magic items: I do tend to think on it in terms of ‘does it look like technology/can you readily identify the magical function by looking at it/does it replicate some modern invention?’ Asura stuff tends to be magical guns/cannons, portals in the shape of big rings, and so on. Compare that to some of the human stuff, such as the teleporter to Nolani Academy (just a platform), the lightning obelisks in Ascalon, and Stormcaller: these fit more in the category of magic items than magitech.

draxynnic.3719:

I think the request behind the request is to actually make Ascension part of the story, rather than going “we don’t have the resources to put in the appropriate story steps to do this, so here’s a MacGuffin that fixes the problem for you…”

I think this is the main concern of the thread. I would be extremely disappointed if ascension was introduced as Taimi finding a device and then suddenly you are ascended. However I would be fine with it, even if it was a Taimi device, if we actually had to go on a quest to achieve it.

I think Konig hit the nail on the head… I think he knows OF the PC but Lazarus doesn’t know who the PC is (doesn’t know what the PC looks like or where he is).

Also I think it would be VERY cool (unlikely but VERY cool) if we end up having to go to the Isles of Janthir in order to become ascended… here is why:
The Eye of Janthir was claimed by Saul D’Alessio for the White Mantle long ago. It was from Janthir because the people there were said to have “the gift of True Sight, the ability to see someone for who they really are”. Sounds to me a lot like Ascension. Would be interesting if we need to travel there to unlock a mastery or something after a quest line so that we become able to do the same and see the Mursaat… it would also open up a world completely unexplored in any of the other GW lore. Only problem is the Isles are currently over run by White Mantle and Mursaat… sounds a lot like how Bloodstone Fen is now though….

Not necessarily. All we know about Janthir is that it’s where the Eye came from and the people there had the Gift of True Sight – and even that is coming from the White Mantle (although Saul is probably more trustworthy than those who followed him).

It could be that Saul acquired the Eye from its inhabitants who may not have been allied with the mursaat at all. It could be the last remnant of the Seers, or another Forgotten hideout, or a group of humans that successfully Ascended in ages past. It could be that Janthir waas inhabited by mursaat, but it was the first place to be hit when the titans were released in Prophecies, and now it’s infested with titans that are trapped on the island because they can’t cross the water. Or there could be something else going on there. It’s pretty much a blank slate apart from the reference about True Sight and it being the source of the Eye.

Well we KNOW Saul is trustworthy as you could play as him in GW1 and get betrayed by the Mursaat who killed those loyal to him and kidnapped him (The Mursaat who were there specifically were Lazarus the Dire, Marica the Smug, and Optimus Caliph) and we never saw Saul again. Saul kind of invaded there and took their “Eye” for the White Mantle for the Test of Chosen (which later would result in blood sacrifices for the Mursaat) and at the time Saul was still loyal to the Mursaat… so I just kind of assume that the Mursaat do what they do when they conquer some place… infect it with Jade Armors and weird purple buildings

No one says Saul invaded. The sole source we have on Janthir (who is unreliable to boot- he says Janthir is to the south, which is simply false) says only that Saul traveled there and returned with the Eye. He also claims that the people of Janthir are ‘gifted’ with true sight- not much to go off of, but it does mean the only descriptor he uses is a positive one. Not what you’d expect if the Mantle rank-and-file had warred with the place.

And that’s all assuming the story is true- what drax was getting at above is that, even if Saul was trustworthy, that doesn’t mean he actually said or did everything that the Mantle claim. For all we know the Eye might not have come from Janthir at all.

Quince.6037:

I think Konig hit the nail on the head… I think he knows OF the PC but Lazarus doesn’t know who the PC is (doesn’t know what the PC looks like or where he is).

Also I think it would be VERY cool (unlikely but VERY cool) if we end up having to go to the Isles of Janthir in order to become ascended… here is why:
The Eye of Janthir was claimed by Saul D’Alessio for the White Mantle long ago. It was from Janthir because the people there were said to have “the gift of True Sight, the ability to see someone for who they really are”. Sounds to me a lot like Ascension. Would be interesting if we need to travel there to unlock a mastery or something after a quest line so that we become able to do the same and see the Mursaat… it would also open up a world completely unexplored in any of the other GW lore. Only problem is the Isles are currently over run by White Mantle and Mursaat… sounds a lot like how Bloodstone Fen is now though….

the Eye of Janthir has zero relation to the methods of ascension. All it did was allow the white mantle to see which people have ‘strong souls’ to fuel the bloodstone engine with. The player doesn’t know this and thinks they’re helping the white mantle find saintly people.

Ascension as described in Prophecies is the method where a person, under observation of the gods, performs three-ish tasks, and must then face their own weaknesses. If they can overcome three trials and face their own weakness, then they receive ascension.
In Cantha you receive ascension by gazing to the stars, I don’t really know ther backgrounds, but battling the celestial avatars must be something mist-entwining as well.
In Elona you don’t actually Ascend. They just say after a while ‘from this point on you have the benefits of ascension so you can have the same game mechanics’

Amaimon.7823:

the Eye of Janthir has zero relation to the methods of ascension. All it did was allow the white mantle to see which people have ‘strong souls’ to fuel the bloodstone engine with. The player doesn’t know this and thinks they’re helping the white mantle find saintly people.

Yes and no. That ‘strong soul’ (never called that- it was only said that they had an innate talent for magic) was called being Chosen, and supposedly, only Chosen could ascend. While it had no role in the trials of ascension themselves, it was a way of picking out those who had a chance at completing said trials.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Amaimon.7823:

the Eye of Janthir has zero relation to the methods of ascension. All it did was allow the white mantle to see which people have ‘strong souls’ to fuel the bloodstone engine with. The player doesn’t know this and thinks they’re helping the white mantle find saintly people.

Yes and no. That ‘strong soul’ (never called that- it was only said that they had an innate talent for magic) was called being Chosen, and supposedly, only Chosen could ascend. While it had no role in the trials of ascension themselves, it was a way of picking out those who had a chance at completing said trials.

That.. Is true. I should’ve worded it better. But all the eye does is point those people out. I sincerely doubt a farmer wouldve ever completed any of the tasks regardless of their heroism. I guess the eye does point out if you should even bother seeking ascension.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Yes and no. That ‘strong soul’ (never called that- it was only said that they had an innate talent for magic) was called being Chosen, and supposedly, only Chosen could ascend. While it had no role in the trials of ascension themselves, it was a way of picking out those who had a chance at completing said trials.

However, the term “Chosen” is only ever used in relation to the Flameseeker Prophecies, and as Weh no Su is also referred to as being an alternative form of Ascension (outright called “what Canthans call Ascension” by an Ascalonian scholar, and the title of the emperors turning to “Ascendant Emperor” after the tradition for every emperor to become Weh no Su began) and none who fulfills Weh no Su are ever called “Chosen” – let alone every Canthan Emperor since Chang Hai.

Given this, it stands to reason that the Chosen has 0 direct relation to Ascension in of itself, and just refers to the individuals the Flameseeker Prophecies refers to as the ones who will open the Door of Komalie and wipe out the mursaat (which just so happens to also include the individuals Ascending). And in turn, it stands to question what the true purpose of the Eye of Janthir was all about, since the Chosen would, inevitably, only refer to the ones who fulfill the prophecy.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Yes and no. That ‘strong soul’ (never called that- it was only said that they had an innate talent for magic) was called being Chosen, and supposedly, only Chosen could ascend. While it had no role in the trials of ascension themselves, it was a way of picking out those who had a chance at completing said trials.

However, the term “Chosen” is only ever used in relation to the Flameseeker Prophecies, and as Weh no Su is also referred to as being an alternative form of Ascension (outright called “what Canthans call Ascension” by an Ascalonian scholar, and the title of the emperors turning to “Ascendant Emperor” after the tradition for every emperor to become Weh no Su began) and none who fulfills Weh no Su are ever called “Chosen” – let alone every Canthan Emperor since Chang Hai.

Given this, it stands to reason that the Chosen has 0 direct relation to Ascension in of itself, and just refers to the individuals the Flameseeker Prophecies refers to as the ones who will open the Door of Komalie and wipe out the mursaat (which just so happens to also include the individuals Ascending). And in turn, it stands to question what the true purpose of the Eye of Janthir was all about, since the Chosen would, inevitably, only refer to the ones who fulfill the prophecy.

I think the issue here is that ‘Chosen’ can be used, and is used in Prophecies, two separate ways- as the one, or ones, foreseen who will fulfill the Prophecies, and as the ones who have the potential to Ascend and unlock the gift of True Sight, which just borrows the same term used for the first because that’s the context of Ascenion in Tyria.

Which gets back to the weird dissimilarities between Tyrian Ascension and Canthan Weh no Su. It seems that only a single, or single batch of, Chosen ever ascended by way of the trials in the desert- in fact, the way the mesa shatters suggests that it might have been set up so it could only happen once- where as Weh no Su has, at minimum, been attained by a long line of Canthan emperors. Ascension is linked directly to the gods, and overseen by their practically immortal servants; Weh no Su is linked only to the celestials, and overseen by a mortal man (albeit an incredibly powerful one).

Instead of saying everything we know about the Eye, and half of what we know about the Chosen, is false, I’d prefer to think that the Canthan emperors and all the rest closer to the stars are Chosen in the second sense, and that the term isn’t used for the simple and sufficient reason that the Flameseeker Prophecies don’t touch on Cantha, and that they had a cultural context for Ascension before they existed, while the Tyrians didn’t.

This seems like a weird idea. But would all Revenants already be considered ascended through Shiro?

Daniel Handler.4816:

This seems like a weird idea. But would all Revenants already be considered ascended through Shiro?

I wouldn’t see how. Shiro was never Weh Su Noh that I know of, and definitely had no connection to ascension. Plus being able to tap into the power of an echo of someone’s last doesn’t necessarily give you access to all of their capabilities. I mean the Revenants using Glint’s or Mallyx’s powers are nowhere near as strong as the beings that they channel.

Narcemus.1348:

Daniel Handler.4816:

This seems like a weird idea. But would all Revenants already be considered ascended through Shiro?

I wouldn’t see how. Shiro was never Weh Su Noh that I know of, and definitely had no connection to ascension. Plus being able to tap into the power of an echo of someone’s last doesn’t necessarily give you access to all of their capabilities. I mean the Revenants using Glint’s or Mallyx’s powers are nowhere near as strong as the beings that they channel.

If all Emperors ascended to be Chosen, then wouldn’t Shiro gain that ability upon absorbing energy from the slain Emperor?

I’ve always figured that Chosen actually refers to descendants of King Doric, who by virtue of his legacy are capable of having their souls sealed into the bloodstone. It also seems that the Exalted may have ascended, as they referred to having passed the Forgotten’s tests in order to attain their current forms (I like to think they are our characters from GW1, but that’s just me).

As for how ascension pertains to our characters, you could possibly make the argument that our characters already ARE ascended. We’ve seen the Eternal Alchemy, the underpinnings of the Tyrian universe. This could conceivably be equivalent to ascension for all intents and purposes.

As for Lazarus, I think he needs us, though I’m not sure what for yet. Revealing himself must play to his goals somehow. I’m hoping that we’ll wind up finding other Mursaat still alive, potentially ones who are opposed to Lazarus. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that some Mursaat had no interest in humans or manipulating them, and that the Unseen were merely one faction of the race. I really hope we’ll have some Mursaat allies this go-round.

Blazing Liger.1236:

I’ve always figured that Chosen actually refers to descendants of King Doric, who by virtue of his legacy are capable of having their souls sealed into the bloodstone. It also seems that the Exalted may have ascended, as they referred to having passed the Forgotten’s tests in order to attain their current forms (I like to think they are our characters from GW1, but that’s just me).

As for how ascension pertains to our characters, you could possibly make the argument that our characters already ARE ascended. We’ve seen the Eternal Alchemy, the underpinnings of the Tyrian universe. This could conceivably be equivalent to ascension for all intents and purposes.

As for Lazarus, I think he needs us, though I’m not sure what for yet. Revealing himself must play to his goals somehow. I’m hoping that we’ll wind up finding other Mursaat still alive, potentially ones who are opposed to Lazarus. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that some Mursaat had no interest in humans or manipulating them, and that the Unseen were merely one faction of the race. I really hope we’ll have some Mursaat allies this go-round.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Weh_no_Su
If this is accurate then the Emperor should have already achieved, or been training in, Weh No Su when Shiro absorbed his powers.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Narcemus.1348:

Daniel Handler.4816:

This seems like a weird idea. But would all Revenants already be considered ascended through Shiro?

I wouldn’t see how. Shiro was never Weh Su Noh that I know of, and definitely had no connection to ascension. Plus being able to tap into the power of an echo of someone’s last doesn’t necessarily give you access to all of their capabilities. I mean the Revenants using Glint’s or Mallyx’s powers are nowhere near as strong as the beings that they channel.

If all Emperors ascended to be Chosen, then wouldn’t Shiro gain that ability upon absorbing energy from the slain Emperor?

What Shiro absorbed from the emperor was a magical blessing from Dwayna to be bestowed upon Cantha, you know, better harvest, stuff like that. This was corrupted within him and became the Jade Wind upon his death. It had nothing to do with ascension or Weh Su Noh.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Instead of saying everything we know about the Eye, and half of what we know about the Chosen, is false, I’d prefer to think that the Canthan emperors and all the rest closer to the stars are Chosen in the second sense, and that the term isn’t used for the simple and sufficient reason that the Flameseeker Prophecies don’t touch on Cantha, and that they had a cultural context for Ascension before they existed, while the Tyrians didn’t.

By making such a claim, you’re basically degrading the importance of the Chosen – they’re presented as this “uncommon” thing among people, after all. If hundreds or thousands of people in Cantha are Chosen… That’s not all that uncommon.

Same with the theory that “all of King Doric’s descendants are Chosen” – there’d be hundreds of thousands of such people after a thousand years, unless there was a special culling. But given that we had a commoner that could trace his lineage to Doric (Adelbern), a “culling” is unlikely. Such a theory would also counteract the notion that “to Ascend one must be Chosen” because the Canthan Emperors are highly unlikely to be descendants of King Doric (the only way to make that theory work is if it’s actually the descendant of one of King Doric’s ancestors from older lands, before humanity split into the three continents – maybe Chong, the oldest Celestial we know of, who was from when humanity was still new on the world?).

Unless there’s information about Chang Hai’s mother that I’ve missed, it’s possible that Chang Hai’s mother was a daughter or even granddaughter of King Doric. Doric was an adult at the time of the Scriptures of Dwayna (he appears to have had an extended lifespan), and it’s common for royal families to marry into one another – and at the time, the human kingdoms that we know of were consolidated into four great empires (the Tyrian empire based from Orr, the Elonian Primeval Kings based in Istan, the Empire of Cantha, and the Margonites), so it’s entirely possible that there was intermarriage between Doric’s line and the Canthan line… and it may not be coincidence that the first Ascendant Emperor is around the right age to be a grandson or great-grandson of Doric.

The idea that the Chosen were descendants of King Doric is one that’s been floating around for so long that I can’t remember if there was some hint to it that’s now been lost or whether it was another case of people coming up with something that sounded good but was largely unfounded. It’s plausible, though. The impression I’ve always had is that the Chosen were a minority, but still a significant one – the Prophecies heroes happened to be the ones to fulfill the prophecy, but the White Mantle certainly didn’t seem to have any shortages. Apart from the Emperors, becoming Weh No Su seems to be uncommon enough in Cantha that it could be something that only a minority had the innate ability to achieve… and that’s assuming that Weh No Su is actually the same (remember, history doesn’t record anyone having achieved Ascension at Augury Rock at the time that An Empire Divided was written, so the author may have been talking out of his kitten when he said they were the same.)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Instead of saying everything we know about the Eye, and half of what we know about the Chosen, is false, I’d prefer to think that the Canthan emperors and all the rest closer to the stars are Chosen in the second sense, and that the term isn’t used for the simple and sufficient reason that the Flameseeker Prophecies don’t touch on Cantha, and that they had a cultural context for Ascension before they existed, while the Tyrians didn’t.

By making such a claim, you’re basically degrading the importance of the Chosen – they’re presented as this “uncommon” thing among people, after all. If hundreds or thousands of people in Cantha are Chosen… That’s not all that uncommon.

Considering that there were apparently thousands in Kryta alone? The least densely populated of the Tyrian kingdoms, unable to even hold a candle to the kind of population Cantha boasted? It doesn’t seem like such a stretch to me.

Honestly, that number from Jacob Salinger is another reason why I think the Eye detecting the “Chosen” to be a fabrication. It may not be a fabrication that it detected people with potential for powerful magic – it may not be a fabrication that it saw a person’s true being (thus detecting people who have beliefs that would turn them into enemies of the White Mantle should the truth of them be found out (would explain the numbers of the Shining Blade)).

But for there to be thousands of people found within five years’ time to be capable of Ascension, when the Chosen are considered to be a minority seems a bit of a stretch in of itself.

Ah, but what was the population of Kryta? Lion’s Arch wasn’t the only city in Kryta at the time – the Temple of the Unseen in Riverside Province was surrounded by a fairly large city by GW1 standards (if you don’t count Kaineng) and there are quite a few large towns in what was then southern Kryta which are no longer within the borders of modern Kryta. A population in the hundreds of thousands, or at least the tens of thousands, for Kryta does not seem unreasonable: a mere “thousands” would then remain on the order of 10% or less of the total population, which would definitely still classify as a minority.