Guild Wars 2

It seems the “B” word for illegitmate children gets edited, anyway…

I came across this interesting conversation at the end of “The Sad Tale of the ‘Ravenous’” human storyline…

Scholar Josir: We can’t allow anything to happen to Queen Jennah. She’s the last of the royal line!

Agent Ihen: Perhaps not the last…but you’re right. Without Queen Jennah, we’d lose our treaty with the Charr

Not all that surprising, given how royal families act, and the story of Queen Salma. Queen Jennah has no heirs though, and she seems to keep Logan at arm’s length most of the time.

So, possibly future storyline? Interesting tidbit of information either way.

I think he was talking about King Doric’s bloodline rather than just the royal line of Kryta. She is one of the last known decendants for King Doric. Ive heard the head guy in Ebonhawke is too but Ive never checked that.

There could however be other unknown decendants to King Doric out there. The old royal Krytan family disappeared. We dont know for certain if Barradin had any other relatives that might have had children too.

The big question for me is why the line of Doric is actually that important? We know that it wasnt his blood that made the Bloodstones. We also dont know if there was infact any particular reason the gods favored him as King of Humans. He seems to have been favored by Dwayna. However his bloodline doesnt seem to have any known special quality that Im aware off apart from producing some very powerful figures.

If you are talking about King Doric’s bloodline, there are surely more people out there with it.

For example Cynn from GW1 was a nobility. Given how the royalty and nobility often intermarry, Cynn might very well have been a descendant of King Doric. There are probably many others.

And it has never been confirmed that Prince Rurik was Ascalon’s only prince.

And pretty much every chosen that was found by the White Mantle were descendants of King Doric. Their blood gave the bloodstone powers. There were a lot. Probably similar numbers in Ascalon.

Well, according to legend, if a descendant of Doric gets Magdaer or Sohothin, he can release the curse on Ascalon and make the ghosts go away for good.

Excelliate.7914:

Well, according to legend, if a descendant of Doric gets Magdaer or Sohothin, he can release the curse on Ascalon and make the ghosts go away for good.

I was actually thinking of that. How would that work?? We know Sohothin is in the hands of Rytlock. And Rytlock would want to get rid of those ghosts. Now the treaty is there, he could lend it to Queen Jennah (don’t think Samuellson would do it) and ask her kindly to Ascalon to get rid of the ghosts there???

So why don’t they do that?? or even made that part of the treaty??

Keep in mind that Salma was an illegitimate child herself. It’s not too uncommon for royalty to have illegitimate children. The question is whether one can prove the heritage or not. I think that’s what Ihen’s was talking about – not that there is another heir to the Krytan throne, but that there could be more, given the royal line’s… promiscuity (and not just Krytan at that – those Canthan emperors really knew how to get it on).

Lutinz.6915:

The big question for me is why the line of Doric is actually that important? We know that it wasnt his blood that made the Bloodstones. We also dont know if there was infact any particular reason the gods favored him as King of Humans. He seems to have been favored by Dwayna. However his bloodline doesnt seem to have any known special quality that Im aware off apart from producing some very powerful figures.

Erm, you seem to be mistaken. It was never said that King Doric’s blood made the original Bloodstone, but rather that his blood sealed the separated ones.

So his blood is still important as that fact hasn’t yet been proven wrong. Though given the History of Tyria’s accuracy of “truth” as of late, that being wrong wouldn’t be too surprising. We do know that the Six Gods tampered with the original Bloodstone – both before and after splitting – and we’re told two different cases of tampering: harnessing Zhaitan’s power to strengthen the Bloodstone, and using Doric’s blood to help seal magic.

It’s possible that when the Seers made the Bloodstone, they also had to use a sacrifice to seal magic – and the Six Gods just redid the act in order to re-seal it since Abaddon went and unleashed magic.

Besides this, King Doric was the first king of the united Tyrian continent (Ascalon, Orr, and yes even Kryta was under his domain). So I think other than the Bloodstone fact, his bloodline would be important for its symbolic nature more than anything else.

And to Lutinz, yes, Samuelson does claim to be a descendent of Ascalonian kings.

CHIPS.6018:

And it has never been confirmed that Prince Rurik was Ascalon’s only prince.

There’s conflicting sources about whether Rurik was the only son of Adelbern, or just the eldest. Since he’s called the eldest child on a couple of occasions, but only son on others.

What’s not disputed is that he was Adelbern’s last heir to live. Adelbern’s bloodline died with himself and Rurik.

CHIPS.6018:

And pretty much every chosen that was found by the White Mantle were descendants of King Doric. Their blood gave the bloodstone powers. There were a lot. Probably similar numbers in Ascalon.

That’s completely wrong. The Chosen have nothing to do with Doric’s heritage. They’re just magically talented (according to the White Mantle) – any soul would act the same way as the sacrifices, and its possible that none of them were Chosen either, since the only purpose or context the term has is being the fulfillers of the Flameseeker Prophecies. And besides, the chosen being sacrificed didn’t give the bloodstone powers.

mercury ranique.2170:

Excelliate.7914:

Well, according to legend, if a descendant of Doric gets Magdaer or Sohothin, he can release the curse on Ascalon and make the ghosts go away for good.

I was actually thinking of that. How would that work?? We know Sohothin is in the hands of Rytlock. And Rytlock would want to get rid of those ghosts. Now the treaty is there, he could lend it to Queen Jennah (don’t think Samuellson would do it) and ask her kindly to Ascalon to get rid of the ghosts there???

So why don’t they do that?? or even made that part of the treaty??

Keep in mind that Magdaer was retrieved too, and is being reforged. I predict it’ll be given to Samuelson as part of the treaty negotiations by Logan (and extension, Jennah) since Magdaer’s being reforged for Logan.

The treaty negotiations are on going, so it could end up being part of the treaty. But don’t expect Rytlock to give up his sword – even temporarily – unless on Imperators’ orders.

Look here:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Chosen

“The truth, however, is that the Chosen are part of the Flameseeker Prophecies, destined to cause the downfall of the Mursaat. In the Maguuma Jungle the players learn that the White Mantle, servants of the Mursaat, are taking the Chosen into the jungle to be sacrificed on a bloodstone. The souls from such sacrifice are powering the soul batteries in the Door of Komalie, preventing the armies of Titans from invading the world of Tyria.”

So yes the Chosen’s blood and soul does fuel the bloodstone and soul batteries. They cannot be simply magically talented because:

1) White Mantles have their own mages. I am sure they are all magically talented. Why aren’t they sacrificed, if the Mursaats are so worried about it?

2) Powerful mages in Tyria are so common, to various extends, that it would be impossible to kill all of them without wiping out all the humans. If this is the only requirement there will be a lot more Chosens. Hack even mindless mobs can use magic, so they are mages too. Chosens being the descendants of King Doric, with his bloodline, makes more sense.

The soul batteries and bloodstones are two separate things. The bloodstones (and the inscriptions on them) acted more of conduits – something for the souls to pass through. Killing atop the bloodstone was needed for the soul to be sent into the soul battery, given the bloodstone was used as the conduit.

Regarding the chosen’s magical talents:
1) It’s what the White Mantle claims. “Every year, at the turn of each season, the Mantle take the Divine Eye of Janthir to all the villages in Kryta to test the locals for magical aptitude.” “The Eye can identify those individuals who have within themselves the potential to become powerful magic users.” http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mantle_Knight_Franklin

However, as we know, the White Mantle are privy to lying. But beyond this, all we know about what the Chosen are would be those who can fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies. We can’t even be certain that the Test of the Chosen actually pointed out people who were Chosen.
2) Powerful mages != mages; don’t confuse the two. A powerful mage would be someone like Shiro Tagachi, the player characters, Khilbron, Lord Odran etc. Those who do otherwise impossible feats. Just because you could use magic doesn’t mean that you’re a “powerful mage” – it just means you’re a mage.

The whole deal with the Chosen sacrificed atop the Bloodstones have actually very little to do with them being magically talented, but much more to do with them the Chosen of the Flameseeker Prophecies. The Flameseeker Prophecies speak of (Among many other things, not all unveiled) the Chosen causing the downfall of the Mursaat, the Unseen Gods of the White Mantle. Thus the Mursaat get the White Mantle to locate these potential Chosen and then sacrifice them, thus not only removing potential obstacles, but also powering the door keeping the Titans locked away.

As for the topic at hand, regarding the line of Doric; we currently have two people in Guild Wars 2 who are of the line of Doric: Queen Jennah and Commander Wade Samuelsson of Ebonhawke. However, it’s entirely possible there may be more who have descended from royalty, in one way or another. I recall a fun line while questing in Kryta in Prophecies, where an NPC says the following of the Krytan royal family after they had all either fled or died: “The Royals, however, were known for their…er…indiscretions, and it is likely that there are a few with royal blood in their veins who still live in Kryta.”

I always assumed that another heir to the royal line of Ascalon would eventually be revealed, i waited for that back in GW1. And i can’t imagine Jennah being the one to put the ghosts to rest (if we are ever going to see that happen ingame). Adelbern may have had other children, or some member of the Barradin family may have survived. My bet is that Adelbern had a daughter, it’s just a hunch, but i hope that we will eventually find out.

And concerning Sohothin, the Charr got the Claw back, they should give Sohothin back as a symbol of peace (after the fragile peace treaty has lasted for some time), whether that Charr who currently wields it likes that or not. The whole thing smells like Rytlock will eventually give it back on his own anyway, it would just fit too well into the overall mood of the game imo. But that is another topic.

Rurik was Adelbern’s last heir, so he didn’t have any children. But we know of someone from the Ascalonian royal line as has been pointed out already: Wade Samuelson – the duke of Ebonhawke and commander of the Ebon Vanguard. Whether his ancestor was Barradin or someone else is unknown though.

And why would Rytlock give Sohothin back? Its his, and Logan has/will have a reforged Magdaer thanks to Eir and Rytlock.

The possibility that Adelbern had other children besides Rurik can not be completely ruled out. Slim chance, but not impossible. He had 10 years of time between the “end” of the GW1 storyline and the Foefire for example.

Sohothin is a heirloom of humanity and does not belong to a Charr, Logan did not insist on taking it back due to his friendship with Rytlock. Him giving it back as a gesture of peace with humanity would fit with the overall mood of the game imo, even if it is only temporary to put the ghosts to rest. Until someone who has the birthright to give Sohothin away (like Samuelson) does so, it does not belong to Rytlock. And it seems to me that Rytlock is aware of that.

Actually, it can be. Because, again last heir was Rurik. Rurik was called the eldest son in the Prophecies manual, so Adelbern likely had younger sons, but if Rurik was the last heir, they all died off before Rurik (who died in 1072 AE).

Rurik’s death drove Adelbern further into insanity, so if he had other children still alive, I doubt that he’d be affected so much by Rurik’s death to the point where he believes Rurik may return when in modern GW2 times.

And I’m pretty sure the charr fall under “if you can take it, its yours” mentality – I mean, Rytlock gained his rank by killing his superiors, and you do the same in the Blood Legion storyline (though you don’t have to kill your superior, you can, but you always best him). From what I’ve seen in both Edge of Destiny and Guild Wars 2, Rytlock seems fully intent on keeping his sword.

It’s worth noting King Adelbern was king by popular decision, I think it was Duke Barradin who was the rightful heir and stepped aside for the good of the people. From there, his daughter was Lady Althea and we kind of know what happened to her.

Samuelsson is a descendant of the royal line of Ascalon, so the line survived, through the Barradin family or another, and Sohothin rightfully belongs to him. If Jennah would demand the sword back Rytlock would not be given a choice. He keeps it as long as he can cling to it and the chance he has to give it up can not be ruled out.

Throughout history the question of line of succession was always of utmost importance to kings, the way Adelbern clung to his kingdom makes me think that he would not have forgotten about it. Even if Rurik was the last heir that we currently know of does not mean there was no other. And even if Adelbern did not name an heir, obviously there was one – otherwise no Wade Samuelsson today. Salma also wasn’t officially named heir to Kryta by her father.

Even if the manual names Rurik the last heir to Ascalon does not rule out there was no survivor from Adelberns family. And i know how Adelbern reacts in the AC, it does not convince me that he had no other surviving children or family members. Do you know Adelberns words after completing “The last day dawns” in GW1? He is aware that Rurik is dead. As a ghost he doesn’t seem to be.

I think you’re over-exaggerating the state of the charr/human cease fire. There’s no peace or alliance yet. It’s all in negotiations. Rytlock doesn’t have to do anything if Jennah or Wade demand Sohothin – he could give it up, but he’s equally allowed to say “no.” It’s only Bangar Ruinbringer, the Blood Legion Imperator, who is NOT for the human-charr peace treaty (he’s only going along with it to keep on the good side of both Malice Swordshadow and Smodur the Unflinching – the imperators of Ash and Iron Legions respectively) that can outright order him to give it up – no one else.

" And even if Adelbern did not name an heir, obviously there was one – otherwise no Wade Samuelsson today. Salma also wasn’t officially named heir to Kryta by her father."

You’re mistaken. Wade doesn’t have to be descended from Adelbern to be descended from King Doric and the Ascalonian royal bloodline. Keep in mind that Adelbern grew up as a commoner before he was crowned by popular demand, even if he was also descended from King Doric. Adelbern isn’t Wade’s great great great grandfather.

Also, regarding Salma, that’s a case of illegitimacy, but it was never said that Jadon never had a child. However, Rurik is said to be Adelbern’s last living child. So there’s a massive difference in the situation.

“And i know how Adelbern reacts in the AC, it does not convince me that he had no other surviving children or family members. Do you know Adelberns words after completing “The last day dawns” in GW1? He is aware that Rurik is dead. As a ghost he doesn’t seem to be.”

I’m not talking about Ascalonian Catacombs. I’m talking about the novel Ghosts of Ascalon, where he is said to believe Rurik to be alive still. Incidentally, while looking for the line I referred to just now, I found something else that debunks you completely:

Savione scowled at Riona. “The Searing drove us from Rin, and the shame of that imbalanced His Majesty. He began to argue with Prince Rurik, his only child, who advocated making peace with Adelbern’s old enemies in Kryta and taking shelter within its borders. Then Rurik broke with the king and perished while leading a faction of Ascalonians into Kryta.” Page 333/334

I think Adelbern’s chief courtier would know how many were in his family.

And the line I was originally referring to from Ghosts of Ascalon:

“Death has done nothing to improve His Majesty’s condition.” Savione crossed his arms over his middle, resting just under the blade within his chest. “In death, his madness grows. He speaks as if Ascalon City were not in ruins, as if the charr have been pushed back, and as if his son still lived.” page 335

“There’s conflicting sources about whether Rurik was the only son of Adelbern, or just the eldest. Since he’s called the eldest child on a couple of occasions, but only son on others.”

You said yourself that there are conflicting sources about Rurik being the only child or not. While GoA is considered “canon” i still do take the information given within with a grain of salt. To me it feels like it is a question that was left open for further development, which may have gotten cancelled. As i said earlier, i have a hunch about a person from GW1 being connected with it, i hope that time will tell if i am right about that or not.

It does not matter in which source Adelbern is shown to believe that his son is still alive, they are set after the Foefire. It does not rule out that other family members besides Rurik existed. And i did not connect Samuelsson with Adelbern, mind you. I assume he is a descendant of the royal line of Ascalon and therefore of Doric.

Jadon may have had other children, but it does not matter concerning Salma’s legitimacy. Salma wasn’t named heir to Kryta by her father, neither must Adelbern have named an heir for the question if one existed or not after Rurik’s death. Simply being related is enough, as we saw in case of Salma. Same is possible for the royal line of Ascalon, and Samuelsson seem to be the person who may lay claim to it.

Finally, the future storyline will prove me right or wrong about Sohothin, and in politics the determination of a single Charr to keep a stolen sword would not have much of a weight.

The “conflict” I mentioned is literally the Prophecies manual calling Prince Rurik the eldest son, while other places like The Movement of the World (or was it The Ecology of the Charr) called him the only heir – I hadn’t remembered that line from GoA. Honestly speaking, since the manuals were written before the beta, it’d be less reliable than Ghosts of Ascalon which was heavily edited by Jeff Grubb so that it’d be completely accurate (and they even went and altered the game to make it match the books’ descriptions).

Taking GoA and, in this case, a first-hand account with a “grain of salt” compared to a pre-beta lore write up is rather silly. ’Sides, an only son is still the eldest. It was never said Adelbern had other children.

“And i did not connect Samuelsson with Adelbern, mind you.”

Yes, you did – in saying this: “And even if Adelbern did not name an heir, obviously there was one – otherwise no Wade Samuelsson today.” If there was no heir, then Wade Samuelson couldn’t exist. That’s what you’re saying. Wade Samuelson exists, but Adelbern didn’t have an heir. This is why Wade isn’t the king of Ascalon, but the duke of Ebonhawke.

Again, the matter about Salma wasn’t that Jadon was said to have no other heirs or what-have-you. Even Salma wasn’t named an heir, but it was never once said Jadon didn’t have children.

In the end, Adelbern’s bloodline ended with him – he may have had a sibling who’s family continued on, or the royal line continued through other distant relatives. It doesn’t matter really much, since we know Wade is of royal descent and we know Adelbern had no children beyond Rurik.

Being named heir by the current ruler or becoming heir by descendancy are two different concepts, but you seem to not differentiate for the reason of critizising my post. There seems to have been an heir to the royal line of Ascalon, and Wade Samuelsson seems to be the descendant.

The question about Jadon having had legitimate children or not is irrelevant for the status of Salma as illegitimate child, yet you insist on bringing that point up again.

And if Adelbern had a sibling whose family lived on then his bloodline did not end (bloodline: all the members of a family group over generations). It remains to be seen from which line exactly Samuelsson comes, so the question of Adelberns bloodline is not solved yet. But i know you will not let it be but insist on “being right”.

Me not taking everything as being written in stone is my right to do so, you yourself bring up the point that some things were changed along the time. The GW lore is not monolithic but undergoing changes.

And last, calling me silly is not really helpful, keep it on an objective level please and do not become personal.

Frosch.7809:

Being named heir by the current ruler or becoming heir by descendancy are two different concepts, but you seem to not differentiate for the reason of critizising my post. There seems to have been an heir to the royal line of Ascalon, and Wade Samuelsson seems to be the descendant.

Well, considering how blood relation can be really funny, I don’t find it that problematic. Consider how many people today probably could trace their lines back to nobility in some part of the world.

We know King Adelbern was crowned by popular demand, and is a descendant of King Doric of Orr. We know the line of succession meant Duke Barradin should have been the next but he stepped aside to support Adelbern and offered his daughter up for marriage to Prince Rurik to unite the lines and silence dissenters. (Apparently, mind you.)

The question about Jadon having had legitimate children or not is irrelevant for the status of Salma as illegitimate child, yet you insist on bringing that point up again.

We know Queen Salma was also a descendant of the same line, though an illegitimate child. So we know lineage doesn’t require legitimacy, which should be obvious anyway.

And if Adelbern had a sibling whose family lived on then his bloodline did not end (bloodline: all the members of a family group over generations). It remains to be seen from which line exactly Samuelsson comes, so the question of Adelbern’s bloodline is not solved yet. But i know you will not let it be but insist on “being right”.

No, it’s solved. Adelbern’s bloodline ends with Rurik. When you talk about a bloodline and name someone, you start tracing down from them and not upwards. His bloodline only flows one way: down. The “family tree” on the other hand, is a different story.

The bloodline and family tree of King Doric is still unsolved . . . but it probably never will be because of how it can spread out into dozens of hundreds of branches watered down by “common blood”.

@Frosch: My point about the heir thing is that Salma is a different situation than Adelbern. I recognize the difference, but you’re pointing them out as if there’s a relation. The entire situation around Salma is irrelevant – and I’m trying to show that for why it’s irrelevant, which you agree upon that small part but not that Salma on a whole is irrelevant because it’s a different scenario that happened.

When I say his bloodline ended, I meant that any children he had had no children. He has not descendents. None. The question of Adelbern’s bloodline in terms of his descendants is solved – you’re just refusing to acknowledge it, which is why I called you silly (or rather, I called your thinking process silly because you’re making pre-Prophecies release lore to be stronger than Ghosts of Ascalon).

Yes, GW lore does change, but first hand experienced lore never do. And that’s what we have here – first hand telling that Rurik was the only child, which in fact is a change from old lore in that previously Rurik was only called the eldest son and whether he had siblings was left in the air. However, it is no longer left in the air like you so desire.

The only way Adelbern could have a child – and this is a HUGE what-if situation – would be if he had a secret child that no one, not even his chief courtier (which is basically akin to advisor/scribe or some such, basically Savione knew just about everything about Adelbern), knew about. However, if that was the case, we can outright know that Wade is not descended from Adelbern – or at least, he himself wouldn’t know about his ancestry to Adelbern. Because in such situations, the “secret child” doesn’t know his or her own heritage. And at this point, there’d be no means to prove such because all records would have been destroyed by the Searing, Foefire, or the charr.

So yes, it is possible Adelbern had some unknown child, but the chances are so slim at this point given all the “Rurik was his only child” bits and Savione’s own testament that it’s more likely that Grenth was his own father. And it’s outright impossible for that child to ever be decerned as a descendent of Adelbern outside a one-in-a-hundred-sextillion chance.

Tobias, there are many cases in history when people made claims based on tracing their bloodline back to some ancestor, although those ancestors were sometimes of mythological origin and were made up – Julius Caesar, Hannibal, Alexander III. Edward III. laid claim to the throne of France with that argument and started a war to last 100 years.

Konig, now it seems like we arrive at some common ground here. Originally i had planned to just let the discussion be done with from my side…

That is what i was originally talking about, i was waiting for something to happen back in GW1 concerning the royal line of Ascalon, and as i originally said i had a hunch about a certain person to be involved (Evennia, but who it was does not really matter). Nothing more. Adelbern strikes me as having thought about a successor, and he had 10 years of time not covered between the time of WoC and the Foefire.

You found a quote in GoA that i hadn’t considered, probably because i did not overly like that novel. So let me redefine, my theory is that there may be an heir to the royal line of Adelbern yet undiscovered, maybe known to the Order of Whispers, because of some small hints ingame and because it would fit with the overall mood of the game. To me it seemed like you said that it was impossible.

But after playing GW2 myself it feels like there is a preference towards the Charr and the situation about Ascalon was left open and therefore most likely closed.

Wade Samuelsson does not really strike me as being a descendant of the line of Adelbern, more like a “compromise” insofar as he is from the royal line but not Adelberns (“My forefathers were the kings of Ascalon”).

I will go on waiting for some new facts to be revealed about this, which may happen or not.

Frosch.7809:

Tobias, there are many cases in history when people made claims based on tracing their bloodline back to some ancestor, although those ancestors were sometimes of mythological origin and were made up – Julius Caesar, Hannibal, Alexander III. Edward III. laid claim to the throne of France with that argument and started a war to last 100 years.

Yup, but two points are worth noting here.

1 – The claims were made, and at least some people believed/backed them or else it wouldn’t have started wars. In essence, the purpose of the claim was met.

2 – More to the point I originally made? I’ve looked at my ancestry. I quite possibly have a branch connected to some minor nobility about 500 years back, but I don’t have the money (or the interest) to go verifying this. Considering I’m American and the nobility in question seems to originate somewhere in the Balkans? I’m not going to try to dive any deeper.

You found a quote in GoA that i hadn’t considered, probably because i did not overly like that novel. So let me redefine, my theory is that there may be an heir to the royal line of Ascalon yet undiscovered, maybe known to the Order of Whispers, because of some small hints ingame and because it would fit with the overall mood of the game. To me it seemed like you said that it was impossible.

I think “improbable” not “impossible” is the word people want here

Also, remember that the Order collects information much like the Priory . . . but unlike the Priory, it doesn’t seem to care to make use of it publicly.

Frosch.7809:

That is what i was originally talking about, i was waiting for something to happen back in GW1 concerning the royal line of Ascalon, and as i originally said i had a hunch about a certain person to be involved (Evennia, but who it was does not really matter). Nothing more. Adelbern strikes me as having thought about a successor, and he had 10 years of time not covered between the time of WoC and the Foefire.

To quote Savione: “You impute a great deal of rationalism to a man who had clearly gone mad.”

Adelbern was beginning to show signs of insanity – perhaps through stress – since the Searing – and this is furthered by Savione in GoA (“The Searing drove us from Rin, a shame that imbalanced His Majesty” and later “His Majesty was devastated by his son’s death […]”). By the end of Prophecies, when we meet him again during The Last Day Dawns, he shows signs of having given up on life. He’s a depressed man with little hope but still stubborn by this point (again, reaffirmed by Savione’s words in GoA – “he became more determined than ever to stand up against the charr and prove his son wrong-that he could save the kingdom, single-handedly if needbe.”) – and that kind of personality falls quickly to insanity. I just cannot see in how he’s presented to be a man who’d proactive go about trying to make another child, or bother with a non-lineage successor given his “we will win!” mentality (I wouldn’t doubt he had intended Barradin to take the throne should he fall though).

Besides, if he did such, he likely would have sent that person to Ebonhawke since there’s minor indication that Adelbern sent those people there as a contingency plan of sorts should Ascalon City fall (though there’s also indications that he was just sending out anyone who disagreed with him – another sign of insanity). Since there’s no known announced successor, unless it’d be Wade’s family, he probably didn’t do such and the second situation (he outcasted folks) was more true.

Frosch.7809:

So let me redefine, my theory is that there may be an heir to the royal line of Adelbern yet undiscovered, maybe known to the Order of Whispers, because of some small hints ingame and because it would fit with the overall mood of the game. To me it seemed like you said that it was impossible.

What’s impossible is that anyone – ANYONE – would know about it other than Adelbern himself given that Savione didn’t (and there’d be no point in saying Rurik was his only son if so). And even then, it’s beyond likely. You might as well say Kormir was never human.

Konig

Adelbern wasn’t portrayed as mad until that novel came out, you’re misrepresenting him based on a tendancy to take only the most recent writings as genuine. That’s bad research.

GW1 is its own complete story. And while GW2 uses that story as the backbone for its own lore, the GW1 story is still valid in its own right. If you think that’s nonsense consider this: GW1 can exist complete without GW2, the same cannot be said in reverse.

At any rate, if we do things your way and only take the most up-to-date lore as valid, then nothing is really out of the question. ANet could simply write whatever they want tomorrow, claim it as canon, and we’d have to accept it.

My bet is Adelbern’s heir is a Charr/human mix. Out of insane rage over his kingdom falling, he couldn’t help himself one night with a female Charr prisoner. He unleashed the Foefire so no one would ever know.

Would a known descendant make any diffrence anyway? The charr waited 1000 years to take back the lands of ascalon. they overthrew the shaman cast because it was oppressive to them. they still wanted the lands back though and after the shamn casts fell, the charr continued to war effort to maintain their hold on the lands.

they learned that they don’t need gods and have a permanent solution in the works to deal with the ghosts. the charr have no reason to give up anything. so the only diffrence a descendant can make is if jenna dies and is replaced by this possible descednat in oder to just…. arbitrarily take her place.

Obsidian.1328:

Konig
Adelbern wasn’t portrayed as mad until that novel came out, you’re misrepresenting him based on a tendancy to take only the most recent writings as genuine. That’s bad research.

I could make a case for him being at least “unhinged” as of War in Kryta. Rather than even begin listening to someone from Kryta, he let Evennia stew outside Ascalon City. He really could have used allies, at that point, but not Krytans. Heck, he could have used it before when it was the White Mantle come to call.

I would say that the years after Prince Rurik died soured him and watching Ascalon still slowly die under his people caused dementia to set in.

GW1 is its own complete story. And while GW2 uses that story as the backbone for its own lore, the GW1 story is still valid in its own right. If you think that’s nonsense consider this: GW1 can exist complete without GW2, the same cannot be said in reverse.

Yes and no. While ancient lore is important, the game is written with enough redundant talk to allow someone who never touched GW1 to get the basic gist of what went on in the past. Some of it is biased (Charr/Human interactions), but there is not exactly a requirement to have played the first game to get what’s going on.

At any rate, if we do things your way and only take the most up-to-date lore as valid, then nothing is really out of the question. ANet could simply write whatever they want tomorrow, claim it as canon, and we’d have to accept it.

As the people who do the writing and hold the license, that’s their right. I know us geeks are supposed to hate him, but George Lucas did the same thing. And Gene Roddenberry tended to waffle a lot on what exactly could be included/excluded. Luckily, these are two big examples of canon being a little . . . twisted.

If you want worse examples, go take a look at Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance. Both of these were slightly notorious for altering history by the authors’ whims. Sometimes not entirely for the worse.

^

WiK was EotN(GW2prelude), and therefore anti-Adelbern. And he was right not to trust the Mantle. And you thinking dementia setting in is a personal opinion.

And you misread the middle part. You can get the jist of the lore just fine through the GW2 game. But if GW1 never existed, niether would GW2 in any recognizable fashion. The same is not true reversed.

And who cares if it’s “their right.” That doesn’t make “make it right.” Licensing rights and doing the right thing are two very different things. One is a legal principle, the other is a subjective ideal…usually judged by your peers. You seem to think they are equal somehow.

Lucas was wrong, very wrong, in his portrayal of young Vader for instance. We have the right to judge it because like any work of art it doesn’t exist in the dark in a vacuum. It’s authentic truth will always be compared to the original Vader. If Lucas didn’t want that to happen, then he shouldn’t have released episodes I-III, or perhaps just not released them to the public. Having the entirety of the nerds in this world bemoaning him for this does matter.

Obsidian.1328:

And you misread the middle part. You can get the jist of the lore just fine through the GW2 game. But if GW1 never existed, niether would GW2 in any recognizable fashion. The same is not true reversed.

Well, yes, that’s why there’s a “2” in the title. Not to mention there wouldn’t have been funding to release it if they hadn’t released the first game. So you’re completely correct: Guild Wars 1 is the reason we have Guild Wars 2.

. . . but it stands alone fine. The exposition to understand what intrudes onto the necessary plot of Guild Wars 2 is present.

And who cares if it’s “their right.” That doesn’t make “make it right.” Licensing rights and doing the right thing are two very different things. One is a legal principle, the other is a subjective ideal…usually judged by your peers. You seem to think they are equal somehow.

No, I think “doing the right thing” is entirely subjective. Based on each person’s opinion, cultural background, bias, and upbringing. And while it can be judged by “their peers”, you misunderstand one very specific thing. _We are not their peers. We are their consumers. _

And I think that evaluating whether they were “right to” do something with their game is very selfish of me to apply my personal tastes to something which is not solely created for me. Therefore, I question whether it is their right rather than wondering if they were keeping with what I saw in the original.

My opinion of what should have happened or what needed to happen is irrelevant to the story we were given. It’s not for me to decide what happens, it’s not for you, and it’s not for Konig. Saying it is “wrong” because it’s not your perceived natural course for the story to take is rather similar to saying a meal is cooked wrong because you don’t like one ingredient.

Lucas was wrong, very wrong, in his portrayal of young Vader for instance. We have the right to judge it because like any work of art it doesn’t exist in the dark in a vacuum. It’s authentic truth will always be compared to the original Vader. If Lucas didn’t want that to happen, then he shouldn’t have released episodes I-III, or perhaps just not released them to the public. Having the entirety of the nerds in this world bemoaning him for this does matter.

When considering any work of art, it is important to take it on its own to evaluate as much as it is to take the context of the work or the whole of a series of works by that artist. This is a very basic thing. Art does not exist in a vacuum, but each piece should be able to stand up on its own without the support of outside influences.

Works derived from an original can be examined through the lens of the original to see how they stack up. This is why most fanfiction can be regarded as “crap” even if its technical aspects work. However, it is equally important to step aside and look at it on its own and see how it holds up without that lens.

When evaluating one piece derived from another, it is vitally important not to let that lens distort the actual piece you are looking at. Each work is an individual object to be viewed, and must hold up on its own or the artist has failed in creativity.

And before you say it, Guild Wars 2 does hold up on its own.

As for the portrayal of Anakin? I could come up with several reasons why it does work, and several more why it doesn’t. But it comes down to the idea people viewing those films decided they had a say in how the character was “supposed to be”. Again, that is not their right to decide, it is that of the writer. The fans do not have a right to tell the artist what to do, even if they think it would be better if this one detail was changed.

I still don’t like the prelude trilogy as much as the original, but that’s not the point. It’s not my place to determine what the artist does.

Obsidian.1328:

Adelbern wasn’t portrayed as mad until that novel came out, you’re misrepresenting him based on a tendancy to take only the most recent writings as genuine. That’s bad research.

While he was never said “Adelbern is going insane” I think he does come off as entering the brink of insanity after the Searing.

Though I may be misinterpretting massive stubbornness and depression being combined into one as being “brink of insanity” – but hey, that IS a brink of insanity for normal folks.

Obsidian.1328:

GW1 is its own complete story. And while GW2 uses that story as the backbone for its own lore, the GW1 story is still valid in its own right. If you think that’s nonsense consider this: GW1 can exist complete without GW2, the same cannot be said in reverse.

I never said GW1 isn’t its own complete story. However, GW2 can survive without GW1. If it couldn’t then GW1 couldn’t survive without a game or story about 200 years prior to GW1, when so many massive things happened – Odran, titans coming before the charr, Shiro Tagachi and the Jade Wind, Mad King Thorn and Palawa Joko and Turai. GW1 can survive without a story explaining these as much as GW2 can survive without GW1.

Obsidian.1328:

At any rate, if we do things your way and only take the most up-to-date lore as valid, then nothing is really out of the question. ANet could simply write whatever they want tomorrow, claim it as canon, and we’d have to accept it.

That’s not the way I do things or say to do things. Perhaps if you let your personal feelings not blind you, you’d see something objectively.

What I say isn’t “new lore overtakes old lore” – otherwise we’d be taking Thruln the Lost as truthful when half of what he says is outright wrong – what I say is that “objective truth>subjective truth.” In this case, while Savione may be a bit subjective against Adelbern, he’d still be objective in regards to how many children he had. Similarly, the History of Tyria would be subjective from a human’s point of view, and researching more in depth shows other subjective truths which can be used to find the common grounds that is the objective truth.

Ever heard the phrase “within 100 lies there is at least one truth”? Same concept, it’s just subjective truths and objective truths respectively (and less numbers on the subjective truths).

Tobias

Hmm, I guess I’m taking a broader view of “peers” here. If you limit it to only peeps who have ever been involved in creating a game, that’s a very small group. Besides, all works of art are judged by people in general, not just other artists. There are lousy critics out there to be sure, but that doesn’t mean any critic who’s never produced a particular form of art should not be heard.

And I’m not “applying my personal tastes” here. On the contrary, I’m just pointing out inconsistencies with thematic details of the narrative that go against a contextual understanding of the first game. It’s true I like certain things about the first game better, but my argument is simply based on observations made between both games. I would do the same with anything else if I had to, regardless of personal tastes.

You’re right art should be able to stand up on it’s own without outside influences. But GW1 isn’t an outside influence, it’s inherent to the very nature of GW2 itself. Now if we want to talk about this game’s lore without any notion of the first game, well…sure…it “holds up” its own. That’s not exactly what we’re discussing though. Anytime you reference something a previous source has already defined, it only makes sense to run a comparison.

You’re right that fans don’t have the right to tell an artist what to do, but they do have a right to have an opinion on it. Lucas was probably trying to show that it was emotional trauma and loss that drove Anakin over the brink, who really knows, but either the acting was lousy or the writing wasn’t convincing enough. Now George can simply ignore any criticisms, but if the opinion is shown to carry weight…it’s still a valid point.

Konig

I still don’t know how you see insanity as a foregone conclusion. True, he went too far with telling Rurik to go eff himself. But he could hardly afford division within the ranks given the situation…Ascalon was hurting bad. As for being depressed after defeating the Titan’s, that’s pretty darn understandable too. His kingdom was in tatters, and his son was dead after all. That hardly makes a person insane though. It makes sense now because of the direction the books went and the fact that his “crazy old man” image is hammered into our brains in AC.

Eh, nice try but GW1 doesn’t have anything to reference to it except itself. Leaving things unexplained doesn’t matter in that sense because you aren’t referencing it to anything else. GW2 heavily borrows lore from GW1, and as such, relies on said lore as a way to legitimize itself as a valid evolution of material. If it didn’t want it to be tied to GW1, they should have called it something different and used different place/people names. Then we wouldn’t have to have this ongoing rant.

I don’t know what you mean by personal feelings with me, I’m only commenting on things that I think need to be explained. Aren’t you doing the same thing?

You’re quote, “You impute a great deal of rationalism to a man who had clearly gone mad.”
If I think this remark is unfounded, why should I take another of his ideas as valid? Savione is born out of the same minds that decided to take GW2 into all these new directions, a lot of which don’t jive with the original. Why would I consider him an expert on GW1 lore when a) he’s not real… b) he’s a part of this new face of Tyria.

In reality, I’m using objective truths to support a subjective agenda. As long as I see things that look to be contrary to the objective truth of the original game, I will subjectively call them out. Adelbern’s insanity was never a foregone conclusion until this new material came out. So if some dude who thinks that also claims it’s impossible he had an heir…I find him untrustworthy as a fictional character. Even so, the author’s take on the whole fiasco is off the mark so Savione is doubly untrustworthy.

I’m a purist of sorts. I am the same way with Faramir in the LotR movies…they royally messed up his portrayal too. He would have never tried to bring the Ring back to Gondor.

Regardless, until some legit dude from ANet, be it Jess Lebow or whoever, decides to comment somewhere, anywhere, on the legitimacy of GW2 lore in relation to how it was written and intended in GW1, I’ll continue to call out things that I find objectionable to that truth.