Guild Wars 2

Hi, I was thinking that, how strong as a race is each playable race? Because I think everyone has seen the Charr forts with turrets, and their tanks, guns, they got a proper armed army etc, and I play Norn…..and so far the only thing that I have seen is that they are physically strong, and are great hunters, they don’t seem to have anything going for them at all, same with the Slyvari.

The humans are similar to the charr, they got a proper army and everything, and the asura got their golems, lasers etc.

Is there more to the norn and slyvari that I have not come across or don’t know about? They seem weak in comparison.

The norn, taken as a race, are possibly the least militarily powerful of the races – but the flipside is that individually they’re probably the most powerful. The great heroes (including the PCs) of each race are about the same (although I’m beginning to think that it’s possible that the most powerful spellcasters are human – asura have more theoretical knowledge of magic and have their magitech to fall back on, but human NPCs do impressive things with magic alone) – however, where a typical charr is a soldier, and the typical member of another race is basically a civilian, among norn being an adventurer is the norm. After all, lorewise being able to assume animal form is common among the norn, while a human or sylvari using a racial elite is something rare and unusual.

Another thing the norn have going for them is spirituality – unlike humans, they still have regular communion with the objects of their religion, and that religion being focused on animal spirits means they also have a communion with nature.

As for sylvari… well. Wait for the personal storyline to show you. :P

On the whole, there seems to be a bit of an inverse relationship between temporal power and attunement to the Mists. Charr and asura are very much bound to logic and the physical world, while the strengths of the norn and sylvari are more… intangible. Humans sit somewhere roughly in the middle… and if anyone, they seem to be ArenaNet’s redheaded stepchildren at the moment. There’s nothing where humans are clearly the best, and opportunities to give them a chance to shine have generally been missed while other races steal the limelight.

The Asuran have proven empirically (it’s scientific fact—you don’t get to argue with it) that certain races are more important to the Eternal Alchemy (that is, the Universe) than others. The ranking is thus:
Asura > Sylvari > Charr > Humans > Norn
I may have the order of those last two mixed up, but I believe that’s correct. Either way, they’re such distant contenders that it hardly matters.

I’d like to see the source, but even so, coming from the asura I’d regard it about as objective as the kodan claim that they represent the highest peak of enlightenment.

As much as I despise the special snowflake tendencies and erratic shift from a tribal to a technological society, the charr are likely the ‘strongest’ race given some of their recent feats and accomplishments. Much like the orcs of WoW are inexplicitly painted as the strongest race in Blizzard’s setting. In both cases, indirect developer bias makes it appear so.

The norn are pretty strong in theory, or at least they were in GW1. The transition to a mainstream MMO seems to have made them fall prey to being the token drunkard race who are more likely to be used for cheap slapstick humour (much like the dwarves of WoW) instead of having the more interesting and spiritual aspects of their society highlighted.

Asura are arguably the most intelligent and inventive, though seem to be obscured at times by the charr. Humans are in a poor position at the moment, but seem relatively powerful – at least enough to hold onto Kryta and Ebonhawke despite unfavourable odds.

Note that, in terms of what they can add to the war effort, most of the races are likely quite even. Asura and charr are the strongest, due to their huge technological advantages, but each has serious problems that limits their ability to fight the dragons. Asuran tech is a bit… unreliable, and not all war-focused – my asura’s personal story involved a research project and a magic 8 ball, neither of which is all that useful for killing dragons. There’s also the apparently congenital ego the size of an Elder Dragon, making it less likely that they’d work as cohesively in an army.

Meanwhile, the charr are fighting a war on a dozen sides (ghosts; containing the Dragonbrand which is really 2 fronts because they own the land on either side, Ebonhawke excepted; Flame Legion, etc.). Humans have the ongoing war with the centaurs weakening them, while sylvari and norn really only have their evil counterparts (Svanir and Nightmare Court) to fight, and neither is in a full-on state of war against the race. Heck, Svanir even have a portion of Hoelbrak, so they can’t be that antagonistic.

Charr or asura

Tanks, guns, mortars, cannons, those really big tanks we never seen in action. Charr have it all

The asura have golems, mega cannons, and other things that look quite clearly asuran designed (the guns in most pact locations)

Hell the champion ABL-01 probably puts asura near the top of the list by himself. That dudes a monster.

Just as I thought, sigh, It kind of put me in a down mood while leveling, seeing the Charr with these forts etc, and all I see is Norn hunters running around……what the Norn contribute to the combined effort of these 5 races is beginning to seem….rather lackluster, like, why are they even in the war effort to begin with? They don’t seem to do anything or have anything to back the others up.

I guess they could act as scouts, assassins, or heavy front line troops, but that’s nothing compared to a human army marching forward, or the Charr just leveling the area to dust with bombs….

Me, as a lore nerd am at the moment, disappointed at the apparent lack of contribution, and the ability to actually do anything meaningful from the Slyvari and Norn. :/

Er, the sylvari were the ones who lead the Pact effort, via Trahearne, and Caithe was the only one of Destiny’s Edge who spent the entire time trying to put the group back together.

I’ll give you norn seeming useless, but the sylvari had huge organizational impacts on the resistance movements.

I’d like to remind everyone in this thread that the sylvari are only 25 years old. To get as far as they have in such a short time is an accomplishment. They’re high in the ranks of the Orders, they’re lab assistants to the asura at times, etc. As for the norn, as it’s been stated, they’re probably the most powerful as individuals. While the other races have their civilians, the norn are just straight up adventurers.

Technically speaking, the asura would be the most powerful. They have golems – troops that do not cause actual casualties when they are destoyed, just economic loss. And on economic terms, they are very, very far ahead of the other races, as they control the primary form of transport (Asura gates), and haven’t been locked in a thousand year war like the humans and charr, the only other races that have an organized government that uses money. On top of that, their capital, Rata Sum, flies, making it very defensible.

Militarily, economically? Most likely Charr. Though at the moment they are taking assaults from several fronts as well as a spread out military. Asura or most definitely the smartest and tech savvy, but lets be honest, they don’t make the goods the Charr can put out, atleast not ones that all the other races would understand (i’m sure you Asurans can see the compliment in that)
But I think you all underestimate or don’t quite understand the Norn’s role in this ‘alliance’ Sure, they aren’t a organized military power but as stated, each Norn is an adventurer and are heavily enthralled with the ‘stuff of Legend’ whether it be, taking on the mighty Jormag alone, to setting up the perfect trap and taking down a dozen minotaur as a Hunter. Norn heavily strive for those moments of amazing feats (to most likely boast about in the evenings moot)
Their spirits aren’t just idle statues, they are tangible as in when the Dragons attacked. Out in open war, sure, the Norn aren’t the top dog, but that isn’t how they really are.

Charr strong?

Yeah man, look at how they took ebonhawke.

Either the Asura or the Humans should be among the wealthies nations, not because there’s something special about their genes, but because they have access or are near the sea. Shipping goods via water is an order of magnitude cheaper than shipping them via land. Typically, it’s worth is 10 times cheaper than overland. This simple fact makes countries with robust maritime transport options extremely capital-rich when compared to countries limited to land-only options.

The Charr, on the other hand, are severly limited because they are almost isolated from the rest of the continent due the presence of the Shiverpeaks mountains. That means that the Charr can trade only with themselves and the Norn without using the Asura Gate. They seems more in favor of Planned Economy or State Capitalism at best and their only advantage is the industrialized Iron Legion, but even then, I have doubts they are much interested outside military war-machines.

Sure, we can argue that the asura gate solve the issue, but if that is the case, why people still bother with naval ships, caravans and so on? In fact, I recall hearing that using an asura gate is very expensive.

One other thing to note that the Norn bring to the ‘alliance’, so to speak, is craftsmanship. The best metalsmith and craftsman in GW1 was not one of the Dwarves, a race spanning back milennia with the finest known metal. It was, in fact, a Norn; Gunnar Poundfist, a man who had beaten the Dwarves at their own game, so to speak.

With Beigarth, the Norn continue this tradition; forging the finest weapons and armour on Tyria. Being such perfectionists, Norn craftsmanship is the gold standard of metalworks, or so it appears from NPC’s in the game.

So they not only bring the most individually powerful members, each Norn being a walking siege engine by themselves (metaphorically speaking, of course), they also bring the greatest craftsmanship in Tyria.

Norn are individualists, all obsessed with making their own legend. That’s not to say they can’t work together, but it does mean they seem less concerned with making a norn racial legacy. Their culture ties them closely to nature and the wilderness, so they’re not inclined to transform it through technological development. Let’s not forget their physical size and strength, though…and the fact they can turn into big kitten bears and stuff. (Man I hope that gets censored as ‘big-kitten’…)

The charr’s “erratic shift from a tribal to a technological society” is not that erratic in my view – they’ve had plenty of time, but more to the point I think you can trace a cultural continuity. Their association with fire and its destructive potential leads nicely into gunpowder and explosives. Their adoption of gods in the past was part of a search for something that could give them power over other races, and having rejected religion outright, technology was a logical next step to the same goal. Plus, they’re still suitably tribal in some ways… I mean, the Iron Legion (now dominant) has basically taken machinery as its totem!

The sylvari are to a large extent mediators and motivators. The fact they they each tend to have a specialty makes the individuals sometimes useful, but having less history and baggage in Tyria their motivations are clearer. They consider it their racial purpose (or some do) to make this war against the dragons happen. Humans are probably the least powerful I would say, having neither racial unity nor physical strength, or special technology, magic or a role in the world. Still, humans struggle on and pull off miracles. It’s what we do!

The Sylvari are immune to the corruption of the dragons. They are also able to grow organic weapons, such as seed turrets and vines.

All the races apart from the Humans have very clear strengths that contribute.

The charr are very obvious with their industry and strong military tradition. Their contribution is in both hardware and in structure and in method. Do remember the brute strength contribution to the Pact comes from the Vigil that was built by a charr.

The Asura have a technomagical mastery that gives the Vigil a very strong science base. The Asura dont have the mechanical or mundane technology of the charr. In this the charr are actually more advanced than the Asura. However the Asura’s magitech allows them to produce powerful and specialised counters to the enemy.

The Sylvari bring a mysticism and a unique magic to the pact. As stated before they have an apparent immunity to the dragon’s corruptions, just dying instead of turning into a minion. They also have both an unusual affinity for the land. These valuable traits combine with a nature magic that allows them to grow defensive structures like the Jacktooth Impalers (the thorn walls) we see in Orr with great speed and repair them at great speed too.

The norn bring the norn. Individually a norn is a powerful creature capable of shapeshifting and great strength. They also bring their smithing and their metalergy skills including the rediscovered method of making Deldremor Steel. Finally they bring a very strong spiritual expertise. There havrouns and shamans have very strong connections to the spirits and the mists. We see this contribution several times throughout the games.

The humans mainly seem the odd ones out because no particular strength is ever showcased. We see more of how far humanity has fallen and what they could do 250 years ago than what they can do know. We also hear about them contibuting in a vague way without it being very apparent in the results.

Perhaps this is because we really lack a clear measuring stick to rate the humans with. They certainly win in stonecraft but masonary work doesnt play a big role in the story. There heritage seems more like something they have lost than something that is the basis for their strength.

Perhaps the most difficult part is the stated strengths of the humans (their tenacity and adaptability) seem like hardly unique characteristics. These are more generic heroic traits. Certainly groups like the Sentinals show a great deal of both tenacity and adaptability. Pact soldiers in general do as well.

I dont think this means humans are overly generic. They have a unique style to them and their culture. I think though the advantages lack any notable examples in the game world. Instead we generally see the strength humanity has lost. Its almost kind of tragic in tone.

Lorewise the norn are VERY formidable, they were on par with the charr (yuck yuck yuck) and each race had a reluctant respect for the other. It is said that a norn could take on an entire warband of charr.

For obvious balance reasons that part has been downplayed but it was basically IF they happened to ever band together for whatever reason watchout Tyria.

The norn are probably the Pact’s main source of champions – the heroes that will deliberately seek out the nastiest things on the other side and take them out or die trying. While all races will have some of those (the PCs for a start…) for most races someone willing to do that will be exceptional, while for the norn it’s the norm.

On humans… one thing that is worth noting is that of the three organisations that made up the Pact, two were founded by humans (even if the Priory is now being led by an asura). I’d dare say that humans are possibly the most politically-savvy of the major races simply because their politics are more complicated than anyone else’s – a double edged sword because some of that is turned on themselves and weakening their own war efforts, but humans might well have an advantage on knowing how to keep working together despite having different (if compatible) goals, interests and methods… and in being able to pick when someone isn’t playing by the rules and having more subtle ways of dealing with them.

That’s not to say that other races are completely lacking in political-savvy, but it’s thing like the end of the CM story with Jennah saying that clearly Caudecus didn't have anything to do with the attack and therefor the manor was no longer safe for him and he should enter protective custody at the palace - in other words, effectively being arrested and placed somewhere where the Shining Blade can keep a careful eye on him, but where he can't refuse or find some legal loophole to worm through if he'd been arrested in the conventional sense.. Now, I’m not saying that other races wouldn’t be able to come up with something like that, but it does seem like it would be more likely to be second-nature to a human that’s grown up in that environment. However, that’s a subtle contribution by nature and not something that’s as in-your-face as the charr or asura.

Still, it is true (and a shame) that ArenaNet seems to have really done humans a disservice with the heritage thing. It was spoken up prerelease as one of the advantages of humanity, but what we see is that that heritage has been pretty much destroyed, and even when it comes to knowledge of that heritage, they’re outclassed by Trahearne (now the foremost expert on Orr) and Gixx (now head of the Durmand Priory*). It seems as if ArenaNet may have overcompensated somewhat with the withdrawal of the gods – they wanted to stop humans from appearing as the most important, but instead they’ve made them appear to be possibly the least important.

One thing that I hope we might see with that heritage is if and when older races like the Seers, Forgotten, or stone dwarves apart from Ogden come back into play – such races might know and relatively trust humans where they have less experience with the other races.

*Which, incidentally, lead to missing an opportunity in the follow-up to the first Battle of Claw Island on the Priory line. This basically involves invoking the power of a relic of Balthazar to transform into an avatar of Balthazar and basically single-handedly defend the beach from a Risen invasion, up to and including the wraith in charge. This could have been the opportunity to give human characters a Crowning Moment of Awesome and humans in general a moment of validation comparable to the asura seeing a megalaser in action or a charr looking at a tank or airship. Instead, you get Gixx denigrating both Balthazar and the human ritualists actually performing the ritual (two of which die) and generally treating the relic as just another magic item - if you don't happen to notice that the ritualists were human, you could come out of it thinking that humans weren't necessary at all. Now, this is all in character for Gixx, but if it had been a priest of Balthazar presiding and the ritual was expressly stated to have come out of human religious teachings, then it would be a lot harder to come out of that step thinking that humans aren't contributing.

draxynnic.3719:

On humans… one thing that is worth noting is that of the three organisations that made up the Pact, two were founded by humans (even if the Priory is now being led by an asura). I’d dare say that humans are possibly the most politically-savvy of the major races simply because their politics are more complicated than anyone else’s – a double edged sword because some of that is turned on themselves and weakening their own war efforts, but humans might well have an advantage on knowing how to keep working together despite having different (if compatible) goals, interests and methods… and in being able to pick when someone isn’t playing by the rules and having more subtle ways of dealing with them.

That’s not to say that other races are completely lacking in political-savvy, but it’s thing like the end of the CM story with Jennah saying that clearly Caudecus didn't have anything to do with the attack and therefor the manor was no longer safe for him and he should enter protective custody at the palace - in other words, effectively being arrested and placed somewhere where the Shining Blade can keep a careful eye on him, but where he can't refuse or find some legal loophole to worm through if he'd been arrested in the conventional sense.. Now, I’m not saying that other races wouldn’t be able to come up with something like that, but it does seem like it would be more likely to be second-nature to a human that’s grown up in that environment. However, that’s a subtle contribution by nature and not something that’s as in-your-face as the charr or asura.

Still, it is true (and a shame) that ArenaNet seems to have really done humans a disservice with the heritage thing. It was spoken up prerelease as one of the advantages of humanity, but what we see is that that heritage has been pretty much destroyed, and even when it comes to knowledge of that heritage, they’re outclassed by Trahearne (now the foremost expert on Orr) and Gixx (now head of the Durmand Priory*). It seems as if ArenaNet may have overcompensated somewhat with the withdrawal of the gods – they wanted to stop humans from appearing as the most important, but instead they’ve made them appear to be possibly the least important.

One thing that I hope we might see with that heritage is if and when older races like the Seers, Forgotten, or stone dwarves apart from Ogden come back into play – such races might know and relatively trust humans where they have less experience with the other races.

*Which, incidentally, lead to missing an opportunity in the follow-up to the first Battle of Claw Island on the Priory line. This basically involves invoking the power of a relic of Balthazar to transform into an avatar of Balthazar and basically single-handedly defend the beach from a Risen invasion, up to and including the wraith in charge. This could have been the opportunity to give human characters a Crowning Moment of Awesome and humans in general a moment of validation comparable to the asura seeing a megalaser in action or a charr looking at a tank or airship. Instead, you get Gixx denigrating both Balthazar and the human ritualists actually performing the ritual (two of which die) and generally treating the relic as just another magic item - if you don't happen to notice that the ritualists were human, you could come out of it thinking that humans weren't necessary at all. Now, this is all in character for Gixx, but if it had been a priest of Balthazar presiding and the ritual was expressly stated to have come out of human religious teachings, then it would be a lot harder to come out of that step thinking that humans aren't contributing.

Although two of the orders were founded by humans, this again strikes me as an issue of heritage no longer relevant. In most cases, the major human founded organisations are now multi racial. This includes Zaishen who we see members of in Lions arch.

Its more an issue of what is relevant now. Focusing too much on what humans did along time ago kind of only shows up how they no longer have the same importance, even in said groups.

draxynnic.3719:

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And there you go again. Just why should humans need the help of asura to invoke their own deities? Asura already have enough awesome, they don’t need to steal everyone else’s.

Didn’t anyone watch the EOTN cut scenes? They repeatedly explained that the norn have no armies because they don’t need armies – a small group of norn acting independantly, or temporarily banding together are as strong as a an army of the other races.

At least in lore. Obviously for gameplay reasons they can’t make norn characters significantly stronger but that’s the idea.

Never forget…

Before Destiny’s edge, before the pact, the orders…

The Norn battled Jormag… by themselves with no tanks, no cannons, no allies… not even a united effort just a few Norn stood alone against a freaking elder dragon.

Yes, they lost but they have a tooth to prove that they are not to be taken lightly.

Danikat.8537:

Didn’t anyone watch the EOTN cut scenes? They repeatedly explained that the norn have no armies because they don’t need armies – a small group of norn acting independantly, or temporarily banding together are as strong as a an army of the other races.

At least in lore. Obviously for gameplay reasons they can’t make norn characters significantly stronger but that’s the idea.

More so because of culture then their power level. They don’t really have a government or anything, just someone builds a homestead and other Norns kind of drift there and move in for a while. The builder tends to be a quasi leader but if they don’t like him they just leave with no real issue. They’re not really organized enough for formal armies since it’s against how they think. Their individual power most liekly grows so high as a result of this.

But there are limits on physical power, and to a lesser extent on how skilled a person can get in one lifetime (a level cap, if you will). Norn have a pretty high limit on their personla strength/growth compared to most!

Their social organisation and culture do all encourage individualism, but they’re quite capable of joining together if they feel a threat justifies it. Jormag was a problem for everyone, so everyone will fight him. This is especially different to going on a hunt to seek an enemy – the dragons are a threat to be defended against. Anyway, my point in the norn can band together, they just don’t unless they have to. Why share the glory if you can do it alone?

Danikat.8537:

Didn’t anyone watch the EOTN cut scenes? They repeatedly explained that the norn have no armies because they don’t need armies – a small group of norn acting independantly, or temporarily banding together are as strong as a an army of the other races.

At least in lore. Obviously for gameplay reasons they can’t make norn characters significantly stronger but that’s the idea.

I already said pretty much exactly this haha.

Legion.4198:

Either the Asura or the Humans should be among the wealthies nations, not because there’s something special about their genes, but because they have access or are near the sea. Shipping goods via water is an order of magnitude cheaper than shipping them via land. Typically, it’s worth is 10 times cheaper than overland. This simple fact makes countries with robust maritime transport options extremely capital-rich when compared to countries limited to land-only options.

Having access to the sea is one thing; actually using that to your advantage is another. That said, neither Asura nor the Krytans use the sea. I have a feeling the Asura are flat out ignoring it while the Krytans are plain incompetent. I mean, their port city has its beaches stormed and its fortress taken in a single amphibious assault by a small Orrian fleet. Storytelling in Lion’s Arch makes no sense.

The city has portions of it made of huge ships. Inhabitants seem knowledgeable in seafaring. Some military commanders will speak of cannons on kittenging Ships of the line. And yet, there are no military ships in the harbour; the fortress is armed with catapults or trebuchets, not cannons; there are no patrols that keep the sea borders safe. For a coastal city with such knowledge of seafaring, not having a fleet stationed near is suicide. The Orrians basically just show up on their doorstep and storm the beaches. Their fleet approaches the city without being challenged or even detected!

With such flagrant incompetence, Lion’s Arch deserves to be destroyed and its ground salted.

P.S. Submarine properties of Orrian sail ships need to be addressed in a separate topic. I mean – wth?

What do humans bring to the table? They bring the manpower that fills the gaps between heroes, because they feel it is their duty to. They bring the workers that build fortifications that others improve on with their special skills. The heritage of humanity is the crown they must protect, the candlelight they can’t let dim. They have their history, which both binds them and gives them a reason to fight.
Humans bring their resolve.

EDIT: Oh, and since Orr rose from the sea, sea travel has been too dangerous, which makes sea connection a moot point

England faced dangerous sea travel in the forms of Spanish, French and Dutch navies. Guess how that turned out.

I’m not buying that whole “sentient species is inferior to mindless zombies in regards of maritime warfare” argument.

How about the entire southern sea floor rising up and forming the whole coastline anew, filled with nearly endless amount of walking, swimming, fighting corpses? I’d say not many merchant ships would take that bet.

A Ship of the line is not a merchant ship; it is a warship armed to the teeth. Sails. Masts. Whatever. My point was – Lion’s Arch has no navy whatsoever even though they are aware of the concept of a warhsip and have had difficulties with pirates even before Orr surfaced. That should have provided them with enough experience to sit down, discuss and build a navy capable of protecting their trading vessles and keeping the Canthan trade route open.

Tuomir.1830:

What do humans bring to the table? They bring the manpower that fills the gaps between heroes, because they feel it is their duty to. They bring the workers that build fortifications that others improve on with their special skills. The heritage of humanity is the crown they must protect, the candlelight they can’t let dim. They have their history, which both binds them and gives them a reason to fight.
Humans bring their resolve.

EDIT: Oh, and since Orr rose from the sea, sea travel has been too dangerous, which makes sea connection a moot point

The problem with sea travel has mainly been Zhaitan. He hasnt exactly been letting anyone past. With him dead we will probably see sea access open up…. until Bubbles starts causing problems.

For the humans, I know what you say, in theory, is true but all those traits minus there heritage is not really anything unique to humans. We see all the other races provide manpower, resolve, dedication in equal amounts to the humans and often more in the way of specialised skills. The mobile and rapidly constructed defences that the Pact use in Orr look far more influenced by sylvari, charr and asura construction and technology.

More over the game mainly shows us the heritage that humanity has lost rather than what it has retained. When human expertise is used, its often somewhat undermined by the presence of influences by the other races.

Infact human expertise plays very little in the way of importance in the Orr invasion. Its said human engineers contributed to the airships along with the asura, building of the charr design but we dont see much to indicate that. Perhaps humans have expertise and perhaps their heritage has a lot to contribute but we just dont see it. Infact it seems that the asura and sylvari know more about Orr than the humans do.

Thats the problem. Its not neccesarily that humans dont have a contribution but Arenanet has given us so little sign of it in the story. It feels like that in the attempt to avoid sidelining the other races in Orr they overcompansated in the story till humanity plays mainly a backseat role, primarily just providing warm bodies. Orr instead feels like a showcase of everything that humanity has lost with the other races picking over the graves. It makes humanity seem kind of tragic.

But the Lion’s Arch today was built by those pirates. After the sea routes were lost, I figure the need for a navy seemed smaller, as nothing was getting through the undead, and the undead weren’t coming over – at the time. True, they were terribly unprepared like so many PUG first timers going for AC explorable at level 30.

EDIT: What I meant by the resolve of the humans coming from their heritage is that humans used to be the top dogs in Tyria, but their age of glory is fading, other races rising above them. This is why they must give all they’ve got, because they can’t excel in anything specific over the other races. For the Sylvari, it’s their destiny to fight the dragons. For the Norn, it’s their legend. The Charr have their duty, and for the Asura it’s the logical course of action. For humans, in addition to protecting their homes and lands, it’s about protecting their glory, the history where they defeated liches, vengeful spirits of emperor slayers and fallen gods. That is what the heritage of humanity is. In other words, they’ve got guts, and they’ve got their pride to uphold.

slafko.1807:

A Ship of the line is not a merchant ship; it is a warship armed to the teeth. Sails. Masts. Whatever. My point was – Lion’s Arch has no navy whatsoever even though they are aware of the concept of a warhsip and have had difficulties with pirates even before Orr surfaced. That should have provided them with enough experience to sit down, discuss and build a navy capable of protecting their trading vessles and keeping the Canthan trade route open.

What do you base the idea that Lion’s Arch has no navy? Its navy is mainly comprised of multiple independent vessels. Do remember that it is ruled by a council of captains. Its quite likely that they keep their ships moored outside the harbour of Loin’s Arch unless unloading cargo.

Tuomir.1830:

But the Lion’s Arch today was built by those pirates.

That makes it even worse then. A maritime culture just abbandoning and forgetting where they came from leaving itself vulnerable to attack from the same Sea that made their civilization possible.

Lutinz.6915:

What do you base the idea that Lion’s Arch has no navy? Its navy is mainly comprised of multiple independent vessels. Do remember that it is ruled by a council of captains. Its quite likely that they keep their ships moored outside the harbour of Loin’s Arch unless unloading cargo.

You’re confusing merchant and war navies. While there obviously are merchant ships in LA’s navy, there seem to be no warships. At least not organized into a cohesive naval force. I base this idea on the simplest of facts mentioned in my previous posts – Orrian fleet arrving without challenge and forewarning.

Keeping ships moored outside the harbour is pretty expensive business, but you’re going in the right direction. The only way LA can be protected from the Orrian fleet is to have their own vessels positioned on the high seas, effectively blocking any and all attempts against Lion’s Arch. This is called a “fleet in being”. Orrians would not be able to sail out of their port unnoticed, amphibious attacks would be impossible for them to carry out and they would have to remain in port defending it and thusly lose the initiative on other fronts.

I find the whole idea that a bunch of zombies can outsmart and outclass a sentient species rather insulting.

Well Lion’s Arch doesnt really have a cohesive naval force but several of the ships the ruling Captians have are close to warships if they arent actually one. In Destiny’s Edge we hear of the leader of the Lionguard, a norn captian called Magnus the Red Handed, who was clashing with a champion of Zhaitan, an undead norn, that lead several of Zhaitan’s fleets. Its more an alliance of captains rather than a single cohesive entity. The Liongaurd would have probably been similar if they werent an inherited institution.

Also Im not sure that Lion’s Arch’s ships could get close enough to Orr to monitor Orr’s ship movements. We know they can be monitored since Trahearne was aware of a large force of Risen setting sail though it doesnt specify how he got that information. I suspect that the ships of Lion’s Arch are more interested in protecting shipping lanes than openly fighting Orr unless Risen invade. After all Lion’s Arch is powered by profit.

Your also underestimating Zhaitan’s Champions who are very self aware.

My point exactly – a coastal city, a big port without any ability to protect its merchant fleet or project naval power. They don’t even get off their collective kitten when the Undead surface and cut off their trading routes. Where’s the profit in having your trading lanes blocked? They had that invasion coming and, quite frankly, they’ve deserved it.

A wooden ship of the line is pretty much helpless against an enemy which has an effective submarine force, which Zhaitan does. With the game mechanics we’re shown, the main purpose for a surface fleet would be somewhere for the diving troops to rest and recuperate.

We do see the Lion’s Arch fleet in action in Edge of Destiny, but it’s only effective due to unconventional equipment.

There’s a pretty big and busy port full of massive cargo ships in Rata Sum. These ships bring everything that the Asura can’t or don’t bother to create in their capital. They even accept stolen goods from pirates so long they behave themselves. This means that sea trade is alive and well. So there must be fatal flaw when it comes to transport goods, or certain goods , through the Asura Gates. On the other hand, I suspect that Lion’s Arch (and most cities) are canonically bigger than what we see ingame for a simple matter of resources.

draxynnic.3719:

A wooden ship of the line is pretty much helpless against an enemy which has an effective submarine force, which Zhaitan does.

Zhaitan fleet is more a submersible fleet than a real submarine force with the exception of the undead sharks. In any case, given the state of disrepair of most Zhaitan fleets, it is likely that they are much slower than properly maintained ships.

While it is unlikely that the Dredge will share with us their sonic technology to use sonar, some devices made with asuran or human magic could do the job. After all, a ship is a good inversion to at least include some magical defense.

Some offensive weapons could be eventually developed against submarine forces but I doubt we will use them until we meet Bubbles or a civilization fighting against it. These include torpedoes (already exist), depth charges and naval mines.

There’s also the sheer numbers of ships to consider; remember, Zhaitan didn’t just have access to a few scattered pirate ships at the time of Orr’s rising. A list of all the things that Zhaitan has/could possibly raise from the depths:

-The entire Orrian navy

-The massive fleet of pirates that had made the ruined isles of Orr their home-base and haven. Imagine something akin to Lion’s Arch getting killed all at once.

-Any ship that has sunk before or since Zhaitan’s rising, whether from natural weather or warfare.

Taking those factors in to account, it’s not a case of Lion’s Arch not being unprepared; they’re just vastly outnumbered, by a force that doesn’t have to deal with things like logistics, who can travel entirely submerged, and for whom casualties aren’t a factor.

Not to mention you have the collected tactics and knowledge of hundreds of different captains at his command; since we know that anything his minions know/knew, Zhaitan knows.

Hence why nobody has made it through the Straits of Malchor in the century or so since Zhaitan’s rise, and why the Lionguard/Pact/anyone else tries to fight Zhaitan in the air or on land, where that massive navy won’t be an issue.

Edit: Ah, that’s not even factoring in two things I forgot to mention. One, that Zhaitan also has a substantial force of undersea fighting ability; from undead megalodons the size of fishing boats, to the vast forces of undead krait, quaggans, and hyleks that he has available. Plus the ever-present threat from the air, and the risk of biological weaponry.

slafko.1807:

Legion.4198:

Either the Asura or the Humans should be among the wealthies nations, not because there’s something special about their genes, but because they have access or are near the sea. Shipping goods via water is an order of magnitude cheaper than shipping them via land. Typically, it’s worth is 10 times cheaper than overland. This simple fact makes countries with robust maritime transport options extremely capital-rich when compared to countries limited to land-only options.

Having access to the sea is one thing; actually using that to your advantage is another. That said, neither Asura nor the Krytans use the sea. I have a feeling the Asura are flat out ignoring it while the Krytans are plain incompetent. I mean, their port city has its beaches stormed and its fortress taken in a single amphibious assault by a small Orrian fleet. Storytelling in Lion’s Arch makes no sense.

The city has portions of it made of huge ships. Inhabitants seem knowledgeable in seafaring. Some military commanders will speak of cannons on kittenging Ships of the line. And yet, there are no military ships in the harbour; the fortress is armed with catapults or trebuchets, not cannons; there are no patrols that keep the sea borders safe. For a coastal city with such knowledge of seafaring, not having a fleet stationed near is suicide. The Orrians basically just show up on their doorstep and storm the beaches. Their fleet approaches the city without being challenged or even detected!

With such flagrant incompetence, Lion’s Arch deserves to be destroyed and its ground salted.

P.S. Submarine properties of Orrian sail ships need to be addressed in a separate topic. I mean – wth?

It is stated in EoD that there are asuran vessel’s. Also LA is independent from Kryta.

Legion.4198:

Zhaitan fleet is more a submersible fleet than a real submarine force with the exception of the undead sharks. In any case, given the state of disrepair of most Zhaitan fleets, it is likely that they are much slower than properly maintained ships.

Or it could be that magic allows them to just not care about the things that normally slow ships down.

What I was really thinking about regarding submarine forces is that Risen fight perfectly fine underwater, and with breathing masks so do we. About the only thing a conventional sail-age ship of the line can do against someone coming underneath the hull and staving in the side, though, is to send out divers against it. In Earth’s Age of Sail, this wasn’t really an issue because a person couldn’t stay underwater long enough to bust through a thick wooden hull. Risen can.

Now, I say ‘conventional’, because between the asura and charr one could probably make a battleship (and yes, I think it would be at the stage where ‘battleship’ is more accurate than ‘ship of the line’) that’s perfectly capable of fighting underwater foes. However, while that might be the navy of the future for Lion’s Arch and/or the Pact, it’s not what Lion’s Arch has now. (It is worth noting here that even historically the switch between wooden ships and more modern-age vessels happened shockingly fast – wooden ships were still dominant during the American Civil War in the 1860s, while navies had pretty much upgraded to steel hulls by the late 1880s if not before. So I could see that switch happening pretty quickly, it’s just that it hasn’t happened yet.)

I’d like to shift to the Sylvari, as it is said (I’m no Sylvari expert) that Sylvari’s jobs are predetermined or specialize when they wake for certain skills. My question is does that only go so far as skills, or asthetically as well (evolve to overcome) if so I believe the Sylvari have the most potential of all the races
Being that they can be programmed to be the best at something, and lore wise is there size restrictions? If not, you have a highly adaptable race that is hardwired to be the best at a skill(s) set, quite interesting. Anyone savvy with Sylvari lore / story and such, i’d like to hear your opinions on this.

Lion’s Arch keeping their fleet in reserve and out of harm’s way is literally the only smart thing they could possibly done with it.

Let’s break down the factors: Based on what we’ve seen, the Humans use conventional wooden sailing vessels armed with broadside-style cannon placement.

The Risen have Bone Ships and Dead Ships. Now, the dead ships are pretty much identical to their human counterparts from what we’ve seen. They’re just wrecked ships raised up and used primarily for logistics purposes such as “troop” transport. Reasonably, if they were all that Zhaitan had, Lion’s Arch could arguably meet them on more or less even terms.

The Bone Ships, however, are an entirely different animal. First, they can submerge and rise up anywhere without warning. If you did the Cursed Shore naval storyline in the PS, they do it with complete surprise and not even the Asuran tech installed on your vessel can detect them. Big advantage, both tactically and strategically. Tactically, because they can take you by surprise and strategically because you will never know where they are.

The Bone Ships can also move independently of wind. The advantage of any ship that moves under power as compared to under sail cannot be overstated. Once again, superior both tactically and strategically.

Finally, the “fish throwing claw” weapons on the Bone Ships seem to be able to fire in any direction. In the same vein as the previous issue, this is a massive tactical advantage. A Bone Ship could literally run circles around a human vessel, bombarding it even as the humans tried to bring their guns to bear.

An also less-than-insignificant fact is that if you lose a ship, Zhaitan raises it and adds it to his own fleet. Even worse, though, is that the captain and crew become his minions, and as we all know Zhaitan knows everything his minions ever knew, he now knows everything that captain knew about the size, deployment, and missions of your whole fleet.

Asking the Lion’s Arch fleet to take the fight to Zhaitan with what they’re presented to have would be like asking Francis Drake to defeat the Spanish Armada if the Spanish had 1880s steam frigates, that could incidentally turn into submarines. And if the Spanish could then probe his dead body for intelligence if he failed.

draxynnic.3719:

Now, I say ‘conventional’, because between the asura and charr one could probably make a battleship (and yes, I think it would be at the stage where ‘battleship’ is more accurate than ‘ship of the line’) that’s perfectly capable of fighting underwater foes.

Well, the Charr have completed a prototype submarine. Does that count?

Magic is not an strategic advantage if it is slower than conventional sailing. Steampower ships was a tactical advantage, not an strategic one, at first, because they required constant supply of coal. Most ships used sails and engines according to the situation. The problem is that we don’t know how good is this form of magic.

The second issue is detection and coordination. Most Risen are relatively simple-minded. If you follow the Order of Whisper’s plan during the latter part of the storyline, you can even lure and capture a significant part of Zhaitan’s fleet by just sabotaging one of the beacon torch lighthouse that Zhaitan uses to guide its ships. Even after capturing it and using these ships to bombard the positions of Risen, Zhaitan doesn’t react until one of the Eyes appears. This reveal a significant weakness in the ability of Zhaitan to control its forces. More importantly, it proves that Zhaitans minions don’t work by a hivemind, but through agents like the Eyes, Champions and other special creatures.

It is possible that Zhaitan just hasn’t bothered in stopping sea commerce between Rata Sum and Lion’s Arch too much. Zhaitan has tried to destroy Claw Island and conquer Lion’s Arch on multiple occasions. Perhaps, Zhaitan is competing or even fighting with Bubbles and Palawa Joko at the same time, but there’s no way to prove it. Of course, Zhaitan could be very well be the weakest of the dragons. Regardless of the case, and despite all the dangers posed by the Risen, sea trade is still good enough to justify a merchant fleet and the presence of asura gates.

Rata Sum looks like to be de facto city-state surrounded by laboratories. As an advanced society, the asura should have large needs for food (their smaller stature could diminish these needs). Yet, I don’t remember farms or anything in the the entire Metrica Province. Jungles is the most difficult territory to adapt for human economic activity. The soil of the jungle is poor, too low in nutrients and too acid for most kind of serious agriculture. The only way to exploit the jungles is through the use of artificial fertilizers or literally terraforming. Unless the Asura (as a former subterranean race) have a different nutritional needs, they would need to import food from outside their territory. The most fertile region in Tyria and biggest producer of agricultural goods is probably the Kingdom of Kryta. Only the Charr lands ruled by the Blood Legion could compete, and these lands probably have much shorter seasons.

PD: By the way, is it me or the Seraph don’t use riflemen? The Ministry of Purity use them, human militias use them, even the bandits use them (they even have canons) yet the Seraph don’t. In one of the books, the Seraph have rifleman, but not ingame. Is it to show that humans are conservatives, a case of mismanagement, to help people who don’t like guns find a comfortable home or just because there was enough with two kinds of Seraph?

Ixal.7924:

draxynnic.3719:

Now, I say ‘conventional’, because between the asura and charr one could probably make a battleship (and yes, I think it would be at the stage where ‘battleship’ is more accurate than ‘ship of the line’) that’s perfectly capable of fighting underwater foes.

Well, the Charr have completed a prototype submarine. Does that count?

I doubt they can stay for long without having invented electrical engines (unless the Pact have invented it). Traditional steampower doesn’t work underwater (you need a nuclear reactor). The Charr don’t even has access to the sea as far as we know. It is possible that Fort Trinity used to be one of their ports before Kralkatorrik destroyed the only route with the Dragonbrand.

However, naval mine technology seems to exist (evidenced by pirates using them). Maybe the main routes of trade are protected by a ring of naval mines that prevents Zhaitan’s fleets from coming close.

Ixal: They would could if ‘prototype’ became ‘production model deployed in significant numbers’. One prototype does not make a fleet.

Legion: We have been told that Rata Sum does have (golem-manned) farms, although we don’t see them ingame – presumably, they’re in more secure, unexplorable-to-PCs areas. I suspect that in normal economic conditions they do trade for food with Kryta, though – but with centaurs trampling all over the fields, Kryta’s ability to supply that requirement has probably been curtailed. (It’s one thing that makes the ‘defend Divinity’s Reach alone’ attitude of some ministers a little short-sighted – a city the size of DR, especially with refugees added, needs farmland or it will eventually starve.)

When it comes to riflemen – were there even riflemen in the Seraph in the books? I recall there being human riflemen, but in the Ebon Vanguard instead. So it could be that the Seraph are a little more hidebound in that respect – or, like the English except even more so, they consider good archers to be better than handgunners for the job they’re doing. The simplest answer, though, might be just that ArenaNet feels that a force that is normally allied to the players doesn’t need to have the range that an enemy group has (similar to how in GW1 many friendly armies are limited to about three professions while most organised enemy armies have the full range of professions).

draxynnic.3719:

Ixal: They would could if ‘prototype’ became ‘production model deployed in significant numbers’. One prototype does not make a fleet.

If not the Charr someone has. The Strait of Devastation is full of submarines.