Guild Wars 2

One of the key revelations (or Taimi’s new theories) about the Elder Dragons was that one dragon’s energy can be counteracted by another’s. She suggests the magic of the Fire Dragon, Primordus, could be negated by that of the Ice dragon, Jormag, and vice versa. Logical enough I thought.

I pictured Taimi figuring out how to imbue a weapon with the energy of Primordus, and the player-character using this to break Jormag’s tooth. I was looking forward to giving that a go.

Instead, uninterested in Taimi’s research, Braham uses a magic scroll to empower his mother’s bow. The only information we have on the scroll is that it is “similar to the scroll Aesgir used in his great victory”, when he was able to obtain a tooth from Jormag (thus proving that the Elder Dragon can be harmed).

But what is this scroll? The only info I can find on the scroll used by Aesgir was that it was a “powerful jotun scroll” which is now lost. What does it have to do with fire? What does it have to do with Primordus’ energy?

I though the crack Braham’s arrow made in the tooth was a bit disappointing. Much better to give it a thwack with a Primordus-enchanted warhammer and see it shatter into a million pieces…

Given the heavy presence on the spirit of fire, I figured that the scroll effectively made the weapon enchanted akin to the braziers – imbued with sacred fire left by the spirit of fire when it left Tyria.

I doubt it has much – if anything – to do with Primordus. After all, what Taimi is theorizing is more that energy from the sphere of fire would be Jormag’s counter.

Of course, the idea that every Elder Dragon can counter another goes against HoT’s statement that “Every Elder Dragon has a specific weakness unique to them” in that its not so unique and Mordremoth’s was “killing the mind” since his power was that killing his physical body was pointless so long as any of his corruption existed due to his sphere of mind. So I’m suspecting (read: hopeful but not expecting) Taimi’s theory will be proven false, and the purpose of trying to prove it is just a plot convenience to get us into the north to meet up with Braham and show off that, yes, Jormag’s consumed some of that magic too but not as much due to proximity.

I also expect that Taimi’s theory will be flawed because otherwise it’d just be Anet catering to popular fan theories and wants (no different than killing Trahearne was).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Given the heavy presence on the spirit of fire, I figured that the scroll effectively made the weapon enchanted akin to the braziers – imbued with sacred fire left by the spirit of fire when it left Tyria.

I doubt it has much – if anything – to do with Primordus. After all, what Taimi is theorizing is more that energy from the sphere of fire would be Jormag’s counter.

Of course, the idea that every Elder Dragon can counter another goes against HoT’s statement that “Every Elder Dragon has a specific weakness unique to them” in that its not so unique and Mordremoth’s was “killing the mind” since his power was that killing his physical body was pointless so long as any of his corruption existed due to his sphere of mind. So I’m suspecting (read: hopeful but not expecting) Taimi’s theory will be proven false, and the purpose of trying to prove it is just a plot convenience to get us into the north to meet up with Braham and show off that, yes, Jormag’s consumed some of that magic too but not as much due to proximity.

I also expect that Taimi’s theory will be flawed because otherwise it’d just be Anet catering to popular fan theories and wants (no different than killing Trahearne was).

A counter is not necessarily a weakness. Take fire and ice in the Snowblind Fractal.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Snowblind_Fractal
There appears to be an additive inverse relationship ie:
fire= -ice

We see countless examples of size dependent cancellations.

• One bonfire can remove hypothermia and apply warmth faster than the cold
• Six bonfires can melt an ice wall.
• Five bonfires can only negate the shield on the Elemental Source, not harm it.
• One Elemental Source can extinguish five bonfire in a blast.

Fire is not Jormag’s weakness. You would need the full cooperation of Primordius or Balthazar to cancel out that much ice.

To kill Mordremoth/Zhaitan we used specific tech/abilities, and some anatomy lessons.

Therefore Jormag has a specific weakness that the pact can exploit without requiring an elder dragon size fireball.

With the recent explanation of the Spirit of Fire, I think it’s clear that “fire magic” is a natural thing, unassociated to any being; like any other Spirit of the Wild, the Spirit of Fire spawned as a consequence of a natural thing, possibly generated by the Mists themselves as an archetype of that thing.
So, every entity can make use of fire magic: humans, charr, Kodan, the Spirit of Fire and even Primordus. So, it’s referred to as “Primordus’s energy” because the Dragon makes mainly use of it and not because it naturally generates from it; in addition its actual body was changed when imbued with immense amount of fire magic, rendering it exposed to a magical weakness, which for now I’d refer to as ice magic, or the magic which Jormag coincidentally uses.

We don’t really have any more knowledge about the scroll as of now I think, but given that it was made by the Jotun (supposedly), and that they once were a race of powerful spellcasters, this ancient magic was certainly understood better than today.

I think that just an arrow was struck by Braham to show the potentialities, but fire magic wouldn’t kill Jormag per se, it will just weaken it, exposing it to heavier damage, just exactly what happened with the Ice Beast when Braham cracked its Crystalline Armor and we were able to damage it for good.

Remember in Edge of Destiny when Destiny’s Edge went up against the Destroyer of Life and its weakness was the arrow burning with primordial fire? It originated from the Destroyer of Life itself, so I’m extrapolating that it essentially came from Primordus (Ancient Magic right there).
So, my theory is that the scroll Braham used basically allowed to recreate Primordial Fire (it destroyed a champion of Primordus, so it can easily break through Jormag’s defense)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroyer_of_Life

In addition to what I said earlier regarding Braham just “scratching” Jormag’s tooth with a single arrow: it definitely felt anticlimatic, but I think that completely obliterating the tooth would’ve been a disrespectful action in regards to Asgeir’s legend, while also destroying the only trophy of such a powerful foe. Also, the tooth had become a symbol of hope for the norn culture (at least for those living in and/or around Hoelbrak), which was recently transformed by Braham’s actions into a symbol of retaliation and overcoming.
But it still was a brave and unreasoning move for Braham to take, since he is the only one with an infused weapon after all (for now).

Djahlat.9610

So, my theory is that the scroll Braham used basically allowed to recreate Primordial Fire (it destroyed a champion of Primordus, so it can easily break through Jormag’s defense)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroyer_of_Life

Just to better understand your view: do you also view primordial fire as an indipendent thing or do you intend that it must be associated to Primordus, inherently and necessarily coming from it?

Also, interesting knowledge about the Destroyer of Life, I missed that; I guess it comes from the books?

On a totally unrelated note, in that same wiki page, Primordus is referred to as a wyrm: imagining it as a vile fiery serpent slithering through Tyria’s depths is very appealing.

I don’t think it’s suggesting that all elder dragons are countered by another elder dragon. (Otherwise we’re going to be pretty stuck when we get to whoever Mordremoth and Zhaitan countered…except we already managed to defeat them without turning another dragon against them.)

Instead I think this is specific to Primordius and Jormag, because their magic is mainly focused on heat and cold specifically and we already know those cancel each other out.

And as other people have said I also don’t think it’s only Primordius’ fire magic that can counter Jormag – any fire magic would do. But when we’ve got two dragons active at once and our goal is to defeat both with minimal casualties from our ‘side’ the logical thing to do is to try and get them to fight each other and stay well out of the way.

That’s the conflict between Taimi’s method and Brahams – they’ve both got broadly the same idea as far as using magic goes, it’s just the vehicle for it that’s different.

This is a good spot:

Djahlat.9610:

Remember in Edge of Destiny when Destiny’s Edge went up against the Destroyer of Life and its weakness was the arrow burning with primordial fire? It originated from the Destroyer of Life itself, so I’m extrapolating that it essentially came from Primordus (Ancient Magic right there).

And that was no slight scratch: “A holocaust erupted from every joint of the beast… Then came a deafening crack. The rocky figure of the Destroyer of Life blasted apart”.

Wow. Do we really need Taimi’s proof that this is exactly what we need to combat Jormag??

But wait… this is an example of an Elder Dragon’s energy destroying one of it’s own  champions, not that of an opposing rival dragon! (which is the point Taimi is suggesting).

And, as yet, there is nothing to say the scroll has anything to do with “primordial” fire as such. I hope Anet doesn’t drop this, and gives us a proper insight into the origin and power of the scroll. “Similar to the scroll Aesgir used…” is not enough info mateys!

Sock.2785:

Djahlat.9610

So, my theory is that the scroll Braham used basically allowed to recreate Primordial Fire (it destroyed a champion of Primordus, so it can easily break through Jormag’s defense)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroyer_of_Life

Just to better understand your view: do you also view primordial fire as an indipendent thing or do you intend that it must be associated to Primordus, inherently and necessarily coming from it?

Ha, thanks, I was actually surprised that I was the first to bring it up, the similarity was so striking to me.
Well it’s really not explained what Primordial Fire is except that the Destroyer of Life was made of it (“primordial fire burned primordial fire”) , so to answer your question : I don’t know , but I wouldn’t be surprised if the scroll that Braham retrieved allowed him to recreate or emulate this primordial fire (in the same manner the PC was able to emulate Divine Fire)

@cocodragon, @Djahlat
I’d like if you’d bear with me in trying to analyze what happened with the Destroyer of Life (basing just on the wiki page and on that quote from the book that you wrote):

• “it was amorphous”
• “its body just solidified from the lava sea where it lived”

This particular champion of Primordus literally was an amorphous entity creeping through lava, and it would just assume a form when coming out of the lava sea.

• “Once woken, it could never be quenched”

This would mean that once out of the sea of lava it would encase itself in rocks to prevent the lava core from cooling down, or rather: it would encase a definite amount of lava with rocks, keeping the heat inside, surviving this way out of the lava sea.

• “It was this that made Eir realise its weakness”

It seems evident that this particular champion’s weakness was the need of attaching itself to actual lava in order to exist. When Eir realised that by destroying the outer shell (in some way) the lava inside would disperse, she stroke one of those white-hot arrows, burning with primordial fire, right through the outer rocky shell and into the core: the heat from the arrow, added to that of the lava core, was too much for the rocky shell to withstand, resulting in its explosion and in the dispersion of lava and its subsequent cooling down. Left with nothing to attach to, the amorphous entity was finally quenched.

So it definitely worked with this particular champion of Primordus, but it wouldn’t work with Primordus itself, given that it possesses the biggest share of fire magic (or primordial fire) as of now, hence why we need an opposing magical aspect that would actually weaken it.

In conclusion, primordial fire was just a circumstantial weakness with the Destroyer of Life, if the dragon champion would have run back into the sea of lava those arrows would have been of no use.