Guild Wars 2

I have seen several things that point to Zhaitan as the first to actually awaken.

-Before the Destroyers were active, we had the Flameseeker Prophecies and Vizier Khilbron (who as we know, was the Lich and commanded ‘Orrian’ undead – IE he was a dragon champion?). Titans and Destroyers are very similar in nature; perhaps they are the same and the Vizier was hastening the awakening of Primordus at the behest of his master (Zhaitan?).

-The sinking of Orr was, according to the cutscene for a certain GW2 dungeon, the event that awoke Zhaitan. As we know the sinking of Orr occurred well before Primordus stirred.

-Orrian undead have been in Kryta since well before the start of the Flameseeker Prophecies.

No, Zhaitan only used his powers to CONTROL the undead of Orr, he didn’t raise all of them. Besides, when he woke he brought Arah up from the Ocean and flooded Lion’s Arch. And that was in 1219 AE, we are in 1325 AE ingame.

And Titans and Destroyers are really different things, they are not connected to Primordus, they are the minions of Abaddon. They take the guise of “Molten Rock” Monsters in the Ring of Fire or Icy monsters in the Shiverpeaks. They only use the rock that is avaible to them, they are NOT connected to Primordus.

And we will get more info on Zhaitan awakening in the book Sea of Sorrows.

-The Vizier’s power came from Abbadon, and the forgotten scrolls below Arah.

-The Titans are made from souls in the foundry of Failed Creations in the Domain of Anguish, they are entirely unrelated to Destroyers.

-The Dragons fight against each-other, Zhaitan would not help further the speed of which one of his enemies awakens.

-It was the RISING of Orr that heralded his return, not the sinking.

-the Flameseekers prophocies started long before Vizier Khlilbron blew up Orr, it had started ages ago.

Nerdlife.2965:

And Titans and Destroyers are really different things, they are not connected to Primordus, they are the minions of Abaddon.

I agree with you except on that point, Destroyers are minions of the Great Destroyer, who is/was a champion of Primordus.

Phrixscreoth.6895:

Nerdlife.2965:

And Titans and Destroyers are really different things, they are not connected to Primordus, they are the minions of Abaddon.

I agree with you except on that point, Destroyers are minions of the Great Destroyer, who is/was a champion of Primordus.

I think you should re-read what he said again, he said the Titans are minions of Abbadon, not the destroyers.

Sajuuk Khar.1509:

Phrixscreoth.6895:

Nerdlife.2965:

And Titans and Destroyers are really different things, they are not connected to Primordus, they are the minions of Abaddon.

I agree with you except on that point, Destroyers are minions of the Great Destroyer, who is/was a champion of Primordus.

I think you should re-read what he said again, he said the Titans are minions of Abbadon, not the destroyers.

Alright, I’ll rephrase: I don’t remember the origins of the Titans, but Destroyers…

Sajuuk Khar.1509:

-The Dragons fight against each-other, Zhaitan would not help further the speed of which one of his enemies awakens.

Just some clarification: While the dragon minions -and possibly the .dragons themselves- will fight amongst each other if given the opportunity, I would not go so far as to say they are enemies. They don’t actively seek each other out, and they may not even be aware of each others existence

The Dragons are like animals, animals who believe the entire world belongs to them, they are enemies based on the fact that they will eventually come into contact with each other, and fight over the world until they grow tired and have to go back to sleep.

they are enemies in an animalistic sense, maybe not in a human sense, but still enemies.

I might go off on a tangent here. Lack of sleep.

Titans were (retcon) created by Abaddon and used during his “lets be a jerk” phase for which the other gods banished him and locked him away in the domain of anguish (always handy to have a domain of anguish lying around!). At this point terrestrial titans were locked away behind the door of Komalie.

At least I think that’s the nightfall-retcon approved version of events regarding the door of Komalie. The fire islands was/is literally a Titan prison.

Now, presumably the door of Komalie was created by ancient Orrians (GW2 lore here) as they has some direct contact with the gods, hence the reason the Sceptre of Orr was the key that unlocked it.

Then the Mursaat got wind of that and for whatever reason the Mursaat/Seers(AKA Largos) do things the Mursaat decided in Saul D’allesio’s(sp?) time that the titans would be a handy dandy weapon to have in order to… Well I’ll guess they wanted to dominate Tyria, but honestly their motives are never made clear. Maybe they’ll be retconned to wanting the titans as a weapon against the Elder Dragons since the lore is so dragon happy all of a sudden.

So, anyway, at this point the Vizier, who, FYI, was NOT a servant of abaddon at the time of the prophecies plotline (like Shiro he only became a servant of Abaddon after being defeated by my awesome ranger and his merry band and being banished to the realm of torment) Decides he’d like to have his own personal army of titans undead with which to… well from the cinematic dialoague, basically destroy everything for no reason/because he’s akitten off winged zombie.

Mind you, this guy stopped being the Vizier of Orr the moment Orr exploded (which was a catastrophic retcon-WMD misfire in an effort to stop the Charr from taking Orr)

So, that entire time, being a Lich (which is basically a zombie who knows necromancy) he spent all that time looking for the scepter with his undead army in Kryta so he could unlock the door.

Then stuff got complicated because the Mursaat were on the scene with their white mantle flunkies, and Mursaat are way better in a fight than an army of crusty old zombies.

Thus, the Lich enlists our Ascalonian heroes (including my awesome ranger) to do the dirty work for him, stringing them along like they’re the chosen ones so he can swoop in and claim his new army after they clean up the Mursaat for him.

Of course, my ranger was such an awesome guy that he single handedly closed all the titan portals to all the major cities, beat up zombie Rurik, and killed the Lich three times on the bloodstone while wrestling two bears, brewing coffee, and high fiving a Seer.

And that’s why people live in kryta now in stead of being dead, and also where titans come from.

PopeUrban.2578:

snip

Actually
-Abbadon only made the titans after he was imprisoned, Abbadon made the Margonites before he went all evil though.

-Khilbron was always a worshiper of Abbadon, there was even two quests in Nightfall that dealt with how Abbadon turned Khilbron before he blew up Orr, and Khilbron had a big mural of Abbadon in his room that you can find in Orr in GW2.

-The Scepter of Orr was not needed to open the Door of Komalie, it was needed to control the Titans. The Door of Komalie was made by the Mursaat, and powered by the soul batteries.

-The Largos are not the seers.

-The Mursaat wanted to keep the titans contained because they knew of Glint’s Flameseeker prophecies, and knew that the Titans were the only things that could kill them off.

Hold on hold on, Mursaat/seers (AKA Largos)? what? The Larogs might act or look similar, but the largos don’t float, are from the deep oceans, aren’t very magical from what i’ve seen, and don’t seems to have any relations to the Mursaat or Seers. sorry off topic but i had to.

Thanks Sajuuk. I may have missed those nightfall quests.

and Yata, I’m saying that it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck so I’m calling it a duck. That massive degree of similarity can’t be a coincidence by the art team we’re talking about. Same wingies, same bizarre markings, same skin tone, we never actually met a “female” seer, and the dimensions on those water wingies are perfectly sized to be wrapped around the body and latched with their tiny hands in the same manner as the Seers we’ve met.

For all we know seer males do the mysticism and seer females do all the fighting and assassinating.

Also, the facemask is suspicious for a native underwater species, and the character in question is… lets say not trustworthy.

but I digress, that’s a whole other topic for another thread.

The Seers are genderless, it was confirmed by Anet ages ago.

the Largos very clearly have genders.

PopeUrban.2578:

Thanks Sajuuk. I may have missed those nightfall quests.

and Yata, I’m saying that it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck so I’m calling it a duck. That massive degree of similarity can’t be a coincidence by the art team we’re talking about. Same wingies, same bizarre markings, same skin tone, we never actually met a “female” seer, and the dimensions on those water wingies are perfectly sized to be wrapped around the body and latched with their tiny hands in the same manner as the Seers we’ve met.

For all we know seer males do the mysticism and seer females do all the fighting and assassinating.

Also, the facemask is suspicious for a native underwater species, and the character in question is… lets say not trustworthy.

but I digress, that’s a whole other topic for another thread.

Seers have four arms, are black, psychic, land based, float and have long faces.

Largos have two arms and two wings, are blue, aquatic assassins, walk, faces are hidden behind masks.

It is plausible that Seers and largos are related in some way, but many things are plausible. The Elder Dragons originating as regular dragons who each ate lots of certain types of magic is plausible, but so would be originating as manifestations of distinct magical energies that took the physical form of dragons.

Ultimately, none of that means anything, unless you want to roleplay a character who believes such an idea has merit and sets out to find evidence. That’s the only use I can see for such speculation. If it turns out to be canon, nothing is gained by figuring it out ahead of time. If it’s disproved, it’s just as useless only more obviously so.

I think some people speculate wildly because they hope ArenaNet will be blown away and use their idea. But thinking that doesn’t make it true or useful until such time as someone steps forward and admits to it.

Yata.8932:

Sajuuk Khar.1509:

-The Dragons fight against each-other, Zhaitan would not help further the speed of which one of his enemies awakens.

Just some clarification: While the dragon minions -and possibly the .dragons themselves- will fight amongst each other if given the opportunity, I would not go so far as to say they are enemies. They don’t actively seek each other out, and they may not even be aware of each others existence

Actually they are considered enemies and they are aware of each other’s exisctence. They treat other dragon’s minions as any other enemy. They don’t seek each other out because they are other enemies blocking them from each other.

Where is this stated Killul? I’m not attacking I’m curious as i haven’t seen or heard this anywhere before.

Elunarie.9283:

I have seen several things that point to Zhaitan as the first to actually awaken.

-Before the Destroyers were active, we had the Flameseeker Prophecies and Vizier Khilbron (who as we know, was the Lich and commanded ‘Orrian’ undead – IE he was a dragon champion?). Titans and Destroyers are very similar in nature; perhaps they are the same and the Vizier was hastening the awakening of Primordus at the behest of his master (Zhaitan?).

-The sinking of Orr was, according to the cutscene for a certain GW2 dungeon, the event that awoke Zhaitan. As we know the sinking of Orr occurred well before Primordus stirred.

-Orrian undead have been in Kryta since well before the start of the Flameseeker Prophecies.

1) Titans are 100% unrelated to Elder Dragons. They are created from tormented souls – you can go to their present home during GW1 in Nightfall: the Foundry of Failed Creations.

2) Jeff Grubb stated in an interview with GuildMag that the Cataclysm had no affect on Zhaitan. If you’re talking about the Arah dungeon cutscene, there was no mention of the Cataclysm waking Zhaitan (that I recall at least). It talked about the history of Arah and Orr. Also, if Zhaitan woke up during the Cataclysm (1071 AE), why did he wake up again and rise to the surface 100 years later?

3) Nothing links the Prophecies undead to Zhaitan’s risen. The only real argument there is would be Khilbron’s appearance. However, there’s indication he was a corrupt necromancer ever since Zoran’s reign (that, or Orr had a series of corrupt necromancer viziers) – see the Shards of Orr dungeon in Eye of the North.

Sajuuk Khar.1509:

PopeUrban.2578:

snip

Actually
-Abbadon only made the titans after he was imprisoned, Abbadon made the Margonites before he went all evil though.

[…]

-[…]The Door of Komalie was made by the Mursaat, and powered by the soul batteries.

[…]

-The Mursaat wanted to keep the titans contained because they knew of Glint’s Flameseeker prophecies, and knew that the Titans were the only things that could kill them off.

Corrections:
- The Titans are as old as the forgotten. Though they’re tied to Dhuum, not Abaddon (in Nightfall, they’re controlled/commanded by/created by The Fury, a general of Dhuum in alliance with Abaddon and later Mallyx).

-We don’t know the origins of the Door of Komalie, however the seal around it was mursaat made. The Door of Komalie itself is the portal that looks like a tear in the fabric of reality.

-The players technically killed most mursaat off (read The Flameseeker Prophecies – the journal of the PC in GW1 – the titans via Khilbron’s orders just “finished the job” (while leaving at least 8 alive)).

PopeUrban.2578:

I’m saying that it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck so I’m calling it a duck. That massive degree of similarity can’t be a coincidence by the art team we’re talking about. Same wingies, same bizarre markings, same skin tone, we never actually met a “female” seer, and the dimensions on those water wingies are perfectly sized to be wrapped around the body and latched with their tiny hands in the same manner as the Seers we’ve met.

For all we know seer males do the mysticism and seer females do all the fighting and assassinating.

Also, the facemask is suspicious for a native underwater species, and the character in question is… lets say not trustworthy.

Seers lack the wing design (they have some “fin” like stuff, but it’s nothing even close to similar). Largos eyes don’t glow like seer eyes (male largos’ eyes glowing is caused by the mask, given that female eyes don’t glow). Seers are, as said already, genderless while largos are not. Voices sound completely different – as if largos have a breathing apparatus (probably for breathing air given their aquatic nature). Seers have four arms and are a black/dark gray skin tone, whereas largos have 2 arms and are a light blue skin tone (the skin texture is also vastly different from seers). Male largos fight just as much as female largos.

And what do you mean by “bizzare thingies”? I see nothing similar between them other than the male largos’ glowing blue eyes.

Also, the seer sounds more feminine than masculine. Though, again, they’re genderless.

And let’s not forget the most important facts:
1) Seers were mostly wiped out.

2) Largos are fighting Elder Dragons too, current day. In the past, seers fought them and won with other races. If the seer and largos were the same race, they’d share that knowledge.

At most, they’re cousin species. But that’s still stretching it, imo.

Yata.8932:

Where is this stated Killul? I’m not attacking I’m curious as i haven’t seen or heard this anywhere before.

It was a video interview with Jeff and Ree. Don’t have the link on me sadly.