Guild Wars 2

Why would you conclude that, Gurt? I mean, Krytans in GW1 didn’t look significantly different from Ascalonians.

Gurt.9368:

Grakor.3450:

Because Ascalon and Kryta are traditionally enemies, not allies. You are again presuming that humanity was in some way unified, when that simply wasn’t the case before. Why would Kryta care about Ascalon at all when Ascalon was never theirs to begin with?

Because judging by the racial appearance of the people, I’d estimate that about 75% to 90% of modern day Krytans are of Ascalonian descent.

Im going to go with model limitation there. Ive seen NPCs in Divinity’s Reach talk about their Canthan heritage and they looked Ascalonian. The reality is that for the bulk of Krytans, the fall of Ascalon and the Searing happened a very, very long time ago. 200 years is a long time for people. Its also a battle clearly long since lost.

True most humans dont like or trust charr much. Thats why in Divinity’s Reach youll often see people bad mouth the charr. Its the same the other way. There is alot of establish racial hatred and bias. But for the bulk of humanity it isnt worth dying for at this point.

Strang.8170:

Gurt.9368:

Grakor.3450:

Because Ascalon and Kryta are traditionally enemies, not allies. You are again presuming that humanity was in some way unified, when that simply wasn’t the case before. Why would Kryta care about Ascalon at all when Ascalon was never theirs to begin with?

Because judging by the racial appearance of the people, I’d estimate that about 75% to 90% of modern day Krytans are of Ascalonian descent.

They look like it, so it must be like that.

Let´s see:
Situation in GW1 was that human nations had prettymuch been fighting eachother for a goodwhile, or more precisely guild had been. There was no love spared between Kryta and Ascalon.
Ascalonians who came to Kryta were refugees and there wasn´t too many of them, deducing from the size of the settlement they had, and from how it exapanded.
First generation after their arrival there propably wasn´t too much of realtionships between Krytans and Ascalonians, just look at any of the modern conflicts and the refugees they leave or former adversaries (Usa vs indians?)
Kryta at the time Ascalonians arrived was faring well, had strong population and despite civilwar that soon erupted still remained on better grounds than Ascalon.
Refugees after the initial wave that Rurik lead would´ve propably been sacrce since the way was dangerous, and big part of the population willing to leave had already done so.

So how exactly did that smallish group of refugees take over a nation?

Beats me, but from the way things appear they somehow did.

Gulbrandr.9047:

Why would you conclude that, Gurt? I mean, Krytans in GW1 didn’t look significantly different from Ascalonians.

Except they kind of did. Ascalonians are clearly meant to be based on Europeans both in natural complexions and architecture while Krytans were obviously based on Incas.

Lutinz.6915:

Gurt.9368:

Grakor.3450:

Because Ascalon and Kryta are traditionally enemies, not allies. You are again presuming that humanity was in some way unified, when that simply wasn’t the case before. Why would Kryta care about Ascalon at all when Ascalon was never theirs to begin with?

Because judging by the racial appearance of the people, I’d estimate that about 75% to 90% of modern day Krytans are of Ascalonian descent.

Im going to go with model limitation there. Ive seen NPCs in Divinity’s Reach talk about their Canthan heritage and they looked Ascalonian. The reality is that for the bulk of Krytans, the fall of Ascalon and the Searing happened a very, very long time ago. 200 years is a long time for people. Its also a battle clearly long since lost.

True most humans dont like or trust charr much. Thats why in Divinity’s Reach youll often see people bad mouth the charr. Its the same the other way. There is alot of establish racial hatred and bias. But for the bulk of humanity it isnt worth dying for at this point.

It wouldn’t have been too hard to select a different, darker skin tone if Anet wanted Kryta to be home to more Krytans. The most likely scenario is that Anet wanted Kryta to fit the typical fantasy Europe trope and made it fit, skin color and all. Even so, until a dev says otherwise, what is depicted in the game is the way it is intended, and the game depicts that the majority population of Kryta is Ascalonian descent.

They have said that Kryta is now a melting pot of all the nations, and humanity is in GW2 mostly united under one banner (which certainly wasn’t the case in GW1).

The way I see it, over 200 years have passed and Ascalon is for the most part dead and buried. These feelings GW1 players have about the Charr are completely out of character and really have no place here.

I suspected that there would be a few of separatists among the migrating GW1 players. I mean, some of the GW1 players strongly identified with their Ascalonian characters. Possibly because of pre-searing. Leveling was slow in GW: Prophecies and so if you didn’t leave pre-searing until you had done everything you possibly could. You spent a lot of time in Ascalon and since you could never go back once the searing took place… I think a lot of players shared the sense of loss that the Ascalonian NPCs like Gwen felt.

But you know, things have changed in the last 200 years and the Charr are neither as insular or “apart” as they were in GW1. The three orders of Tyria especially have been bringing Charr and humans together, as have the Lion Guard and Lion’s Arch in-general. Plus with the truce in-place, we are likely to hear more of the type of conversion we hear between Leyah and Jordyn,

Leyah (Charr): Do you ever wonder why our nations used to fight?

Jordyn (Human): I don’t really care. All I know is that your my best friend.

Leyah: You are mine too. Just don’t tell my parents, they’ll kill us!

Jordyn: I know. Grown-up act so dumb sometimes.

While Krytans may have been physically modeled on Incas, I think the in-game lore states that Kryta was originally an Elonian colony, so logically they should have looked more like Istani or Kournans (who were based on various types of Africans).

The entire charr intro is nothing but a lie. “With machines of war we killed our gods”. Don’t make me laugh. If anybody killed their last pantheon of gods, i.e. Titans, it was me, at level 20, being my awesome human self.

The legion is mother, the legion is father, pah, the legion is your sister telling you she is your real mom at your eight birthday.

I was always under the impression krytans were a bit more Mediterranean in their looks. In GW1 they had a good mix south-European to north-African skin colors. Jennah retains some of those influences, while the average Krytan has gotten a fair white-wash. Even the types of trees which are growing in Kryta these days point to a more colder climate than 250 years ago during GW1.

FourthVariety.5463:

The entire charr intro is nothing but a lie. “With machines of war we killed our gods”. Don’t make me laugh. If anybody killed their last pantheon of gods, i.e. Titans, it was me, at level 20, being my awesome human self.

I don’t think Anet meant that literately.

Most of you are wrong when it comes to charr and you are forgetting (or haven’t played GW1 EotN) who are the charr of the today (gw2). What changed after you met Pyre and ended the campaign.

It’s a bit silly that the charr are willing to undergo a huge cultural and behavioural shift in the space of 250 years and yet humanity is expected to roll over and forget about most of their problems, though.

Gurt.9368:

In AC Adelbern mistakes Rytlock, a living charr, for his own son; at the very least this would imply that Adelbern has some sense of self and can distinguish that not all beings are either charr or traitors. If Solothin had been given to a human to take the role of the prince maybe the curse could have been lifted, undone by the same person who cast it. It certainly would have made for more interesting writing in my opinion.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. He mistakes a living entity wielding Sohothin and mistakes him for Rurik showing that he does not who is around him really which mean he cannot distinguish. He already knows that his son is not coming home but in death still thinks he will. The official lore has rumored that a descendant of Doric (Queen Jennah) will quell the ghosts if wielding Sohothin, nothing else.

Charr has owned ascalonian lands a long time before humans even appeard in Tyria and have lived there longer than humans. They have a deeper connection to the land and was forced away.

And because they are a war race they had to take it back, victory at any cost. Take back the land that is their own, and while their at it, destroy the kittens that took it from them. King Adelbern was a grumpy old man that rather saw his people die as ghost rather then let Ascalon be a charr territory, too much pride.

So Ascalon turned to a ghost city, and when Charr pushed towards orr someone sank the whole city. So there are to events caused by humans that struck humans the hardest. And ofcourse would todays humans in krytan not care about ascalon, such a mixure of so many descents and so small in numbers. They only want to survive were they are. And most of the “true” ascalonian humans are in Ebonhawk.

Turial.1293:

Gurt.9368:

In AC Adelbern mistakes Rytlock, a living charr, for his own son; at the very least this would imply that Adelbern has some sense of self and can distinguish that not all beings are either charr or traitors. If Solothin had been given to a human to take the role of the prince maybe the curse could have been lifted, undone by the same person who cast it. It certainly would have made for more interesting writing in my opinion.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. He mistakes a living entity wielding Sohothin and mistakes him for Rurik showing that he does not who is around him really which mean he cannot distinguish. He already knows that his son is not coming home but in death still thinks he will. The official lore has rumored that a descendant of Doric (Queen Jennah) will quell the ghosts if wielding Sohothin, nothing else.

So… Logan and Jennah are gonna have a baby to whom Rytlock will pass on his sword? Makes sense to me!

Gurt.9368:

But everything we know and have seen imply that’s wrong. In GW1 the war was brought to the humans by the charr. The humans had built a a few cities and a gigantic wall to protect the majority of the countryside from raids. The Great Northern Wall wouldn’t have been constructed had the humans been actively trying to wipe out all the charr, it would have been too large an investment both in cost and construction time. The Wall itself was not built until 898 AE, and it’s position is a good indicator of what the humans at that time felt was necessary to protect from the charr. We’ve seen in GW:EN how much land the charr occupy north of the wall, if the charr control everything from the wall north, the Kingdom of Ascalon seems insignificant (being only a quarter of the size). If everything touched by the searing was firmly human controlled (which cannot be the case due to the existence of the Wall) then the charr lands are about the same size as the human lands, if they don’t spread any further east than shown on the map (not likely).

Actually, human lands before the Searing and the invasion that preceded it actually stretched further north than the region touched by the Searing. That gladiatorial pit that Gwen is forced into during the BMP story? Used to be a human noble’s estate.

The Wall basically seemed to be strategically the place to fall back to if everything else goes to pot – basically, Ascalon’s equivalent of the Hindenberg Line – not actually the northern border. Over the centuries, humans basically kept pushing further and further north. (Which is one difference with the siege of Ebonhawke – the lines there were pretty much stable for generations, while the charr kept getting reminded by humans seizing more and more land.) However, the charr did also have land east of the Blazeridge Mountains as well as to the north.

I do note, however, that there’s a lot of talk about how we had the human side of the story in GW1… but we really haven’t. Their side of the story of the Searing, yes, but we’ve never seen anything about WHY humans invaded Ascalon. Was it simply a land-grab, coming to the aid of the Forgotten at the behest of the gods, or were they provoked in some manner?

Whatever the ancient history, though, from an objective viewpoint the charr were certainly in the wrong for committing genocide and ecocide on Ascalon over events that happened generations past. However, the current generation of charr living in Ascalon were not responsible for this, and dispossessing them of their homes would be just as much of a crime as the Searing. It’s time to build a better future rather than to keep looking into the past.

Garenthal.1480:

It’s a bit silly that the charr are willing to undergo a huge cultural and behavioural shift in the space of 250 years and yet humanity is expected to roll over and forget about most of their problems, though.

Its not about forgetting but having other problems become the priority. In the time since then humanity has had to deal with distruction of its last capitol and the rebuilding elsewhere, an undead invasion, a centaur invasion, and now a rampant bandit problem. The charr and the Searing seem kind of far way when compared to how in there face those issue have been.

Its a case of picking what they can handle and what they have to let go of. Hell Lion’s Arch, their former capitol is not a independent city and the Lionguard are no longer loyal to Kryta.

draxynnic.3719

I do note, however, that there’s a lot of talk about how we had the human side of the story in GW1… but we really haven’t. Their side of the story of the Searing, yes, but we’ve never seen anything about WHY humans invaded Ascalon. Was it simply a land-grab, coming to the aid of the Forgotten at the behest of the gods, or were they provoked in some manner?

Whatever the ancient history, though, from an objective viewpoint the charr were certainly in the wrong for committing genocide and ecocide on Ascalon over events that happened generations past. However, the current generation of charr living in Ascalon were not responsible for this, and dispossessing them of their homes would be just as much of a crime as the Searing. It’s time to build a better future rather than to keep looking into the past.

We do get some hints in Orr suggesting the whole ‘GO CONQUER EVERYTHING’ was Balthazar’s bright idea. For all his might and passion, he doesnt seem to be a god that thinks things through much. Meanwhile Melandru was in the background facepalming while Balthazar went out and ruined all her careful work.

True, but we also see that Dwayna, along with Melandru, proposed peace, and Doric was Dwayna’s chosen. We know that humans certainly were all “gung-ho-conquer-EVERYTHING!” elsewhere, but we don’t know for sure that was the case here.

(Those Balthazaric scrolls do make it more likely humans were the aggressors, but there’s certainly still reasonable doubt at the very least)

Hey Drax, do you have a reference for Doric being Dwayna’s chosen? Im trying to find out more about him. His scroll didnt really tell us much new from what I remember and we see some pretty substancial changes in what we knew of his in the Arah dungeons.

Im wondering who was Doric and how did he end up king? Was he part of a bloodline of rulers from before the humans arrived or did the gods single his family out to rule?

It seems somewhat relevant considering that several characters in game make an issue of Jennah being the last of Doric’s line (to the best of our knowledge).

Well I think all this Charr stuff is just a matter of opinion.
Some people like it and some don’t!

I for myself hate all the other races than humans except the norn
(Only because they look like humans to me), I liked the “only human” thing in the first 3 games.
- Charr are enemies to me
- Asuras are just house elves to me
- Sylvari are …. well… uhm… plants I guess?

AH now I get this Trahearne thing! Plants vs Zombies easteregg *I see what you did there Anet ;-) *

And because of that I don’t really care anymore about the lore and just enjoy the awsome gameplay.

At least there aren’t 13 different races including panda bears

Lutinz: From the Scriptures of Dwayna in GW1:

’And when the world rang with the clanging of swords and did fire fall from the skies, Dwayna, goddess of life and air, heard the wailings and pleas of the weak.

And when the rumblings of war did not cease, came Her charge, Doric, who did prostrate himself at Her feet.

And cast She now a glance upon the war-torn lands and wasted flesh of the fallen, and with tears upon Her cheek did lay Her gentle hands upon the prostrate man. Then saith She unto to him and all Her charges, "Lay down thy weapons, and as I have done unto ye, so ye must do for your brethren. Offer protection to the weak. Give solace and shelter to those who need it. Be ye a salve to the wounded.

“For I am your goddess, and I will give blessings to all who follow these teachings.” ’

The Charr that are playable are not the same Charr that performed the Searing Ritual. Playable Charr are the offspring of the revolution started by Pyre, against the Shaman Caste. And while old cultural bias might still be there, they hardly refer to humans as mice or meat, which is a *huge* step forward for them. As for Rurik, he was the son of an insane tyrant who would rather have seen his entire kingdom soaked in innocent blood than accept the help of Kryta. The Charr judge him on the same lines as his father.

Charr refer to humans as mice all the time! They use it more often than they call them human.

Human and Charr cultural bais is pretty strongly ingrained. There are cracks in that bais but it will take time to break. You see in on case by case basis but large cultural shifts dont happen quickly.

Lutinz.6915:

Charr refer to humans as mice all the time! They use it more often than they call them human.

Human and Charr cultural bais is pretty strongly ingrained. There are cracks in that bais but it will take time to break. You see in on case by case basis but large cultural shifts dont happen quickly.

Which in itself is strange, considering the main redeeming quality of the charr is meant to be mutual respect for their allies regardless of their race.

When was the main redeeming quality of the charr ever suggested to be their mutual respect for their allies regardless of race? I thought the main redeeming qualities of the charr were supposed to be their resourcefulness, their pragmatism, their loyalty and their dicipline.