Guild Wars 2

So in actual gameplay no class is supposed to be more powerful than another, but what about in lore? What professions are most powerful and which are weakest?

Martial classes are the weakest based on historical feats achieved. magical classes strongest. Its hard to argue which is the strongest but we can reference materials to get some clues. We also have to note that magic casters are not rare in Tyria neither are martial professions. Therefore it is safe to assume martial classes are competitive enough with magic users.

We also have to note commonly held belief that martial classes use at some level magic to empower their attacks to be devastating as they are.

My take on it is magic professions may be able to do things on a cataclysmic scale given right conditions. 1v1 a powerful magical class could just lose for example Turai Ossa beats Joko.

Its a hard question to ask. magical users may be able to do some epic things but when bearing down against a powerful martial class they could easily be decapitated.

Zuko.7132:

So in actual gameplay no class is supposed to be more powerful than another, but what about in lore? What professions are most powerful and which are weakest?

It’s entirely situational.

For example, we have some pretty powerful feats for mesmers, but IIRC, almost every single case resulted in the mesmer self-harming themselves or outright killing themselves with the magic. The Mesmer in the Ebon Falcons blinded herself for a good while after summoning an illusion the size of the Eye of the North. Later on, she basically killed herself by summoning and maintaining an army of illusions.

We don’t really have similar feats for necromancers of Elementalistics (at least in scale), but we have the necromancer from the Ebon Falcons summoning minions from every dead person from the original ebonhawke settlement/mine. Eve ones summoned a graveyard full of minions.

Cynn IIRC brought down a firestorm on the ruins of her house, completely destroying the Charr threatening her.

Honestly, it’s seemed to me that your average spellcaster has a certain ‘power level’. Some can spike it very, very high, but at great risk to themselves. So it’s not very common.

We do actually have a case of a necromancer doing something like that – Naku, the necromancer in Tahnnakai Temple, sacrificed his life to summon an overly large army of minions and send them into the enemy.

Jennah’s illusion in Edge of Destiny is a pretty powerful example of what a mesmer can do without causing self-harm.

In terms of what you can do when the enemy is within weapons range of you, I think the professions genuinely are fairly even, assuming equal skill and so on. The differences are in what each profession can do if given time and resources. A warrior who’s out of sight and reach of the enemy is probably not doing anything useful (they might also be a smith or something, but that’s more of a complementary thing rather than part and parcel of being a warrior). A necromancer given time, corpses, and a source of magical energy, however, can turn themselves into a lich and become the undead lord of Elona, purely through the strength of their own necromancy, while the inventions of engineers an transform a society completely.

If push came to shove, I’d probably go with the following order, from most to least:

Necromancers
Engineers
Mesmers and elementalists
Guardians, rangers, and thieves
Warriors

I put necromancers first because while an engineer could arm an army, they still need loyal soldiers in order to wield them. A sufficiently powerful necromancer can raise their own. An exceptional mesmer or elementalist can turn the tide of a battle with a single powerful spell, but don’t have the ability to transform a society that necros and engies do. (Elementalists could theoretically create an army of elementals, but we’ve never heard of one building an army of elementals like the armies of undead we’ve seen created by necromancers sometimes. Mesmers might be able to mind-control people, but we’ve seen no evidence that they can do so on a societal level.)

Guardians, rangers, and thieves have some abilities to do things apart from simply fighting, but are probably still not able to go far beyond what we see in-game. While for warriors – what we see in-game is probably the extent of what they can do.

In my opinion based on Jennah Anise and Kasmeer Mesmers seem to be the most powerful. Although in a low magic level Tyria i think Ritualists and Necromancers would be really powerful

draxynnic.3719:

We do actually have a case of a necromancer doing something like that – Naku, the necromancer in Tahnnakai Temple, sacrificed his life to summon an overly large army of minions and send them into the enemy.

Another good example from the Tahnnakai Temple heroes would be the ranger Zojun, he and several other rangers raised an army of charmed animals that were so entirely overwhelming against the enemy that Zojun himself claims he didn’t need to fire a single arrow.

As for who is most powerful in these sort of exceptional cases I’d have to agree with idea that magical professions tend to be capable of large scale effects that are simply beyond the capabilities of martial professions.

That’s not to discount martial professions, history has shown us no matter how powerful the magic involved all it takes to ruin a magical rampage is one good warrior or assassin/thief.

Yeah, I considered the case of Zojun. The distinction is that Zojun did need the help of several other rangers rather than raising that army of animals himself – we don’t know the numbers or the ranger/animal ratio, but on the whole he seemed to be acting more like a traditional general (albeit with unconventional forces) as opposed to a necromancer that can create their own army.

(Although what we don’t know is what distinction there is in ability between creating mostly mindless and largely temporary minions, like PC necromancers do, as opposed to full undead as created by the likes of Joko and Khilbron. Both appear to be necromancers, but whether there’s more to it or whether full sapient undead binding the soul as well as animating the body is something that any necromancer can do if they learn how and have a sufficient lack of morality is unclear.)

draxynnic.3719:

We do actually have a case of a necromancer doing something like that – Naku, the necromancer in Tahnnakai Temple, sacrificed his life to summon an overly large army of minions and send them into the enemy.

Jennah’s illusion in Edge of Destiny is a pretty powerful example of what a mesmer can do without causing self-harm.

I’d say Jennah and Annise’s illusion (as both cast it IIRC), shows how the magic is situational.

Her example simply froze the defenders/living people of ebonhawke and made them look like branded with an illusion of Kralk flying past. It had no ill effects stated for Jennah and Annise.

However the lady in the Ebon Falcons summoned a full illusionary army/legion that charged into combat (and assumable maintained combat for a good while, maybe a day) with Charr, When she stumbled back to friendly lines, she was blind, and fell over dead.

Magic’s power is potentially limitless.

The body’s power is not.

So it stands to reason that casters have more POTENTIAL than martial classes.

That said, with few examples for me personally to draw upon, I’ll begrudgingly say that Mesmers have historically pulled some incredible feats of strength.

But on the pure physical side of the spectrum, we have civilian Norn taking on entire warbands with a bench.
If they have even a similar potential of growth as the other races do, I’d put my money on that one Norn warrior over that infinite army of illusions.

Personally, I’ve always been of the impression that while the average norn is more powerful than the average members of other races, the most skilled and experienced heroes of other races top out at the same level as norn. Moving aside from PCs, we see this with Destiny’s Edge – Eir is no more powerful than the others.

The difference is partially in that the norn lifestyle is such that they pretty much all reach adventurer-grade levels of ability or die trying. By contrast, even a charr can survive just at soldier-grade levels of fighting ability, with the soldier’s life usually not being quite so unforgiving of a life of going out and solo hunting the most dangerous prey you can find.

The other part is, of course, that norn are bigger, so when physical strength is a significant feature, they tend to come out ahead. I tend to think, though, that on the whole the larger races (norn, charr) have less magical potential than the smaller races (humans, sylvari, asura) – so while the larger races have a natural advantage, the smaller races can make up for it through magical means. However, with the possible exception of asura (since their society has the most focus on magic and probably the most widespread education in magic) it’s only the exceptional members of the smaller races that can do this*, so for average members, the larger races have the advantage.

draxynnic.3719:

Personally, I’ve always been of the impression that while the average norn is more powerful than the average members of other races, the most skilled and experienced heroes of other races top out at the same level as norn. Moving aside from PCs, we see this with Destiny’s Edge – Eir is no more powerful than the others.

This is an understatement. While Norn are my favorite playable race, I often wonder why they were made playable at all, considering their individual power in-lore.

Each race has it’s strengths and weaknesses- but if you looked at one of each race as an individual, as you’d look at a player, no matter what race they were…

Norn blows each race out of the water so much it can only be described as unfair and overpowered.

Eir shoots a longbow with the power of a ballista. A single Norn pushed back an invading Charr warband with the bench he sat on. The Norn had more success fighting Jormag than any race with the dragons that invaded their lands, while only sending 7 hunters- including a child…

I could go on, but getting back on topic- my point is I think casters are more powerful than warriors and the like, but the exception to this would be Norn. And since Norn aren’t especially known for any feats with magic, I’m only applying this exception to the martial classes.

If you go looking, though, you’ll find examples of similar things from other races (well, not the asura, because they don’t praise physical strength, or the sylvari, because they’re so young, but certainly humans and charr). They’re not as common, but that’s my point – norn society is all about building a legend, so norn are pressured to perform great deeds and boast about it. Thus, any given norn is much more likely to approach the maximum potential of their race and let everybody know what they’ve done… or die trying.

(It’s worth noting that basically every norn NPC has access to an elite skill, while most NPCs of other races do not, a further indication that the average norn is more powerful than the average members of other races.)

Granted, Asgeir went above and beyond, but he had the help of several Spirits of the Wild empowering him. That’s probably roughly equivalent to what Rytlock nearly did to Kralkatorrik, or to the PC going one-on-one with the Shadow of the Dragon.

I agree with the common opinion that it’s always about context when a profession’s power is concerned. Magic has always got the highest potential of raw power and large-scale effects to be achieved by a single person, but a very skilled and/or experienced warrior can still take out a powerful mage with pure martial expertise if they get close enough, as has been stated before.

However, in terms of power in connection with adaptability, I’m going to claim that mesmers are the potentially most powerful profession, hands down. They can pull off illusions (massive ones in some cases) and put hexes on people’s minds to influence reality, they can do speedcasting to interrupt enemy spells AND they can alter time. That can beat pretty much everything – potentially, that is.

Concerning Norn – while they are physically superior to the other races (including the Charr, though I’d give these guys one advantage in that they possess claws and fangs) by far, I agree with what draxynnic. There were human heroes that could best norn warriors

Mesmers can alter reality but they can’t create it beyond the most primitive of forces, (ether, light, dark).

Elementalists can create reality but they can’t alter it. They simply change energy or form into elemental forces.

Necromancers are vast changers but their abilities are locked behind ritual and substance. They also can only change that which is in the domain of life and death. The seem incapable of creating or altering reality, only moving forces between this world and the next.

Guardians cannot alter reality, they don’t even seem to create it either. The simply have a vast ability to manipulate light. Vast changers like the Necromancer they can make light burn, heal, cleanse, or even solidify it. Adding to it are a number of protective spells and defensive spells. As well as some very potent healing spells.

Rangers can’t do anything the spirits of the natural world don’t give them the power to accomplish, they can perform acts similar to all of the former professions, but again this is limited to the spiritual forces they channel.

Thieves and warriors are cousins to mesmers and guardians. The reside in the same magic families as the former but they eschew external manipulation. It is unlikely they could pull off any of the grand feats of the former.

Revenants can do anything their echoes could perform. Similar to a ranger and their spirits, their power is limited to how many echoes they have access to and how well they can channel them.

Engineers use technology that can mimic the effects of all the other professions.

I would say that the most powerful relies on what domain you are talking about. A Druid in the Maguuma jungle would have more strength than an elementalist but if you thrust them into the ocean the situation is reversed.

I don’t have much time to post right now, but I wanted to put it on the record that what Daniel is confidently posting as fact there are his own theories – some of which matches up with others, some of which is opposed by pretty much everyone in the threads he’s put them forward in.

draxynnic.3719:

I don’t have much time to post right now, but I wanted to put it on the record that what Daniel is confidently posting as fact there are his own theories – some of which matches up with others, some of which is opposed by pretty much everyone in the threads he’s put them forward in.

Would like me to simplify it to the reality that we don’t know much of anything beyond the theoretical in this aspect? Absolutely everything posted in this thread and this forum on this topic is some degree theoretical. To ask for power rankings without receiving an assumption of power is poor argument.

What meaning is a person with a bench who can killed at range by most casters. What meaning is a characters physical qualities when magic is limitless.

And what meaning is this discussion without theories on that limit. Otherwise mesmer wins every discussion on this ever.

In this case and in this thread, my main objection is to how you said it rather than what you said – in that you stated it in the authoritative voice rather than the subjective voice. Someone reading that could come away with the impression that what you said is actually explicitly stated somewhere and you were paraphrasing canon.

Starting with something along the lines of ‘my theory is…’, in this case, would be sufficient. I still disagree with it, but here isn’t the place to discuss that and I don’t want to derail the thread. But I did want to make sure that readers were aware that you were giving your own theory rather than summarising known canon.

draxynnic.3719:

In this case and in this thread, my main objection is to how you said it rather than what you said – in that you stated it in the authoritative voice rather than the subjective voice. Someone reading that could come away with the impression that what you said is actually explicitly stated somewhere and you were paraphrasing canon.

Starting with something along the lines of ‘my theory is…’, in this case, would be sufficient. I still disagree with it, but here isn’t the place to discuss that and I don’t want to derail the thread. But I did want to make sure that readers were aware that you were giving your own theory rather than summarising known canon.

Then I would place the burden on both. Given that you objectively declare mesmers unable to change society at the level of a necromancer or engie, yet we know full well evidence of the opposite.

The level of political shifts a mesmer can create is enough to alter a society. A mesmer could sever a lichs control over its minions. We have seen the reintroduction of time magic. The ability to influence outcome and alter reality still trumps all.

You’re going to need to give a citation for severing a lich’s control, but that’s more for curiosity than having any actual bearing. A warrior can (and has) severed a lich’s control by killing the lich.

About the rest: No, we don’t “know full well evidence of the opposite”. A mesmer can certainly influence a society quite effectively. They can’t create a kingdom of undead in their image like a powerful necromancer can, though, or start an industrial revolution like an engineer can. Their ability to alter reality seems to have fairly strict limits, at least for now: the chronomancer’s time magic, for instance, seems to only allow a few minutes at most: the commando events in GW1 indicates that this may develop in the future, but at the here and now, it’s not possible.

At the bottom line, two of the most powerful mesmers we know of, combined, can’t even keep their own society united behind them. This may be based on morality rather than capability, but we’ve seen no evidence that mesmers can mind control on the level required to personally control a society. If that was possible, I suspect some rogue mesmer would have at least tried, and the closest we’ve seen to that is Faolain.

The most powerful necromancer we know of is currently the dictator of Elona based purely on his own power and necromancy.

Oh, and by the way, regarding your implicit accusation of hypocrisy:

draxynnic.3719:

We do actually have a case of a necromancer doing something like that – Naku, the necromancer in Tahnnakai Temple, sacrificed his life to summon an overly large army of minions and send them into the enemy.

Jennah’s illusion in Edge of Destiny is a pretty powerful example of what a mesmer can do without causing self-harm.

In terms of what you can do when the enemy is within weapons range of you, I think the professions genuinely are fairly even, assuming equal skill and so on. The differences are in what each profession can do if given time and resources. A warrior who’s out of sight and reach of the enemy is probably not doing anything useful (they might also be a smith or something, but that’s more of a complementary thing rather than part and parcel of being a warrior). A necromancer given time, corpses, and a source of magical energy, however, can turn themselves into a lich and become the undead lord of Elona, purely through the strength of their own necromancy, while the inventions of engineers an transform a society completely.

If push came to shove, I’d probably go with the following order, from most to least:

Necromancers
Engineers
Mesmers and elementalists
Guardians, rangers, and thieves
Warriors

I put necromancers first because while an engineer could arm an army, they still need loyal soldiers in order to wield them. A sufficiently powerful necromancer can raise their own. An exceptional mesmer or elementalist can turn the tide of a battle with a single powerful spell, but don’t have the ability to transform a society that necros and engies do. (Elementalists could theoretically create an army of elementals, but we’ve never heard of one building an army of elementals like the armies of undead we’ve seen created by necromancers sometimes. Mesmers might be able to mind-control people, but we’ve seen no evidence that they can do so on a societal level.)

Guardians, rangers, and thieves have some abilities to do things apart from simply fighting, but are probably still not able to go far beyond what we see in-game. While for warriors – what we see in-game is probably the extent of what they can do.

So I think I’ve made it fairly clear that what I’ve said there is my opinion, with the possible exception of that line you pulled out… and I think it’s safe to say that objectively, creating a nation of undead or setting off an industrial revolution is a more significant transformation of society than a little political manipulation.

There’s the implication that Mesmers can control magic at it’s most basic level, which allows them to alter reality and manipulate other people’s magic.

I’d be interested in learning what exactly goes into becoming a lich. The highest tier feats of magic for necromancy come from those who have become liches, and the skill Lich Form in GW2 implies that becoming a lich grants greater power than your average necromancer.

That being said I do feel all the magical disciplines are in a similar tier of power with none being outright more powerful than the others in potential. Necromancers can become liches to become more powerful and create persistent undead armies which the other magic users don’t seem to have an equivalent of, but they aren’t necessarily the only ones capable of a similar feat.

It’s worth noting Gaheron Baelfire’s god form is one of the most impressive displays of elemental magic we’ve seen in GW2. Gaining a massive aura of fire and metal and conjuring boulders of lava isn’t exactly a small feat. We know the Flame Legion can bind armies of fire imps and flame elementals to their will to create armies which is my personal explanation for how they are able to contend with the other Legions despite being outnumbered. If we hadn’t killed Gaheron before his ascension there’s a very real chance he could have become the charr equivalent of Palawa Joko. Some sort of fiery elemental “lich” with immense power.

Isgarren, the wizard who owns the floating castle in Kessex Hills, can maintain an army of elementals to protect the town of Garenhoff, which also supports the idea that elementalists can use their magic to create armies and effect the world on a societal level. Isgarren doesn’t seem to have ambitions beyond living in his castle, but then we know so little about him.

I’d also rank engineers on the same scale as the casters purely because of what Scarlet was able to do. As much as I dislike aspects of her story (mostly how she managed to manipulate forces that should have killed her on sight much less made a deal with her) she WAS able to use her engineering to not only arm an army (Aetherblades) but BUILD an army (Steam creatures and clockwork soldiers). Engineers, like the spellcasters, just need time and resources to amass the power needed to be a dire threat to entire nations. The main limiting point for engineers is that the resources they need aren’t as easily acquired as magical energy (Though 2,000 years ago when magic was much weaker because of the Bloodstone this might be completely reversed).

draxynnic.3719:

Oh, and by the way, regarding your implicit accusation of hypocrisy:

draxynnic.3719:

We do actually have a case of a necromancer doing something like that – Naku, the necromancer in Tahnnakai Temple, sacrificed his life to summon an overly large army of minions and send them into the enemy.

Jennah’s illusion in Edge of Destiny is a pretty powerful example of what a mesmer can do without causing self-harm.

In terms of what you can do when the enemy is within weapons range of you, I think the professions genuinely are fairly even, assuming equal skill and so on. The differences are in what each profession can do if given time and resources. A warrior who’s out of sight and reach of the enemy is probably not doing anything useful (they might also be a smith or something, but that’s more of a complementary thing rather than part and parcel of being a warrior). A necromancer given time, corpses, and a source of magical energy, however, can turn themselves into a lich and become the undead lord of Elona, purely through the strength of their own necromancy, while the inventions of engineers an transform a society completely.

If push came to shove, I’d probably go with the following order, from most to least:

Necromancers
Engineers
Mesmers and elementalists
Guardians, rangers, and thieves
Warriors

I put necromancers first because while an engineer could arm an army, they still need loyal soldiers in order to wield them. A sufficiently powerful necromancer can raise their own. An exceptional mesmer or elementalist can turn the tide of a battle with a single powerful spell, but don’t have the ability to transform a society that necros and engies do. (Elementalists could theoretically create an army of elementals, but we’ve never heard of one building an army of elementals like the armies of undead we’ve seen created by necromancers sometimes. Mesmers might be able to mind-control people, but we’ve seen no evidence that they can do so on a societal level.)

Guardians, rangers, and thieves have some abilities to do things apart from simply fighting, but are probably still not able to go far beyond what we see in-game. While for warriors – what we see in-game is probably the extent of what they can do.

So I think I’ve made it fairly clear that what I’ve said there is my opinion, with the possible exception of that line you pulled out… and I think it’s safe to say that objectively, creating a nation of undead or setting off an industrial revolution is a more significant transformation of society than a little political manipulation.

Mesmers can block magic, what is a Lich with no magic. I love how you dance between I think and then objectively declare ability given resources. Yes there is hypocrisy there. Bolding the phrase of push came to shove doesn’t improve the context of a conclusion that came from analysis. You assert these definitions of ability in the same breath that I did. The only difference is you attempt to cite as if to declare it wasn’t a theory. Why even concern yourself with citing when given the introduction of HoT all you cite is meaningless. Your ranking is meaningless because it relates power to power in society.

I will address and quash a few points.

1) Mesmer’s can not do all the stuff people say they could potentially do mass scale stuff=death as someone said quoting books. To be honest even though some mesmer stuff is canon its poorly written. the fact that gw2 world is not run by mesmer puppeteers proves you are wrong. Even if it is implied some things as possible does not mean they are.

2) Liches are not your average necromancers. Liches in gw2 are made by magic rituals and certain situations and artifacts. (liches are super rare) So using liches to boast necromancer capabilities is wrong. Khilborn became a lich after reading scroll in arah that caused a cataclysm nuked the place killed the charr turned him into lich. He also got more powerful when he got the scepter of orr (controls undead and titans). They are also hard to kill. in prophecies you had to kill the lich on the bloodstone to suck his soul into the soul batteries. Ossa did not kill joko after defeating him because probably hes also a powerful lich and hard to kill.

draxynnic.3719:

About the rest: No, we don’t “know full well evidence of the opposite”. A mesmer can certainly influence a society quite effectively. They can’t create a kingdom of undead in their image like a powerful necromancer can, though, or start an industrial revolution like an engineer can. Their ability to alter reality seems to have fairly strict limits, at least for now: the chronomancer’s time magic, for instance, seems to only allow a few minutes at most: the commando events in GW1 indicates that this may develop in the future, but at the here and now, it’s not possible.

The commando events were april fools jokes, not canon at all.

At the bottom line, two of the most powerful mesmers we know of, combined, can’t even keep their own society united behind them. This may be based on morality rather than capability, but we’ve seen no evidence that mesmers can mind control on the level required to personally control a society. If that was possible, I suspect some rogue mesmer would have at least tried, and the closest we’ve seen to that is Faolain.

If the mesmer collective that Kasmeer/Marjory reference behaves anything like the Necromancer order (which had elementalists in it as well, so it might be a general magic user order, and not necromancer specific), they may very well combat or remove somebody who tries to rule over others purely through mind control.

So, in that theory’s line of thought, it may be nobody tries/does so because it makes them a very big target and their fellows will hunt them down.

The most powerful necromancer we know of is currently the dictator of Elona based purely on his own power and necromancy.

Also the fact there is no known way to kill Joko. :P

Vlad.1739:

I will address and quash a few points.

1) Mesmer’s can not do all the stuff people say they could potentially do mass scale stuff=death as someone said quoting books. To be honest even though some mesmer stuff is canon its poorly written. the fact that gw2 world is not run by mesmer puppeteers proves you are wrong. Even if it is implied some things as possible does not mean they are.

Extreme high end mesmer magic runs into infinite power loop arguments. However, as I noted, there is a minor possibility (at least in my head, unsure if anybody else thought of it) mesmers self-police each other to prevent mad ruling through mind control. Yes, extremely powerful illusions or spells cast by mesmers are indicated to drain their lifeforce, or at least harm them temporarily. Even in the PS we encounter a few cases that show what mesmers can do. Like turning a huge vigil force returning to camp into risen (in the eyes of the mortar team). Or making an ancient ruined manor look like it’s lively and in the middle of a party.

2) Liches are not your average necromancers. Liches in gw2 are made by magic rituals and certain situations and artifacts. (liches are super rare) So using liches to boast necromancer capabilities is wrong. Khilborn became a lich after reading scroll in arah that caused a cataclysm nuked the place killed the charr turned him into lich. He also got more powerful when he got the scepter of orr (controls undead and titans). They are also hard to kill. in prophecies you had to kill the lich on the bloodstone to suck his soul into the soul batteries. Ossa did not kill joko after defeating him because probably hes also a powerful lich and hard to kill.

Bar the “Lich form” spell, we have never been told how liches come about, period.

Khilborn was turned into a lich, but it’s unsure if that was related to Abbadon or the sheer cataclysmic power he unleashed from the scroll. Joko we don’t have a history for his turning into a lich. We’ve seen several others (including under Zhaitan) that don’t really have any lore around them.

Liches are, in a general sense (IMO), the high end of necromancer power for the most part.

Knox.8462:

There’s the implication that Mesmers can control magic at it’s most basic level, which allows them to alter reality and manipulate other people’s magic.

More than an implication, I think. However, it has limits – from what we’ve seen, they can only reproduce the magic of another magical profession if they have a member of that profession there to copy off.

In the lore they have a strong ability to shut down the magic of others, but I do not consider the ability to remove or prevent a magical effect to be as powerful as the ability to perform it. Most such effects require the mesmer to be within engagement distance, and anybody engaged at that distance probably does not have the leisure to perform some of the more elaborative effects as we’ve discussed here.

@Vlad: You make a valid point, but we don’t really know what makes a lich, or whether being a lich is required to have that level of ability to create undead or whether it’s that you need to have that level of ability to become a lich (which would fundamentally be using that magic on yourself).

@Kalavier: Re: the commando events: I consider them to be of dubious canonicity. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. Either way, chronomancers do not currently appear to be able to warp time by more than a few minutes: the commando events, if they are canon, simply suggest that this power may be possible to achieve in the future. (And even then it might need to involve some complicated asura technomancy and the like rather than being something that a single ornery mesmer can do on a whim.)

@Ehecatl: Yes, it’s entirely possible that an ascended Baelfire would be an elementalist equivalent of Joko. What we saw was certainly impressive… but still (at that point) restricted to the local area. It’s possible that if Baelfire hadn’t been stopped then, though, he might well have had the ability to conjure an army of elementals, invoke Searing-level effects at will, and generally behave like an angry god of flame.

Still, from what we’ve seen, elementalists aren’t capable of raising elemental armies at the level that necromancers (or at least liches) are capable of raising undead armies, though, so when push comes to shove, I’d be inclined to go with what’s been observed rather than hypotheticals. It’s entirely possible that the other professions are capable of reaching the same level in their own way, but at the moment, I think Joko is the one that’s got the furthest based on his own power derived from being a necromancer.

draxynnic.3719:

Knox.8462:

There’s the implication that Mesmers can control magic at it’s most basic level, which allows them to alter reality and manipulate other people’s magic.

More than an implication, I think. However, it has limits – from what we’ve seen, they can only reproduce the magic of another magical profession if they have a member of that profession there to copy off.

In the lore they have a strong ability to shut down the magic of others, but I do not consider the ability to remove or prevent a magical effect to be as powerful as the ability to perform it. Most such effects require the mesmer to be within engagement distance, and anybody engaged at that distance probably does not have the leisure to perform some of the more elaborative effects as we’ve discussed here.

@Vlad: You make a valid point, but we don’t really know what makes a lich, or whether being a lich is required to have that level of ability to create undead or whether it’s that you need to have that level of ability to become a lich (which would fundamentally be using that magic on yourself).

@Kalavier: Re: the commando events: I consider them to be of dubious canonicity. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. Either way, chronomancers do not currently appear to be able to warp time by more than a few minutes: the commando events, if they are canon, simply suggest that this power may be possible to achieve in the future. (And even then it might need to involve some complicated asura technomancy and the like rather than being something that a single ornery mesmer can do on a whim.)

@Ehecatl: Yes, it’s entirely possible that an ascended Baelfire would be an elementalist equivalent of Joko. What we saw was certainly impressive… but still (at that point) restricted to the local area. It’s possible that if Baelfire hadn’t been stopped then, though, he might well have had the ability to conjure an army of elementals, invoke Searing-level effects at will, and generally behave like an angry god of flame.

Still, from what we’ve seen, elementalists aren’t capable of raising elemental armies at the level that necromancers (or at least liches) are capable of raising undead armies, though, so when push comes to shove, I’d be inclined to go with what’s been observed rather than hypotheticals. It’s entirely possible that the other professions are capable of reaching the same level in their own way, but at the moment, I think Joko is the one that’s got the furthest based on his own power derived from being a necromancer.

But we don’t know how joko became a lich and the lich we do know the origin story of did not do it through his own power of being a necromancer. It seems very unlikely that palawa would have the power of an elder dragon simply by training.

@kalavier: I think your theory of mesmer collective policing such activity has some credence but we also have to look at society in guild wars universe.

TLDR: If mesmer could manipulate people effectively society would actually fear them for what they could do but they do not. I pulled evidence in reference of how mesmers are treated in society to show they do not have the capacity to shape events on a grand scale.

In most of Tyrian history mesmers are respected members in the theatrical community. pre-searing GW1 you see mesmer trainer near an amphitheater. Norgu is a respected actor. These examples show mesmers are never feared for what they can do but loved. There was no historical reason in general to fear mesmers. When we compare historical social hate towards necromancers who pull souls unwillingly into undead and constructs they get a lot of hate. I can cite Verata’s cult which used forbidden practices to further minion research. There not many easily cite able cases of mesmers doing activities such as political manipulation and puppeteering.

Further cases showing Mesmers are not partaking in mind control activities. If mesmers were mind controlling for influence, how come historically the leaders of humanity often are martial professions. there is no evidence of mesmers pulling the strings people close to the leaders were often not mesmers either. Only recently have we got leader that is a mesmer. Also note that countess Anise in the story mission where she uses a mesmer clone of herself at a party the reason nobody notices is because Canach is there scaring off everyone from interacting with the clone. Canach realizes that it is a clone after a couple of minutes and begins actively behaving in a manner to drive people away. This shows that people have potential to see through mesmer magic with proper insight and this is why we are not ruled by mesmer overlords.

Shiro chosen as the emperors bodyguard rather than a magic profession. Shiro being one of the most powerful assassins ever can gut any magic caster in seconds at the first hint of magic use. It can also be argued that the demon that tricked Shiro into killing the emperor with magic. the real trigger that made Shiro kill the emperor was the a series of odd event changes in the proper way the ceremony occurs and the fortune tellers influence. The fortune teller is probably the only true example of mesmer manipulation to shape events and it was not 100% mesmers doing. There was also little proof magic was involved in the cutscenes

Now you could argue mesmers brainwash people to not know about these events but I think that goes into the realm of pulling evidence from thin air.

That may not be coincidence. If the emperor had received a ‘warning’ that someone would kill him and that he should increase security at the Harvest Festival, then that would explain bringing his bodyguard into the temple.

Personally, I suspect that the Nightmare Court might represent the limits of mesmerism gone rogue. We see some cases of mind-control – mostly of skritt, who may be particularly susceptible, and some people have pointed to Cadeyrne’s out-of-character lapdog-esque behaviour in TA story as Cadeyrne being mesmerically influenced by Faolain.

But Faolain and the other Nightmare Court mesmers haven’t been able to mind-control their way into taking over sylvari society… even though it’s quite likely that, at least early on in the Nightmare Court’s founding, Faolain was the most powerful sylvari mesmer and there was no Mesmer Collective or similar organisation to oppose her. What we see in the Nightmare Court’s recruiting strategy appears to be a mix of Stockholm syndrome, whatever happens inside conversion pods, and good old-fashioned demagoguery.

draxynnic.3719:

@Kalavier: Re: the commando events: I consider them to be of dubious canonicity. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. Either way, chronomancers do not currently appear to be able to warp time by more than a few minutes: the commando events, if they are canon, simply suggest that this power may be possible to achieve in the future. (And even then it might need to involve some complicated asura technomancy and the like rather than being something that a single ornery mesmer can do on a whim.)

I consider them to be amusing terminator jokes, given the gear of the guy and him standing next to a very modern combat helicopter. Maybe at some point they’ll be able to do it, but I definitely wouldn’t include it in a list of what classes could do.

Vlad.1739:

In most of Tyrian history mesmers are respected members in the theatrical community. pre-searing GW1 you see mesmer trainer near an amphitheater. Norgu is a respected actor. These examples show mesmers are never feared for what they can do but loved. There was no historical reason in general to fear mesmers. When we compare historical social hate towards necromancers who pull souls unwillingly into undead and constructs they get a lot of hate. I can cite Verata’s cult which used forbidden practices to further minion research. There not many easily cite able cases of mesmers doing activities such as political manipulation and puppeteering.

A: I’d say the mesmers who perform plays use their magic and illusions to help set the scenes/mood (or an off-screen one does so).

B: There may be some dislike of necromancers, but not masses of outright hate.

Besides, Mesmers typically end up as attractive, well dressed and spoken people (in human culture at least). Of course people are going to like them better :P.

Kalavier.1097:

draxynnic.3719:

@Kalavier: Re: the commando events: I consider them to be of dubious canonicity. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. Either way, chronomancers do not currently appear to be able to warp time by more than a few minutes: the commando events, if they are canon, simply suggest that this power may be possible to achieve in the future. (And even then it might need to involve some complicated asura technomancy and the like rather than being something that a single ornery mesmer can do on a whim.)

I consider them to be amusing terminator jokes, given the gear of the guy and him standing next to a very modern combat helicopter. Maybe at some point they’ll be able to do it, but I definitely wouldn’t include it in a list of what classes could do.

Pretty much. Whatever its canon status is, it’s not an indication that mesmers can do that. At least not at the present time.

In terms of raw power I would say elementalist probably have he most “power” to wield, with mesmers tying them depending on the Mesmer.

Then probably necromancer, guardian, engineer, warrior, ranger, thief

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the system (not that I believe it much, myself).

@Vlad Why would a Mesmer use mind control in order to elevate their status to head of a given organization or group of people? Wouldn’t it be safer (and wiser) to instead sit in the shadows and manipulate the leader into making the choices you want them to make? That way, in case of a revolt the figurehead (now the scapegoat) gets all the blame and the Mesmer can hide away and try again when a new leader is appointed.

draxynnic.3719:

@Ehecatl: Yes, it’s entirely possible that an ascended Baelfire would be an elementalist equivalent of Joko. What we saw was certainly impressive… but still (at that point) restricted to the local area. It’s possible that if Baelfire hadn’t been stopped then, though, he might well have had the ability to conjure an army of elementals, invoke Searing-level effects at will, and generally behave like an angry god of flame.

Still, from what we’ve seen, elementalists aren’t capable of raising elemental armies at the level that necromancers (or at least liches) are capable of raising undead armies, though, so when push comes to shove, I’d be inclined to go with what’s been observed rather than hypotheticals. It’s entirely possible that the other professions are capable of reaching the same level in their own way, but at the moment, I think Joko is the one that’s got the furthest based on his own power derived from being a necromancer.

It’s also worth mentioning that Joko failed on his first attempt at conquest. He only succeeded the second time by damming up a river and letting the natural climate of Elona do most of his work for him. He also had a base of operations in an area his enemies couldn’t easily invade because of how dangerous the Desolation was to non-undead.

If he had attempted the same in say, Kryta, he would have failed miserably. It wasn’t just his own power, it was a combination of his power, his experiences from his last defeat, his army’s unique ability to thrive in an inhospitable area (which is more the nature of undeath than a matter of power), access to a vital river, and the land weakening and killing most of his opposition. And of course it took him 60 years to build up his forces to the point he could do this.

I’m not saying it wasn’t impressive because it certainly was, but it wasn’t purely the power of his necromancy.

As for elemental armies, we actually see a decent amount of that. The Flame Legion can summon and bind flame elementals to their control that are persistent in the world. They also create flame effigies which are giant, walking engines of destruction. Coupled with Isgarren’s elemental army in Garenhoff it seems pretty reasonable that an elementalist can make an army of elementals given enough time that won’t dissipate after a set time limit.

In the case of Isgarren I believe it was said that the elementals were at one point wild, and he merely bound them to his control. Even then it seems probable than an elementalist with access to a lot of wild elementals, which aren’t that uncommon in the game at least, and a time comparable to 60 years could be a similarly dangerous threat under the same environmental circumstances.

Ehecatl.9172:

draxynnic.3719:

@Ehecatl: Yes, it’s entirely possible that an ascended Baelfire would be an elementalist equivalent of Joko. What we saw was certainly impressive… but still (at that point) restricted to the local area. It’s possible that if Baelfire hadn’t been stopped then, though, he might well have had the ability to conjure an army of elementals, invoke Searing-level effects at will, and generally behave like an angry god of flame.

Still, from what we’ve seen, elementalists aren’t capable of raising elemental armies at the level that necromancers (or at least liches) are capable of raising undead armies, though, so when push comes to shove, I’d be inclined to go with what’s been observed rather than hypotheticals. It’s entirely possible that the other professions are capable of reaching the same level in their own way, but at the moment, I think Joko is the one that’s got the furthest based on his own power derived from being a necromancer.

It’s also worth mentioning that Joko failed on his first attempt at conquest. He only succeeded the second time by damming up a river and letting the natural climate of Elona do most of his work for him. He also had a base of operations in an area his enemies couldn’t easily invade because of how dangerous the Desolation was to non-undead.

If he had attempted the same in say, Kryta, he would have failed miserably. It wasn’t just his own power, it was a combination of his power, his experiences from his last defeat, his army’s unique ability to thrive in an inhospitable area (which is more the nature of undeath than a matter of power), access to a vital river, and the land weakening and killing most of his opposition. And of course it took him 60 years to build up his forces to the point he could do this.

I’m not saying it wasn’t impressive because it certainly was, but it wasn’t purely the power of his necromancy.

As for elemental armies, we actually see a decent amount of that. The Flame Legion can summon and bind flame elementals to their control that are persistent in the world. They also create flame effigies which are giant, walking engines of destruction. Coupled with Isgarren’s elemental army in Garenhoff it seems pretty reasonable that an elementalist can make an army of elementals given enough time that won’t dissipate after a set time limit.

In the case of Isgarren I believe it was said that the elementals were at one point wild, and he merely bound them to his control. Even then it seems probable than an elementalist with access to a lot of wild elementals, which aren’t that uncommon in the game at least, and a time comparable to 60 years could be a similarly dangerous threat under the same environmental circumstances.

How do you make the difference between ability and perseverance?

A man who graduates college at 18 is not the same as one who takes 30 years to graduate.

By what probability range should we restrain potential?

Daniel Handler.4816:

How do you make the difference between ability and perseverance?

A man who graduates college at 18 is not the same as one who takes 30 years to graduate.

By what probability range should we restrain potential?

I don’t understand what you’re asking. It took Joko 60 years to amass the forces needed to take Elona, and that was after having failed a previous time and learning from his mistakes.

I’m saying an elementalist who also has 60 years of time to prepare and similar environmental advantages could conceivably do the same.

Ehecatl.9172:

Daniel Handler.4816:

How do you make the difference between ability and perseverance?

A man who graduates college at 18 is not the same as one who takes 30 years to graduate.

By what probability range should we restrain potential?

I don’t understand what you’re asking. It took Joko 60 years to amass the forces needed to take Elona, and that was after having failed a previous time and learning from his mistakes.

I’m saying an elementalist who also has 60 years of time to prepare and similar environmental advantages could conceivably do the same.

Sorry let me clarify. A task that takes a person 60 years is only as impressive as the method to achieve it.

If it takes me 60 years to tie my shoe, it would not be lauded as a sign of human potential, some can tie theirs in 1/2 of a second.

Events that are impressive are usually impressive because they are statistically improbable to occur for whatever reason. And the more statistically improbable the less likely they should be used in ranking, for extremely amazing things don’t happen enough to draw data from them.

In the 60 years we assign to ele or necromancer the other classes could probably achieve something as remarkable.

So how are you deciding whether something like Lichs or the elemental army is just simple perseverance or examples of outstanding ability?

Or even neither, one dude read from a scroll and became a Lich, intervention doesn’t exactly show potential, e.g Shiro got strong not under his merits as an assasin.

That’s actually kind of my point. We know it took a huge amount of time for Palawa Joko to amass that army, and even once he had it he had to use underhanded tactics and exploit the environment of Elona to conquer it.

Just because a Necromancer with an immense amount of time to prepare and the perfect environmental factors (Vabbi being a desert and humans not being able to survive in the Desolation) was able to do something outstanding doesn’t necessarily mean necromancy is the most powerful school of magic. An elementalist could conceivably do something similar with the same advantages.

You make a valid point: Joko did have terrain advantages to do that. He used them in his first attempt, too.

However, my point is that he was able to build such a large army and bind it to him simply from the fact of being a necromancer. Even if we ignore his conquest of Vabbi, Kourna and Istan, he still had a nation that was as powerful as any of them, purely through the undead that he had raised over the years.

It’s true that an elementalist could achieve the same, given the opportunity. However, what we’ve seen seems to indicate that elementalists creating elemental armies can’t quite achieve quite the same number as necromancers can. Consider the frost golems used by the Stone Summit in Guild Wars 1, for instance: they were a significant addition to the Stone Summit’s military capabilities, but they still appeared to be an auxiliary force compared to the flesh-and-blood dwarves. The Flame Legion is significantly more oriented towards elemental magic than the Stone Summit was, but again, with all the elementalists that the Flame Legion have and with Gaheron having been on the verge of apotheoisis, the Flame Legion’s elementals are supplemental troops and heavy hitters, and don’t appear to be the bulk of their force.

Garrenhoff is the one place where elementals appear to have replaced conventional forces entirely, and even then, with Isgarren having been in the area for generations, there are only enough present to defend a small port town with significant natural defenses (albeit, to be fair, not as potent as the Desolation in that regard). This could be because Isgarren has no ambition to spread further, or that he’s biding his time while building up a larger army on his flying tower. However, there is a stark distinction between Joko, who had sixty years in a virtually unassailable position and used it to conquer a continent, and Isgarren, who seems to have had sixty years in a virtually unassailable position and used it to garrison a town (and with the full cooperation on the townsfolk).

On a smaller scale, compare Draithor to Ulgoth. Of the two, Ulgoth is the one that is significantly more powerful in personal terms – Ulgoth is a world boss and the commander in chief of the centaur army, while Draithor is a simple champion and an exile hiding out in the swamps. However, Draithor’s built up a small army of minions in his exile. Ulgoth, once his regular army breaks, is able to conjure a single elemental. It’s an impressive elemental, but that’s what he’s got, and we don’t see Ulgoth and his fellow earth shamans conjuring large armies of elementals to supplement their conventional forces. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that War Beasts were either a kind of elemental or at least infused with elemental forces, but their numbers are fairly small and they’re generally used in a similar fashion as the Flame Legion uses effigies.

From what we’ve seen, both directly in-game and more generally in events in the lore, it appears that given the opportunity a powerful elementalist can raise and maintain a platoon of elementals, maybe a company. A powerful necromancer, given the opportunity, can raise whole armies.

To be fair, Joko couldn’t bind an army that size just by being a normal necromancer. I feel you’re underplaying the fact he’s a very ancient lich with centuries of knowledge under his belt. There are very few beings alive today that are even close to his level of expertise in his field. We also know that the act of even temporarily becoming a lich is an elite skill among necromancers, so it’s fair to assume becoming one also enhances your necromancy.

Granted we don’t know what the process of becoming a lich is, but even if it’s a form accessible to any sufficiently skilled necromancer and not a result of a freak accident or use of some artifact it’s clear that the vast majority of necromancers never achieve this level of power.

As for necromancers having the numerical advantage, I’d tend to agree. However it’s also worth noting that there is the matter of availability to consider. A necromancer needs only corpses to raise an army where as an elementalist needs to either pull an elemental creature from another world or to take control of an existing elemental. The resources to create an elemental army is much harder to come by than an army of undead.

Elementals also seem to be more powerful on average as they have their own magical attributes. They launch elemental spells all their own, many of which are area of effect attacks, are resistant to certain elemental attacks, and some of them can fly and teleport around.

This is all just army to army though. Necromancers more or less specialize in raising an army. That is the thing they do better than any other caster. But they don’t have the sheer devastation that an elementalist can unleash. The three core magic users all have very high end feats in their respective specialties. Necromancers create large forces of undead, elementalists perform feats of destruction on the scale of wiping out whole squads and taking down walls, and mesmers create massive and intricate illusions that can fool anyone.

Going with your centaur example. The elemental Ulgoth summoned wasn’t just an elemental, it was also a storm. There was a whirlwind surrounding those massive stone fists that were hurling cattle and debris around as well. And during the Battle of Shaemoor Ulgoth was summoning additional lesser earth elementals while channeling the spell to maintain the giant one. With it he was able to take on whole squads of Seraph and was only stopped by the guy who runs around fighting Dragon Champions these days.

And yes, Draithor made a small army of undead to protect his little cave where he did his experiments. By all accounts he was an exceptionally gifted necromancer by centaur standards. But in the end he was an exile. Ulgoth however was so powerful he was able to instill fear in the Harathi tribe, which was much larger than the Modniir tribe Ulgoth lead.

Ultimately Ulgoth’s raw power as an elementalist had a substantially greater influence on centaur society than Draithor did as a necromancer.

Rangers can tame bacon. No other profession can do this.

Therefore, logically, rangers > all other classes.

Sidenti.6035:

Rangers can tame bacon. No other profession can do this.

Therefore, logically, rangers > all other classes.

I’m vegetarian and we have seen that mesmers like Countess Anise can tame salad. I dispute your findings >.<

Daniel Handler.4816:

Sidenti.6035:

Rangers can tame bacon. No other profession can do this.

Therefore, logically, rangers > all other classes.

I’m vegetarian and we have seen that mesmers like Countess Anise can tame salad. I dispute your findings >.<

Salad isn’t bacon. Bacon > salad. This is true for all lifestyles as well as all religious beliefs and all perversions.

Ehecatl.9172:

To be fair, Joko couldn’t bind an army that size just by being a normal necromancer. I feel you’re underplaying the fact he’s a very ancient lich with centuries of knowledge under his belt. There are very few beings alive today that are even close to his level of expertise in his field. We also know that the act of even temporarily becoming a lich is an elite skill among necromancers, so it’s fair to assume becoming one also enhances your necromancy.

True enough. As we’ve both acknowledged, we don’t know what the process for becoming a lich is, or how it influences necromancy. It does seem, however, that at the very least lichdom seems to be easier to achieve than any similar forms of apotheosis achieved by other professions – we know of at least three, while in the case of elemental-based apotheosis, we know of only one attempt. This suggests to me that, if there is something about lichdom that enhances necromancy, it seems to be easier than any equivalents that other professions may have – and being easier to transform into a more powerful state, to me, seems like it translates into having a higher potential.

It did strike me that in all this, I’ve been avoiding mentioning Khilbron, since it’s hard to say how much of his army was his own work and how much was the Cataclysm. However, the inhabitants of the Shards of Orr dungeon were the result of a curse by an “advisor” to the King of Orr, which may be Khilbron or may be a predecessor, but seems to indicate another case of being able to create an army. This may be because Khilbron had already turned himself into a lich before the Cataclysm and had been hiding it, or it could be that being a lich isn’t necessary to have this power, but having that power is necessary to becoming a lich. (Most necromancers don’t seem to be capable of creating sapient undead, or choose not to. Becoming a lich of one’s own volition would require finding a means to transform yourself into a sapient undead, which is probably harder than doing it to someone else.)

As for necromancers having the numerical advantage, I’d tend to agree. However it’s also worth noting that there is the matter of availability to consider. A necromancer needs only corpses to raise an army where as an elementalist needs to either pull an elemental creature from another world or to take control of an existing elemental. The resources to create an elemental army is much harder to come by than an army of undead.

I’m not sure about that. There’s a quest in the Northern Shiverpeaks that suggests that the Stone Summit create their Frost Golems, rather than summoning them. Mind you, we know that the Stone Summit used summoning magic as well, so it’s possible that Howland simply misunderstood what was going on.

That said, I’m inclined to think that elementalists can create new elementals given a suitable supply of an appropriate element and enough magical energy. The source of most wild elementals, from what we’ve been told, is simply having enough magical energy of the right kind in an area leads to elementals spontaneously arising from the elements present there. It stands to reason that a sufficiently powerful elementalist can create an elemental by channeling magic in a directed fashion to achieve their objective, and this may in fact be exactly what the associated Glyphs are doing. Thus, I don’t think it’s an issue of availability, but an issue of it taking much more investment for an elementalists to create, bind, and maintain an elemental of equivalent power than it takes a necromancer to create an undead.

Elementals also seem to be more powerful on average as they have their own magical attributes. They launch elemental spells all their own, many of which are area of effect attacks, are resistant to certain elemental attacks, and some of them can fly and teleport around.

True, although sapient undead, as created by the various liches and (possibly) by powerful living necromancers with lower moral standards, retain the abilities they have in life, such as spellcasting. In Guild Wars 2, even some minions appear to have some minor magic (blood fiends stealing life, shadow fiends teleporting, bone fiends doing whatever it is they’re doing when they go into ‘immobilise the enemy’ mode).

This is all just army to army though. Necromancers more or less specialize in raising an army. That is the thing they do better than any other caster. But they don’t have the sheer devastation that an elementalist can unleash. The three core magic users all have very high end feats in their respective specialties. Necromancers create large forces of undead, elementalists perform feats of destruction on the scale of wiping out whole squads and taking down walls, and mesmers create massive and intricate illusions that can fool anyone.

This is something I was thinking myself. I’m quite sure that elementalists can’t maintain the army size that a necromancer can, but are they capable of simply annihilating an army through sheer power?

However, that’s hypothetical. Baelfire’s lava boulders could be stopped by Logan raising a shield – while at that admittedly early stage in his apotheosis, he could not penetrate the defenses of a mortal (albeit powerful) guardian. We could guess at where he could have reached if not stopped, but I find the demonstrated capabilities of Joko and his ilk more convincing. If we ever do see an elementalist achieving something similar, then that will be cause for reconsideration, but in the meantime, we know that liches have reached a certain power level, while the ability of other professions to do so, let alone what they might do when they get there, remains theoretical.

And yes, Draithor made a small army of undead to protect his little cave where he did his experiments. By all accounts he was an exceptionally gifted necromancer by centaur standards. But in the end he was an exile. Ulgoth however was so powerful he was able to instill fear in the Harathi tribe, which was much larger than the Modniir tribe Ulgoth lead.

Ultimately Ulgoth’s raw power as an elementalist had a substantially greater influence on centaur society than Draithor did as a necromancer.

I think the distinction is cultural. From memory, it’s mentioned in Kessex that Draithor is an exile because centaurs don’t like necromancy, and when it’s stated that Draithor is powerful in necromancy, this is followed by a ‘for his kind’.

This matches with observations – I think Draithor is the only centaur necromancer we see in GW2, and they were rare in GW1 (Maguuma Warlocks plus the occasional boss).

Meanwhile, the centaurs in GW2’s time have a religion that sanctifies earth magic, similar to how the charr in GW1 (and the Flame Legion even now) considered fire to be sacred. Thus, it’s likely cultural factors that have lead to an earth elementalist being the leader of the centaurs – perhaps it’s a requirement to achieve that rank similar to how, for the Flame Legion, fire elementalists are the highest caste, perhaps it’s because centaurs from the higher castes are encouraged to become earth elementalists, or perhaps it’s a combination of both.

Either way, I think it’s a cultural distinction. Centaurs approve of earth elementalists, they do not approve of necromancers. Therefor, elementalists are able to rise higher in centaur ranks than necromancers. However, elementalists do appear to require the support of their society in order to become a major threat, while Tyrian history is littered with necromancers that became serious threats despite being outcasts with no known allies apart from those they raised themselves.

See my sig. You don’t find friends with salads, therefor taming salad is impossible (nor would it hold any benefits). Bow to your new overlord: the Bacontamer Ranger

If we don’t know the process of becoming a Lich beyond one. And in that one divine power was used. How can we reasonably assume the other two examples of becoming a Lich were not divine power. Or if even a power source not readily available.

Because if Lich is the pinnacle of necromancers, then Shiro tagachi is among the pinnacle of assassins/maybe thieves.

And the actions of Shiro are every bit as transformative as Joko if we are going to comment on those who reach “apotheosis” not with their own power.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

See my sig. You don’t find friends with salads, therefor taming salad is impossible (nor would it hold any benefits). Bow to your new overlord: the Bacontamer Ranger

Hmm I was under the interpretation that when people like Caithe go to eat out they prefer salad.

draxynnic.3719:

True enough. As we’ve both acknowledged, we don’t know what the process for becoming a lich is, or how it influences necromancy. It does seem, however, that at the very least lichdom seems to be easier to achieve than any similar forms of apotheosis achieved by other professions – we know of at least three, while in the case of elemental-based apotheosis, we know of only one attempt. This suggests to me that, if there is something about lichdom that enhances necromancy, it seems to be easier than any equivalents that other professions may have – and being easier to transform into a more powerful state, to me, seems like it translates into having a higher potential.

Not necessarily. A new form being more common suggests it’s easier to attain that power, but not that said power is greater than the equivalent power achieved by a different transformation.

It did strike me that in all this, I’ve been avoiding mentioning Khilbron, since it’s hard to say how much of his army was his own work and how much was the Cataclysm. However, the inhabitants of the Shards of Orr dungeon were the result of a curse by an “advisor” to the King of Orr, which may be Khilbron or may be a predecessor, but seems to indicate another case of being able to create an army. This may be because Khilbron had already turned himself into a lich before the Cataclysm and had been hiding it, or it could be that being a lich isn’t necessary to have this power, but having that power is necessary to becoming a lich. (Most necromancers don’t seem to be capable of creating sapient undead, or choose not to. Becoming a lich of one’s own volition would require finding a means to transform yourself into a sapient undead, which is probably harder than doing it to someone else.)

Khilbron also had access to a lot of ancient artifacts. We can’t be 100% sure that anything he did was under his own power. Not even becoming a lich. Especially since I don’t believe any references suggest he was a lich prior to the Cataclysm. Shoot, for all we know Abeddon could’ve been the cause of his transformation as a reward for destroying Orr.

That said, I’m inclined to think that elementalists can create new elementals given a suitable supply of an appropriate element and enough magical energy. The source of most wild elementals, from what we’ve been told, is simply having enough magical energy of the right kind in an area leads to elementals spontaneously arising from the elements present there. It stands to reason that a sufficiently powerful elementalist can create an elemental by channeling magic in a directed fashion to achieve their objective, and this may in fact be exactly what the associated Glyphs are doing. Thus, I don’t think it’s an issue of availability, but an issue of it taking much more investment for an elementalists to create, bind, and maintain an elemental of equivalent power than it takes a necromancer to create an undead.

Even if you can create the elementals we’re pretty much in agreement here. It’s more difficult to summon/create/bind an elemental than it is to raise a corpse. There’s also the important point to remember that elementals are sentient entities in their own right where as most undead are mindless husks. It would naturally be more difficult to keep thinking beings under your control than an army of puppets.

True, although sapient undead, as created by the various liches and (possibly) by powerful living necromancers with lower moral standards, retain the abilities they have in life, such as spellcasting. In Guild Wars 2, even some minions appear to have some minor magic (blood fiends stealing life, shadow fiends teleporting, bone fiends doing whatever it is they’re doing when they go into ‘immobilise the enemy’ mode).

Do we have any examples of liches creating sapient undead without an artifact like the Scepter of Orr or simply binding ones who already existed like the Orrian dead? Keep in mind that to do this implies the lich is strong enough to prevent Grenth from claiming the soul. To my knowledge only Zhaitan has been strong enough to drag a soul out of the underworld under his own power.

This is something I was thinking myself. I’m quite sure that elementalists can’t maintain the army size that a necromancer can, but are they capable of simply annihilating an army through sheer power?

However, that’s hypothetical. Baelfire’s lava boulders could be stopped by Logan raising a shield – while at that admittedly early stage in his apotheosis, he could not penetrate the defenses of a mortal (albeit powerful) guardian. We could guess at where he could have reached if not stopped, but I find the demonstrated capabilities of Joko and his ilk more convincing. If we ever do see an elementalist achieving something similar, then that will be cause for reconsideration, but in the meantime, we know that liches have reached a certain power level, while the ability of other professions to do so, let alone what they might do when they get there, remains theoretical.

Logan is himself a powerful guardian, and he was dedicating all his attention to maintaining that shield to the point he couldn’t attack and needed Rytlock and the group to attack Baelfire. Those lava balls did quite the number on your PC if you got hit by one. I’m also inclined to point out that Palawa Joko was similarly taken down by Turai Ossa despite having an army of undead and his own potent magic to fight with.

It would seem that a small assassination squad of heroes is equally effective at dealing with upper tier casters, whether necromancer or elementalist. Joko just had the advantage of no one knowing how to finish him off. Then again, Baelfire would’ve resurrected if we hadn’t gone in and stopped it.

I think the distinction is cultural. From memory, it’s mentioned in Kessex that Draithor is an exile because centaurs don’t like necromancy, and when it’s stated that Draithor is powerful in necromancy, this is followed by a ‘for his kind’.

It wasn’t just a matter of culture. I’m fairly confident it was stated that Ulgoth ruled through fear. He was the most powerful earth elementalist among the centaur we saw, and it was his power that made the Harathi submit to him. Not their admiration for his closeness to the earth. Ulgoth is depicted as a monster of a ruler.

The game also supports the idea that Ulgoth > Draithor by making Ulgoth the end boss of a very long centaur event chain of the last major centaur-focused zone.

Though it’s harder to argue for Ulgoth because a lot of what makes him so powerful can be summed up as game mechanics. But based on what they’ve both achieved with their magic and the sheer scale of the spells Ulgoth uses I’d be inclined to say Ulgoth would win in a direct confrontation.

I’d offer more feats of power by elementalists but the more I think on it the more I notice how few elementalists are given a leading role in Guild Wars stories. A lot of the good feats come from minor characters that I only remember from their feats.

There was a grawl shaman in an event line that was able to use air magic on a large enough scale to deflect projectiles from hitting his grawl army, for example. But I can’t recall any other details about that event.

Daniel Handler.4816:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

See my sig. You don’t find friends with salads, therefor taming salad is impossible (nor would it hold any benefits). Bow to your new overlord: the Bacontamer Ranger

Hmm I was under the interpretation that when people like Caithe go to eat out they prefer salad.

I get it!

Ehecatl.9172:

Not necessarily. A new form being more common suggests it’s easier to attain that power, but not that said power is greater than the equivalent power achieved by a different transformation.

My contention is that being easier to attain that power as a necromancer suggests that the necromancer has greater potential. If there are three super-powered necromancers (including Zoldark the Unholy from Vloxen Excavations) and only one potential super-powered elementalist on a similar scale that we know of, that suggests to me that necromancer is the profession with more overall potential to become superpowered.

Even if you can create the elementals we’re pretty much in agreement here. It’s more difficult to summon/create/bind an elemental than it is to raise a corpse. There’s also the important point to remember that elementals are sentient entities in their own right where as most undead are mindless husks. It would naturally be more difficult to keep thinking beings under your control than an army of puppets.

I presume you mean sapient?

It’s unclear how sapient the typical elementals such as summoned through the Glyph are. Imps (more powerful ones, anyway) and djinn are sapient, but regular ones might not be – in fact, I think somewhere there’s a reference comparing regular elementals to animals.

More to the point, undead armies like Joko’s have members that are clearly sapient. Joko lost control of his after Turai put him to sleep, but clearly either regained control or took out the pretenders and rebuilt his forces from there after Nightfall. Most necromancers don’t do it, but the more powerful ones can and do create sapient undead.

The greater difficulty with elementalists in raising an army is the point – because they have more difficulty in raising a large army, they have less potential to have a large impact on the world unless they can compensate by being powerful in another way. (Which I will get to.)

Do we have any examples of liches creating sapient undead without an artifact like the Scepter of Orr or simply binding ones who already existed like the Orrian dead? Keep in mind that to do this implies the lich is strong enough to prevent Grenth from claiming the soul. To my knowledge only Zhaitan has been strong enough to drag a soul out of the underworld under his own power.

We can’t say for sure that they didn’t, but there’s no evidence of Joko having such an artifact, or that lich in the Vloxen Excavations dungeon. (Even in Khilbron’s case, I wonder if it was actually the Cataclysm that did the raising, or whether that’s just what the Krytans initially assumed when undead started showing up, but that Khilbron actually did the raising.)

Preventing Grenth from claiming the soul actually seems to be fairly simple. Zhaitan’s power was impressive because it could draw souls back from the Underworld, but the souls of the dead don’t proceed immediately to the Mists, and can linger as ghosts or other spirits for quite some time. This period varies, but if a necromancer is present at the time of someone’s death, or can catch their ghost before they pass into the spirit realm, it seems to be much easier to trap the spirit with the corpse.

Logan is himself a powerful guardian, and he was dedicating all his attention to maintaining that shield to the point he couldn’t attack and needed Rytlock and the group to attack Baelfire. Those lava balls did quite the number on your PC if you got hit by one. I’m also inclined to point out that Palawa Joko was similarly taken down by Turai Ossa despite having an army of undead and his own potent magic to fight with.

Sure, but we still had one person being able to hold it off. The thing that makes this significant is that we’re relying on the post-apotheosis elementalist being able to make up for a smaller army by being significantly more dangerous in person.

Post-apotheosis Baelfire probably is more dangerous in person than any of the liches – but their power derives from the ability to create large armies, and Baelfire’s ability to do so is, at best, untested, and general indications from comparing the army-building ability of elementalists and necromancers suggests that it will be less. So, for the post-apotheosis elementalist to match up to the lich-level necromancer, they need to be able to make up for the reduced army-building capability with increased in-person capability.

And, to put it simply, Baelfire having his primary strength negated by a mortal (very powerful by mortal standards, but mortal nevertheless) guardian, and then picked off by a handful of heroes, suggests that he’s not that much more powerful in person than the liches. Not enough to make up for the size of armies that the powerful necromancers can create.

(It’s also worth noting that we don’t know if what Baelfire did required him to be an elementalist personally to begin with. His aim was to become a god, putting him on the level of the Six. Kormir’s ascension shows that you don’t need to be a primary spellcaster to do this, you just need the right circumstances, so it’s possible that Baelfire tapped into a power source that would have had the same result regardless of his starting profession. But for the sake of discussion, let’s continue assuming that whatever he did is related to being an elementalist.)

It wasn’t just a matter of culture. I’m fairly confident it was stated that Ulgoth ruled through fear. He was the most powerful earth elementalist among the centaur we saw, and it was his power that made the Harathi submit to him. Not their admiration for his closeness to the earth. Ulgoth is depicted as a monster of a ruler.

You can rule through fear by having henchmen that propagate that fear for you. Ulgoth is also clearly powerful for a personal visit to be highly threatening. However, he still only summons one big elemental, and a surrounding storm, that dominates the area of maybe a town center? This does not compare to raising an army.

I’d offer more feats of power by elementalists but the more I think on it the more I notice how few elementalists are given a leading role in Guild Wars stories.

While we have two necromancers (liches, granted, but necromancers nonetheless) that have had extremely important roles, and have had those roles through being powerful necromancers rather than having a society that supports them. We have quite a few powerful elementalists in events, but they tend to only go up to ‘world boss’ scale in impact, not ‘major focus of the story’ levels of impact.

This is, essentially, my basis for ruling that, from what we can observe, necromancers appear to have the potential for the greatest impact – because they’ve had the greatest impact. We could theorise until the proverbial cows come home, but at the bottom line, necromancers have a demonstrated capability to be movers and shakers without needing to have a society supporting them beyond that which they’ve created through necromancy. The capabilities of others to do so remains purely hypothetical.