Guild Wars 2

Tipper.7354:

Look, the Elemental Alignment thing… I can only say so many times that it’s just a perspective for looking at the Elder Dragons and not, in fact, a Canonical Classification that they must adhere to. I like the idea of them aligning to the Elements, I think they kinda fit the molds… you don’t have to agree with me, I’m saying over and over that it’s just a perspective that I like. Any attempt to lay it out factually is doomed from the start because I’m openly acknowledging it’s not a canon thing, so can we agree to disagree on that one?

And what I’ve been saying is that Kralkatorrik fits into your little non-canon classification for air more than Jormag does – or ever will.

Though since this is a lore forum about discussing canon lore, if you’re going to acknowledge “it isn’t canon” that’s the same as saying “I’m wrong” in regards to this forum.

Tipper.7354:

The first and most obvious thing is to establish that the Sylvari are heavily implied to be Mordremoth’s creations.

Actually, they aren’t. There are a million billion threads on this topic by now that I grow tired of it. But I’ll humor you, though didn’t this already get brought up and discussed earlier in this thread. Anyways, there is an interpretation of facts that can potentially point to sylvari being Mordremoth’s minions. But it is far from “heavily implied”.

Tipper.7354:

The Sylvari have only just begun to appear before the awakening of Mordremoth – much like the other Dragons, where their minions mobilised before the Dragon awoke.

This is actually far from true. Only minions from the previous rise woke up before their dragon – and not all of them either. Just a single champion. A “harbinger” if you will. Or a herald. Whatever term you prefer, there is no canon one. And that heralder (Drakkar, the Great Destroyer, Glint) were capable of making more minions. The Pale Tree – the supposed heralder for Mordremoth in this situation – would have to be older than even humanity, but it is in fact not even 250 years old. They do not fit the standard herald situation.

Tipper.7354:

Their immunity to the Dragon Corruption is something not shared by any other life form save for those already corrupted, which suggests a further connection. Risen do not become Branded, Destroyers do not become Icebrood, and Sylvari don’t become any of them. So either they have a completely random and mysterious immunity to Corruption, or else it’s explained by the fact that they are, effectively, already corrupted.

Except for the Forgotten. And it isn’t even shared with other dragon minions.

Go to Crucible of Eternity. Kudu, Kudu’s Monster, and Subject Alpha are all three creatures corrupted by multiple dragon minions. So Risen can become branded, and so forth.

Tipper.7354:

There’s the obvious artwork of plant-based dragons that others have linked in many cases before. Zone Green of the Crucible of Eternity has an obvious plants-and-nature theme, and Mordremoth himself is officially referred to as the Jungle Dragon.

This is the only solid evidence you’ve provided yet. However, just because Mordremoth is plant themed doesn’t mean that a race of sentient plants are tied to him – otherwise we’d be arguing that treants and even Moss Dragons from Cantha are or may be tied to him. Instead, what Crucible of Eternity (Zone Green and Experimental Green Lab) show is the Nightmare Hounds and Summoned Husks having potential ties to Mordremoth – it is, of course, possible that they were brought there by the Inquest to be infused with dragon corruption but haven’t yet (just like we don’t see any deep sea dragon minions there but there is a place for them). But in all honesty, it’s more likely that the Evolved Husk has already had such corruption, and it seems to hold power over the Nightmare Hounds/Husks. But this does not imply sylvari at large are Mordremoth minions – but rather just that the Nightmare is.

Tipper.7354:

We learn in the Personal Story that the Pale Tree came from a seed found deep in the Maguuma Jungle, and there may be others like it.

This is learned well before the Personal Story but that’s besides the point. I do not see how this relates the Pale Tree to Mordremoth, given that location does not beget connection. There are many sentient plants in the Maguuma, as well as elsewhere. They don’t appear in GW2, but beyond treants in GW1 there were Stalkers, Ibolgas, Aloes, and many more in the Maguuma area. See here. A single sentient plant group out of many is far from unique.

Tipper.7354:

If anything, Scarlet Briar is the best evidence. When Cera attempted to look into the Eternal Alchemy, the experiment she underwent was designed to break down barriers in her mind and give her visions of things greater than herself. When she was about to break one last barrier in her mind, the Pale Tree telepathically begged her to stop, but she went on, and encountered the will of Mordremoth. Meaning that the Jungle Dragon’s will was already present in her mind, but hidden and dormant behind a barrier that the Pale Tree knew of, instinctively knew Cera was about to breach, and desperately tried to stop her. That’s pretty unequivocal that the Jungle Dragon had a connection to her mind. And while it’s not in itself solid proof that Mordremoth was able to connect to Cera’s mind specifically because she was Sylvari, the actions of the Pale Tree strongly suggest it was.

While indeed Scarlet is the strongest evidence, arguably, it is still highly speculative.

1. We do not know whom the entity is, be it Mordremoth or not.
2. We do not know that said entity was “always within Scarlet” as many presume – just that it got in her prior to going into the machine.
3. We actually do not know why the Pale Tree begged Scarlet not to carry on. It is possible she (the Pale Tree) is holding a secret, but it doesn’t have to be that she’s a minion of Mordremoth. It can just as easily be that Mordremoth has been constantly attempting to corrupt her because she’s a plant and produces a massive army of plant-beings.
4. The barrier mentioned, it should be noted, is said by Vorpp it be in “us” – meaning that it’s present in more than just sylvari.
5. Given that the vision has not been proven to be unique to sylvari either, though Vorpp implies it holds a connection to the Dream (which it should be noted, is not unique to sylvari – see White Stag), it may be that any non-sylvari who’d enter would be corrupted.

Tipper.7354:

It answers a lot of existing questions without contradicting anything that we know for certain.

I can think of a few:

1. How did the Pale Tree break free from Mordremoth’s enthrallment? Ventari Tablet isn’t an answer – it took an ancient and powerful spell requiring magic already known to be immune to dragon corruption (Forgotten’s magic) to free Glint. It’s magical enthrallment and by all cases, cannot be broken by one’s willpower (since the enthrallment destroys the willpower).
2. Why are sylvari immune, but other dragon minions not?
3. Why don’t sylvari – even the Nightmare Court should the Nightmare be a cause of Mordremoth – hail to the dragon every other few sentences like every proven dragon minion?

Tipper.7354:

Now, it’s established that Dragon Champions are free-willed, capable of rebellion, and can be active while their masters sleep: we need only look at Glint for that.

False. Glint needed to be freed by an external source – an ancient ritual the Forgotten discovered. Glint didn’t break off by her own free will. She was given free will and then broke off. See Arah explorable, Forgotten path.

Dragon corruption removes free will, even from dragon champions. Dragon champions just have more intelligence and more self-decisions. But they still revere their dragon, they’re still fanatically devoted to it. The closest to rebellion a dragon champion that wasn’t freed could obtain is being selfish and focusing on a target related to them and not the best benefit of their dragon (see Captain Whiting in Sea of Sorrows, or the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan letting Trahearne and the PC pass the 8 very powerful guards).

Tipper.7354:

When it grew, away from the influence of Mordremoth, it had true free will – something possessed only by the most powerful Dragon Minions. It’s no drone or mindless soldier, it’s capable of independent thought. The only Dragon Minion we’ve ever seen capable of actively turning against its master was Glint, an established Champion, and the Pale Tree not only possesses the same level of freedom – it was able to pass that free will onto its children, while retaining a connection to them all through the Dream and making itself into a mother-figure.

That’s not how dragon minions work. Distance doesn’t seem to matter for an Elder Dragons’ influence – see the risen showing up all the way in Ascalon, being made there, or Mazdak being corrupted from his grave. And no dragon minion has “true free will” (see above).

Champions are also not capable of giving off its level of self-decision to lower champions. They can create new champions (e.g., Drakkar, a champion of Jormag, corrupting Svanir into a champion of Jormag), but there’s nothing to support champions capable of doing this in massive numbers, and it would mean that – for your theory – that each sylvari is a dragon champion, capable of spreading “corruption” themselves.

Tipper.7354:

There is no doubt that it possesses incredible magical power.

That does not really mean nor support something being a dragon champion. Elder Dragons and their champions are not the only powerful magical beings.

Tipper.7354:

Now, none of that was hypothetical.

Actually, quite a lot of it was – or just misinformed. You assume the entity was Mordremoth (unknown). You assume the Pale Tree’s warnings is unique unto sylvari (unknown). You assume that dragon minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons (false). You assume dragon champions hold free will (false). You assume proximity is important to dragon mental control (false). You assume that dragon champions are created before the Elder Dragon is awakened (false). You assume that the recent birth of a race relates them to the recent rise of the Elder Dragons (unknown).

Tipper.7354:

It can create a limitless army of smaller minions from its own pods, that are connected telepathically to both the Tree and one another via the Dream.

We actually don’t know if it is limitless, but this is actually a point against them being dragon minions. Dragon minions are ALWAYS something else that are twisted. Sylvari, however, are born.

Furthermore, they’re not connected telepathically. To use Killeen’s words from Ghosts of Ascalon:

“It isn’t mind-reading, and we aren’t all connected into one big mass mind.”

But that is what the case is for dragon minions. It’s a hive mind. Sylvari don’t have this. Different situations.

Tipper.7354:

the only being we canonically know to have communicated with and openly served Mordremoth was one of the Pale Tree’s rebellious children.

Speculation still.

Tipper.7354:

Frankly, if it’s not a Dragon Champion, then presumably Mordremoth’s actual Champions are literal Gods, because they’d have to be in order to be more powerful than the Pale Tree.

Not really. I mean, just because the Pale Tree has the capability of birthing a lot of children makes her little more than a broodmother in that regard. And she just happens to be connected to the Dream – which I mentioned, is not unique to sylvari (again: White Stag).

Tipper.7354:

So there we go. You wanted evidence to argue that the Pale Tree was a Champion of Mordremoth. How’s that?

I remain unconvinced. And it certainly isn’t unquestionable, nor does it seem heavily implied.

And in fact, NONE of what you posted was new to me. Like I said, I saw it all a hundred times (that… probably isn’t an exaggeration, sadly).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Players assume – with no concrete evidence I will add, more of just supposition on taking particular pieces of evidence to incorporate more than it may – that sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions. But this holds little to no water currently, since there’s more support against it than for (it’s been so heavily discussed it’s not worth dragging this thread into it too).

Now, whether Scarlet was a champion of Mordremoth specifically is still unknown. But if so, this means that Mordremoth is the only Elder Dragon capable of corrupting sylvari (they’re outright said to be ‘immune’ to corruption by Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan – and by immune I mean that they die when touched by the corruptive energies – for the “sylvari are dragon minions” bit, people tend to use this for an argument for the theory, but it equally (at least) can be used against it given Crucible of Eternity lore). There is reason to believe she was corrupted by Mordremoth – though it’s also possible that Mordremoth was simply talking into her mind, and no corruption was actually taking place (just your typical driving someone mad via telepathy stuff).

There are arguments both for and against Scarlet Briar being a champion of Mordremoth. But it isn’t yet concrete nor clear in either direction.

For one to say “its only a assumption to that Scarlet Briar worked for Mordre and that her whispers were his” (btw, a assumption, by default, means something without evidence), is like saying “its only a assumption person A who we have a camera shot of shooting out of the window with sniper X to the east where person B died to a boat-tail bullet of sniper Xs caliber”, especially if you ever read scarlets journal or the short story explaining explicitly how ommads machine awoke something locked in her.

Tell me where it says that the entity – the being whom was influencing Scarlet – was Mordremoth.

You can’t. Know why? Talk to Braham, Rox, Kasmeer, and Marjory currently in game. They say they’re going to investigate the entity and find out who it was.

The machine destroyed barriers allowing something trying to get at her to actually get at her, but we hold no solid evidence of who that “something” was. Just that it wanted to wake Mordremoth – for whatever, of many, reason.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Secondly, we see the Elder Dragons corrupt with exuding magic – Jormag uses mental persuasions, but it should be noted that Jeff Grubb explicitly stated that each Elder Dragon (and their minions) corrupted differently. Meaning the chances of two Elder Dragons that corrupt via mental persuation is… slim. Kralkatorrik seems to corrupt the physical, Zhaitan focuses on the undead, Primordus focuses on inanimate rocks, and Jormag focuses on the mind. Mordremoth? My bet given all hints – or rather, supposed hints – is that he corrupts plants primarily and that he focuses in poisons (I am of the theory that the toxins of the Tower of Nightmares is Mordremoth-related).

Physically speaking Jormag and Kralkatorrik aren’t that far apart, Jormag covers things in Ice and Kralkatorrik covers things in crystals. Looking at the Sons of Svanir we slowly see them more and more ice covered as we go through the Shiverpeaks. Since we only have a couple of areas for the Branded we only see so much of them, but likely they also become more crystal covered.

Aren’t many pictures on the wiki but Sons seem to progress along the following lines:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Svanir_Shaman
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Veteran_Sons_of_Svanir_Zealot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Havram_Girthbinder
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Svanir_Marauder

A branded human probably shows the initial progress (best of the available images on the wiki) for the branded:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Branded_Human

I’m hoping for a similar progress for Mordy (although since Sons willingly give themselves over so I doubt Mordy’s servants would have a uncorrupted stage). Being slightly vine covered, more and more so until it becomes fully plant. It might have a interesting aesthetic. Although a Primordus style plant corruption probably wouldn’t be too bad.

EDIT: Thank Kalavier :P didn’t see that.

Branded aren’t becoming ice covered… they are turned into crystals.

Korval.3751:

Wanderer.3248:

Korval.3751:

And because Mord can only influence plants

What? That seems unlikely. It’s only called the Jungle Dragon because of its location.

It’s like saying the Orrian dragon can only corrupt Orrians.

I’m only basing this on what has been released on the official GW2 Wiki.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordremoth

Notice the concept art. Notice there’s not a single non-plant creature. The conclusion, for now, is that Mordremoth’s influence is limited to flora and flora beings… like the Sylvari.

None of that concept art (except the dragon itself) has been linked to the dragon.

Including random plant creatures as concept art for Mordremoth is rather deceptive if you ask me. It would be like putting various sea creatures on the page for the DSD.

CureForLiving.5360:

Physically speaking Jormag and Kralkatorrik aren’t that far apart, Jormag covers things in Ice and Kralkatorrik covers things in crystals. Looking at the Sons of Svanir we slowly see them more and more ice covered as we go through the Shiverpeaks. Since we only have a couple of areas for the Branded we only see so much of them, but likely they also become more crystal covered.

Actually, the Branded appear to have their insides converted (first?). If you note on each Branded, they retain their skin, but it’s grayed and torn, and under the torn flesh… crystal.

Icebrood is the opposite – first their hair and skin gets caked in ice, turns to ice, and then their insides turn slowly. Head and hands seem to be affected first for the full insides. The latest corruption state of icebrood we see is the Icebrood Colossus, which is a skeleton in blocks of ice.

Primordus is said to have a similar corruption style to Jormag when and if he corrupts living beings (said that we’ve yet to see such outright, but it’s possible) in which the victim would be covered in rocks and beneath the rocks would slowly turn to lava (basically containment then liquification).

http://i.imgur.com/zdAxxku.png

Why did Scarlet do evil things?!

ROX: “Nobody knows for sure, but the short answer is that SHE WAS DRIVEN MAD BY SOMETHING SHE SAW AND HEARD that nobody else could see or hear. WHATEVER THAT THIS IS, IT’S OUR NEXT TARGET.”

http://i.imgur.com/pcOG5nK.png

“Anything else I should know about Scarlet?

BRHAM: “Unpredictable. Dangerous. She ran around attacking whole regions BECAUSE OF VOICES IN HER HEAD. Once we’re done here, I intend to FIND THOSE VOICES AND SHUT ’EM UP FOR GOOD.”

Several things confirmed.
- Mordremoth is the next target
- Mordremoth corrupts by means of mental telepathy
- Scarlet WAS Mordremoth’s corrupted Agent

Korval.3751:

Several things confirmed.
- Mordremoth is the next target

We still don’t know if the voice in her head was Mordremoth, but okay. Another voice in her head was the Pale Tree, which is a confirmed target in this case.

- Mordremoth corrupts by means of mental telepathy
- Scarlet WAS Mordremoth’s corrupted Agent

Only true if #1 is true, which still is an assumption. We only know that the dragon rose as the drill hit the target. There are still not enough informations around to say for sure that a) sylvari are made by Mordremoth and b) it is the entity that showed her the dark pictures.

Korval.3751:

http://i.imgur.com/zdAxxku.png

Why did Scarlet do evil things?!

ROX: “Nobody knows for sure, but the short answer is that SHE WAS DRIVEN MAD BY SOMETHING SHE SAW AND HEARD that nobody else could see or hear. WHATEVER THAT THIS IS, IT’S OUR NEXT TARGET.”

http://i.imgur.com/pcOG5nK.png

“Anything else I should know about Scarlet?

BRHAM: “Unpredictable. Dangerous. She ran around attacking whole regions BECAUSE OF VOICES IN HER HEAD. Once we’re done here, I intend to FIND THOSE VOICES AND SHUT ’EM UP FOR GOOD.”

Several things confirmed.
- Mordremoth is the next target
- Mordremoth corrupts by means of mental telepathy
- Scarlet WAS Mordremoth’s corrupted Agent

Still doesn’t prove it was Mordremoth. And even if it was Mordremoth, it doesn’t prove she was corrupted.

There’s a big difference between vague hints and proof.

Wanderer.3248:

Still doesn’t prove it was Mordremoth. And even if it was Mordremoth, it doesn’t prove she was corrupted.

Okay.

Let’s try excerpts from Scarlet’s personal journal…

“I wake from nightmares-screaming, confused, and scared. It’s getting wOrse. I’ve decided to talk to a mender. I’ve probably just been working too hard.”

“When the nightmare starts, an entity calls to me. I run-run into a sea of dArkness. But no matter how hard I try to escape, it keeps calling me.”

“I’m trying not to sleep-too scareD to even close my eyes… So scared. Whispers come from the forest all night long, calling me, taunting me, possessing me.”

“Tonight, I saw it. I stared into the abyss, anD it stared back at me. So much power.”

“Control of my world, of myself, is slipping through my hands. And yet, I’m no longer scared.”

“It communicated with me through images of death, destruction, and destiny. I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness.”

What else in Tyria would this be if not an elder dragon. It communicated with Scarlet telepathically. It corrupted her spirit and motivated her to do things she did not want to do. In the beginning of her journal she writes of resistance and being “too scareD to even close my eyes”. She claims the voices are “whispering from the forest all night long, calling me, taunting me, possessing me.” Later her reaction changes to “Control of my world, of myself, is slipping through my hands. And yet, I’m no longer scared.”

There are only three possibilities.

- her running to the “sea of dArkness” is because the deep-sea dragon is calling her
- Mordremoth is the source of whispers “from the forest all night long, calling me, taunting me, possessing me”
- An ancient race capable of powerful telepathy… perhaps the Mursaat

Given that the conclusion cinematic clearly shows the lay line going into the jungle and waking an elder dragon there proves without a doubt that the being communicating with Scarlet is none other than Mordremoth.

Does this mean that Scarlet Briar is Mordremoth’s champion? Consider this. Note how much effort Mordremoth put into ultimately corrupting this sylvari and then molding her to do his will. This leads me to the conclusion, yes. Despite the fact that Scarlet Briar does not fit the mold of what an elder dragon champion within the GW2 universe looks like. For all intents and purposes Scarlet was Mordremoth’s champion.

To quote the scene from Contact, “Occam’s Razor is the scientific principle that, all things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the right one.” I think all of the information presented points to this as the simplest answer.

I don’t really think Sylvari can be minions. I mean, they’re freakin’ playable!

If anything, Sylvari could be Dragon Slayers or something. You know, because they’re immune to corruption. Heck, they even have a Dragon Slaying sword! (Caladbolg) Still pure speculation, though.

Deus Xiphos.7046:

I don’t really think Sylvari can be minions. I mean, they’re freakin’ playable!

If anything, Sylvari could be Dragon Slayers or something. You know, because they’re immune to corruption. Heck, they even have a Dragon Slaying sword! (Caladbolg) Still pure speculation, though.

Sylvari are immune to physical forms of corruption but evidence suggests that they can be mentally corrupted. Before birth the entire race shares a collective *consciousness within the dream that is orchestrated by the Pale Tree. This form of mental telepathy is completely unique to the Sylvari and perhaps no other race – save the Mursaat and, what little we know, the Seers – have such abilities. By this I simply mean, for example, the Mursaat can mentally communicate with their servants as well as throw up mental barriers (e.g. “true sight”) to mask their identities, so it isn’t completely out of the realm of possibilities that the race has the Sylvari like ability to communicate telepathically with one another over vast distances.

But I digress! Back to the Sylvari. So there’s no denying that while their physical forms is powerful — and came in handy in the fight against Zhaitan — Sylvari minds are not as resilient. That Scarlet’s journal shows a clear journey from fear to anxiety and finally to acceptance of such mental corruption conveys the idea that the entire race has the potential for corruption. Will this happen? Unlikely, given Anet has established the race as 1. playable and 2. not a separate enemy faction.

As with all other corruptible beings this is by design. Since the Sylvari are from the Pale Tree, it would then be evident that the Pale Tree itself is either in whole or part some type of champion of Mordemoth that never became active; a sleeper agent so-to-speak that stayed dormant. That dormancy, either by purpose design or neglect, lead to the Sylvari race. Past history has shown that champions can and do rebel against their masters. The Pale Tree and ultimately all Sylvari are susceptible to mental corruption.

All that said I think it’s important to know that this isn’t a simple process of connecting point A to B to C and saying “Ah ha! See the connections?” If you stand back and examine the information collectively you will see what Danny Witwer, from Minority Report, called an “orgy of evidence”. The evidence supports the fundamental idea that Scarlet Briar was a champion of the upcoming elder dragon, Mordremoth.

If in S2 Anet presents lore than changes Scarlet’s relationship to Mordremoth I will of course accept it as cannon. But until that happens I’m sticking with the tons of Scarlet-Mordremoth evidence I’ve seen.

*Edit: sorry about picking “conscientiousness”… wrote the above at 3 in the morning. :P

Eh, I just really wanted to give a simplistic point of view. (Although it’s rather childish, I guess. I’m weird like that)

I’ve read most of the evidence and some of the counter theories too, so I don’t really have stance on anything. Just want to see where ArenaNet will go with this.

Korval.3751:

What else in Tyria would this be if not an elder dragon. It communicated with Scarlet telepathically. It corrupted her spirit and motivated her to do things she did not want to do.

For starters? We see these do just that explicitly:

• The Inquisitor, a mursaat who rips thoughts out of others (and was an ele at that).
• Abaddon, who drove hundreds mad while merely imprisoned.
• Kanaxai, a powerful demon who drove hundreds mad and changed them.
• Dhuum, who drove a Forgotten into insanity from imprisonment and forcibly made him do things he didn’t want to.
• Mesmers and Spirits in general have abilities of telepathy and possession, respectively.

So yeah, plenty of things capable of this beyond Elder Dragons. And it should be noted that each Elder Dragon corrupts differently, and Jormag does the mental corruptions amongst the dragons- so why two that corrupt the same when the others don’t corrupt the same at all?

Korval.3751:

Given that the conclusion cinematic clearly shows the lay line going into the jungle and waking an elder dragon there proves without a doubt that the being communicating with Scarlet is none other than Mordremoth.

Unless, of course, the one who benefited the most from an incomplete plan is not the one who thought the plan. We already have the Inquest interested in wiping the other races so they could pull a mursaat and flee until they sleep and then rule the world (Arah mursaat path).

Korval.3751:

Does this mean that Scarlet Briar is Mordremoth’s champion?

Only if 1) Mordremoth is the entity and 2) Mordremoth somehow found how to bypass sylvari ‘immunity’ to corruption.

Korval.3751:

To quote the scene from Contact, “Occam’s Razor is the scientific principle that, all things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the right one.” I think all of the information presented points to this as the simplest answer.

You know that there is an antecedent to Occam’s Razor that is called “a red herring” right? Often used in literature and especially mystery stories (which season 1 attempted and failed at being) to throw players onto a different track than the actual case, in order to make a plot twist (which would not be new to ArenaNet).

The answer is not always the simplest.

Korval.3751:

Sylvari are immune to physical forms of corruption but evidence suggests that they can be mentally corrupted.

What is said is that they are immune to Dragon corruption. Given the Toxic Alliance, sylvari can very much be twisted physically. And given the Nightmare, they can mentally to. Except when either case is dragon corruption. While specific mentions we’ve gotten is risen and branded it is said for Dragon corruption in general they are ‘immune’ to. This is why we see no icebrood sylvari either – despite Jormag corrupting mentally.

No evidence suggests that they can be corrupted by a Dragon if it is mental because all Dragon corruption is mental (or rather affects the victim mentally). What evidence suggests is that sylvari might lose that ‘immunity’ if they lose their tie to the Dream like Scarlet had. But this is only so if Scarlet truly was twisted by Mordremoth if which we still have insufficient evidence. The other piece of evidence is the source of information on said immunity says “those born of the Pale Tree” but this is pre-release and as such may not consider Malyck or Mordremoth so again, insufficient evidence.

And the mursaat and seers hold no indication of having a pre-birth shared consciousness.

Korval.3751:

As with all other corruptible beings this is by design. Since the Sylvari are from the Pale Tree, it would then be evident that the Pale Tree itself is either in whole or part some type of champion of Mordemoth that never became active; a sleeper agent so-to-speak that stayed dormant.

This logic makes no sense. Based on corruptible beings by design? Okay then. That means Smodur, Jennah, Flax, and Knut are all dragon champions too.

And Dragon minions cannot be sleeper agents. It goes against the entire concept of what a Dragon minion is – a being that has been mentally enslaved and made fanatical in serving a certain Dragon.

Korval.3751:

Past history has shown that champions can and do rebel against their masters.

Wrong again. Glint only was capable of rebelling because, and only because, she was given free will again by an ancient Forgotten ritual. Without such, she could never even consider the possibility of rebelling.

Korval.3751:

If you stand back and examine the information collectively you will see what Danny Witwer, from Minority Report, called an “orgy of evidence”.

And yet I can refute, with evidence, each and every piece of your “evidence”. Because you hold nothing concrete. Just possibilities, some of which are false or misunderstandings!

Konig, the problem is that you’re using things that aren’t evidence to disprove arguments. Saying that Glint could not have rebelled without the Ritual… where’s the proof of that? Where’s anything to say that’s true? The only concrete thing we have is that a Dragon Champion did rebel. With outside help, sure, but we have no qualifiers for anything else. The only concrete evidence we have is that it can happen, there is nothing that proves it requires help – and beyond that, the Pale Tree did have help anyway, just of a different sort. You cannot claim that Champion rebellion is impossible because there is no possible way you can know this.

Likewise, on the Sylvari’s resistance to corruption: All we know is that they are immune to all forms of Dragon Corruption seen thus far. The fact that we don’t know what Mordremoth is capable of is literally the whole point of this. There is only one form of life that has shown immunity to Dragon Corruption: Life forms that are already corrupted. Shattered don’t become Risen any more than Destroyers become Icebrood. Now, we’re saying that maybe the reason the Sylvari don’t become corrupted is because they’re already effectively corrupted. You don’t have to agree, but you also cannot possibly have evidence that disproves it. You might even have another theory! But you have no way at all of knowing the Sylvari-Mordremoth connection is false.

You’re dismissing everyone else’s arguments without showing a shred of evidence for your reasoning, and mocking the standards of other people’s theories while having no standards at all for your own.
If you can show something concrete that says The Sylvari Are Absolutely Not Mordremoth’s Minions then please, link it. Be direct, blunt, simple, and prove everyone wrong. If you can’t, then for the love of God, stop being so toxic.

Tipper.7354:

Konig, the problem is that you’re using things that aren’t evidence to disprove arguments. Saying that Glint could not have rebelled without the Ritual… where’s the proof of that? Where’s anything to say that’s true? The only concrete thing we have is that a Dragon Champion did rebel. With outside help, sure, but we have no qualifiers for anything else. The only concrete evidence we have is that it can happen, there is nothing that proves it requires help – and beyond that, the Pale Tree did have help anyway, just of a different sort. You cannot claim that Champion rebellion is impossible because there is no possible way you can know this.

The very nature of Dragon minions not having free will proves my point in this. From here :

Warden Illyra: Glint was a champion of the Elder Dragon Kralkatorrik, but somehow she shook off his yoke.

Warden Illyra: Yes. Yes! Look at these runes. The Forgotten were able to remove Kralkatorrik’s control over Glint.
Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.

And on dragon’s corruption in general, from here :

That’s what makes Jormag different. Other dragons corrupt creatures in order to enslave them, but Jormag entices victims with promises of power before they’re corrupted."

There are thousands is minor dialogues which tell about how corruption is irreversible, changes one mentally, and removes free will. Both to minor and major minions. These are just the biggest two that I can think of.

So yeah, I think this is proof that they cannot break free. And in fact, Glint had two things helping her break free. Not only did she need free will, but the ability to sense those she killer’s pain as she killed them. Without the later, she may have kept serving Kralkatorrik but willingly for all we know.

Tipper.7354:

Likewise, on the Sylvari’s resistance to corruption: All we know is that they are immune to all forms of Dragon Corruption seen thus far. The fact that we don’t know what Mordremoth is capable of is literally the whole point of this. There is only one form of life that has shown immunity to Dragon Corruption: Life forms that are already corrupted. Shattered don’t become Risen any more than Destroyers become Icebrood. Now, we’re saying that maybe the reason the Sylvari don’t become corrupted is because they’re already effectively corrupted. You don’t have to agree, but you also cannot possibly have evidence that disproves it. You might even have another theory! But you have no way at all of knowing the Sylvari-Mordremoth connection is false.

BUT NO WHERE IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT DRAGON MINIONS ARE IMMUNE TO CORRUPTION. As I said before. SYLVARI ARE THE ONE AND ONLY LIVING BEING IMMUNE TO CORRUPTION THAT WE KNOW OF. Maybe this time you’ll listen – or rather read it – and if you think otherwise, can you provide evidence? Furthermore, we see dragon minions that have been corrupted by multiple Dragon energies in Crucible of Eternity showing that it is possible, that they don’t just die – the question is more about “would they?” and not “can they?”

And “we don’t know what Mordremoth is capable of” is not enough to say “the evidence makes it obvious that the most likely situation is that sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions”.

Tipper.7354:

You’re dismissing everyone else’s arguments without showing a shred of evidence for your reasoning, and mocking the standards of other people’s theories while having no standards at all for your own.

You need to scroll your kittening screen up then because after your three large posts I gave a three post response debunking or reducing each point you made.

Tipper.7354:

If you can show something concrete that says The Sylvari Are Absolutely Not Mordremoth’s Minions then please, link it. Be direct, blunt, simple, and prove everyone wrong. If you can’t, then for the love of God, stop being so toxic.

I can, and did, show that the sylvari are most likely not minions. But you ignored it. GG, keep being an kitten.

No one can definitely prove for or against until we see what his minions look like. But you guys are saying that it is most likely. I have countered each argument you’ve thrown. And what I get back in return is an ignoration of my counter arguments.

The least you can do is not be an kitten and call me toxic for countering your arguments when you don’t even bother trying to refute my counters! It is downright insulting to be ignored and have you guys repeating the same kitten thing – and even more insulting when you respond to others!

No, we are having theories here, and you’re saying everyone else is wrong and you are right. But since we’re talking about a hypothetical situation, you cannot be right. None of us can.

Here’s the three things that we do know, and the only things we know.

- The Sylvari are a very new race that are unlike anything seen in Tyria before, and their origins and nature are a mystery even to them.
- The Pale Tree is a unique being of immense power, but while its geographical origins are known, literally nothing else is.
- Mordremoth is a complete unknown as to the style and nature of his minions, corruption, and personal power.

We. Don’t. Know. Anything. Else.

However! There is ample material with which we can draw strings from one point to the other. That, which it’s sadly clear you don’t grasp, is the point of the discussion and conversation. And many people are doing so, using plenty of the available sources.

The main basis of most of your arguments is comparing to other things in Tyria. Different trees compared to the Pale Tree. Different Champions compared to other Champions. But none of that is remotely relevant. What you’re doing is saying that a different character, in a different plotline, under different circumstances, was probably different to something we don’t know anything about yet. What, do you want a prize for that brilliant observation? Of course we don’t know yet. Nobody is saying what is, or what will be. We are making up theories.

You, on the other hand, are attacking other people by saying their evidence is not good enough, when there is no existing standard for “Good Enough.” You’re making irrelevant comparisons which fail to address any relevant points. You’re taking a hypothetical situation where we cannot possibly know what is right, and telling others that they are wrong, and you have no evidence to back that up.
You can’t prove others wrong without you being proven right. And you are not right. You can’t be. Nobody can – and I am aware this includes me. But instead of attacking others whose theories are different to mine, I’m trying to have a civil conversation about this topic.

It’s a conversation about theories and hypotheticals, and you’re trying to make it about who’s right and who’s wrong. And it’s obnoxious. Either enjoy the conversation for what it is, or let the rest of us enjoy it, but for the love of God stop attacking everyone who doesn’t agree with you.

That isn’t what I said at all. What I was saying is “your ‘evidence’ is not as strong as you claim, and in some cases it is false and here is why <insert reason>, if you have evidence against it, please share. And no it is not ‘pretty convincing’ as you claim.”

And you have not bothered to rebuttle my counter arguments, just call me out on myself. Which is as good as admitting you have no rebuttle and akcknowledge that you hold no support as strong as you claim for your theory.

Phone battery dying so I’ll respond to the rest later. Perhaps by then you’ll actually have a rebuttle for me and not just more insults.

Hi Konig. One of the beautiful things about this game is that you can have your ideas about what’s going on and I have my ideas. Neither of us are wrong because this is fan lore and speculation.

Well, with regards to Glint breaking free of Kralkatorrik’s control, the problem is that we don’t know enough. And I know, seems like I’m flogging the dead horse there, but consider. We don’t actually know how Kralkatorrik’s control works. We don’t know how that control was broken. We don’t know what, exactly, the Forgotten did to free Glint. We don’t know how Glint’s mind worked after being freed. We don’t know if Glint could have been enslaved again. We don’t know if what happened was specific to being Branded, or specific to the Forgotten Ritual, or specific to being Glint herself. So we have literally no idea how, exactly, a Champion can break free under any other circumstances. The only thing that we have solid evidence for is that it can happen, and that in Glint’s case, it did.
What happened with Glint is very interesting, but the only thing it proves is that a Champion can break free of its Master’s influence. The rest is circumstantial evidence at best.

The popular theory with the Pale Tree, as I’ve understood it, was that when Ronan took the tree far from where Mordremoth slept, distance and the Dragon’s slumber weakened its control because it wasn’t exerting direct influence. When the Tree grew, it grew with the teachings of Ventari, and attained empathy along with its natural sentience. Mordremoth’s corruption could not be completely reversed, however, which explains the existence of the Nightmare Court.
Of course there is no evidence, but since we have no idea how the Pale Tree works, or how Mordremoth works, it would be utterly pointless to demand any. That’s just the theory – and it’s the popular theory, I don’t take credit for inventing it.

As for the Sylvari’s immunity to corruption, that’s well-established, and it’s obviously something that no other race has shown, which is why they’re so special. Dragon Minions in general are stated to be hostile to one another – “Elder Dragons appear to be hostile to each other, as their minions will fight another dragon’s minions just as they would fight any living creature.” We’ve never seen a single instance of cross-corruption despite the Dragon Minions swarming Tyria in their tens of thousands. And even if one could, that would sort of shatter the idea that once you’re corrupted, you serve that Dragon for the rest of your existence.
The only thing we’ve seen that even suggests otherwise is the Crucible of Eternity – which is specifically stated to be the site of ridiculously dangerous, utterly insane experiments that go against all logic and have never been done before. In fact, I’d say it’s evidence to support that cross-corruption is not supposed to happen: It took the full might of the Inquest to create exactly two hybrids, those being Kudu’s Monster and Subject Alpha, and both were unstable monstrosities that were too insane to be controlled. If all you had to do to create a hybrid is rub a shard of Corrupted Ice against a Destroyer, the Inquest would’ve figured that out in five minutes in their quarters in Rata Sum, not built an entire Dungeon around it.

In short, dragon minions don’t like each other and are, at the very least, highly resistant to spreading corruption amongst different factions, to the point where the only cases ever seen of a creature with more than one type of corruption was a custom-made Inquest monster that even they deeply regretted making. The only other life form in Tyria that shows resistance to corruption? The Sylvari.

Tipper.7354:

In short, dragon minions don’t like each other and are, at the very least, highly resistant to spreading corruption amongst different factions, to the point where the only cases ever seen of a creature with more than one type of corruption was a custom-made Inquest monster that even they deeply regretted making. The only other life form in Tyria that shows resistance to corruption? The Sylvari.

Which suggests that the Sylvari are already corrupted (or “Branded”). But since they’re guided by the Pale Tree (their “master”) their actions would seem to show that they are not actively working for any elder dragons. They cannot be owned by any of the known elder dragons, but Mordremoth appears to be different.

Korval.3751:

Tipper.7354:

In short, dragon minions don’t like each other and are, at the very least, highly resistant to spreading corruption amongst different factions, to the point where the only cases ever seen of a creature with more than one type of corruption was a custom-made Inquest monster that even they deeply regretted making. The only other life form in Tyria that shows resistance to corruption? The Sylvari.

Which suggests that the Sylvari are already corrupted (or “Branded”). But since they’re guided by the Pale Tree (their “master”) their actions would seem to show that they are not actively working for any elder dragons. They cannot be owned by any of the known elder dragons, but Mordremoth appears to be different.

Well another theory of course goes along the lines that the EDs are a disease and the Sylvari are the cure.

In order of posting:

Tipper.7354:

Here’s the three things that we do know, and the only things we know.

- The Sylvari are a very new race that are unlike anything seen in Tyria before, and their origins and nature are a mystery even to them.
- The Pale Tree is a unique being of immense power, but while its geographical origins are known, literally nothing else is.
- Mordremoth is a complete unknown as to the style and nature of his minions, corruption, and personal power.

We. Don’t. Know. Anything. Else.

I disagree.

• We know that the Dream of Dreams is made of ether and memories (source: A Light in the Darkness, talk to Trahearne after the portal is open but before entering); similarly we know it is not a hive mind (source: Killeen in Ghosts of Ascalon, don’t have exact page but before they leave for Ebonhawke), and a hive mind is what the dragon minions have (source: Jeff Grubb here )
• We know that there is at least one other Pale Tree, ergo not unique (source: Where Life Goes sylvari storyline), that it was guarded by pre-existing plants (source: The Movement of the World ). We also know that there are many sentient and mobile plant creatures in the world.
• We know that Mordremoth’s power deals with soil and most likely vegetation (source: Subject Alpha and Experimental Green Lab).
• We know that sylvari cannot be corrupted by dragon corruption.

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

Tipper.7354:

The main basis of most of your arguments is comparing to other things in Tyria. Different trees compared to the Pale Tree. Different Champions compared to other Champions. But none of that is remotely relevant. What you’re doing is saying that a different character, in a different plotline, under different circumstances, was probably different to something we don’t know anything about yet.

You should read through my posts before insulting me some more.

I am comparing similarly categorized creatures (the individual dragon champions) because they are of the same category (dragon champion) for similarities, and then taking those shared similarities and comparing to the Pale Tree. Which lacks those similarities. As Jeff Grubb said (paraphrasing), the Elder Dragons and their champions are similar, but also different. Find the similarity that spans most of them, and you find the similarity that spans all of them. And I pointed out those similarities – and again, pointed out that the Pale Tree lacked such. Jeff Grubb said such, btw, in both the above linked Guru2 post as given to us players by Stephane Lo Presti, as well as during a twitchtv livestream which can be found still here.

Tipper.7354:

You, on the other hand, are attacking other people by saying their evidence is not good enough, when there is no existing standard for “Good Enough.” You’re making irrelevant comparisons which fail to address any relevant points. You’re taking a hypothetical situation where we cannot possibly know what is right, and telling others that they are wrong, and you have no evidence to back that up.
You can’t prove others wrong without you being proven right. And you are not right. You can’t be. Nobody can – and I am aware this includes me. But instead of attacking others whose theories are different to mine, I’m trying to have a civil conversation about this topic.

Firstly, again, read my posts before you insult me. Because I have provided evidence. Do not say I haven’t when I did. Let me link to you the posts in which I did such. Posts you’ve still ignored. Posts in this thread, at the top of this page (page 2).

You’re the one insulting others.

Secondly, it is possible to prove someone wrong without being proven myself right if I’m not taking (or rather, stating) a stance, but that’s semantics.

Tipper.7354:

It’s a conversation about theories and hypotheticals, and you’re trying to make it about who’s right and who’s wrong. And it’s obnoxious. Either enjoy the conversation for what it is, or let the rest of us enjoy it, but for the love of God stop attacking everyone who doesn’t agree with you.

I’m not attacking others. I’m attacking their theories. Which is what everyone does – except you, you’re just attacking me. Please stop, and read my posts for once, will you?

Korval.3751:

Hi Konig. One of the beautiful things about this game is that you can have your ideas about what’s going on and I have my ideas. Neither of us are wrong because this is fan lore and speculation.

Theories are only such after taking a hypothesis and finding evidence to support it. When a lack of evidence is what’s found, or evidence pointing against the hypothesis is found, one goes back and revises the hypothesis. You, Tipper, and a lot of others are stuck at finding evidence to make it a theory, because the evidence used is countered and you don’t alter the hypothesis to work around the countering of the evidence. Only one person I have seen – Taimas – has attempted this, and made a reasonable and sound explanation for it. That explanation being that the sylvari could be a weapon created in the previous cycle to function akin to dragon minions similar to how the stone dwarves seem to function akin to dragon minions after the Rite of the Great Dwarf.

The thing is, if there’s evidence against a hypothesis, then it can be disproven, without someone else’s take of the evidence being proven. So in that, you’re also rather incorrect. I don’t want to create hostilities but don’t hold the stance of “if you cannot prove yourself right, you cannot prove me wrong” because that is just incorrect.

Tipper.7354:

Well, with regards to Glint breaking free of Kralkatorrik’s control, the problem is that we don’t know enough. And I know, seems like I’m flogging the dead horse there, but consider. We don’t actually know how Kralkatorrik’s control works. We don’t know how that control was broken. We don’t know what, exactly, the Forgotten did to free Glint. We don’t know how Glint’s mind worked after being freed. We don’t know if Glint could have been enslaved again. We don’t know if what happened was specific to being Branded, or specific to the Forgotten Ritual, or specific to being Glint herself. So we have literally no idea how, exactly, a Champion can break free under any other circumstances. The only thing that we have solid evidence for is that it can happen, and that in Glint’s case, it did.

1. We do know how Kralkatorrik’s corruption works. Edge of Destiny details is multiple times (sadly, I’m out of town thus don’t have the books on me to quote for you).
2. We do know what the Forgotten did to free Glint (and as such, how the control was broken – a ritual). We recreate the ritual in Arah Forgotten path to do the same to a Risen Chicken.
3. We do have a glimpse to what Glint’s mind was like after being freed, based on her wording in Edge of Destiny.

The only thing we don’t know is “can Glint be recorrupted” – but the above linked twitchtv livestream I believe brings up Glint’s baby and whether it can be corrupted or not, and their response, if memory serves me right, indicates that Glint couldn’t be but the situation for the baby is unclear. But this doesn’t mean “dragon minions cannot be corrupted by another dragon” but rather holds two possibilities:

• A dragon minion freed by the Forgotten ritual cannot be re-corrupted by any dragon.
• An Elder Dragon cannot “double” corrupt.

Note that I’m not 100% sure on the wording of the livestream though. Listen to it yourself and see what you think.

Tipper.7354:

What happened with Glint is very interesting, but the only thing it proves is that a Champion can break free of its Master’s influence. The rest is circumstantial evidence at best.

You just don’t listen… she had external influence and could only break free because of that. And it isn’t unique to champions – something I forgot to mention to now – but to even mindless grunt of a dragon minion.

And again, only using a ritual powered by the magic that was incorruptible for unknown reasons.

Tipper.7354:

The popular theory with the Pale Tree, as I’ve understood it, was that when Ronan took the tree far from where Mordremoth slept, distance and the Dragon’s slumber weakened its control because it wasn’t exerting direct influence.

Once corrupted, you cannot return. This is something pointblank made throughout the game – from Caledon Forest to Cursed Shore. Only the Forgotten ritual, which was an outright breakthrough, is capable of freeing dragon corruption. Distance holds no relevance, as we see how we have dragon minions far, far away from their master (icebrood in Metrica, risen in Fireheart Rise and Plains of Ashford) but they never regain themselves of the like.

Tipper.7354:

When the Tree grew, it grew with the teachings of Ventari, and attained empathy along with its natural sentience.

A mere tablet cannot undo magical enslavement.

Tipper.7354:

Of course there is no evidence, but since we have no idea how the Pale Tree works, or how Mordremoth works, it would be utterly pointless to demand any. That’s just the theory – and it’s the popular theory, I don’t take credit for inventing it.

Your argument stems off of “we don’t know” – but the sad fact of the matter is that we do know, even if only to a degree. And what we know discredits your “popular theory”.

Tipper.7354:

As for the Sylvari’s immunity to corruption, that’s well-established, and it’s obviously something that no other race has shown, which is why they’re so special. Dragon Minions in general are stated to be hostile to one another – “Elder Dragons appear to be hostile to each other, as their minions will fight another dragon’s minions just as they would fight any living creature.” We’ve never seen a single instance of cross-corruption despite the Dragon Minions swarming Tyria in their tens of thousands. And even if one could, that would sort of shatter the idea that once you’re corrupted, you serve that Dragon for the rest of your existence.

That line comes from an interview with Ree Soesbee in which she says if they stumble upon each other, different kinds of dragon minions (e.g., risen, branded, etc.) will attack one another. But we don’t see cross-corruption because we don’t see them interacting. Except for Crucible of Eternity.

Where there are destroyers, you never see icebrood, branded, or risen. Where there are risen, you never see icebrood, branded, or destroyers. Where there are icebrood, you never see branded, destroyers, or risen. Where there are branded, you never see destroyers, icebrood, or risen. That is why we don’t see it. There is zero evidence to support the claim that dragon minions are immune to corruption of other Elder Dragons.

Tipper.7354:

In fact, I’d say it’s evidence to support that cross-corruption is not supposed to happen: It took the full might of the Inquest to create exactly two hybrids, those being Kudu’s Monster and Subject Alpha, and both were unstable monstrosities that were too insane to be controlled. If all you had to do to create a hybrid is rub a shard of Corrupted Ice against a Destroyer, the Inquest would’ve figured that out in five minutes in their quarters in Rata Sum, not built an entire Dungeon around it.

Kudu’s Monster was actually perfectly stable and controllable. And I don’t see how this is evidence that it isn’t supposed to happen. Nor was the full might of the Inquest needed.

I think a bit more is needed than using a shard of corrupted ice rubbed against a destroyer. After all, contact with physically corrupted things does not corrupt outright – it’s the magic within the corrupted objects or beings that corrupt. We see in Crucible of Eternity that the Inquest are using beams of corrupted energies to create dragon magic – it is likely that is how they made Alpha and Kudu’s Monster (and Kudu when he got transformed – there’s three hybrids, not two).

But just because we only see it in Crucible of Eternity doesn’t mean it cannot happen naturally – just that we haven’t seen it happen naturally yet. At best, it is a case of “it has to be the will of the Elder Dragon to corrupt another dragon minion” – and the Elder Dragons are not stated to be enemies, so why start a fight just because you’re not allied?

However, it should be noted that the point of the Crucible of Eternity wasn’t just simply to make a hybrid of dragon energies. It was to make an army of controllable dragon minions and a perfectly controllable dragon champion – this is what Kudu’s Monster was (and what Subject Alpha was meant to be, but Alpha proved uncontrollable). It wasn’t just to make a hybrid. It was to make a hybrid Kudu could control. And all three things (making a hybrid, making a dragon minion army, and making a champion that can be controlled) cannot be done in Rata Sum or the like.

Tipper.7354:

In short, dragon minions don’t like each other and are, at the very least, highly resistant to spreading corruption amongst different factions, to the point where the only cases ever seen of a creature with more than one type of corruption was a custom-made Inquest monster that even they deeply regretted making. The only other life form in Tyria that shows resistance to corruption? The Sylvari.

It’s got nothing to do with not liking each other. Most dragon minions are outright mindless and will attack ANYTHING that isn’t part of their hive mind on sight.

Also: the Forgotten’s magic has, as I have said about a baker’s dozen times now, resistance to corruption. Possibly the dwarves when turned to stone too, given their constant battle with Primordus. And the Foefire ghosts, given their lack of corruption to the Dragonbrand.

Korval.3751:

Which suggests that the Sylvari are already corrupted (or “Branded”). But since they’re guided by the Pale Tree (their “master”) their actions would seem to show that they are not actively working for any elder dragons. They cannot be owned by any of the known elder dragons, but Mordremoth appears to be different.

1. Or they’re living weapons designed to counter the Elder Dragons (regardless of source).
2. Or the land they live in was steeped in Forgotten magic (we know the Forgotten once lived on the Tarnished Coast).
3. Or it is their connection to the Dream that gives them their ‘immunity’.
4. Or any number of things, really, since we don’t yet know why Forgotten magic was uncorruptable and apparently indestructible to the dragons, nor do we know why Vorpp mentioned the Dream when talking about Scarlet, nor do we know if sylvari can even be corrupted by Mordremoth.

Your (you and Tipper’s) theories are based off of unknowns. My counter arguments are based off of pieces of evidence and statements by developers.

Apologies for the multiple posts, but that dang character limit. Anyways, Tipper, PLEASE don’t ignore my posts and lead to insult me. Read my posts in full, including the three at the top of this page (page 2) before you reply, because I have supplied my evidence, if not by link then by direction, before and now.

Tipper.7354:

Konig, the problem is that you’re using things that aren’t evidence to disprove arguments.

This is nothing more than an argument from ignorance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

You are shifting the burden of proof. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

We could just as easily claim Humans are dragon minions.

If you want to claim the Sylvari are dragon minions, provide some actual evidence.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Korval.3751:

Hi Konig. One of the beautiful things about this game is that you can have your ideas about what’s going on and I have my ideas. Neither of us are wrong because this is fan lore and speculation.

Theories are only such after taking a hypothesis and finding evidence to support it. When a lack of evidence is what’s found, or evidence pointing against the hypothesis is found, one goes back and revises the hypothesis. You, Tipper, and a lot of others are stuck at finding evidence to make it a theory, because the evidence used is countered and you don’t alter the hypothesis to work around the countering of the evidence.

“Theories are only such after taking a hypothesis and finding evidence to support it. "

You can’t be serious. Did you even read my posts? I count six posts where I specifically reference lore evidence and then develop my hypothesis from that evidence.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Question-about-Elder-Dragon-Champions/first#post4084687
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Question-about-Elder-Dragon-Champions/first#post4088618
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Question-about-Elder-Dragon-Champions/first#post4089201
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Question-about-Elder-Dragon-Champions/page/2#post4101393
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Question-about-Elder-Dragon-Champions/page/2#post4107633
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Question-about-Elder-Dragon-Champions/page/2#post4107806

Why do you say I’m wrong by using circumstantial evidence? What you’re doing is saying “A + B = C therefore A cannot be C.” The problem is – and Tipper made this point crystal clear in earlier posts – the evidence for Mordremoth, the Sylvari and Scarlet is simply lacking. All we can do is speculate. Our theory-crafting and speculation is “B”. Since “B” is an unknown variable, even if based on what little evidence we have, doesn’t make a hypothesis right or wrong. It simply makes it possible.

What you’re doing is simply coming out and shooting down EVERY SINGLE theory I’m posting… even if my theory is based on legitimate evidence.

Case in point, Scarlet’s journals provide a wealth of evidence into what happened to Scarlet. Braham and Rox confirm this by mentioning the voices in Scarlet’s mind. If Scarlet – a Sylvari – CANNOT be corrupted by dragon magic, but her journal shows she was mentally corrupted, then A (Scarlet) + B = C (mental corruption).

The “B” in the above equation is the variable. Is the “B” Mordremoth? Is “B” some other entity (perhaps the Mursaat)? Does “B” tell us something about how Mordremoth corrupts? What I did was look at the available evidence. For me the defining evidence was the end of the S1 cinematic. It shows the lay line being fractured in Lion’s Arch, then travelling specifically into the jungle and specifically to Mordremoth. Why that Elder Dragon? Why not Primordus or Kralkatorrik? I find it difficult to conclude that if Scarlet was trying to kill Mordremoth why would she do something that would cause it to wake? Where the voices in Scarlet’s mind ultimately Mordremoths? Did she target those specific lay lines in LA because they are the lanes that lead directly to Mordremoth? In all these questions “B” is the unanswered unknown. “B” is where our theory-crafting lives. For this reason alone we are neither right nor wrong. It’s just for fun!

Please don’t focus on a single sentence. Go read the whole post, or at least individual response.

Yes, you found evidence. But that evidence in turn got weakened or outright debunked (such as Glint as an example) by posts of mine or others, and the only response I saw to mine was “well, you can’t prove that you’re right, therefore I’m not wrong.” Which isn’t a proper argument.

You said that “the evidence for Mordremoth, the Sylvari and Scarlet is simply lacking” – but yet I countered each argument of yours, and recieved no rebuttle except for the lack of sylvari being known previously which was just what I said above – you saying “you cannot prove that they weren’t around, so therefore it is possible.” Sure, but by that argument, I can make it just as possible that:

1. Balthazar and Grenth are half-brothers, with Dwayna as a shared mother.
2. Grenth is out to kill/usurp all the gods.
3. Grenth and Menzies is the same individual.

I can go about this by stating that both Balthazar and Grenth are known to have a parent and Balthazar’s known to have a half-sibling while Grenth was originally a half-god. Grenth usurped Dhuum and is said to have, since he was the son of Dwayna, Grenth gifted the world with death, that they might understand there were consequences to their actions. Furthermore, when Abaddon was killed in Nightfall, Olias says that Grenth will not make the mistake that the other gods did. We will not hear from Abaddon again in this lifetime… or the next.

Grenth and Menzies being the same derives from this interest in wiping out the gods. Both Grenth and Menzies share qualities of darkness and destruction, as well as holding reign over Nightmares (certain Nightmares are native to the Underworld, and the Shadow Army is comprised of Nightmares); and if Menzies were to be a split personality of Grenth, then Grenth would be mad. Grenth being a half-god and half-brother to Balthazar comprises of Dwayna being the shared parent, with Balthazar’s father being killed by unknown means and reasons, and why Dwayna – thus a widow – turned to Malchor for comfort (her love being dead, she found a new love).

Grenth allying with Abaddon and Dhuum under the guise of Menzies, while trying to overthrow his half-brother Balthazar, was part of further overthrowing the gods.

This all cannot be refuted, there is no evidence to counter it. Thus it is just as strong (or rather, flimsy, because all of this relies on hypotheticals, just like the “sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions” and “Mordremoth corrupted Scarlet” theories) argument as your own theory. But the thing is that there is evidence to counter the evidence for the theories you’ve presented. And I presented these pieces of evidence – as well as new hypotheticals – and you’ve only responded to the new hypotheticals, not the countering evidence. Just like Tipper.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Please don’t focus on a single sentence. Go read the whole post, or at least individual response.

Yes, you found evidence. But that evidence in turn got weakened or outright debunked (such as Glint as an example).

" In all these questions “B” is the unanswered unknown. “B” is where our theory-crafting lives. For this reason alone we are neither right nor wrong."

Since you’re obviously not getting the point I am going to stop responding to your posts. If you want to continue to debunk my theories with your theories then that’s cool, but I don’t want to play this game anymore. The bottom line is you have your point of view and you are passionate about it. Me too. Let’s just agree on that.

Edited previous post to elaborate what I meant.

And Korval, I have been countering your theories with evidence, not theories (and, as mentioned in edited post above, hypotheticals just like you support your theory with hypotheticals).

Honestly, it sounds like you are the one not listening – or “getting the point.”

I have not focused on “B” (whom the entity is) but rather your support for “A” and “C”. Because we just don’t know whom B is. But I won’t repeat my arguments again.

I can focus on whom B is. But I did that a long time ago elsewhere, and the bottom line was “we have no kittening clue.” It could be Dhuum. It could be Mordremoth. It could be a powerful demon unknown to us. It could be Lazarus. It could be Inquest. All are possibilities – strong possibilities at that. But we have no clue. No indication. Nothing to really say what’s what. Because we don’t know an incling of what Scarlet’s true intention was – or what the entity’s intention is. We have to little to argue such.

So I have focused on the pretense of sylvari being corruptable, and sylvari being dragon minions from birth. Never on who the entity is. Never on whether or not Scarlet was corrupted (because that in itself relies on sylvari being corruptable). Your previous post was not the argument I had focused on in your prior posts.

Honestly, it feels like there are five different discussions going on. The one Tipper is having, the one I’m having, the one you’re having, the insults Tipper throws at me, and you defending the wrong logical deduction you made against me (wrong as in, not the one I’m talking about).

There’s a lot to be said about a guy when I can tell him that “Right and Wrong are irrelevant in a conversation about hypothetical theories” and that, on that basis, “He is not right”, and he proceeds to spend an hour screaming that I’ve insulted him. Because really, that’s it – I never said you were outright wrong, I never questioned your intelligence, I just said you are not right and apparently that’s an unforgivable insult to you. Because honestly, I’m not sure at what other point I’ve said anything that could be taken as an insult.

The only advice I can give you, Konig, is the old saying that “When everyone except you is wrong, maybe you’ve got it backwards.” But I’m sure you’ll either declare this an insult, or… how did you put it? “Saying that on the internet is admitting you’re wrong!”

On that basis, I’ll make it simple. You don’t know how to debate or have a civil conversation, and you don’t want to discuss the topic at hand – you want to win an argument when you’re the only one having one. Frankly, Korval’s said the smartest thing yet. If you wanna believe you’re right, good for you, but I’m done with this conversation. You’re either trolling or having a tantrum, and either way you’re still not right, and it’s not worth the effort.

You are clearly not interested in an actual discussion if all you took from my latest posts was “an hour screaming that I’ve insulted him” since that was only a minor point. And you don’t even seem to get why I was insulted – the insult wasn’t in saying I wasn’t right. It was in claiming I provided no evidence, that I was calling everyone wrong, and doing so without backing myself up. That was the insult, and I thought I made it pretty clear.

Since you, once again, ignored all the evidence I provided and continue to detract this discussion to be about me and not my argument, I feel that there is nothing to be gained from further discussion with you. If you demand I provide evidence and then ignore the fact I provided it, then the only one at fault here is you.

And for the record, only you have really called me wrong. Wanderer called you wrong, and Korval merely said that he can’t be wrong since it is based on postulations (effectively).

And lastly, I have been trying to discuss the topic at hand. Every post or group of posts of mine discusses the topic sans this one and one before when I didn’t have time to respond in full. You on the other hand, have only discussed me and how I debated, ignoring my actual argument over the topic.

Tipper, I don’t see how you can call it a “conversation” if you take umbrage at every counter argument.

You argue that anything hypothetical is possible, but you insist that you are right, and that there is no room for doubt.

You seem to argue that the lack of evidence against something is evidence for that thing. Several of your arguments exclude any middle ground. You posit alternatives that are nothing but straw men.

If you want to post wild speculation without criticism, make a blog.

Quite frankly, you are beginning to sound like the stereotypical internet fringe theorist, decrying the “establishment” for suppressing his ideas. Turing this into an attack on Konig is hardly helping your case, when most of what he is doing is pointing out simple facts.

Having scanned both sides of the argument it seems the agreement here is that we don’t know.

Korval.3751:

“Theories are only such after taking a hypothesis and finding evidence to support it. "

You can’t be serious. Did you even read my posts? I count six posts where I specifically reference lore evidence and then develop my hypothesis from that evidence.

No, what you have done is made an observation, based a theory on it, and then failed to test it against other known facts. The failure to test it is a fundamental omission.

And when people do compare your hypothesis to other known facts, and find that there are gaps in your theory, you don’t discard the theory, you just support it with more and wilder theories.

Google the phrase “turtles all the way down”. That is what you are building.

Tipper.7354:

Exactly. And the Elemental themes of the Elder Dragons aren’t exactly subtle in the cases of Primordius, Kralkatorrik, Jormag and the Deep Sea Dragon. So if they do fit Fire, Earth, Air and Water, and Zhaitan is Death – which again, is pretty much canon – then having Mordremoth be “Life” rather than “Plants” does seem logical.

And from there, it’s all up to your own interpretation!

Zhaitan having primacy over Death is an interesting insight. However, death is the governance of Grenth and before that Dhuum etc…

A better analogue would be Zhaitan has primacy over flesh. He can animate them but he has no control over their spirit. Continuing in your analogues, I would have Mordremoth having primacy over plant material, as in the concept of fauna and flora. Zhaitan can control fauna (flesh) and Mordremoth can control flora (plant material).

Zhaitan actually does seem to have control over spirits. Risen Wraiths seem to primarily be spectral, then there is the two confirmed cases of Zhaitan forcing souls into his Risen (and one confirmed case of him not), indicating that he can control spirits (or rather, imprison perhaps?) but doesn’t do so for all.

I would rather put Zhaitan as “Undeath” if one must go towards death/life ideal. But I think the most accurate would be “decay” as everything he and his minions corrupt decay, and everything the corruption touches but doesn’t corrupt becomes sickened (a result of decay, or more accurately, disease). Though it is interesting that all of his minions that preach of something other than Zhaitan, preach of immortality and reunions with loved ones through undeath (which would probably fit more with “life” than either death or undeath – and undeath can be viewed as bringing life into decayed flesh).

Avariz.8241:

Mordremoth can control flora (plant material).

I think it’s worth pointing out again that there’s no actual in game evidence to support this conjecture. I wouldn’t be too surprised to see animal or inanimate minions of Mordremoth.

Avariz.8241:

Zhaitan having primacy over Death is an interesting insight. However, death is the governance of Grenth and before that Dhuum etc…

Well as we don’t truly know the nature of the gods it’s either they have unlimited power over their particular domain, or they’re just exceptionally powerful within a specific domain.
I lean toward the second interpretation. So Grenth and previously Dhuum can exert a high level of control over death, to a godly extent even, but they are not omnipotent in the realm of death. Thus Zhaitan can also exert massive control over death and the realm of the dead (maybe to a lesser extent than Grenth) while still having a very clear dichotomy between him and Grenth.

CureForLiving.5360:

Avariz.8241:

Zhaitan having primacy over Death is an interesting insight. However, death is the governance of Grenth and before that Dhuum etc…

Well as we don’t truly know the nature of the gods it’s either they have unlimited power over their particular domain, or they’re just exceptionally powerful within a specific domain.
I lean toward the second interpretation. So Grenth and previously Dhuum can exert a high level of control over death, to a godly extent even, but they are not omnipotent in the realm of death. Thus Zhaitan can also exert massive control over death and the realm of the dead (maybe to a lesser extent than Grenth) while still having a very clear dichotomy between him and Grenth.

In regard to Zhaitan having same or similar control on death as Grenth, there is evidence that Zhaitan can usurp Grenth power. As a matter of fact Zhaitan does has the ability to usurp powers of all the six gods and their respective devine manifestations on Tyria. Temples and idols of the six gods on Orr individually manifest their respective godly power. These godly manifestations were assumed came directly from their respective gods. For example fire storm around statues of Balthazar is known to come from the god hood of Balthazar. However, when Zhaitan took over control of the corpse of the head priest of Balthazar, and through the head priest Zhaitan can usurp that part of the power Balthazar has accorded to the head priest and the main temple, namely the fire storm. This is the same case for all other temples, statues, head priests of the six gods. Therefore, Zhaitan can and do usurp Grenth’s power when Zhaitan took control of Grenth’s temple and head priest.

Christian believe that body and soul are important unlike other religion where the soul can dispense with the body. This Christian believe of body and soul constitute the importance of the Resurrection. This is especially important to Catholicism.

Elder Dragons resurrection and especially Zhaitan’s resurrecting the dead corpses of head priests/priestess of the six gods and through them the manifestation of the devine powers of the six gods would constitute a ‘christian resurrection’ spiritual view point of body and soul.

7 MONTHS AGO… I WAS RIGHT! All of you bashed me for saying the sylvari are servants of Mordremoth. Now who has pie on their face?

I know what the pale tree is. The Pale Tree was suppose to be the Champion of Mordremoth but it became like Glint. All the servants of Mordremoth, namely the Sylvari, are the offspring the Pale Tree spawned not only to protect herself but also fight against Mordremoth. This is why the sylvari cannot be corrupted by other elder dragons. They are essentially owned by Mordremoth.

Korval.3751:

7 MONTHS AGO… I WAS RIGHT! All of you bashed me for saying the sylvari are servants of Mordremoth. Now who has pie on their face?

Probably the person who necro-ed a 7 month old thread just so that he could insult other people and go on a little self-aggrandizing rant.

Really? My post got deleted for stating that the question of the thread – if Scarlet Briar was a Dragon champion – wasn’t answered got deleted when the post two above me that outright insults the respondents of this thread wasn’t?

The responses are not insulting, despite the claim; I read through them and they don’t come off as such to me. And while sylvari are Dragon minions, that doesn’t make Scarlet a champion – just a minion.

Jeez, everyone who made thus “profound revelation” is going into egotistical mode, and ANet apparently supports them when they’re insulting those who disagreed with them. Wtf?

Konig you really should give it a rest and stop replying to Lore posts. It’s not just mine… it’s many others. You should not act like Guild Wars’ self-appointed LoreKeeper.

P.S. This is a message to the Moderator’s, this is neither insulting or being rude. I am simply voicing an observation.