Guild Wars 2

So, and not sure if this has been mentioned or asked. But the Shadow of the Dragon enemy we fought was the exact same one as we fought while in the Dream if you played Sylvari. Since the Dream is a collected consciousness of all the Sylvari then wouldn’t it make sense that a Sylvari would’ve had to have encountered the Shadow of the Dragon for it to appear in the Dream? Could Caithe have encountered it? Is this her secret? Or am I reading too much into this?

The Dream is not a collected consciousness, and is far more than just the sylvari’s memories. It is an actual (meta)physical location we can enter with the Pale Tree’s help, as we can experience in A Light in the Darkness. It is a location made of aether and filled with replicas of sylvari memories, and more. It predates even the Pale Tree and she doesn’t even know much about it. It is no hive mind either, despite common belief, as Killeen in Ghosts of Ascalon outright states (and I think a sylvari would know).

So no, it wouldn’t have required someone to encounter the Shadow of the Dragon outside of the Dream first. Especially since it formed as a representation of Zhaitan (hence why it looks so similar to Tequatl and his other dragon champions) and made physical within the Dream by the Nightmare. Then Mordremoth seems to have brought it into Tyria.

So you think a dragon that was hiding in the ground as a plant and rose from it, as none of zhaitan’s minions do, who is covered in plants even though the other things in the dream like the Asura you see are not made of plants is actually a Zhaitan minion? Even though it uses plant attacks unlike any of zhaitan’s minion’s attacks, summons plant creatures that are not undead creatures, is a zhaitan minion?

LOOL I wonder how much its going to take for you to admit you were wrong about the shadow of the dragon. Look, you don’t have to be so stubborn. We didn’t have a lot of information at the time. Just say you guessed wrong based on the sparse information.

It’s going to be a lot more work doing mental gymnastics to distort facts to support you than just admitting you came to the wrong conclusion.

“Yes. One of the most dangerous…it comes directly from Mordremoth. (sylvari You know it from your Dream.) It draws nearer! If I die…”

Come on man.

Konig, even with your explanation, I still don’t see how it’s impossible for the Shadow of the Dragon to be a memory of what a Sylvari experienced outside of the dream. It is a collection of memories and possible futures and whatnot.

I am with Rukh on this one, to say at this point, that the Shadow of the Dragon is still a representation of Zhaitan, well, I don’t see how that’s possible. The Shadow of the Dragon in this patch IS THE EXACT SAME ONE as in the dream, no differences look wise. To say that the looks are similar to Tequatl is pointless, cause the Pale Tree herself said that this one came directly from Mordremoth and if this one looks the same as the one in the dream, how can you deny it.

Look, I respect you as a lore hound and I respect all your knowledge on this stuff but I think you need to start letting this crusade of yours go maybe :-\ Sorry :-( I still love ya!

Besides, I don’t think anyone at ANet is as passionate about the lore as you are Konig, we all know how ANet views their lore. Malleable.

Wow… So quick to condemn and without even trying to look what Konig might even be talking about first.

The Pale Tree said that the Shadow of the Dragon was representation of an Elder Dragon, and then point blank mentions Zhaitan by name afterwards, at the end of the first part of the Sylvari PS.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Heart_of_Nightmare

<Player name>: If I may ask, Mother—in my dream, I also saw a fierce, horrible dragon. I’ve been told it is my Wyld Hunt to face this monster. Is that true?
Avatar of the Tree: I fear that is is. A Wyld Hunt is a sacred thing, a burden placed by the Dream upon the strongest and the bravest of my children.
Avatar of the Tree: In your Dream, you fought an Elder Dragon face-to-face. Only two of my children have had such a dream. You, and Caithe.
Avatar of the Tree: All sylvari fight the dragon’s servants, the undead, but I believe you will face Zhaitan itself. I also believe you will prevail.
<Player name>: I understand, Mother. Thank you.

So yes, the Pale Tree did believe it was a representation of Zhaitan in the beginning, and judging how the Sylvari players felt their Wyld Hunt was over after killing Zhaitan, she wasn’t completely off her mark either.

Caithe and the PT assumes SoTD is a representation of Zhaitan because during the time in which the prologue takes place; nobody is aware of Mordremoth. Iconic characters are not 100% accurate and still fall victim to error, or can be modified once more lore is produced. It’s like writing a novel, as you go on you go back and update past chapters – adding new elements. This would also further argue Mordremoth’s connection to the Dream if he’s able to draw things from it via the Nightmare.

I don’t get why you guys are giving him a rough time. The way i read his response didn’t seem to say the shadow of the dragon is still a representation of zhaitan. OP was saying that since the dream is a collected conscious then someone must have encountered this dragon before. This is simply not true. At the time the dragon you fight in the tutorial is indeed said to be representing zhaitan hence after the tutorial you’re told to defeat zhaitan bec its what you saw in the dream. We were also told that it was created from nightmare so honestly what he’s saying could indeed be true. Putting 2 and 2 together then its possible for the following:

1- The shadow of the dragon was indeed created by the nightmare during the tutorial
2- Mordy has some control or influence over the nightmare/dream

This can lead to either the way konig put it that Mordy pulled the shadow of the dragon from the dream that was put there by nightmare to represent zhaitan supposedly at the time and create it in our world. The other explanation that I see is that Mordy influences the nightmare so he put his creation which is the shadow of the dragon into the dream during the sylvari tutorial. This was then misinterpretted or more likely we were misguided by the pale tree to think it meant we must defeat zhaitan and she was just hiding the fact she knew about Mordremoth.

Wow, I feel the love in this forum. So, wanna grab the pitchforks and torches before you throw me out with your insults and namecalling?

Rather than insulting me, Ruhk, why don’t you do some research. Let me point out to you why what I said isn’t my supposition, but ArenaNet’s writer’s own work.

Dialogue with Caithe in sylvari tutorial:
“This poison spreads hatred and anger. We must fight it.”
->Who caused this?
“An evil group called the Nightmare Court. They wish to harm the sleepers. Trust me, sapling. All will be made clear to you very soon.”

During the fight:
Caithe: “There! The poison has taken form. Quickly, destroy it while we can!” (when the shadow spawns)
Caithe: “Destroy the nightmare before it takes root.” (when the Shadow is at 50% health)
Caithe: “We will defend the Dream. Be gone, monster.” (when the Shadow is at 25% health)
Caithe: “It is finished. The Dream is safe against this poison, thanks to you. We’ll see each other again in waking world, soon.” (when the Shadow is defeated)

After:
<Character name>: “She and I fought side by side against a poison in the Dream. I saw the shadow of a terrible dragon, and I felt the Dream call upon me to defeat it.”
Mender Serimon: “By the Tree! A Wyld Hunt, so soon? And such a momentous task. To be a Valiant of the Wyld Hunt is a difficult charge. Bear this calling with pride.”

And later on at the end of the first PS chapter:
<Character name>: If I may ask, Mother-in my dream, I also saw a fierce, horrible dragon. I’ve been told it is my Wyld Hunt to face this monster. Is that true?
Avatar of the Tree: I fear that it is. A Wyld Hunt is a sacred thing, a burden placed by the Dream upon the strongest and bravest of my children.
Avatar of the Tree: In your Dream, you fought an Elder Dragon face-to-face. Only two of my children have had such a dream. You, and Caithe.
Avatar of the Tree: All sylvari fight the dragon’s servants, the undead, but I believe you will face Zhaitan itself. I also believe you will prevail.

There was no sparse information – it was pointblank explained. It is the very foundation of the sylvari involvement in taking the fight to Zhaitan in Personal Storyline.

If anyone is wrong, it would be because the writers retconned their own works. Again.

And if you even pay attention to my posts then you’ll know that I’ve been saying that when playing a sylvari it’s constantly stated the two are the same.

So here’s a train of thought for you:

What if it originated as a vision to defeat Zhaitan, and Mordremoth – whom may be the source of nightmare – turned the vision, the Wyld Hunt, into a physical thing?

webtoehobbit.4201:

Konig, even with your explanation, I still don’t see how it’s impossible for the Shadow of the Dragon to be a memory of what a Sylvari experienced outside of the dream. It is a collection of memories and possible futures and whatnot.

I never actually said it was impossible, just that the explanation we are point-blank given says otherwise.

So unless Caithe, Serimon, and the Pale Tree are all liars about things they spent so much time becoming experts on… And nothing says that those three were wrong, in all honesty.

Ronin.7381:

Caithe and the PT assumes SoTD is a representation of Zhaitan because during the time in which the prologue takes place; nobody is aware of Mordremoth.

Caithe doesn’t really presume anything – not in her wording at least.

And it sounds like the Pale Tree was mighty aware of Mordremoth the entire time, given that she knew of Mordremoth before it even awoke as she tells sylvari players in hindsight.

I can see Konig’s explanation as a possible scenario.

Personally I think the Shadow of the Dragon was always Mordremoth’s presence in the Dream (in the current version of the story) and we were misled to think early on that it was Zhaitan (at least that’s the interpretation we are supposed to have now).

What exactly is a Wyld Hunt or a Dream interpretation? We have people in the real world that do that and it’s all nonsense. Obviously Tyria is magical while Earth is not, but Dream interpretations and Wyld Hunts could be incredibly subjective. How does the Dream choose to assign a Wyld Hunt to one sylvari but not another? I don’t think it’s destiny or fate, I think it’s the difference between a person who will panic in a crisis and a person who will act – some people have it and some people don’t, no magic or destiny or fate about it.

Currently I believe Mordremoth has a special link to the Dream (or whatever the Dream is) just like sylvari and the Pale Tree. Normally the Dream is protected by the Pale Tree but the Shadow of the Dragon slipped through her defences and the PC chose to fight it (before you reach the dragon you see several Dreamers listening to Ventari, but the PC is like a Scientologist in the words of Tom Cruise “because a Scientologist… has the ability to create new and better realities, and improve conditions. Being a Scientologist, you look at someone, and you know absolutely that you can help them”). Maybe the Nightmare weakened the Pale Tree so that Mordremoth’s influence could reach into it, but it was Mordremoth all along. Caithe assumed otherwise because of the subjective nature of interpreting Dreams (or when she says Elder Dragon and Zhaitan she is rightfully assuming any sylvari with the ability to take on any Elder Dragon and live is also capable of taking on all of them).

The Pale Tree is much harder to explain. She supposedly knows about Mordremoth and has been purposely keeping us in the dark. If something was trying to corrupt the Dream, she would know about it, so why hasn’t she said anything about it to us? One answer is simply that the writers want it to be a mystery and her telling us would ruin that (it’s frustrating lore though, makes the Pale Tree look like an idiot if she’s withholding information from her allies and not only did she nearly die because of it, it endangered the world leaders at the same time she hosted the summit). The alternative is that the Shadow of the Dragon was a soft retcon – originally Caithe’s and the Pale Tree’s explanations were the correct canon interpretations, it wasn’t Mordremoth but the Dream’s manifestation of Zhaitan’s threat. Honestly we don’t know enough about Mordremoth or the Dream to really figure out exactly what’s going on (Konig’s explanation fits in with the PS events and the current events).

Honestly I wouldn’t be sad if the Pale Tree died at this point. It’s so frustrating that she has been keeping us in the dark for so long about such important things. It’s like she’s been thrown under the bus so the story could have more mystery.

What bugs me is that the Shadow of the Dragon is supposed to be a dream representation of a dragon (take your pick). That’s why Caithe calls it the shadow of a dragon.

So either

(A) this Shadow has come back to life and got out of the dream, Freddy Kruger style, or

(B) the one in the dream was the shadow of a dragon that just happens to be called – wait for it – the Shadow of the Dragon. They could have at least given it a proper name so we don’t have something as lame as a shadow of a shadow.

It turns out that we weren’t even fighting a shadow of an Elder Dragon, it was just a minion, or a shadow of a minion. Either explanation just makes me want to slap someone.

The way I see it, what’s possible is that we were mislead from the start to think that the shadow of the dragon that was in the tutorial was Zhaitan in order for the other races to gain Sylvari trust. Imagine had the Pale Tree told the other races that there’s another Elder Dragon called Mordremoth that is tied to the Sylvari dream somehow and can corrupt them, but no worries, they’ll help us defeat it. Obviously it would be too suspicious of a newly born race to offer help when they themselves are linked to Elder Dragons. I also think that this season of the Living Story will end with a new Dragon World Boss fight having The Shadow of the Dragon become a permanent World Boss like The Shatterer/Tequatl/Claw of Jormag.

I’m not sure – a race that has a special weakness to one dragon is still immune to corruption by the others.

Regarding the Shadow of the Dragon in the Dream – personally, I’ve always regarded the Dream as a realm within (or adjacent to) the Mists. Lore from both games show that events in Tyria, past and possible futures as well as present, can reflect into the Mists – in the case of the Dream, the sylvari have a special connection with it so their experiences reflect onto the Dream more than others. However, the Dream is still, essentially, a large fractal, and thus can also show reflections of things that have yet to be experienced by any sylvari – such as the invasion of Orr in Light in the Darkness. One could argue that the Light in the Darkness scenario was built up from a mix of the knowledge gained by Trahearne and other sylvari in Orr combined with the Dream’s vision for Trahearne’s Wyld Hunt, but this mission did provide new information that, at the time, was unknown to any sylvari and proved critical later in the Personal Story – namely, the presence of something called the Source. That was information the Dream somehow had without coming from a sylvari.

The Shadow in the Dream, then, is, I think, something similar – the Dream had created a reflection of a champion of Mordremoth not because this was something hidden deeply inside the sylvari psyche, but because like the Source, the Dream has some information that comes from non-sylvari sources. At the time, this was interpreted as being a reflection of Zhaitan because the interpretation was filtered through the knowledge the Pale Tree and the sylvari actually had at the time.

Regarding the sylvari PC’s Wyld Hunt – I suspect it may simply be a case of ‘fight the Elder Dragons’. The sylvari PC feels a sense of completion after Zhaitan’s death because after that achievement, the Wyld Hunt had no immediate need for the Pkittenil it was time to aim at the next target.

Wow Konig, if you think that’s people “insulting” you, you might not want to visit any other part of the internet > . > I’m sure you weren’t just playing the victim card to get support, you’re above that.

As for what the tree says, She says "You have fought an Elder Dragon face to face. We know for certain what we fought is not an elder dragon. She never states its a minion of Zhaitan. She states she “believes” you are destined to fight Zhaitan based on you having fought an elder dragon in the dream. Again, not a minion of Zhaitan, an elder dragon. What the Pale Tree “lying” as Konig states? I don’t think she was lying. If it is canon, she’s simply wrong. As she says, she doens’t control The Dream, she’s just its caretaker.

What I think is more likely is that they’ve retconned it in to the control of Mordremoth.

Mordremoth was obviously planned in from the designs of Thaumanova and the Crucible of Eternity, although the details have probably changed. So it may be a minor retcon, but it could have been a planned case of unreliable narrator from the start.

I don’t think there’s been any retcon at all. I’ve been saying for months that the Shadow of the Dragon is a champion of Mordremoth. It’s a draconic source of nightmare inside the Dream, that summons Nightmare Hounds and has a glow similar to the Mordremoth minion Evolved Husk in the Crucible of Eternity. These are all things that point towards Mordremoth.

As an aside, I don’t think it was ever said that the player’s Wyld Hunt is to kill Zhaitan. We’re told that Caithe’s is, and that Trahearne’s is to cleanse Orr, but all the dialogue is worded such that it is possible that the player’s Wyld Hunt is to fight the Elder Dragons in general, not just one specific one. If the Shadow of the Dragon had truly been a representation of the player’s Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan, it would have been a Risen.

Rukh.9287:

Wow Konig, if you think that’s people “insulting” you, you might not want to visit any other part of the internet > . > I’m sure you weren’t just playing the victim card to get support, you’re above that.

If laughing at someone, calling it mental gymnastics, and the like all of which you did is not insulting for you, then you’re unfeeling. It’s got nothing to do with how others act, just how you yourself acted. Just because there are worse people than you out there doesn’t mean you can’t be mean too. And it was particularly infuriating to me since it is obvious you didn’t even bother to look up the tutorial lore when claiming I was wrong about it.

As for what the tree says, She says "You have fought an Elder Dragon face to face. We know for certain what we fought is not an elder dragon. She never states its a minion of Zhaitan. She states she “believes” you are destined to fight Zhaitan based on you having fought an elder dragon in the dream. Again, not a minion of Zhaitan, an elder dragon. What the Pale Tree “lying” as Konig states? I don’t think she was lying. If it is canon, she’s simply wrong. As she says, she doens’t control The Dream, she’s just its caretaker.

She wasn’t saying we fought an Elder Dragon, but a representation of an Elder Dragon (Zhaitan). No one ever said that the Shadow was a minion of Zhaitan but a representation of Zhaitan, that based its looks somewhat off of Zhaitan’s dragons.

And I didn’t say the Pale Tree was lying. I said – sarcastically to be specific – that unless the Pale Tree, Caithe, and Serimon were lying, then knowing the topic of which they speak, thus having no reason to be mistaken, there was some kind of retcon.

Tamias.7059:

As an aside, I don’t think it was ever said that the player’s Wyld Hunt is to kill Zhaitan. We’re told that Caithe’s is, and that Trahearne’s is to cleanse Orr, but all the dialogue is worded such that it is possible that the player’s Wyld Hunt is to fight the Elder Dragons in general, not just one specific one. If the Shadow of the Dragon had truly been a representation of the player’s Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan, it would have been a Risen.

Erm, the Pale Tree explicitly states that the PC will confront Zhaitan. She makes no generalities.

And despite your theory, other than shared textures of plant creatures, other than the Nightmare giving the Shadow form, there was no support or reason to believe it but several NPCs’ words against it. Just because it got retconned in your favor, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a retcon.

Of course by your original reasoning of texture similarities I’m surprised you haven’t gone to say that the charr effigies use Primordus’ power, since it’s fire/heat textures are like the destroyers and Imbued Shaman.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Erm, the Pale Tree explicitly states that the PC will confront Zhaitan. She makes no generalities.

The Pale Tree states that you fought an Elder Dragon in your Dream, and that you will confront Zhaitan. At no point does she say that the Elder Dragon you confronted in your Dream was Zhaitan, nor does she exclude the possibility that it is Mordremoth (which would make sense, since that is the Dragon with the deepest ties to the sylvari race), or even that it is a representation of the Elder Dragons in general (which would also make sense, since it means that the player’s Wyld Hunt does not end until the last Elder Dragon is defeated, i.e. the entire story of Guild Wars 2 concludes).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And despite your theory, other than shared textures of plant creatures, other than the Nightmare giving the Shadow form, there was no support or reason to believe it but several NPCs’ words against it. Just because it got retconned in your favor, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a retcon.

“Other than this evidence you just gave, there is no evidence that what you are saying is correct” is what I got from that.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Of course by your original reasoning of texture similarities I’m surprised you haven’t gone to say that the charr effigies use Primordus’ power, since it’s fire/heat textures are like the destroyers and Imbued Shaman.

Ok, I’ll humour you, why not? I’ll tell you: we know the origin of the charr effigies, and we know the origin of the Destroyers, and since there’s nothing that links either of those. We know the origin of the Shadow of the Dragon (Mordrem), but we don’t know the origins of the husks. So a similarity in appearance is reason enough to consider a link between the two. What other husks are there? There’s the Evolved Husk, which is almost certainly a Mordremoth minon, and the Mordrem Husks, which are almost identical in appearance to the other husks. And that’s just the appearance; there’s several other reasons to believe that the husks are all Mrordrem.

I’m concerned that your attitude in this thread, and your complaints about Season 2 in general, stem from the fact that the direction that the story is taking is looking to disprove several of your pet theories. Your standard for what constitutes evidence is not only too high, but only seems to apply to ideas that you’re not fond of, which leads to, as someone said above, conducting “mental gymnastics” to keep your theories alive. The thing is, you’re such a prominent figure in the lore community that I think it’s possible that it’s having a toxic effect, confusing people and moving the entire consensus away from what ArenaNet are, at this point, pretty clearly trying to lead us towards. tl;dr I think we know more than you think we know.

To be fair to Konig, if it turns out that the killing of Zaitin was not the Wyld Hunt of the Sylvari player then it is inexcusable storytelling. This was given in the dream even before the character was born into the world, it is meant to drive the character’s purpose in life, and if the character doesn’t realize what it is and can’t tell when it is finished then it is no more than an ephemeral visage. Wyld Hunts are meant to be more than that, particularly when it involves the killing of one of the most powerful beings in Tyria in a pivotal moment of world history.

It may be reasonable to say that a Wyld Hunt is extended over time, or that a character gets a new Wyld Hunt, but that should also be at the center of the story and well known to a player character. It should not be secondary to visions given by asura gizmos or even the Pale Tree.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Of course by your original reasoning of texture similarities I’m surprised you haven’t gone to say that the charr effigies use Primordus’ power, since it’s fire/heat textures are like the destroyers and Imbued Shaman.

Charr Effigies were created by Flame Legion who had at one time worshipped Destroyers…..

Them being created from Primordus’s power wouldn’t be surprising(infact I thought they were created from the Destroyers’ power).

webtoehobbit.4201:

So, and not sure if this has been mentioned or asked. But the Shadow of the Dragon enemy we fought was the exact same one as we fought while in the Dream if you played Sylvari. Since the Dream is a collected consciousness of all the Sylvari then wouldn’t it make sense that a Sylvari would’ve had to have encountered the Shadow of the Dragon for it to appear in the Dream? Could Caithe have encountered it? Is this her secret? Or am I reading too much into this?

What we do know about the dream is that it’s a repository of sorts for Sylvari memories, before Sylvari are ‘born’ they spend their time living in the dream learning from these memories (why they can walk and talk immediately after being born). The nature of the wyld hunt is interesting though, since it is partly prophetic (so the dream seem to contain knowledge not necessarily originating from the Sylvari) since we have several examples of it containing events that have not happened yet (such as the Nightmare Courting hunting unicorn or Malyk).
But it is possible (given what we know) that OP might be right since that also falls into what we know about the dream.

Konig, even with your explanation, I still don’t see how it’s impossible for the Shadow of the Dragon to be a memory of what a Sylvari experienced outside of the dream. It is a collection of memories and possible futures and whatnot.

Let’s put it this way then: magic.
Or another way would be: the dream is a not particularly well described or explored concept whose function and inner workings we have little understanding of. Also it’s magical.

Tamias.7059:

I’m concerned that your attitude in this thread, and your complaints about Season 2 in general, stem from the fact that the direction that the story is taking is looking to disprove several of your pet theories.

While from our perspective, the people who are pushing the ‘sylvari are Mordremoth minions’ theory are grossly overstating their case while coming up with threadbare excuses to disregard evidence against their case. Note that this remark may not apply specifically to you – I tend to pay more attention to arguments that are proposed than to who’s presenting them unless they’re being totally obnoxious (and even then, on this avatarless forum there have been a few times I’ve been halfway through a post and thought ‘oh, this is reading like a post from [CENSORED]… actually thinks to look at poster name …oh, look, it IS’) – but it is a tendency I’ve observed, from my point of view.

At this stage, I don’t think there’s anything that conclusively proves or disproves either, but I also think the evidence for the sylvari dragon minion theory remains unconvincing.

Certainly, for all the flak Konig cops about being rude and overbearing at times, I don’t think I’ve ever seen him post something that’s as much of a personal attack as this:

Rukh.9287:

LOOL I wonder how much its going to take for you to admit you were wrong about the shadow of the dragon. Look, you don’t have to be so stubborn. We didn’t have a lot of information at the time. Just say you guessed wrong based on the sparse information.

It’s going to be a lot more work doing mental gymnastics to distort facts to support you than just admitting you came to the wrong conclusion.

Tamias.7059:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And despite your theory, other than shared textures of plant creatures, other than the Nightmare giving the Shadow form, there was no support or reason to believe it but several NPCs’ words against it. Just because it got retconned in your favor, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a retcon.

“Other than this evidence you just gave, there is no evidence that what you are saying is correct” is what I got from that.

Then I worded that poorly, or you misunderstood what I was saying. Let me try again:

Aside from the singular piece of evidence which is based solely off of appearance – something that has very poor standing – there is no further evidence for your previous theory. In other words, you had no strong evidence, and the only thing you had could be used to argue similarities between two other groups that are known not to hold relations (e.g., the in-universe argument of a grawl/charr connection; or how charr effigies and the Imbued Shaman from Fractals uses shared textures – because, you know, they’re on fire).

In short: your theory which you use to base this not being a retcon, was never a very well supported theory.

Tamias.7059:

Ok, I’ll humour you, why not? I’ll tell you: we know the origin of the charr effigies, and we know the origin of the Destroyers, and since there’s nothing that links either of those. We know the origin of the Shadow of the Dragon (Mordrem), but we don’t know the origins of the husks. So a similarity in appearance is reason enough to consider a link between the two. What other husks are there? There’s the Evolved Husk, which is almost certainly a Mordremoth minon, and the Mordrem Husks, which are almost identical in appearance to the other husks. And that’s just the appearance; there’s several other reasons to believe that the husks are all Mrordrem.

Actually, until this update we did not know the origin of the Shadow of the Dragon, per se, but you held that theory of relation to Flametouched Husks because of the shared yellow-glow in a plant body.

You are now arguing the similarity between husks and the Shadow based on current evidence, not the evidence pre-reveal, which is what my point was about.

Furthermore, we technically do not know the origin of Flame Legion effigies aside from “flame legion magic” – now I ask you this: where does Flame Legion magic come from?

Tamias.7059:

I’m concerned that your attitude in this thread, and your complaints about Season 2 in general, stem from the fact that the direction that the story is taking is looking to disprove several of your pet theories. Your standard for what constitutes evidence is not only too high, but only seems to apply to ideas that you’re not fond of, which leads to, as someone said above, conducting “mental gymnastics” to keep your theories alive. The thing is, you’re such a prominent figure in the lore community that I think it’s possible that it’s having a toxic effect, confusing people and moving the entire consensus away from what ArenaNet are, at this point, pretty clearly trying to lead us towards. tl;dr I think we know more than you think we know.

What pet theories, might I ask, are being disproven? Because as I see it – none are, for I have so very few theories anymore. The only theory I’ve had on sylvari/Mordremoth relation is just that the Nightmare is Mordremoth’s doing, and in fact this is being proven more and more as we go on. The theory that sylvari=Mordremoth minions that I’ve been against have, in fact, been slowly becoming less likely – even with Mawdrey – based on what I’ve been seeing.

My attitude is not regarding theories – either those I favor or those that I dislike or those I am neutral for – but instead the quality of the writing itself and the company of ArenaNet as I am seeing it fall from my perspective. My attitude is caused by the poor writing, the obvious retcons, and the overall attitude of ArenaNet itself that I see. And partially caused by posts such as Ruhks – the direct personal assaults on me that make me ashamed of this community and wanting nothing to do with them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tamias.7059:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And despite your theory, other than shared textures of plant creatures, other than the Nightmare giving the Shadow form, there was no support or reason to believe it but several NPCs’ words against it. Just because it got retconned in your favor, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a retcon.

“Other than this evidence you just gave, there is no evidence that what you are saying is correct” is what I got from that.

Then I worded that poorly, or you misunderstood what I was saying. Let me try again:

Aside from the singular piece of evidence which is based solely off of appearance – something that has very poor standing – there is no further evidence for your previous theory. In other words, you had no strong evidence, and the only thing you had could be used to argue similarities between two other groups that are known not to hold relations (e.g., the in-universe argument of a grawl/charr connection; or how charr effigies and the Imbued Shaman from Fractals uses shared textures – because, you know, they’re on fire).

In short: your theory which you use to base this not being a retcon, was never a very well supported theory.

Tamias.7059:

Ok, I’ll humour you, why not? I’ll tell you: we know the origin of the charr effigies, and we know the origin of the Destroyers, and since there’s nothing that links either of those. We know the origin of the Shadow of the Dragon (Mordrem), but we don’t know the origins of the husks. So a similarity in appearance is reason enough to consider a link between the two. What other husks are there? There’s the Evolved Husk, which is almost certainly a Mordremoth minon, and the Mordrem Husks, which are almost identical in appearance to the other husks. And that’s just the appearance; there’s several other reasons to believe that the husks are all Mrordrem.

Actually, until this update we did not know the origin of the Shadow of the Dragon, per se, but you held that theory of relation to Flametouched Husks because of the shared yellow-glow in a plant body.

You are now arguing the similarity between husks and the Shadow based on current evidence, not the evidence pre-reveal, which is what my point was about.

Furthermore, we technically do not know the origin of Flame Legion effigies aside from “flame legion magic” – now I ask you this: where does Flame Legion magic come from?

Last I saw it came from the Destroyers in Eye of the North……

I’d say that Charr tap into Primordus’s power yet control it….. Just as Zhepyrites tap into Glint’s magic which originates from Kralkatorrik and control that…..

They may have needed to preform rituals to keep sane of course……

@König
I still have a personal theory in which a) the story isn’t retconed and b) the sylvari and the nightmare don’t belong to Mordremoth. I still miss why that all happens.

Mordremoth has access to the Dream from what we have seen and likely has been influenced by what he has seen in it…. To only corrupt plant based beings and dogs…..

Flame Legion clearly command Primordus’s corruption or at least did in Eye of the North…….

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Mordremoth has access to the Dream from what we have seen and likely has been influenced by what he has seen in it…. To only corrupt plant based beings and dogs…..

Would love to see some of the evidence of the Mordrem dream connection. All I know about is that the Shadow of the Dragon appears in both. The only other connection is a iffy one which is based around the Sylvari / Nightmare Court == Dragon Minions.

There’s an immense similarity between how the Pale Tree describes Mordremoth corrupting sylvari (through “cracks in the will”) and how the Nightmare Court forcibly turns converts (torturing them until they give in to the Nightmare, thus through cracks in their willpower).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s an immense similarity between how the Pale Tree describes Mordremoth corrupting sylvari (through “cracks in the will”) and how the Nightmare Court forcibly turns converts (torturing them until they give in to the Nightmare, thus through cracks in their willpower).

That may be but how do you explain the fact that the nightmare court still wishes to fight the dragons?

Besides, the two sylvari which might be corrupted are soundless, not nightmare court.

The Nightmare Court’s similarities to Mordrem may be tied to Nightmare Hounds…..

Nightmare Hounds start out as Nightmare Pups and use the Nightmare Hound model instead of the Sylvan Hound model…..

Apparently these Nightmare Pups use the Nightmare Hound model even before being tortured into the Nightmare’s service……

I’m going to assume that the Nightmare Court finds random Mordrem and tortures them into their service with the help of necessary rituals and uses Mordremoth’s corruption to make it easier to torture Sylvari into their schemes…..

The insane Nightmare Courtiers are likely Mordrem converted Sylvari tortured into Faolain’s service(they may have even been born Mordrem) while the saner Nightmare Courtiers are normal Sylvari that joined Faolain and want the Pale Tree to accept reality.

What Faolain is is unknown….. She was corrupted by a darkness at Orr inside the Dream….. Caithe thinks it was the Nightmare…..

I believe that Faolain was corrupted into a Risen yet had her free will restored by the Pale Tree….

If I am right than the Nightmare Court has Normal Sylvari(the sane ones), Toxic Sylvari(Toxic Alliance), Mordrem Sylvari(the insane ones) and 1 Risen Sylvari(the leader)…..

It should be noted, Mickey, that not all Nightmare Hounds start as Nightmare Pups; Nightmare Pups are just Sylvan Pups that got turned to Nightmare – partially, rather. All you can do for the pups is slow the Nightmare’s influence over them. Though tbh, they never made much sense.

Nightmare Courtiers are born as standard Dreamers – sometimes they may awake with the desire to join the Nightmare, but they’re still born Dreamers. They are NOT Mordrem beforehand, and they do not use Mordrem to convert (we see their corruption methods in Twilight Assault story mode, as well as select other locations).

Faolain being a risen makes no sense seeing how sylvari die when touched by most dragon corruption – Mordremoth’s corruption has shown to be unique, and this is said by the Pale Tree to be because his corruption is stronger.

We’ve seen “normal sylvari” become corrupted and they turned into what you seem to be calling “Mordrem sylvari” – mainly, “Tiachern”: in the sylvari personal storyline. If you choose to defend Astorea rather than join him in attempting to bring Ysvelta back once more, he’ll fall to Nightmare and to quote him:

“Let us celebrate our union with fire and blood. We’ll make the Pale Tree gorge herself upon the pain of these dreamers!”

This is from before he turns to the Nightmare:

“She is everything to me. We Dreamed of one another, and when our hands first touched, I knew I existed only to bring her joy.”

“You were both astonishingly brave. You risked your lives, just to help me save Ysvelta. I’m in your debt.”

And this is from the other story option, if you go with him to see Ysvelta and try to convince her (before he comes to the conclusion there is no return from the Nightmare):

“The tablet guides us. It bears wisdom, but encourages each sylvari to decide their own path. It’s not evil, and neither is the Mother Tree. You’ve been deceived.”

And this is before he turned to Nightmare, while pretending to be someone mean:

“Watch out! We’re dangerous folk. Very dangerous, indeed. We are tremendously vicious and cruel. Wouldn’t you say so?”

It becomes plainly clear that the Nightmare is what makes them insane. Especially in Tiachern’s case.

It’s always nice seeing you post here ^^.

Could I ask something ? Does a sylvari know (like really knows) when it has completed it’s Wyld hunt ?

Or is the Wyld hunt more like a hunch ? Like they feel this need to achieve it and once they do, or simply think they did, they feel at peace ? Even if they didn’t actually complete it for real.
For example : let’s say my wyld hunt is to kill Countess Anise. I finally pin her down and kill her. But actually, without me knowing at all, it was only a clone. Would I feel that my wyld hunt still isn’t completed ?

Angel McCoy.1832:

I love hearing your theories. I’ll just toss out a couple thoughts to foster more.

You can enter the Dream with the help of the Pale Tree, but what that means exactly is currently unclear to all but the Pale Tree herself. It’s perhaps more accurate to call it a mystical landscape, though even that doesn’t quite express the truth of it. It’s mystical and magical, beyond any previous experience of Tyrians.

And, sylvari consciousness originates there. It is the sylvari womb, in a metaphorical sense.

You’ll also note that the Pale Tree says “I believe…” in her interpretation of what you saw in your Dream. The Dream does not accurately predict the future, not even when you accept a Wyld Hunt from it. You always have free will, and no Wyld Hunt is guaranteed to succeed.

The Wyld Hunt is a quest, not a definite prediction of what will happen. In most cases, it’s a self-fulfilling prophesy at best. The Pale Tree understands this. Though, in their enthusiasm, sylvari may forget this and assume that the Wyld Hunt equates to their destiny. It’s a matter of individual perspective and of their culture. Sylvari take their Wyld Hunts very seriously, and their first one often becomes central to their sense of identity. Not all sylvari find a Wyld Hunt in their slices of the Dream.

Lastly, I’ll note that the Dream’s pool of knowledge began to form before sylvari were first awakened. If this weren’t true, then the Firstborn would have come into the world extremely innocent and vulnerable. All sylvari draw from the Dream for their knowledge of the world upon awakening, and that’s how they are able to function from the moment they open their eyes for the first time. They don’t download the entire Dream, but rather receive a portion of it, a scoop of it, a slice that makes each sylvari an individual.

It’s interesting to ponder what the Firstborns must have been like when they first awakened, relative to what new sylvari are like now. Sylvari now draw from a much broader and deeper pool of knowledge in the Dream, one would assume. But does that mean they get more knowledge, or just the same size slice of a much bigger pie?

does this mean that all the first born are very similar in terms of the way they think and act? ( because at the time they were in the dream the pool of knowledge was tiny)

Also beyond that do they all have a sort of link to each other ( in the begining we see Caith in the dream) can all first born enter the dream at will?
(maybe they have to prepare themselves first, meditate or something similar)

because if so this may go towards explaining what we see in the dream originally

Just posting to thank you for the contribution on this thread, all posts were an interesting read!

thank you very much for your reply^^ makes me feel all special inside heh

I am trying to figure out Caithe’s secret, hoping perhaps she and the first borns may all share the same secret, and perhaps the ability to enter the dream went along with that (I dont expect an answer to that one just yet)

as well as the meaning of the shadow of the dragon in the dream.
it looks like it emerge’s from the ground in the dream like its is growing there.
do mordremoths minions perhaps share the dream with the pale tree/silvari ? (because as you say there was already a pool of knowledge when the first born where there)

mordy wouldnt have a great understanding of the world around him when he begins to awake because its changed so much but he would have a SMALL understanding of it

( sorry if alot of this has been covered already i dont mean to make you repeat yourself)

really im trying to see what conections i can make to the current living world
because from my view you had this planned all along

Angel McCoy.1832:

saventis.1485:

does this mean that all the first born are very similar in terms of the way they think and act? ( because at the time they were in the dream the pool of knowledge was tiny)

Also beyond that do they all have a sort of link to each other ( in the begining we see Caith in the dream) can all first born enter the dream at will?
(maybe they have to prepare themselves first, meditate or something similar)

because if so this may go towards explaining what we see in the dream originally

The Firstborn were definitely individuals. If nothing else, they were differentiated by the cycle during which they awakened. They weren’t like clones, but did have personalities of their own. Their knowledge of the world may have been more similar to each others’ than two sylvari born today would have, however. That’s an interesting concept to discuss.

The only reason Caithe was able to enter the Dream was because the Pale Tree made it possible. It was not easy for the Pale Tree to do this. She did it on this occasion because it was so important for Caithe to speak with you before you awakened. No sylvari can enter the Dream at will, not without the magical assistance of the Pale Tree.

What parts of what you see in the Dream originally are you hoping to explain?

If I may make an analogy for the dream…

Is it like a giant cauldron of stew? In the beginning it was a fairly simple stew and every sylvari got bowl of it. As time went on new ingredients were added, and maybe a few were purged but leave a taste behind. Newer sylvari still get a bowl, but maybe it has a little more subtlety than before. Every sylvari gets its bowl but each one has a slightly different set of ingredients and tastes just a little different.

Would that be accurate Angel?

saventis.1485:

thank you very much for your reply^^ makes me feel all special inside heh

I am trying to figure out Caithe’s secret, hoping perhaps she and the first borns may all share the same secret, and perhaps the ability to enter the dream went along with that (I dont expect an answer to that one just yet)

as well as the meaning of the shadow of the dragon in the dream.
it looks like it emerge’s from the ground in the dream like its is growing there.
do mordremoths minions perhaps share the dream with the pale tree/silvari ? (because as you say there was already a pool of knowledge when the first born where there)

mordy wouldnt have a great understanding of the world around him when he begins to awake because its changed so much but he would have a SMALL understanding of it

( sorry if alot of this has been covered already i dont mean to make you repeat yourself)

really im trying to see what conections i can make to the current living world
because from my view you had this planned all along

to add a little to my last post perhaps this is why mordys attacks seem more… intelligent than zaihtans,
i dunno i just feel like theres more to the dream than we know
perhaps mordy is the dream, perhaps not.
what is the origin of the dream? does it come from the pale tree or is it something much greater?
i could go on and on with theories but i dont want to bore you all heh

Thank you Angel for the reply ^^.

Would it be a spoiler to tell what Scarlet’s wyld hunt was or is it already in game and I just missed it?

Angel McCoy.1832:

saventis.1485:

thank you very much for your reply^^ makes me feel all special inside heh

I am trying to figure out Caithe’s secret, hoping perhaps she and the first borns may all share the same secret, and perhaps the ability to enter the dream went along with that (I dont expect an answer to that one just yet) as well as the meaning of the shadow of the dragon in the dream.

… (clip) really im trying to see what conections i can make to the current living world because from my view you had this planned all along

I can tell you that Caithe’s secret has nothing to do with how she entered the Dream. Beyond that, it’s all spoiler all the time, and you’d hate me if I told you!

The Shadow of the Dragon is definitely one of Mordremoth’s lieutenants. It is a plant creature and quite evil. When you see it in the Dream, however, you’re seeing some sort of magical reflection of it. You fight it there, but it’s not the actual creature in the Dream. This doesn’t mean it’s any less dangerous there.

The roots of this story were conceived while we were creating the main game, and the lore goes all the way back to Guild Wars 1. So yes, it’s safe to assume that we’ve planned it (mostly) all along.

haha, no way iv been playing since guild wars prophecies (before the expansions)
Id much rather wait till we find out in game, but in saying that i love discussing the lore in this game, its the only game that has really caught my attention in terms of narrative.

hmmmmmmm i think i may have gotten some very valuable information from that.
(if not for the ambiguous wording : P)

So the dragon we see in the dream is a reflection ( this is the word that messes me up)

and Caithe and such can only enter the dream through the pale tree

so either someone has seen the shadow of the dragon before ( perhaps Caithe’s secret)(dont tell me haha)

or mordremoth has the ability to influence the dream…

ohh or going with the pale tree is a cleansed minion of mordy perhaps was originally created by the pale tree

Thanks for answering ! I’m a member of a Sylvari roleplayers guild, and we’re always looking for more informations, those clarifications about the Wyld Hunt are going to be quite useful for us.
I have a silly question about the Dream and the fern hounds, by the way. :’p I guess the answer is no, but do Sylvan Hounds experience the Dream (or a part of it) ? Do they share some sort of empathic bounds with the Sylvari, or are they just like normal dogs ?

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Would it be a spoiler to tell what Scarlet’s wyld hunt was or is it already in game and I just missed it?

I like to think she was meant to come up with a way to destroy mordremoth
and then slowly became more and more corrupted, all the while fighting it to try complete her wyld hunt. (how far did she get? perhaps she left clues because she knew she wasnt going to make it)

perhaps we/the obsessed Taimi will discover her unfinished plans and en-devour to complete them in order to destroy mordy

Angel McCoy.1832:

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Would it be a spoiler to tell what Scarlet’s wyld hunt was or is it already in game and I just missed it?

If she had one, what would you guess it was?

With all the studies she did, it must be more complex like the cleaning of Orr. It can’t be a dragon hunt. With all that knowledge about weapons, synergetics, dynamics, statics, metal, hylek alchemy and finally going into the eternal alchemy for getting a better view I assume she was sent to fight the nightmare.

It’s better to know what you are fighting, but that isn’t easy if it’s even not exacly clear what the dream is. The nightmare is older than the dream, but both are connected somehow.