Guild Wars 2

So the Avatar of the Tree says Scarlet was looking too deep into the mysteries of the world but something was looking back at her. Now my question: Why doesn’t she tell anyone Scarlet is working for/ against something far more sinister than her engineering designs. As far as I know she hasn’t told anyone that Scarlet saw something looking back at her, which implies that there is a much darker enemy behind this than just Scarlet. We, the players obviously know this from her journals but I don’t think anyone else than we know it and we haven’t told anyone, have we? I must admit I didn’t have time to go to her story instance yet but from the pictures I have seen we don’t share our findings with anyone here. And apart from that, the Avatar must have known this for ages, it isnt just a new discovery for her. I think this fact is really important. Nobody has yet thought of dragons in Tyria (not us players) except for this past living story update so Marjory and Kasmeer and everyone could have made use of this fact in their investigation to her motives. It just seems really stupid of the Avatar not to tell it to anyone. I’d like to know if this is a plot-hole or this is intended (avatar of the tree doesnt really want us to fight Scarlet, which I find highly unlikely) or if I am wrong and she has told people. Thanks

The lab is the last thing in the plot we do. I don’t know why we don’t get a chance to bring it up if we talk to the tree before going to the LA instance.

Hopefully it’ll be brought up in the next update and it’s just assumed that no one would go to the Pale Tree until they did all the LW stuff.

I agree Blurk. The Pale Tree clearly knows that the entity exists and probably knows what it is – that is to say, she may not know it by name, but she may well recognize it by “feel”. I am surprised that more effort was not put into incorporating the Pale Tree into this story arc. She should be spear-heading the attempts to shut Ceara down or even redeem her. This lackluster response is just really sad. I feel for the Nightmare Court right now. With an irresponsible mother like the PT, I’d join the Court too.

Maybe not “what it is” but she knows that it’s there and that it’s dangerous.

i think the reason the pale tree isn’t such a big deal in the plot is that ANet doesn’t want to go too sylvari-centric on this story arc. they want to tell the story of scarlet, who is a villain that happens to be sylvari. they don’t want to tell the story of a sylvari villain.

that’s the impression i get at least. make it a bit more race-neutral.

Can someone clear up something for me. All sylvari are supposed to be connected, when a sylvari dies, fragments of their memories go into the dream and I believe the Pale Tree has a connection to sylvari still alive. How much should the Pale Tree know about Scarlet and what she saw? Given how little the Pale Tree has done to aid us in finding/stopping her, I’m guessing the connection doesn’t work like a LoJack, but she apparently knew something about What Scarlet Saw because she appeared to her in her vision (or did she – is it possible Scarlet thought she spoke with the Pale Tree?). If anyone can correct me or clear up some of that I’d be appreciative.

Also, do we know if the knowledge of the dreamers is shared with Malyck’s tree? I would presume not simply because if it did (unless Malyck is the first of his kind) we would have known something about them before now.

As I understand it, the Pale Tree cannot read the minds of Sylvari connected to her. But they do share their experiences, thoughts and memories, which then fill the Dream like water fills a well. The Pale Tree is the only one who can dive into this well, and uncover knowledge of recent events from it. Since Scarlet is blocking out the Pale Tree, she may not be sharing as much with the Dream (or perhaps nothing at all). So the Pale Tree might not know what Scarlet’s plans are. The Pale Tree can also see in the future, but this is no exact science.

What the Pale Tree knows about Scarlet’s vision, is probably based on her connection with Scarlet right up until the moment of the experiment.

Shiren.9532:

Also, do we know if the knowledge of the dreamers is shared with Malyck’s tree? I would presume not simply because if it did (unless Malyck is the first of his kind) we would have known something about them before now.

As far as I know, nothing points to the trees sharing Dreams with each other. Or sharing the same Dream. But that doesn’t exclude the possibility either. Its never explained I think.

Shiren.9532:

All sylvari are supposed to be connected, when a sylvari dies, fragments of their memories go into the dream and I believe the Pale Tree has a connection to sylvari still alive.

When a sylvari dies, it dies. There’s nothing more to it. I don’t know where people get the whole “their memories go to the Dream when they die” because that just isn’t true and has never been hinted upon. What returns to the Dream is strong and emotional memories – and they return to the Dream immediately (more or less), while the sylvari is still alive. As such, because death is so strong, the moment of a sylvari’s death may return – but it isn’t the death itself that triggers the return, but the strong and emotional part of dying.

The Pale Tree doesn’t have a connection directly to the sylvari, per se. She is a caretaker of the Dream, and the sylvari – most of them that is – have an empathetic tie to the Dream. The Pale Tree can use this tie to call them back but it’s not like telepathy or anything. And it wouldn’t work on Nightmare Courtiers – who have become hardened and thus lose their connection to the Dream – or the Soundless – who meditate to remove that empathetic connection.

Shiren.9532:

How much should the Pale Tree know about Scarlet and what she saw? Given how little the Pale Tree has done to aid us in finding/stopping her, I’m guessing the connection doesn’t work like a LoJack, but she apparently knew something about What Scarlet Saw because she appeared to her in her vision (or did she – is it possible Scarlet thought she spoke with the Pale Tree?). If anyone can correct me or clear up some of that I’d be appreciative.

Scarlet, knowingly or not, ended up becoming a Soundless after entering Omadd’s machine. It seems that the vision was the last thing the Pale Tree knows of Scarlet’s activities because Scarlet is cut off.

Shiren.9532:

Also, do we know if the knowledge of the dreamers is shared with Malyck’s tree? I would presume not simply because if it did (unless Malyck is the first of his kind) we would have known something about them before now.

Malyck knew nothing of the Pale Tree or the Grove, or even the Dream of Dreams and Nightmare – this lack of knowledge led the PC in the storyline to assume he lost his memory (he didn’t as proven by Caithe’s path in the storyline). He was never tied to the Dream of Dreams, and Trahearne believes that Malyck’s tree and the Pale Tree simply have different Dream of Dreams (though this is unlikely as the Dream of Dreams is not tied to the Pale Tree alone – see the White Stag).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Pale Tree doesn’t have a connection directly to the sylvari, per se. She is a caretaker of the Dream, and the sylvari – most of them that is – have an empathetic tie to the Dream. The Pale Tree can use this tie to call them back but it’s not like telepathy or anything. And it wouldn’t work on Nightmare Courtiers – who have become hardened and thus lose their connection to the Dream – or the Soundless – who meditate to remove that empathetic connection.

umm, the nightmare court doesn’t lose their connection to the Dream, that would defeat the whole purpose of the nightmare court. they want to add their own memories of pain and suffering to the Dream, so they can’t cut ties. they need to stay connected in order to taint it (or “bring the sylvari to their true nature” as they say). torturing and killing other sylvaris is not as productive as doing that while being still connected to the tree (two memories for the price of one!)

In order to achieve this goal, the Nightmare Court commit acts of evil both upon sylvari and non-sylvari alike. When their own emotions become too jaded to be likely gathered into the tree, they rely on harming and tormenting other sylvari and giving them memories, horrible emotions, and other traumas in the hope that those memories will be sharp enough to be gathered. The more awful their crimes, the more likely it is that the Pale Tree will carry the memory into her well of emotions, passing those inclinations on to her next generation.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dream_and_Nightmare#The_Nightmare_Court

Come on, Bruno. Pay attention to ancient old should-be-well-known lore! :P

That’s rather what I said, actually. Over time they become hardened/jaded and their connection to the Dream is lessened/lost/somethingoranother. Their memories no longer get sent back to the Dream of Dreams to spread the Nightmare, so they must inflict pain on other sylvari. Otherwise one Nightmare Courtier could just continuously spread Nightmare and the entire race would be quickly engulfed.

you? quoting the wiki? :P

and i thought the dream gathered all experiences, both good and bad or where it comes from. the excerpt makes it sound like the tree sits on her free time looking at all the memories and filtering which ones should be brought in and which ones shouldn’t.

the nightmare court is but a fraction of all sylvaris, so the overwhelming non-nightmare memories should be enough to keep the race from engulfing in nightmare, even if the nightmare court’s memories get sent into the dream.

that was always my understanding of it.

I’m quoting an article that’s copied verbatim from an article written by ArenaNet that was featured on their blog until they took said blog down. Everything in Category:Tales are verbatim copies of ArenaNet’s own articles and short stories.

And yes, both good and bad experiences can be sent into the Dream. But as that article explains, it has to be powerful and strong experiences. Stepping on a bug? Won’t be sent back into the Dream. Stubbing your foot? Won’t be sent back into the Deram. Your leg being broken? Probably will be. Seeing a breathtaking vista? Probably will be. Being tortured for the first time? Probably will be. Being tortured for the 10th time in a row? Probably won’t be – you’re used to it by then, it won’t be powerful anymore.

It’s not the Pale Tree that choses what goes through or not, it’s how powerful the emotion behind the experience – good or bad – is. The stronger the emotion, the better chance of it returning to the Dream.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’m quoting an article that’s copied verbatim from an article written by ArenaNet that was featured on their blog until they took said blog down. Everything in Category:Tales are verbatim copies of ArenaNet’s own articles and short stories.

And yes, both good and bad experiences can be sent into the Dream. But as that article explains, it has to be powerful and strong experiences. Stepping on a bug? Won’t be sent back into the Dream. Stubbing your foot? Won’t be sent back into the Deram. Your leg being broken? Probably will be. Seeing a breathtaking vista? Probably will be. Being tortured for the first time? Probably will be. Being tortured for the 10th time in a row? Probably won’t be – you’re used to it by then, it won’t be powerful anymore.

It’s not the Pale Tree that choses what goes through or not, it’s how powerful the emotion behind the experience – good or bad – is. The stronger the emotion, the better chance of it returning to the Dream.

ok, i can get behind “you got too used to it to become a powerful experience”, but that’s different from cutting connections with the tree (which is what the soundless do).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

When a sylvari dies, it dies. There’s nothing more to it. I don’t know where people get the whole “their memories go to the Dream when they die” because that just isn’t true and has never been hinted upon. What returns to the Dream is strong and emotional memories – and they return to the Dream immediately (more or less), while the sylvari is still alive.

I misunderstood the shared memories thing. I thought it only happened when they died, not every time an important memory took place. The lore pieces say mostly the most important memories go into the Dream, but to a new born sylvari, everything is going to be important so I assumed it was kind of like a highlights reel, not a powerful experience that resonates loud enough to make it into the Dream from anywhere in the world.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Scarlet, knowingly or not, ended up becoming a Soundless after entering Omadd’s machine. It seems that the vision was the last thing the Pale Tree knows of Scarlet’s activities because Scarlet is cut off.

I just re-listened to the Wartower interview from Scarlet’s first introduction. They asked about what happens when it comes to Scarlet’s memories going into the Dream. The response was that for the moment, Scarlet is walled off (it remains to be seen if she can keep it that way) but Scott didn’t stop there. He said it opens a dramatic issue they are hoping to explore. “What happens when the next sylvari is born with some of Scarlet’s memories, what Scarlet knows?”. They aren’t straight up done with that plot I guess. Maybe as Scarlet breaks down the Pale Tree will get back inside of her head? Up until she cut herself off we are led to believe Scarlet doesn’t know anything worth speculating about (otherwise the Pale Tree would also know) so what’s there to explore unless more of her memories go into the Dream?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Malyck knew nothing of the Pale Tree or the Grove, or even the Dream of Dreams and Nightmare – this lack of knowledge led the PC in the storyline to assume he lost his memory (he didn’t as proven by Caithe’s path in the storyline). He was never tied to the Dream of Dreams, and Trahearne believes that Malyck’s tree and the Pale Tree simply have different Dream of Dreams (though this is unlikely as the Dream of Dreams is not tied to the Pale Tree alone – see the White Stag).

Doesn’t that just prove non-sylvari can dream too? If the White Stag was from Ascalon I could see it conflicting with Trahearne’s theory, but it was pretty close to the Pale Tree. Maybe Dreamers within the geographical area of the Pale Tree share in its Dream (or maybe the White Stag has a stronger connection to the dream than the average sylvari). I honestly don’t know enough about the White Stag, Malyck or the Dream.

Even if it’s the same Dream, sylvari that wake have a very weakened connection to it. If the Pale Tree is the keeper of the sylvari’s pool of experiences and memories. Is it possible that only sylvari born of the Pale Tree can share in that pool? Maybe they only have access to a portion of the Dream and their link is through the Pale Tree, without the tree you can still dream, it’s just a different Dream.