Guild Wars 2

So, I have a few bits of information missing about this whole Malchor/Grenth/Dwayna relationship I was hoping to have explained. From what I know, Malchor is the sculptor of the god statues and the most likely (although not specifically named, he might as well have been) candidate for the sculptor Dwayna did the twisted tango with to bear Grenth. That bieng said, I know Malchor killed himself not too terribly long after being commissioned to sculpt said statues, unless the task took like 60 years and he just ages exceptionally well. (his ghost looks fairly young). So I have a few questions. Did Grenth become a god before Malchor died? Is Malchor REALLY his father? (Even I am leaning VERY heavily towards yes) and/or did Malchor sculpt Grenth’s statues, or did somebody else? I ask because the times just seem to add up strangely. Malchor and Dwayna do…their thing… Malchor is tasked with making statues, Dwayna has a child (somewhere along this order?) the child kills Dhuum, raises to Godhood, Malchor makes statues completely oblivious that his kid became the god who controls death and is the subject of one of his works (Or he’s REALLY good at never mentioning it. Seems like something I’d brag about until the day I died) and Malchor flings himself off a cliff not looking a day over 28. Now the best explanation for an order like this is, as I mentioned, maybe Malchor does just age really well. I mean, King Doric was supposedly very very old when he used his blood to limit the use of magic, so maybe living well beyond 100 was a slightly more common thing then. Especially in the city of the gods. Either that, or Grenth ascended at a very young age. Like 7. Or maybe, being a ghost, he can pick whatever age he feels like to appear before people? I haven’t heard of anything like that happening before, but I thought I’d throw that out there anyways.

I’m of the thought the god statues were made a good period AFTER grenth became a god.

That’s how it is described above. It’s very unlikely he made the statues beforehand. Or were you stressing the long time part?

I was meaning to stress the “long time” part. They mention a sculptor, but I always took it as somebody else but not Malchor.

I’ll check to see if there was a timeframe given to anything after work.

Given the fact that the inscription on Grenth’s statue has been changed to have been said by Desmina (all other one-liners are from Malchor himself, save for Kormir’s for obvious reasons) about a year after launch, the theory that Malchor’s the father is all the more likely.

“Grenth, Prince of Ice, God of Death. He embodies inevitability, the idea that all things have a time… and that time must inevitably pass.” — Desmina

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Statue_of_Grenth

Just like with Kormir’s statue, I believe Grenth’s was created by a different sculptor in Malchor’s style and imagery. Which means there’s a forgotten Malchor statue of Dhuum somewhere – unless the gods did a better job than with Abaddon’s imagery and indeed wiped all records of the Voice in the Void on Tyria.

Was going to bring up what Thalador said. That ninja fix feels like a fixing of a continuity error (there may have been more, not dissimilar to how in GW1 the Crystal Desert centaurs were given Elonian centaur models, from their original ones that looked much more like the Maguuma and Shiverpeak (now called Harathi and Modniir) models, when Nightfall came out and was never mentioned in update notes).

So chances are is that Grenth’s statue was not made by Malchor – or if it were, it was post mortem, given that ghosts can pick up physical things and he has remained in Orr since death.

It in fact wouldn’t surprise me, given the new direction of the statues of Grenth being much younger and muscular and overall different than the GW1 depictions of an old man in robes, it wouldn’t surprise me that the GW1 depictions will actually be of Dhuum. Since it seems a bit weird for Grenth to age post-godhood given how the others don’t. And it would be weird if he had a statue made while not a god just to become a god much later when he is old and yet have that ‘young Grenth’ statue used throughout Orr.

Gonna add my voice in support to the idea that Grenth was sculpted by someone else.

On the topic of a Dhuum statue, maybe Dhuum was never worshiped at all? Unlike any of the others, even Abaddon, he’s never really mentioned interacting with the gods or with humanity, beyond his ban on resurrections and the undead, and there’s no mention of the other gods having any issue with Grenth usurping him. Considering that, and that all the other gods contributed something to humanity in their early days, acting as their patrons and generally interacting positively with the populace until the Exodus, I wonder if Dhuum had always been seperate from the pantheon.

That is a most interesting possibility, Aaron. One that would shatter one of the core foundations of the conjoined fan-fiction saga that Konig and I’ve been struggling to build for years (lol), but a very intriguing idea nonetheless.

From the top of my mind, the only point with which I could argue against it is that Dhuum was defeated in Orr. Based on the location (the ossuary of the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance) it would seem to me he was lured to a trap by Grenth. If he could assert his unjust rules on Tyria from his tower in the Underworld, I doubt he would’ve needed to walk the land and be led into a possible set-up.

On the other hand, if his influence was felt on Tyria, he had to be represented somehow, e.g. by servants (demonic, ghostly, or mortal… it matters not) preaching about the might of their god. Even if Dhuum had preferred every living being dead, it wouldn’t have stopped the depraved from following him. People are drawn to power; if that power is a god, they’d most likely try to give it a face through statues and other means. In the case of Dhuum’s followers they’d also try to eclipse the worship of other deities by either destroying those clergies or gaining more converts from all walks of life.

I agree. A being as powerful as the God of Death could not help but attract followers; I guess the question is really just whether the following was part of the mainstream of worship or a more fringe/underground deal, like Abaddon’s cult after his fall.

Edit: As to the circumstances of Dhuum’s defeat, I just had a thought. Assuming, as seems reasonable at this point, that Malchor is Grenth’s father, the timeline would suggest that he died well Dhuum was still the lord of the Underworld. Yet he was attached enough to Tyria to become a ghost. I freely admit that we know little enough of Grenth to make this a rather shaky supposition, but perhaps the conflict between Dhuum and Grenth at least had its roots in that fact? It would at least account for the otherwise strange coincidence that Dhuum was defeated by Malchor’s son very near to the place where Malchor took his own life.

I’ve always taken that the Six Gods had removed knowledge of Dhuum just as they did of Abaddon, since until GW2 all we knew of Dhuum came from the Underworld and the Realm of Torment. And all knowledge in GW2 sans the Orrian History Scrolls and the place of Dhuum’s fall can easily be coming from the revelation of old gods like Abaddon becoming more well known.

While they didn’t do a good job of removing knowledge of Abaddon, they also left immediately after his fall (“immediately” being within the year), so it’s not surprising they missed stuff (though simply sinking his temple instead of obliterating it… yeah… I’m going to place that in the same place that “movie logic” falls into – aka done because it looks cool, not because it makes logical sense, same reason why every horror movie more or less has people being dumb and putting themselves in the danger knowingly but uncaringly – that, or the removal of knowledge of Abaddon fell to their followers, and not themselves). But with Dhuum, they had at least 48 years going off of Grenth’s scriptures. That’s at least 48 times longer to wipe out knowledge/records of Dhuum than of Abaddon.

They’d also have less motivation to do so, though. In Abaddon’s case, such a cover-up was an act of necessity, since it seems simple knowledge of his existence could give him a foothold in Tyria. In Dhuum’s case, without that necessity… would they really go to such an effort? A massive undertaking to deceive, simply to hide the fact that gods can be replaced? The reapers certainly didn’t seem to care if you knew.

Abaddon’s foothold in Tyria wasn’t because people knew of him, but because of the rituals Varesh had performed. What would prevent people from doing the same for Dhuum?

Though I had thought the reason for wiping out knowledge was more to keep the thought of “the Six Gods can be overthrown” out. They needent do this with Kormir around because they’re no longer in Tyria. But with Dhuum? Abaddon’s unnamed predecessor? I would think so. Also, Lyssa’s origins are explicitly stated to be forgotten. Coincidence? I think not.

I think the Six Gods are very conscious about their pasts being known.

While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past.

Among them was Abaddon—once secret-keeper, now betrayer. How you have fallen from the glorious days of old. What passed beyond in the Mists, only you remember.

Correct. Twin sisters Ilya and Lyss together form the goddess Lyssa. Though their names are known, we have found no stories detailing Lyssa’s origins.

The thing is, Dhuum wasn’t fought by the other gods, Grenth alone (with his reapers) defeated Dhuum. It wasn’t like abbadon who betrayed/attacked them.

Also, wasn’t there a piece of writing which described Malchor’s creation of the various statues, which included his reaction toward Grenth (among each one)?

Though the most likely piece of evidence for that theory is from the Orrian history scrolls.

“Grenth, son of Dwayna, first god born of Tyria. His powers deal in mortality and judgment. Defeater of Dhuum, Lord of the Seven Reapers, he is the prince of ice and sorrow.”
“Standing before his immortal mother, Grenth claimed his place among the gods. Where his father had fallen, Grenth would rise.”

Both Dhuum’s destroyed tower, and Malchor’s fall are within the Malchor’s leap area. And if he was before his mother, it may have been in her temple (which Malchor jumped from to his death).

So then why don’t we know anything about Abaddon’s predecessor? Or the origins of Lyssa? Why is there no mention of ANY kind about Dhuum in all of Tyria beyond what was gained in GW1 (which was via the Mists) and the location of his fall (which, might I add, we only know due to the name of the object… which no one else would know outright – the PoI is equally questionable).

That piece of writing was the aforementioned “removed” inscription on the Divinity’s Reach statue of Grenth – which changed slightly and was requoted to be Desmina.

Dhuum’s tower is in the Underworld, it isn’t where he was defeated (which was the ossuary of the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance). I fail to see why Dwayna would have to be at her temple (especially given that she lived in Arah), I think that bit is metaphorical and not meant to be that Grenth was accepted/standing before Dwayna near where his supposed father died.

There is a difference between active and utter concealment of knowledge (such as Abbadon), and simply the person being forgotten to history. Why bother continuing to talk about Dhuum when Grenth is the god of death?

Abaddon’s predecessor would likely be hidden, just like he was (because why mention his predecessor if you can’t mention him? Or also forgotton)

It seems like Dhuum wasn’t hidden that much since say, the priests of grenth know he is the son of Dwayna and ascended to godhood.

Also, the writing could be metaphorical, could be more serious, but it’s something pointing toward Malchor being the father as opposed to other stuff.

And no one, in a thousand+ years, asked “where do the gods come from?” “well, Grenth usurped this one god… what was his name again?” I find this hard to believe. It’s not like we’ve forgotten the names of the Roman, Greek, or even Babylonian gods. Furthermore, from Cathedral of Silence personal story:

Grenth is Dwayna’s son, but only half-god. His father was a mortal sculptor, but that is one of the greatest secrets of our church.

Why keep such a thing a secret? Let alone “one of the greatest secrets”? The only reason I can think of is “to keep mortals from thinking the gods can be usurped” in which case, removal of the knowledge of Dhuum is equally imperative than removal of knowledge of Abaddon.

My point on Abaddon’s predecessor is that it seems not even the Margonites or the Realm of Torment itself holds the predecessor’s name.

To your third point: Again, knowledge of Dhuum seems to have become as common as knowledge of Abaddon at the same time. Rhie mentions Grenth being a half-mortal is the priesthood of Grenth’s greatest secret, but that doesn’t mean outright that they knew of Dhuum pre-Nightfall (and even then, if they did, that likely fell into that same “greatest secret”).

So… why keep Grenth’s origin a secret? And why the greatest secret (at least, greatest post-Nightfall)?

I’m simply noting a difference between "NOBODY knows about abaddon after his defeat " (least till nightfall.) vs “Grenth’s priests and dwayna’s prietss know this fact.”

Sure, common folk might not know it, but priests do. That means (to me) it’s a secret, not common knowledge, but not a hardcore “We wiped all information of this from history.”

Course, the blurb I saw about abaddon’s precursor was also that it seemed like it was very, very ancient. Likely before the margonites were even around. And realm of torment was made AFTER abaddon’s fall.

Kalavier.1097:

I’m simply noting a difference between "NOBODY knows about abaddon after his defeat " (least till nightfall.) vs “Grenth’s priests and dwayna’s prietss know this fact.”

Sure, common folk might not know it, but priests do. That means (to me) it’s a secret, not common knowledge, but not a hardcore “We wiped all information of this from history.”

Course, the blurb I saw about abaddon’s precursor was also that it seemed like it was very, very ancient. Likely before the margonites were even around. And realm of torment was made AFTER abaddon’s fall.

There is nothing that says it was made AFTER his fall. It was intended as a prison for him, but that doesn’t it was created for that purpose or that it did not exist before that point.

I wouldn’t say “nobody knew of Abaddon after his fall” given the existence of many statues and scriptures related to him throughout the world. There’s even mention of Reza being a devout of the six gods, and a post-fall mention of Abaddon in the Orrian History Scrolls written in prose which heavily suggests them not being Priory written but Orrian written.

And honestly, “only the priesthood of Grenth knows this” feels like a “we wiped it from history” to me. It’s just that one group decided to keep it known amongst themselves so they didn’t become among the ignorant masses.

And the Realm of Torment was Abaddon’s realm before his fall – it was made into his prison because it was his realm.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I fail to see why Dwayna would have to be at her temple (especially given that she lived in Arah), I think that bit is metaphorical and not meant to be that Grenth was accepted/standing before Dwayna near where his supposed father died.

It would be kinda weird if that line isn’t meant to be taken in a literal sense. I mean, why phrase it like that if Grenth’s ascension to the pantheon, where he was admitted into the ranks of the Six, and the place where his father had perished are two entirely separate locations?

Personally, I think after Dhuum was deposed, his hold on the Underworld broken and all the innocent spirits unjustly held and tortured (possibly including Malchor himself) sent to the afterlife they truly deserved, Grenth and his mother met on the cliffs behind the Cathedral of Zephyrs, where his father had taken his life and Dwayna had lost her lover. Dwayna commended her son for defeating Dhuum, then offered him Dhuum’s former throne in the pantheon/Arah. Which Grenth did accept, obviously.

From my memory of the stuff that was released before and around Nightfall, it was explicitly stated that the eradication of knowledge of Abaddon came about because knowledge of Abaddon gave Abaddon a link to Tyria, which he could use to push minions through, influence minds, and otherwise interfere with the world.

In Dhuum’s case, it’s probably that Grenth, on assuming deityhood, took over all of Dhuum’s sites, removing all of Dhuum’s iconography and replacing it with his own. Real-world history, after all, is full of building temples to new religions over the sites of the old. Ironically, after a few decades, this is probably more efficient at eradicating a religion than trying to seal it away – since sooner or later such ‘hidden’ sites as the sunken Cathedral of Abaddon and the Apocrypha are inevitably discovered, while the former identity of a rededicated temple is probably forgotten within a few centuries.

draxynnic.3719:

From my memory of the stuff that was released before and around Nightfall, it was explicitly stated that the eradication of knowledge of Abaddon came about because knowledge of Abaddon gave Abaddon a link to Tyria, which he could use to push minions through, influence minds, and otherwise interfere with the world.

In Dhuum’s case, it’s probably that Grenth, on assuming deityhood, took over all of Dhuum’s sites, removing all of Dhuum’s iconography and replacing it with his own. Real-world history, after all, is full of building temples to new religions over the sites of the old. Ironically, after a few decades, this is probably more efficient at eradicating a religion than trying to seal it away – since sooner or later such ‘hidden’ sites as the sunken Cathedral of Abaddon and the Apocrypha are inevitably discovered, while the former identity of a rededicated temple is probably forgotten within a few centuries.

^ this is what I was talking about really. They didn’t purposefully hide Dhuum’s existence, but Grenth replaced his statues, icons, etc with brand new Grenth ones. After a while, people forgot about Dhuum.

Given the nature of Gods, it may be wrong to assume that Grenth was conceived, born, and raised in a natural human manner. There is also always the possibility that the father is an unnamed sculptor who worked during the original founding of Arah. It would not surprising that his name had been erased from history if the Gods wished that to happen.

Simple, though;
Grenth with the help of seven reapers defeated Dhuum deep beneath the orrian lands and sealed him within the halls of judgement. He destroyed his tower and created the Chaos Planes.

After this, Grenth took his place by his mother in the hall of gods, in the abandoned seat of his father.

Now the important part; The abandoned seat if his father, is the seat emptied by Dhuum, or did another god leave the six prior to Dhuum’s fall.

Abaddon usurped his throne from another god, so why not grenth

Nothing says that Grenth assumed godhood “in the abandoned seat of his father” but rather “where his father fell, Grenth rose.” Which can mean a large variety of things – the first thought that came to my mind was “Dhuum is Grenth’s father.” But that doesn’t seem likely unless Dhuum was a god for so short of a timespan.

At least we should strike the Cathedral out, because the timing is very hard there.

Dwayna left and because of that Malchor did suicide. He finished the statue before and should know the fact that she will leave if he is done (the other gods did leave after their statue was finished). Maybe he finished, touched her and jumped before Dwayna left, but it seems unlikely to jump into dead in front of your beloved. Now putting Grenth onto that cliff causes a lot trouble. It would have been the last action of Dwayna before she left Tyria and after all other gods already left it. In this case she probably would have omitted the rest of the pantheon with her decision.

Either Grenth ascended before Malchor built the statues and couldn’t be his son based on the literally position where his father has fallen or it happened after it resulting in the fact that Grenth would never have set a foot on Tyria (I don’t know recordings of Grenth in Tyria, but I assume there are some since he is well known).

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Dwayna left and because of that Malchor did suicide. He finished the statue before and should know the fact that she will leave if he is done (the other gods did leave after their statue was finished). Maybe he finished, touched her and jumped before Dwayna left, but it seems unlikely to jump into dead in front of your beloved. Now putting Grenth onto that cliff causes a lot trouble. It would have been the last action of Dwayna before she left Tyria and after all other gods already left it. In this case she probably would have omitted the rest of the pantheon with her decision.

Actually, while each of the Gods did “leave” after Malchor finished their respective statue, this act of leaving simply meant that they went back to their home in the Heart of Arah.

The act of leaving the world of Tyria happened later, although I think we don’t know by exactly how much. Meaning, you won’t have to worry about this particular timeline problem

Dhuum could possibly be Grenth’s stepfather. That might explain animosity between the two. “Where is the god to Whom I may beg revenge against those who scorn me?” is the appeal to Grenth, and that suggests to me that Grenth was scorned by Dhuum.

Malchor lived for quite some time after he did Dwayna’s first sculpture, during such a time he slowly became insane as he attempted, though blind, to recreate the “perfection” of Dwayna’s beauty – each time believing he failed, that the sculptures were inadequate.

And that appeal to Grenth is actually what Desmina shouted to the winds back in (supposedly) 48 BE, and Grenth answered. It wasn’t directed at Grenth, but to the Six Gods in general, as Desmia wished for power for vengeance (what that vengeance was is unknown). It may be that was the very first act of Grenth as a god (to the mortals’ eyes).

I am suggesting that revenge is highly important to Grenth as it played an important part in his life, presumably the killing of Dhuum. If Desmina was exiled (by the Gods?) for her power and ambition then perhaps Grenth appreciates another of his own aspects, the power and ambition to threaten the Gods .

Grenth is justice, and sometimes revenge deals with getting justice dealt for a wrong in the past.

Well this thread went much farther than I expected! It’s a good thing though. The fact that Desmina was written on the inscription rather than Malchor clears things up for me a lot, I think. Now there are tons of other things to consider though, apparently. One of them being the difference between GW1 and GW2 Grenth statues. They do look awfully different. I’m not saying that one is in fact Dhuum, just that the change is something interesting. So now I’m leaning towards the timeline of: Gods (Dwayna) commissioned Malchor to craft statues (Whether or not he made Dhuum statues is an issue) He crafts them, slowly goes blind, diligently tries to perfect the “unworthy” face of the Dwayna statue, does the deed with Dwayna? Kills himself in despair, Grenth is born (order on those two could be interchanged I guess? If Dwayna never told him he had a half-God son) Grenth raises to Godhood, (replaces Dhuum statues or builds new ones of himself?) Abaddon rebellion business, Abaddon statues sunk or destroyed (or pulled into the Realm of Torment in one case) Gods leave. At least that’s the likely timeline I picture. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, or throw in other important bits I missed. It’s been fun reading this thread, I think.

I think you’re pretty spot on with the timeline, although I can’t think of any particular reason Malchor couldn’t have known Grenth was his son.

As far as the statues go, all of them got changed dramatically (and inconsistently, I might add: it seems to have been totally random, which statues were changed to the new style and which were left in the old). The difference between new Grenth and old Grenth really is no greater than between new Balthazar and old Balthazar.

I suppose you’re right. The change really could be nothing more than “This looks a little prettier, lets use these skins instead” Or just that GW1 really couldn’t capture the look they wanted like GW2 graphics can. And I was thinking maybe Malchor died while Grenth was in gestation or maybe Dwayna simply never told him for whatever reason. The guy seemed to have enough trouble as it was with his impending blindness and insanity. But being insane with love, maybe he knew Grenth was his child and simply didn’t care. All that mattered to him was Dwayna, and that’s the only thing on his mind.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Either Grenth ascended before Malchor built the statues and couldn’t be his son based on the literally position where his father has fallen or it happened after it resulting in the fact that Grenth would never have set a foot on Tyria (I don’t know recordings of Grenth in Tyria, but I assume there are some since he is well known).

It also depends on how precise the writer of the epitaph cared to be.

The site of Dhuum’s Last Stand is, after all, basically two doors down from the precipice from which Malchor leaped. You have the ossuary, a road to the coast, the Cathedral of Zephyrs, than on the opposite side you have the precipice. While the exact scale of anything ingame is hard to judge (remember, lorewise it takes days to get from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City, and that’s taking a more direct route than currently available ingame) we’re probably still talking about a distance of less than a kilometer. The writer of the epitaph may have felt that the two were close enough to make use of poetic license and call them the same.

Everyone’s talking about Malchor being the father of Grenth, but as far as I know we still don’t have any actual evidence… ?

A lot of theory is based on that, while afaik, we just don’t know if it’s true or not.

Icdan Sevaen.4628:

Everyone’s talking about Malchor being the father of Grenth, but as far as I know we still don’t have any actual evidence… ?

A lot of theory is based on that, while afaik, we just don’t know if it’s true or not.

We don’t have any direct evidence, but we do know that his father was a sculptor, we do know that Malchor is the only sculptor ever associated with Dwayna, we do know that the gods only went to Malchor because they tried not to spend time among the general populace, and we do know that the only evidence against the theory was deliberately removed by ANet and replaced with something else. That makes a very strong case, as far as the theories around here usually go.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

As far as the statues go, all of them got changed dramatically (and inconsistently, I might add: it seems to have been totally random, which statues were changed to the new style and which were left in the old). The difference between new Grenth and old Grenth really is no greater than between new Balthazar and old Balthazar.

I would disagree here. While they’re all dramatically changed, there’s two things to note:

• The only statue seen in GW1 that was replaced with the new version is at Reaper’s Gate. The rest of the new statues were in places not seen in GW1, or lacked a statue in GW1 (the latter being places like Ascalon Settlement).
• Grenth was changed from an old man in a robe with a goat-like skull into a young, muscular, armor-clad man. Dwayna was a winged female, is now a winged female; Melandru was a winged female, is now a woman sitting on/coming out of a tree; Balthazar was an armor-clad warrior with a greatsword, is now a armor-clad warrior with his hounds at his feet; Lyssa was two women wrapped around each other, is now two women back to back; Kormir was herself standing atop Abaddon’s second mask, is now a woman with straight hair with waves around her.

Only Kormir and Grenth’s got drastically changed – and Grenth far more so. As if the GW2 statues of Grenth are depicting a younger Grenth while the GW1 statues are depicting an older Grenth. Balthazar’s statue is perhaps the least dramatic in terms of what it depicts (on par to Dwayna, though the early rendition of the new statue for her was even more dramatic, being armor-clad and sword-wielding as well).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Icdan Sevaen.4628:

Everyone’s talking about Malchor being the father of Grenth, but as far as I know we still don’t have any actual evidence… ?

A lot of theory is based on that, while afaik, we just don’t know if it’s true or not.

We don’t have any direct evidence, but we do know that his father was a sculptor, we do know that Malchor is the only sculptor ever associated with Dwayna, we do know that the gods only went to Malchor because they tried not to spend time among the general populace, and we do know that the only evidence against the theory was deliberately removed by ANet and replaced with something else. That makes a very strong case, as far as the theories around here usually go.

There is also minor indication that it was not a one-sided love between Malchor and Dwayna:

“When it was done, he asked Dwayna if she favored the image, and weeping, Dwayna allowed him to touch her face, that he might know the precision with which—even blind—he had carved her image.”

It’s not a heavy indication, but that depiction makes it feel like there was some feelings – even if only spontaneous – from Dwayna towards Malchor.

I’m not sure I see any particular age in the GW1 style Grenth- between the robe and the skull, I can’t put any age to him at all. From my perspective, the difference was just a change in his garment and face, which is what the Balthazar change was.

As far as my point on the randomness, perhaps a better phrasing would have been “which are in the new style and which are in the old”. The GW2 style seems to be primarily in Orr and modern Krytan settlements, but when you remove those two areas from the pool, you get a confusing jumble of GW1 (most of the places we’d previously saw them, plus a scattering of new ones) and GW2 (Reaper’s Gate and the Ascalonian Catacombs in particular) with no easily discernible criteria, in lore or design terms, for the choices.

I agree with Aaron; I can’t really put an age to the GW1 depictions of Grenth, either. The drawn skull mask and the robes hide his features well enough, but all of his imagery imply broad shoulders. Just because he’s turned conservative and decided not to look like a buff heartthrob (that would’ve put the wrong image into the mind of his female followers) by concealing his abs doesn’t mean he’s automatically become oldish.

If one looks at the face of Grenth in the old version, he has a long beard and apparently no skull, with deep set eyes much like that of an old man. Scriptures mention “bony hands”, and that is what the Gendarran mural and Ascalon mural (not the glass one) show. Thus doesn’t really fit with the new model of a buff man.

But I digress because I thought, though I was wrong, that the manual mentions said body if an old man, but it just says body of a man.

Erm… when could we see his face without a skull? I forget if we did or not.

I think the wiki or someplace else calls the GW2 style “Orrian” and the GW1 style a different name (if named at all), as if you had two artists, Malchor’s statues, and then another set created by other sculptors (likely based off Malchor’s statues).

As said, the GW1 statue appears – to me – to be lacking any kind of skull mask.

Looking back, I suppose I can see it. But it’s hard to tell age.

Of course, the avatar of grenth has a clearly defined skull mask, and some of the murals also clearly show a skull mask on grenth.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/1/16/Avatar_of_Grenth_model.jpg

According to wiki, the description of the statue changed sometimes between Tequatl rising and dragon bash.

I dunno. If that’s not a mask, then Grenth is missing his lower jaw.

One possibility that also strikes my mind is that those GW2 statues that bear faces have them being much more detailed than the GW1 statues, even taking into account the difference in technology. An explanation could be that the GW2 statues are more of a true representation of the visage of the gods deriving from Malchor’s sacrifice of his sight in order to sculpt the gods – the GW1 style, on the other hand, may be more stylised, intended more to capture the idea of the god then their actual physical features. So, for instance, Dwayna’s GW1 statue focuses on being the Winged Mother (albeit without the swollen belly of many fertility goddesses…), Grenth on being the personification of death, and so on – not detailed representations, but simply representing the idea of the god.

I had a post similar to that but I didn’t post it.

Basically that GW2 style are “Orrian style” statues, while GW1 are of another sculptor, based off the Orrian ones. Or simpler to make and thus slightly more widespread.

I believe the wiki calls them by those names as well. “Orrian” for Gw2 and no name for gw1.

It just occurred to me: with the exception of Balthazar*, all the gods have their facial (and bodily, too, but that’s not the point) features sculpted with painstaking detail (we can even even see Abaddon’s mouth and jaw, although the rest is hidden by his signature mask). But what’s the case with Grenth’s statue?

Even in Kekai’s far-more detailed concept art of the statue it’s very hard to tell what’s beneath his hood. Looks like a full, face-concealing mask – not his signature drawn beast skull – with some horn-like appendages. It seems to me that no mortal has ever seen his true face and the GW2 statues of him – similarly to the GW1 ones – are pieced together from descriptions in Grenth’s scriptures, Desmina’s (maybe Mausollus’s too) memoirs, etc. and, as Drax put it, are “representing the idea of the god,” too.

That leads me to think that, since Malchor’s task was to show the goddesses and gods in their real, physical being through his statues, the sculptor of Grenth’s statue couldn’t have been Malchor. I’d think Dwayna would’ve reined her son in for once and told him to “put that ridiculous mask off for the sake of one statue” if he had been in the pantheon during the time when the statues were commissioned. However, since Grenth ascended after the statues had been finished and Malchor killed himself – in the most likely scenario -, the god of death didn’t feel the need to show himself before another sculptor and have his visage immortalized for his mortal followers. It would actually fit Grenth’s behavior if he didn’t care and let his worshipers visualize him in the way they wanted – which might also include his iconography supplanting Dhuum’s. Grenth – unlike Dhuum – doesn’t strike me as vain. Why would he care how mortals envision their inevitable fate?

*As for Balthazar: his bearded countenance was somehow recorded – or he himself ordered his priests to make that addition to his sculpted and painted visage – as post-Malchor iconography shows off his mighty beard.

Kalavier.1097:

I had a post similar to that but I didn’t post it.

Basically that GW2 style are “Orrian style” statues, while GW1 are of another sculptor, based off the Orrian ones. Or simpler to make and thus slightly more widespread.

I believe the wiki calls them by those names as well. “Orrian” for Gw2 and no name for gw1.

The naming was my doing as the GW2 style originates from Orr, even if it spread outward and was used for Kormir. Lore wise. I couldn’t think of a decent name for referring to the GW1 statues except “GW1 style” which is how I labeled them on GW2W.

This came up a little while ago, and I was linked here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/GuildwarsLore/comments/22oyal/conflicting_grenth_information/

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

As far as the statues go, all of them got changed dramatically (and inconsistently, I might add: it seems to have been totally random, which statues were changed to the new style and which were left in the old). The difference between new Grenth and old Grenth really is no greater than between new Balthazar and old Balthazar.

I would disagree here. While they’re all dramatically changed, there’s two things to note:

• The only statue seen in GW1 that was replaced with the new version is at Reaper’s Gate. The rest of the new statues were in places not seen in GW1, or lacked a statue in GW1 (the latter being places like Ascalon Settlement).
• Grenth was changed from an old man in a robe with a goat-like skull into a young, muscular, armor-clad man. Dwayna was a winged female, is now a winged female; Melandru was a winged female, is now a woman sitting on/coming out of a tree; Balthazar was an armor-clad warrior with a greatsword, is now a armor-clad warrior with his hounds at his feet; Lyssa was two women wrapped around each other, is now two women back to back; Kormir was herself standing atop Abaddon’s second mask, is now a woman with straight hair with waves around her.

Grenth is Benjamin Button.