Guild Wars 2

So the recent chronomancer blogpost drew my attention to something else: The cancelled GW1 campaign Utopia. Even though I played GW1 for years, achieving both 50 points in HoM and GWAMM, I’ve never heard of this campaign before.

Only a few things are known about it: From early artworks, it can be assumed that it was planned to have some indoamerican playstyle (like Asian and African for Factions and Nightfall). However, there were a few quite interesting things:
a) The main architecture seems to be a aztecian temple/pyramid thing, very similar to Rata Sum etc. architecture
b) There were some golem-like creatures, but, in contrary to GW2 asuran golems, they seem to be some ancient wardens, left back by some old disappeared race, to guard their old temples / whatever.
c) Well, this may seem a bit like an artifical connection, but “Utopia” can be interpreted as “unseen” – possibly leading to mursaat? Kinda weak argument, of course.
d) From some ingame hints, Utopia may have taken place at the west coast of Tyria – around the Heart of Maguuma?

Now, since Utopia was cancelled and replaced by Eye of the North, leading to GW2, there are some points that make me think.
I have to admit I’m definitely no lore expert, but as far as I know, Rata Sum and other similar places (like Rata Pten) weren’t built by Asuras, but rather “found and taken”. Is there any explanation / hint regarding this in official lore? Was there an ancient race that vanished, leaving their ruins behind?

In combination with the Utopia stuff, there are a few possibilities:

1) Arenanet re-used some of their plans for Utopia in their new campaign – they simply threw off the Utopia story ideas, but used their planned locations for the asuras and changed the golems from an ancient guardian to a high-tech robot golem, created by Asuras. However, not much lore about it. The anagram Rata Sum – Mursaat could be something like an inside joke – IF they planned to put the mursaat in Utopia.

2) They may have kept their idea of an aztecian-style race that left for some unknown reason, leaving their ruins behind. Maybe the anagram Rata Sum – Mursaat is a hint for that? Interesting enough, the mursaat seem to have an outpost/city west of Rata Sum (that gets accessible with HoT) – could it be possible that they left their former city for some reason? (Mordremoth… Leylines… Bloodstone?)

3) Or the anagram could be a coincidence and it was some other race. Maybe Anet has plans on using this secret race at a later time, or it was just an “any race” placeholder that explained the existence of ruins – making it possible for Anet to re-use their Utopia locations.

However, I like the idea that they implemented some of their Utopia ideas in GW2 (and the old Rata Sum in EotN, of course). I’m really interested if some lore expert knows anything more about those old ruins and their connection to GW Utopia and GW2 Heart of Thorns (both seem to be placed in jungle environment).

PS: Sorry for grammatical issues, non-native speaker here.

Thanathos.2063:

I have to admit I’m definitely no lore expert, but as far as I know, Rata Sum and other similar places (like Rata Pten) weren’t built by Asuras, but rather “found and taken”. Is there any explanation / hint regarding this in official lore? Was there an ancient race that vanished, leaving their ruins behind?

Not that I know of. Asura migrated to the surface discovered a bunch of ruins and built Rata Sum on / in / with them. I think this was possibly left purposely vague to allow for possible future stories, or at least just a nod to the Utopia. But those far more skilled in the Asura lore than me can probably say if there’s any in game references, but I don’t recall.

Wow, this was a nice bunch of information, I did not know that and also never asked myself about Rata Sum. I played GW1 for years as well but never thought about the Asura architecture. I would like to tell you something i remembered now:
Guild Wars Utopia should have been on the western side of Tyria, yes ? Yes, then GW-Utopia should have been on the Janthir Isles or stuff like that. I see the connection between the Mursaat(ancient race), the Mursaat from Heart of Thorns and their Architecture in connection with the Asuran Guild Wars 1 architecure. I remember there was a cooperative mission in Guild Wars 1, In Kryta where you had to transport the “Eye of Janthir” from one place to another, do you remember ? I forgot the name but I am sure you know what I mean. So this “Eye of Janthir” was something from that Guild Wars Utopia ? I also heared, the Mursaat came originally from the Janthir Isles, so this is quite interesting. In my opinion its also a bit sad, they threw away the idea of Guild Wars Utopia, I had big hopes for once exploring these western coast in Tyria (Janthir). Does it mean, that we`ll never get there ? Another question, do you know the creator of the Eye of the North ? Is it actually lore-relevant, since its detroyed ?

Thanathos.2063:

Well, this may seem a bit like an artifical connection, but “Utopia” can be interpreted as “unseen” – possibly leading to mursaat? Kinda weak argument, of course.

Utopia refers to a paradise of some sort. Nothing ‘unseen’ about it.

Thanathos.2063:

d) From some ingame hints, Utopia may have taken place at the west coast of Tyria – around the Heart of Maguuma?

I don’t think it came from anything in-game, however the common speculation was that it was off of the west coast of Tyria – basically, where the modern world map places Sunrise Crest. Given the ship route lines to The Battle Isles from Sunrise Crest in the Durmand Priory’s map, this old speculation has even more merit now.

Thanathos.2063:

I have to admit I’m definitely no lore expert, but as far as I know, Rata Sum and other similar places (like Rata Pten) weren’t built by Asuras, but rather “found and taken”. Is there any explanation / hint regarding this in official lore? Was there an ancient race that vanished, leaving their ruins behind?

Rata Pten is epxlicitly stated to be asuran architecture that predates the Cataclysm (1071 AE), and even houses asuran relics.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Early_Asura_Relief_Rubbing#Fine

Also, an often forgotten piece of asuran lore:

It has been centuries since Asura were seen aboveground. In fact, until recently, many humans thought they were a myth. However, recent reports have confirmed their existence.

From the Eye of the North manual.

So we know for a fact that the asura were on the surface before 1078 AE – before 978, even (likely before 878). We see Rata Pten as ruins of such a time. Rata Sum’s ruins – all Tarnished Coast ruins, actually, match both Rata Pten and the Central Transfer Chamber (which was one of the six great cathedral-cities of the Depths, another one being Quora Sum).

Fun fact: these same ruins can also be found at the vista within Lightfoot Passage. Underground, but near the surface.

Thanathos.2063:

The anagram Rata Sum – Mursaat could be something like an inside joke – IF they planned to put the mursaat in Utopia.

Or the more likely scenario: Rata Sum is latin for “I have calculated” and “I am certain.” It being an anagram for mursaat is 100% coincidence.

If it was intended, then it was most likely just a joke because of the players’ love of the mursaat and that Eye of the North brought them back from extinction.

Thanathos.2063:

Interesting enough, the mursaat seem to have an outpost/city west of Rata Sum (that gets accessible with HoT) – could it be possible that they left their former city for some reason? (Mordremoth… Leylines… Bloodstone?)

Presuming that…

1) The Exalted Ones are mursaat.
2) Those are mursaat structures and not just innovated.
3) The Ring of Fire structures are not of mursaat origin.

Thanathos.2063:

Or the anagram could be a coincidence and it was some other race. Maybe Anet has plans on using this secret race at a later time, or it was just an “any race” placeholder that explained the existence of ruins – making it possible for Anet to re-use their Utopia locations.

Other race = asura, most likely, given Rata Pten and the Central Transfer Chamber.

TBH, I’m a bit disappointed this ended up being nothing more than the same old theory for the Tarnished Coast ruins with nothing new to add

But as a final note… Fun fact: asura also existed in Utopia concept art, though more primitive.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Thanathos.2063:

Well, this may seem a bit like an artifical connection, but “Utopia” can be interpreted as “unseen” – possibly leading to mursaat? Kinda weak argument, of course.

Utopia refers to a paradise of some sort. Nothing ‘unseen’ about it.

Just a small correction there, Konig, there is some discussion about the meaning of the word ‘utopia’. It might be related to the greek ‘ou’ and ‘topos’ meaning ‘no place’ or to the greek ‘eu’ and ‘topos’ meaning ‘good place’. Possibly utopia is related to both, it meaning something like ‘a good place that does not exist’ or ‘a good place that most people don’t know exists’.

Well, I would argue that it technically would be both. Because a perfect place (or “good place”) simply doesn’t exist.

However, “no place” still doesn’t refer to ‘unseen’ but rather ‘non-existent.’ A very fine difference, thus my statement that there’s nothing unseen about it remains true.

Second however, the little lore we got on GW:Utopia mentioned a bit of a paradise location that becomes assaulted by the earliest versions of the destroyers: tanneks, which were demonic pig-like creatures.

Diovid.9506:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Thanathos.2063:

Well, this may seem a bit like an artifical connection, but “Utopia” can be interpreted as “unseen” – possibly leading to mursaat? Kinda weak argument, of course.

Utopia refers to a paradise of some sort. Nothing ‘unseen’ about it.

Just a small correction there, Konig, there is some discussion about the meaning of the word ‘utopia’. It might be related to the greek ‘ou’ and ‘topos’ meaning ‘no place’ or to the greek ‘eu’ and ‘topos’ meaning ‘good place’. Possibly utopia is related to both, it meaning something like ‘a good place that does not exist’ or ‘a good place that most people don’t know exists’.

This was actually a theme of Thomas More’s political satire “Utopia” which played on the dual meaning of the word: “good place” and “no place”. However, it definitely does not mean " unseen place" as the OP is suggesting.

Haven’t read all replies so sorry if been answered already.

The asura’s modern aboveground architecture is inspired by the ruins they found when they came to the surface. Most likely the ruins we’re seeing in silverwastes and such are from the same civilization.

I remember some lore tidbit that there used to be an ancient civilization west of the maguuma jungle, and the ruins we find, and the ones the asura found, are remnants of it. Might be from a civilization before the previous dragon rising, possibly mursaat given the HoT intro we’ve seen so far and the fact that rata sum is an anagram for mursaat. We’ll see soon enough I suspect.

Their modern structure resembles their subterranean structures. Which happened to use the same models and textures as the ruins the asura inhabited.

The Silverwaste ruins don’t seem to match the Tarnished Coast ruins.

The lore about west of the Maguuma came from Fort Koga. Fort Koga was a fort along a trade route from Kryta to the west coast – nothing was ever mentioned about what was there, except for the west coast.

Well I did get that info about asuran architecture from the wiki, and I suppose it might be incorrect. Though their older structures using the same assets may also well be laziness/an oversight.

The wastes ruins are heavily hinted, by npc dialogue, to have some relevance to the coming story. Make of that what you will.

Though I suspect arguing these things with you is fruitless.

It’s known that the asura don’t know the origins of the ruins and have adapted some of their designs to their modern designs, but it’s also clear that their ancient structures use the same designs – not just in GW1, but in GW2 as well (see Rata Pten). When it’s done twice, I think it’s a bit more than mere laziness or oversights and shouldn’t be overlooked.

That’s all I was trying to say on that point.

https://youtu.be/n0x3wYYxUVY
Much of this is explained here