Real Dragons?
The only one I can think of is Kuunavang, the guardian of the Harvest Temple. Though for all we know, it could be the uncorrupted champion of Bubbles, and the plague that Shiro released was a type of dragon corruption.
Time can only tell…
I’d say they’re entirely different. Somewhere it was said that dragons like Glint and Kuunavang were vastly inferior compared to the Elder Dragons. But as Erukk said, there are some ‘regular’ dragons in Cantha. There were some undead bone dragons in Tyria too.
I’d say they’re entirely different. Somewhere it was said that dragons like Glint and Kuunavang were vastly inferior compared to the Elder Dragons. But as Erukk said, there are some ‘regular’ dragons in Cantha. There were some undead bone dragons in Tyria too.
Glint was revealed to be Kralkatorrik’s champion long time after that text you’re mentioning.
About the saltspray dragons and Kuunie, maybe they’re completly unrelated to the Elder Dragons, maybe not. With Cantha out of near future expectatives I think it will take some time before we get to know it.
About the bone dragons, Rotscale (the closest thing to a dragon champion on gw1 as it was epicly hard to kill without very specific builds and had tons of HP) is said to come from the Shiverpeak mountains (but I think that’s mostly because of him being fought there during beta), but on the other hand, most bone dragons fight alongside Orrian undeads so ir’s hard to know how related they’re.
Maybe they’re remains from the previous dragon conflict and were reanimated the same way the rest of the orrian undeads were during gw1.
I cannot see any connection between Kuunavang and the deep sea dragon – there’s nothing water-related to Kuunavang at all. If she’s tied to an Elder Dragon, which I wouldn’t doubt given the past relation between Glint and Kuunavang mentioned before (and later, Glint was compared to Rotscale, and also even later, after EoD’s release, Jeff and Ree contradicted each other about Glint and Kuunavang where Ree said they were different but Jeff said they’re similar, and then Jeff compared them to the Elder Dragons being both different but similar from each other), said connection Kuunavang would have with an ED would be to a seventh unknown ED (note: yes, we’re told there’s seven Elder Dragons, but this is of jotun knowledge and incomplete findings at that, so if jotun never heard of this other Elder Dragon… Plus, after Victory or Death in his little instance in Fort Trinity, Trahearne mentions dragons awakening across the world).
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I was joking when I said Kuunavang might be connected to the deep sea dragon. If it is connected to an Elder Dragon, it would be more along earth/plant based in nature. Kuunavang is the harvest dragon after all, so maybe the still unknown 6th dragon?
Plus, it would tie into the speculation that the sylvari and nightmare court possibly being connected to one.
I don’t think the Claw of Jormag is technically an Elder Dragon as well, but rather a lesser dragon corrupted by Jormag?
I can do thirty Five-Dolyak Arm Curls.
Do you even lift, bro?
Do you even lift, bro?
This is a subject I have been looking at for quite some time. I searched through old concept art and any other sources about dragons existing as a race. From what I can tell, there were and maybe still are many small dragon species, like the saltspray dragons and the undead dragons of GW1. When I see the dragon champions, I can’t help but think they are corrupted dragons, rather than simple manifestations of corrupted elements(Zhaitan’s champions stand out particularly).
While I don’t have encyclopedic knowledge of the game, I can’t think of any instances in GW1 or GW2 where large dragons were said to exist in a incorrupt form. The only thing I saw that could suggest incorrupt large dragons existing at all were some old bones in the pre-searing catacombs that bear a slight resemblance to GW2’s dragon champions(they certainly aren’t Lupicus bones).
Regnum Ascalon [RegA] ~~ Dragonbrand
I was joking when I said Kuunavang might be connected to the deep sea dragon. If it is connected to an Elder Dragon, it would be more along earth/plant based in nature. Kuunavang is the harvest dragon after all, so maybe the still unknown 6th dragon?
Plus, it would tie into the speculation that the sylvari and nightmare court possibly being connected to one.
Apparently, you’re confused somewhere.
Kuunavang is in no way shape or form related to the Harvest Ceremony, which in turn is not related in any known way shape or form to earth and nature. The Harvest Ceremony was a ceremony where the Emperor received a gift from the gods and then spread it to the people of Cantha – the “harvest” was of magic.
Also, the sylvari show no signs of being tied to Mordremoth (though the Nightmare does, and in turn the Nightmare Court does, but not the sylvari as a race – if people actually looked more than skin-deep at the situation, they’d realize this).
If anything, Kuunavang’s tied to some sort of sky/star Elder Dragon, given her ties to the celestials (she gives celestial skills) and air magic.
I don’t think the Claw of Jormag is technically an Elder Dragon as well, but rather a lesser dragon corrupted by Jormag?
No, it’s not an Elder Dragon – it’s a dragon champion like the Shatterers (made of rock and lightning) or Tequatl and co. (made out of corpses of various things, presumably). The Claws of Jormag (yes, there’s more than one) seem to be a construct of bones and ice – much like the Dragonspawn was. For starters, the Claws’ wings are definitely pure ice, however their legs look like frozen bone.
The only thing I saw that could suggest incorrupt large dragons existing at all were some old bones in the pre-searing catacombs that bear a slight resemblance to GW2’s dragon champions(they certainly aren’t Lupicus bones).
These bones have been making me rather curious as of late. They were originally believed to be Giganticus Lupicus bones, given their size and lack of G-Lupe appearances. There are three kinds of bones strewn throughout Tyria and Elona – and interestingly, they’re not seen in Cantha, but they are seen in the Underworld, Realm of Torment, and the Rift. Some of these have a serpentine appearance, while others have a more mammoth-like appearance. So its hard to say exactly what they were, and they appear in places from once-aquatic areas (Crystal Desert) to savannahs (Kourna) to jungles (Tarnished Coast, specifically underground in the TC) to mountains (Southern and Far Shiverpeaks). Whatever they were, they were wide-spread.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
I don’t think the Claw of Jormag is technically an Elder Dragon as well, but rather a lesser dragon corrupted by Jormag?
No, it’s not an Elder Dragon – it’s a dragon champion like the Shatterers (made of rock and lightning) or Tequatl and co. (made out of corpses of various things, presumably). The Claws of Jormag (yes, there’s more than one) seem to be a construct of bones and ice – much like the Dragonspawn was. For starters, the Claws’ wings are definitely pure ice, however their legs look like frozen bone.
That does actually speak for them being corrupted “normal” Dragons, doesn’t it? They resemble the lesser corrupted minions of their “patron”.
I can do thirty Five-Dolyak Arm Curls.
Do you even lift, bro?
Do you even lift, bro?
Well when you think about it honestly, they could be any type of corrupted creatures. I mean I remember reading in Edge of Destiny about gila monsters growing to multiple times their normal size once Kralkatorrik woke up. It’s not a far cry to believe that his minions could grow to multiple times their normal size and have their bodies transformed in the process.
Yeah, but transformed into such an iconic and recognizable dragon shape?
I can do thirty Five-Dolyak Arm Curls.
Do you even lift, bro?
Do you even lift, bro?
That does actually speak for them being corrupted “normal” Dragons, doesn’t it? They resemble the lesser corrupted minions of their “patron”.
That was, exactly, my point.
@Narcemus: In the case of the Shatterer(s), they seem to be stone shaped into a draconic shape.
All dragon champions that are dragons seem to be artificially created from non-living things (be it stone, bones/ice, or corpses).
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Here’s my take on the The Claw type of dragon. See, what Icebrood corruption does to you is that it eats you down to the bone, replacing your flesh with corrupted ice.
This is evident in Sons of Svanir; their arms get covered and seeimgly replaced by corrupted ice. Eventually they’ll end up as Icebrood Colossi; if you look at their model you can see a norn skeleton (most visible is the spinal cord) as well as a skull in their big “head”.
I’ve no doubt that’s what happened to the dragon as it became a Claw of Jormag.
I can do thirty Five-Dolyak Arm Curls.
Do you even lift, bro?
Do you even lift, bro?
I merely used Kralkatorrik, because other than Zhaitan he’s the only one that we have been allowed to see physically corrupting things. I have no doubt that the Tequatl type dragons are most likely a mixture of magic imbued parts and are sewn together much like abominations. I mean we know that magically imbued beings seem to grow and feed off of the magic. It is definitely not impossible to believe that Zhaitan could create those this way either.
I have a theory that Kralkatorrik’s new champions are mainly magically imbued rock because of the fact that he was betrayed by Glint, something that may honestly have been an unprecedented act. This could have made him leery of using once living beings as his strongest champions.
Then in all of this, the real question is: are the devs ever going to make a real flesh and blood dragon? Or are we going to keep getting OP elementals in dragon form? Not that its needed, but I like the idea of slaying a real dragon.
@Oglaf: I can see where you’re coming from, however, unlike the big chunks of ice that the standard icebrood are, the Claw isn’t such.
@Narcemus: Well, Glint is said during Arah to be made of crystal, so it’s not entirely certain she was a living dragon of flesh before corruption.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Well, no she didn’t necessarily need to be flesh and blood before her corruption, then again any kind of Branded being out there would be described as being made of crystal, so we cannot throw out this option. Her ability to reproduce points me to believe that she used to be a living creature of some sort (what kind I have no clue).
Lol this is all really confusing. So there are real dragons out there? Now the question is are all real dragons a part of the breed of elder dragons? maybe all the normal dragons are the off spring of a “good elder dragon” that isn’t intent on bring about apocalypse. like a life elder dragon?
We know that there are Saltspray Dragons in Cantha. Now these were hostile, but only because they were corrupted by the Jade Wind if I remember right. Before then they were benevolent. There is, I know this for a fact, 1 saltspray dragon in cantha that still gives out wishes. We do not know if they are related to an Elder Dragon though, but I honestly hope that they aren’t. It would be too much of the same old thing as we see in Tyria.
i don’t know a lot about GW2 lore, and even less about GW1 lore, but do the facets of the human gods anything to do with this?
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Facet
i guess the question would be whether the facets imitate actual (not elder) dragons that may have existed at some point, or whether they are the source/pattern that any kind of dragon is shaped after.
sorry if this is off-topic, i figured it may be kind of related. also, would the forgotten be related to dragons?
Apparently, you’re confused somewhere.
Kuunavang is in no way shape or form related to the Harvest Ceremony, which in turn is not related in any known way shape or form to earth and nature. The Harvest Ceremony was a ceremony where the Emperor received a gift from the gods and then spread it to the people of Cantha – the “harvest” was of magic.
Also, the sylvari show no signs of being tied to Mordremoth (though the Nightmare does, and in turn the Nightmare Court does, but not the sylvari as a race – if people actually looked more than skin-deep at the situation, they’d realize this).
If anything, Kuunavang’s tied to some sort of sky/star Elder Dragon, given her ties to the celestials (she gives celestial skills) and air magic.
While Kuunavang might not be directly related to the Harvest Ceremony, she is related to the Harvest Temple itself, in that her lair was/is directly below it. Which is saying something, since the Harvest Temple was such a place of importance.
I also think that the “harvest of magic” of the Ceremony goes a bit deeper than that. All that we know on the subject is that the emperor prays to Dwayna, and she in turn gives him a gift of magic to spread to his people. What use would the Canthan people need for a yearly godly gift of magic though? Abbadon returned magic to Tyria by unsealing the Seer’s Bloodstone, so they don’t need the gift to do magic. I’m guessing the hint is in the name of the ceremony. The Harvest Ceremony. The emperor would spread the gift of magic to his people by way of securing next year’s harvest.
Other than her giving you the celestial ability, she doesn’t really have anything in common with the celestials, since they are the embodiments of the spirits of the stars. Which Kuunavang isn’t among. She does appear to have a slight air element in there, from her chain lightning ability. I brought up the earth/plant connection from her “Corrupt Dragon Spores” ability. The only other creatures with “spore” abilities are all plants to my knownledge.
In the end, we might just have to agree to disagree on this one. ^^
Though with all the research I did on the Harvest Temple just now, I’m starting to wonder if it was sitting (well, floating) on top of an Elder Dragon like Orr was, because I can see alot of similarities…
Speculation for another day I guess!
(edited by Erukk.1408)
“Legends say a powerful dragon was trapped within the temple and lives there still. " http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Unwaking_Waters_%28Kurzick%29 Sorry, but you’re wrong there. It is not her lair, she did not willingly remain there – otherwise she wouldn’t be trapped.
Regarding the Harvest Ceremony, I dug a bit and it’s all fairly obscure what the purpose was, as there’s only three such lines about it:
“the ruler gave thanks to the gods for another bountiful year.”
“On that most holy day of the Canthan year, when all of the gods were praised to the heavens and the emperor’s divine blessing was placed on the land”
“He struck the moment the emperor had received the second blessing of Holy Dwayna”
All from An Empire Divided.
Though I couldn’t find it, I do recall mention that the magic received was to be spread to the people specifically.
And once more you’re wrong on something: the celestials are not the “emobodiments of the spirits of the stars” – Celestials are spirits of (at least mostly) humans who have transcended into the stars. See:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hai_Jii
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kaijun_Don
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kuonghsang
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tahmu
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Celestial_Pig
At least four of 15-16 celestials were once humans. Why they became celestials isn’t 100% clear, but they exemplified certain traits, and that is implied to be the reasoning.
And I see no similarities with the Harvest Temple and Orr. It was atop a dragon (Kuunavang), and a place related to the Six Gods, but that’s just about it.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
“Legends say a powerful dragon was trapped within the temple and lives there still. " http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Unwaking_Waters_%28Kurzick%29 Sorry, but you’re wrong there. It is not her lair, she did not willingly remain there – otherwise she wouldn’t be trapped.
Regarding the Harvest Ceremony, I dug a bit and it’s all fairly obscure what the purpose was, as there’s only three such lines about it:
“the ruler gave thanks to the gods for another bountiful year.”
“On that most holy day of the Canthan year, when all of the gods were praised to the heavens and the emperor’s divine blessing was placed on the land”
“He struck the moment the emperor had received the second blessing of Holy Dwayna”
All from An Empire Divided.
Though I couldn’t find it, I do recall mention that the magic received was to be spread to the people specifically.
And once more you’re wrong on something: the celestials are not the “emobodiments of the spirits of the stars” – Celestials are spirits of (at least mostly) humans who have transcended into the stars. See:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hai_Jii
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kaijun_Don
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kuonghsang
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tahmu
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Celestial_PigAt least four of 15-16 celestials were once humans. Why they became celestials isn’t 100% clear, but they exemplified certain traits, and that is implied to be the reasoning.
And I see no similarities with the Harvest Temple and Orr. It was atop a dragon (Kuunavang), and a place related to the Six Gods, but that’s just about it.
Kuunavang: “Who are these mortals? Are they really so brave as to enter my domain? No, truly they are fools who wish for a ticket to the Underworld.”
Kuunavang: “Fools! How dare you enter my whirlpool and threaten me with your meager magic. Turn back now or die!”
As for your quoted statements for the Havest Ceremony, how does that not imply having anything to do with the harvest? They emperor gets a divine blessing from Dwayna. He then procedes to place that divine blessing on the land, all the while giving thanks to another bountiful year… of harvest.
I’ll quote the Oracle on celestials.
Suun: “The stars in the night sky cast their light down upon the world, making physical replicas of themselves.”
Suun: “Kai Jun Don, the Kirin. The embodiment of corruption.” _
_Suun: “The being of pure good, turned to pure evil.” _
_Suun: “Quon Sang, the Turtle Dragon. The eternal paradox, not one thing or another.”
_Suun: “A reminder that we will never fully understand the Mists.” _
_Suun: “Hai Ji, the Phoenix, the representation of fiery eternity awaiting those in the Underworld.” _
_Suun: “And finally, the mightiest of them all, Tah Mu, the Dragon.” _
_Suun: “A constant reminder of atrocity, pain, and anguish.” _
_Suun: “You must defeat the avatars of these four celestial bodies if you wish to become Closer to the Stars.” _Like most real cultures, Cantha has a backstory or legend to go along with star constellations. Their story are extremely vague on details, and never mention any specific names other than their own, even the emperor’s in Quon Song’s story. The story behind Tah Mu and the like are just that legends.
Any singular place that holds the constant attention of any human gods should be suspect of a site of an Elder Dragon. It doesn’t help that the Harvest Temple is in a very weird spot, floating over the water in the middle of the Jade Sea. It has Dwayna’s attention once a year, where she gives gifts of magic, and said magic can be used to turn entire seas to jade and forests to stone.
Drakes are lesser dragons as was said in GW 1. Now they are more like elemental giant reptiles that spit breath of various elements. In GW 1, they looked more dragon-like.
Why the sudden change to a gator/croc look?
Yumiko Emi Ishida 80 Ele, Hikari Kyoko Ishida 80 Guard TC-NA. Active RPer of NA megaserver.
@Erukk: Your quotes are from after Kuunavang’s corrupted by Shiro Tagachi. She’s not in her right mind, so I’d hardly call her a credible or reliable source combared to the disembodied and thus-far-not-disproven outpost descriptions.
“It was his touch that corrupted my body and fought for control of my spirit.”
Regarding the Harvest Ceremony – I wasn’t stating that. I was, instead, stating that it’s still rather unclear since so little is mentioned (and for the record “bountiful year” can refer to more than harvests – be it fishing, hunting, or even birth fertility (and as goddess of life, the last seems most likely, otherwise Melandru would make more sense); similarly, “land” can be used to refer to not just the soil and ground, but a nation). It’s a semi-ceeded point on my end, since you didn’t understand that. However, it still remains that nothing at all links Kuunavang to the Harvest Ceremony. Yeah, she was trapped within the so-called Harvest Temple – originally called Kuan Jun Temple – but that doesn’t link her to a ceremony dealing with the gods and not dragons.
On celestials: And? Nothing you quoted says they’re the spirits of the stars. As I said, celestials are spirits of formerly humans (possibly other races too) that have ascended into the starts because they embody certain traits.
And calling those tales to be legends (and thus, you’re implying that they never occured), is rather foolhardy and borderline – no, it is ignoring lore to prove your theory more truthful.
Since you clearly didn’t go reading through properly, allow me to quote and link a different article which outright proves what I was saying:
“Each animal is associated with a set of virtues. The Pig is traditionally honest, tolerant, and supportive in Canthan folktales. Once when humans first walked the world, a man named Chong embodied these virtues, and when the end of his years came, the gods wished to elevate him as a celestial animal. Because he shared those virtues with a humble pig, he chose that as his celestial form. So this year at Shing Jea Monastery, his celestial form descends from the heavens for a great feast. You should not miss it…it will be twelve years before he comes again.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lorespinner_Ri_So
There are more, I believe, which further this.
Also about Kuunavang’s power: “Kuunavang had provided us with her celestial powers” http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shiro%27s_Return
Any singular place that holds the constant attention of any human gods should be suspect of a site of an Elder Dragon. It doesn’t help that the Harvest Temple is in a very weird spot, floating over the water in the middle of the Jade Sea. It has Dwayna’s attention once a year, where she gives gifts of magic, and said magic can be used to turn entire seas to jade and forests to stone.
You do realize that the Six Gods building Arah on top of Zhaitan was pure coincidence, right? They neither knew Zhaitan was there nor was Zhaitan was drew them there. They were drawn to where Arah was by the Artesian Waters, which is magical btw and not powered by Zhaitan. It’s a natural magical source in Orr. And the personal story step titled Cathedral of Silence says – so long as you’re not charr (or at least if you’re human or sylvari) and talk to Trahearne after finishing the mission – that the place drew the Six Gods’ attention from the Mists.
Here’s something: The Throne of Ascension and Hall of Ascension holds the Six Gods attention. OH NOES ELDER DRAGON! The Depths of Madness holds the Six Gods’ attention. OH NOES ELDER DRAGON!
Your reasoning is rather silly, truth be told. There’s a lot of places the Six Gods held attention on. And I honestly don’t think that the Harvest Ceremony’s blessings had to be received at the temple. The Jade Wind itself and the magic bestowed upon the emperor has nothing to do with the location but with the ceremony. And it’s not like a floating location is of anything significant. I mean, Vabbi is stuffed with floating gardens and even a large temple to Lyssa – you going to say there’s an Elder Dragon sleeping under the Mirror of Lyss too?
Drakes are lesser dragons as was said in GW 1. Now they are more like elemental giant reptiles that spit breath of various elements. In GW 1, they looked more dragon-like.
Why the sudden change to a gator/croc look?
You never went to the Crystal Desert or played Nightfall, did you?
Drakes in GW1 only looked outright draconic in Kryta – Fire Drakes, Obsidian Furnace Drakes, Sand Drakes, and Irontooth Drakes look less so, with the last looking almost just like GW2 drakes.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Yeah I played Nightfall, (50/50 hom and gwamm) but never cared for it that much to recall that.
Yumiko Emi Ishida 80 Ele, Hikari Kyoko Ishida 80 Guard TC-NA. Active RPer of NA megaserver.