Renegade Weapon

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Posted by: Kuulpb.5412

Kuulpb.5412

There is a MAJOR issue with Renegade getting shortbow, Kalla scorchrazor wears heavy armour, and wields a Greatsword, Assuming that NPCs are tied to professions with the occasional extra weapon/skill, then Kalla’s channel should have a greatsword, or the statue should show her with a Shortbow. I find the Renegade Anti-Lore in every way, especially since we’re going to Elona, and it isn’t Turai Ossa being channeled. he was In the Living Story for crying out loud, it’d be the PERFECT time to link him to it.

Edited for spelling.

Some days I feel like I can’t go on…. and then I eat Garlic.

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Posted by: Janderson.4670

Janderson.4670

Granted the statue does show her wielding a greatsword, but lore wise a bow for her does fit. Her grandfather (Pyre Fierceshot) and great grandfather (Vatlaaw Doomtooth) were both Rangers that used bows.

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Posted by: Kuulpb.5412

Kuulpb.5412

Yea but that still doesn’t change a few facts – 1 – she wears heavy armour AND a greatsword, effectively meaning she can’t be a ranger. 2 – She doens’t have any relation to Elona :P

Some days I feel like I can’t go on…. and then I eat Garlic.

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Posted by: Janderson.4670

Janderson.4670

Her being a ranger wasn’t the point I was making. The point of her being descent from Rangers was their use of bows. A warrior can also wield a longbow (yes I know that’s not the same as a short bow but a bow nonetheless). And while she may not have a direct relation to Elona, what she did in her life does relate to Elona. She was a renegade which is a person who deserts and betrays an organization, country, or set of principles. By that definition, any person who is willing to go against Palawa Joko in hopes of a better future/life is doing just as Kalla did.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

It’s also worth noting that Kalla was born in a time when picking up a secondary profession wasn’t two unusual.

Regardless, though. Glint didn’t wear a shield. Mallyx didn’t carry around a mace and axe. There’s nothing in GW1 that indicates that Ventari ever touched a staff. And revenants were pretty desperately in need of a second ranged weapon. I don’t mind seeing Kalla use a bow.

As for lore… honestly, this makes more sense to me than Turai. Elona shouldn’t have any revenants yet, and it makes sense that Tyrian revenants would focus on legends from their own past. (Not to mention that Turai used a sword and shield, both of which the revenant already has.)

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

It’s also worth noting that professions in lore are not restricted by armor class or weapons. This is purely mechanical for balance reasons. So just saying “she has heavy armor therefore cannot wield a shortbow” is a false argument, and just because her statue has greatsword doesn’t mean that’s the only weapon she used.

Either way, as Aaron pointed out, the elite specialization’s weapon doesn’t necessarily have to be directly associated with the legendary figure itself – it just needs to be a reflection of the figure’s capabilities.

And along with revenants needing another ranged weapon, there’s a massive underuse of shortbows among professions (prior to this, only thieves and rangers used shortbow – longbow was used by rangers, warriors, and dragon hunters already putting shortbow behind by one)

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Calcifire.1864

Calcifire.1864

Regarding the lack of links to Elona, that is actually pointed out in the game: the NPC that gives a brief overview of the elite specs mentions that he doesn’t actually know much about Renegades besides they channel “Hannah Torchblazer or something”, or even anything about normal Revenants since they are a purely Tyrian thing. (Which makes sense, the profession was pioneered by Rytlock during HoT, and there hasn’t been much contact with Elona since Joko took over, so the player, Rytlock, and the Renegade lore NPC are likely the first three Revenants to ever set foot in Elona)

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

Because the six forbid anyone can wield more than one weapon? Be profiscient in multiple combat styles?
Warriors wield longbows, elementalists and mesmers get swords and claymores, you have yet to make a point why skalla cant wield a shortbow. If anything, her wearing heavy armor makes sense since revenants also wear heavy armor

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Posted by: Kuulpb.5412

Kuulpb.5412

My point is – In the living story, we have come across Turai Ossa, The lore if I recall mentions him using a MASSIVE sword, (same way that the Fellblade in GW1 is now a GS skin in gw2). Kalla Scorchrazor hasn’t had any mention in lore recently, other than Renegade, which I personally feel is a bit.. strange, The Glint’s Shield thing is her wing, which could be used to shield herself with dragon scales, Mallyx was a gorilla who punched things, and a mace is plunt like a fist, I am not sure about the axe the STaff represents a nomadic style like a walking stick.

So I personally just feel that kalla Scorchrazor was added in… With basically no prior mention, other than a statue, If they wanted a ranged weapon, they could have channeled Vatlaaw with Longbow/shortbow, or Pyre with a longbow/shortbow, or even Margrid the Sly, who was an Elonian Ranger.

My reasoning for mentiong the heavy armour and Gs/Shortbow is – We have no mention of kalla using a shortbow, but we have evidence for greatsword, if we say it “fits the theme” wouldn’t a renegade be more about daggers symbolise the whole “backstabbing” thing, like you betray people, which can be referred to as backstabbing. Since Shiro tagatchi came with swords, these could have been thrown daggers.

Some days I feel like I can’t go on…. and then I eat Garlic.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I get where you’re coming from, but Kalla does have more than just a statue. There have to be at least half a dozen NPCs in Ascalon that tell her story, and the cultural impact she’s responsible for is both much closer and much more relevant to the modern day races. I’d be confident in saying that she’s the most talked about character that we don’t actually see.

As for daggers… I think those would be a singularly inappropriate choice, considering Kalla was killed by one. Bonus points for it being during a betrayal.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

If anything about the Renegade doesn’t make sense, it’s the name “Renegade”.

After all…

It’s kind of like forming a group celebrating Jesus and calling the group ISIS.

Ah, the problems with using generic words for group/race names… At least it leads to silly puns as well.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

If anything about the Renegade doesn’t make sense, it’s the name “Renegade”.

After all…

It’s kind of like forming a group celebrating Jesus and calling the group ISIS.

Ah, the problems with using generic words for group/race names… At least it leads to silly puns as well.

Well, technically Jesus is seen a a prophet in Islam so…….

Hate is Fuel.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

As another consideration:

It’s possible that Turai just didn’t have enough of an impact to become a revenant legend.

Consider: Turai’s achievements were basically limited to dealing Palawa Joko a setback (which turned out to be temporary) and failing to achieve Ascension. He didn’t even reach the Hall of Heroes on his own bat – he needed the help of the Prophecies heroes for that.

He’s had enough of an impact to be present as a Mist Champion, but let’s face it, the other Mist Champions are all second-fiddles who became famous because they were part of someone else’s legend. Tybalt rides on the coatstrings of the Whispers Pact Commander. Nika helped the Factions heroes defeat Shiro, but both her and Vizu are part of Shiro’s legend. Grymm Svaard was Cobiah Marriner’s henchman.

In Turai’s case, the legend is probably Palawa Joko. Turai is part of Joko’s legend, and maybe Glint’s, rather than being a legend in his own right.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

As another consideration:

It’s possible that Turai just didn’t have enough of an impact to become a revenant legend.

Consider: Turai’s achievements were basically limited to dealing Palawa Joko a setback (which turned out to be temporary) and failing to achieve Ascension. He didn’t even reach the Hall of Heroes on his own bat – he needed the help of the Prophecies heroes for that.

He’s had enough of an impact to be present as a Mist Champion, but let’s face it, the other Mist Champions are all second-fiddles who became famous because they were part of someone else’s legend. Tybalt rides on the coatstrings of the Whispers Pact Commander. Nika helped the Factions heroes defeat Shiro, but both her and Vizu are part of Shiro’s legend. Grymm Svaard was Cobiah Marriner’s henchman.

In Turai’s case, the legend is probably Palawa Joko. Turai is part of Joko’s legend, and maybe Glint’s, rather than being a legend in his own right.

I dunno, by that logic wouldn’t Kalla be tied to Pyre’s legend? And while technically temporary, two hundred odd years free of Joko’s grip and greatly impacting the culture of an entire continent should be more than ‘second fiddle’ in my opinion. I mean, what else does a guy gotta do?

Hate is Fuel.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

As another consideration:

It’s possible that Turai just didn’t have enough of an impact to become a revenant legend.

I don’t know. I’d argue that Turai was at the very least on par with Ventari, and while his claim to fame was largely a temporary victory, at least it was a victory, unlike a certain melodramatic demon I could name. Even his time in the desert left a mark; no, he didn’t Ascend in the end, but he did build a temple that personally drew the attention of the gods. How many mortals can boast of that?

EDIT:

I dunno, by that logic wouldn’t Kalla be tied to Pyre’s legend?

I’d put it the other way round. Pyre started things off, but he ducked out as quickly as he was able to. Kalla was the one, decades later, who did the heavy lifting of actually defeating the shamans, not to mention the whole equality of the sexes thing. She’s certainly the one better remembered today.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

As Aaron said, while Pyre might have started things off, it was Kalla who finished it off.

In Turai’s case… it’s generally a question of “who really defined the story?”

Going through the various legends:

Jalis, to me, feels like essentially a standin for the Great Dwarf and the events leading to the disappearance of the the dwarfs (an event that had a solid impact on an entire race). One could argue that the Great Destroyer could have been the legend instead, but the two seem to be roughly equal in importance, and since the Great Destroyer was simply Primordus’ general, Jalis is the one we get.

Ventari is probably the most important figure in the founding of the sylvari, with every faction basically being defined by their relationship to the Tablet in one fashion or another. If the Pale Tree had been just another tree, Ventari would be a footnote, but since she turned out to be the mother of the sylvari race, Ventari’s teachings ended up being a defining influence on that race, and that justifies his status as a legend. It’s probably no coincidence that Ventari’s defining feature as a legend is the tablet – one could argue, in fact, that it’s actually the Tablet that is the legend.

Shiro was the defining influence of Cantha of his time… twice. First the Jade Wind, then his second appearance, where all of the heroes that made their names in Cantha at that time did so in relation to their opposition to Shiro. Even after his second death, Shiro’s actions had ramifications that lead to the creation of the Ministry of Purity and which, therefore, appears to have lead to Cantha as it was last we heard of it.

Mallyx probably is the weakest. I generally tend to think of him as being a case of an outright god being too much for a legend, and therefore we get Mallyx essentially as the representative of Abaddon.

Glint… well, I could probably write a whole article on her, and that’s just what we know about. Survival of the elder races, Flameseeker Prophecies, the ongoing legacy… yeah, she’s earned it.

Kalla is essentially representative of the charr revolution, which has been one of the major influences on charr society to the present.

Turai, though…

I’d say the main influence of his time was Palawa Joko. If it wasn’t for Palawa Joko, there’s a good chance that we wouldn’t even know Turai’s name. Now, if Turai had managed to defeat Palawa Joko and succeed in achieving Ascension for the people who followed him, then that might have got him past the line. But in the end… Turai’s defeat of Joko merely delayed Joko’s conquest of Elona, making Joko the more significant figure there: Turai brought a few centuries of reprieve, but ultimately Joko became the dominant influence on Elona. His actions in the desert, in the meantime, mostly had an impact through their influence on the Flameseeker Prophecies – which means that in that respect he’s overshadowed by Glint, who formulated and possibly puppetmastered the Flameseeker Prophecies. All of his actions are defined by their impact on what somebody else was doing – and hence it’s those someone elses that were the defining impacts of their time and, hence, qualify for revenant legend status.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

I don’t know, even your own list shows other legends that seem to be tied to even stronger and arguably more relevant individuals. I just can’t see that this measuring stick that we’re using here actually disregards Turai, but instead supports him.

Hate is Fuel.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

I don’t know, even your own list shows other legends that seem to be tied to even stronger and arguably more relevant individuals. I just can’t see that this measuring stick that we’re using here actually disregards Turai, but instead supports him.

Only if you count gods and Elder Dragons, really. And if you did, gods and Elder Dragons are so powerful they’d overshadow everything else and all of the legends would be gods and Elder Dragons. (Which would also have implications for most races – charr or norn channeling Mallyx is probably fine, but Abaddon would be a whole different matter.)

So it appears that the distinction is “the most significant impact on the events they took part in, without being a god or an Elder Dragon.”

And in Turai’s case… the individual that had the most impact on the events he took part in was Palawa Joko in Elona, and Glint in the Crystal Desert. His own actions were all part of someone else’s legends.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Honestly, I wish they had Jadoth instead of Mallyx, but Mallyx was superior in terms of strength and post-Abaddon leadership (possibly pre-Abaddon leadership too). We don’t really know much about Mallyx, so it could actually go that Mallyx was a very important individual among the Margontes – as we also don’t know much about Margonite history behind their time as humans and their fall in with Abaddon just before the Exodus – the time between the Exodus and Nightfall is one big gap summarized by “they were imprisoned, and they broke out, leading to them taking over the realm”. But no one asked (or explained) how they broke out, how they formed their leadership, which Margonites held sway while Abaddon was alive, etc. etc. For all we know, the answers to all that could end up being “Mallyx.”

But that’s just typical forgotten gaps in lore, and typical HoT-had-little-lore.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Kuulpb.5412

Kuulpb.5412

A few things I can think of regarding turai ossa are – He essentially helped the player character become ascended, he trapped palawa Joko, he ruled a nation. one more thing about the kalla Summon i don’t fully understand is – You’re not really channeling “Kalla” you’re channeling her warband. her Utilities are all member sof the warband, the F1-3 are essentially orders from higher up, so Kalla herself may have done something, but She is sort of… “not present” in the stance, At most she is there in name only.

Some days I feel like I can’t go on…. and then I eat Garlic.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Yeah, I am inclined to think that when you’re channeling Kalla, you’re not channeling Kalla so much as you’re channeling the Charr rebellion, for whom Kalla is the figurehead.

Similarly, when you’re channeling Ventari, you’re effectively channeling sylvari philosophy as represented by the Tablet, and when you’re channeling Jalis, you’re effectively channeling the spirit of the dwarves as a whole. Kalla, Jalis and Ventari are essentially figureheads.

Even Glint has aspects of essentially being the representative of the aims and ideals of the Forgotten – the facets may be more a reflection of how the Forgotten saw Glint than her actual self. Mallyx is essentially representative of the Realm of Torment. Shiro is the legend which you can most say actually behaves like the figure the legend is named for.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

(edited by draxynnic.3719)

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Posted by: Calcifire.1864

Calcifire.1864

As another consideration:

It’s possible that Turai just didn’t have enough of an impact to become a revenant legend.

Consider: Turai’s achievements were basically limited to dealing Palawa Joko a setback (which turned out to be temporary) and failing to achieve Ascension. He didn’t even reach the Hall of Heroes on his own bat – he needed the help of the Prophecies heroes for that.

He’s had enough of an impact to be present as a Mist Champion, but let’s face it, the other Mist Champions are all second-fiddles who became famous because they were part of someone else’s legend. Tybalt rides on the coatstrings of the Whispers Pact Commander. Nika helped the Factions heroes defeat Shiro, but both her and Vizu are part of Shiro’s legend. Grymm Svaard was Cobiah Marriner’s henchman.

In Turai’s case, the legend is probably Palawa Joko. Turai is part of Joko’s legend, and maybe Glint’s, rather than being a legend in his own right.

I dunno, by that logic wouldn’t Kalla be tied to Pyre’s legend? And while technically temporary, two hundred odd years free of Joko’s grip and greatly impacting the culture of an entire continent should be more than ‘second fiddle’ in my opinion. I mean, what else does a guy gotta do?

because Pyre really didn’t do much, he got drunk, trashed a temple, nearly got his warband sacrificed to destroyers, had to beg humans to help, and then decided to chicken out of actually participating in the rebellion he started.

Kalla on the other hand doubled the size of the charr armies, actually led the rebellion, beat the flame legion, united the other legions, and was pretty much the foundation for present-day charr culture.

sure, he was important to the player character because “by balthazar’s burning ballsack! a friendly charr!”, to history he’s actually pretty insignificant

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

….when did he get drunk? I’ve played through EotN dozens of times and I’ve no recollection of any charr drinking back then, much less Pyre.

Hate is Fuel.