Guild Wars 2

The playable races (Human, Charr, Norn, Asura and Sylvari) are frequently referred to as “The five great races of Tyria” by Anet and ingame(?).
So I was curious lorewise what criteria should be met before a race could be acknowledged by the general tyrian population as great. Any ideas?

Just an assumption but I would figure having comparable power to the individual nations of the ‘great races’.

they’re the most populous, powerful and structured races on tyria.

The “great races” are more than subsistence and hunter-gatherer cultures. The “lesser races”:

Hylek – Fragmented exceedingly so there are many many different tribes and there’s a definite aggressive tendency towards other tribes. There is no unity, unlike the Great Races. If they could unify or expand a settlement beyond the stage they’re at now, it might work out. They’re fairly well-prepared, but just aren’t there yet.

Skritt – Scavengers par excellence, but it takes large groups to begin to approach intelligence enough to plan ahead or focus on things beyond the immediate moment. Add that their general tendencies are not to gather in large groups, and there’s a selfishness which keeps them from unifying completely? They don’t work as a “great race”.

Ogres – Hunter-gatherers who are not inclined to so anything more than live for the present and plan only short-term. Like the hylek, they have some significant attributes which show they have promise. Unlike the Great Races, they don’t seem to see a point in taking the step to solidify and take steps forward.

Jotun – Apparently were a Great Race and now are fallen into obscurity with no real focus on getting back. I don’t think there’s a way they will return to prominence.

Quaggan – They’re not nearly focused enough to develop more. They just . . . aren’t. They are almost childlike that way.

Kodan – Hard to say, they aren’t seemingly bothered by anything and their attitude has them being less of a Great Race and more of a shepherd to try to share knowledge and enlightenment.

Dredge – Until they stop trying to kill everything which is not dredge and focus on development of their society instead of slavish devotion to an idea, they’re not going to get anywhere.

Tengu – Until I see more of their civilization now I can’t attest to “Great Race or Not”. Canthan Tengu were incredibly advanced and had the potential to get further in 250 years. Waiting and seeing.

It’s actually “major” race, as I see it frequently.

The term really just refers to the most populous, advanced, unified, and more importantly, playable races. As such, all “non-playable” races are simply condensed into “minor” or “lesser” races – not so much because they’re a lesser but mainly due to being more of a minority in comparison.

Dredge are the only non-playable race that comes close from what we see of the minor race’s civilizations, but their hostility to all other races kind of prevent them from being considered a major race even if you take out the “playable” component.

Honestly, it’s just ArenaNet using “major” or “greater” over “playable.” In lore, these terms don’t really exist. It’s an OOC categorization.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s actually “major” race, as I see it frequently.

The term really just refers to the most populous, advanced, unified, and more importantly, playable races. As such, all “non-playable” races are simply condensed into “minor” or “lesser” races – not so much because they’re a lesser but mainly due to being more of a minority in comparison.

Dredge are the only non-playable race that comes close from what we see of the minor race’s civilizations, but their hostility to all other races kind of prevent them from being considered a major race even if you take out the “playable” component.

Honestly, it’s just ArenaNet using “major” or “greater” over “playable.” In lore, these terms don’t really exist. It’s an OOC categorization.

actually in lore it does exist. the second story arc in the orders part of the story is about choosing a “lesser” or “minor” race to help.

and i think there are some races that don’t fall on that category, which are what i’d call the “immigrants”. they also happen to be the strongest candidates for playable races (as far as player perception goes). the tengu, the kodan, and the largos, none of those 3 are ever considered any less important than the playable races, and they’re just as structured and “evolved” as the playable races. the problem is the kodan that we see are but a fraction of their whole population, the tengu would rather stay inside the dominion of winds, and the largos… who the hell knows what the largos are up to. we see a few of them here and there, mostly just murdering random people, but most of largos society is hidden deep underwater.

The defining characteristics of the “major” races seems to be A). advanced technological and magical capacity (even the norn, who have the least of both, are still ages ahead of all the “lesser” races in at least one of those categories, probably because of) B.) a fostered spirit of cooperation with the other four that leads to the developments and innovations of one spreading and helping the others (points in case: the engineer profession taking root outside the charr, the ubiquity of asura gates in major cities) C.) large enough populations to settle entire regions, and a sense of community binding it all together (contrast the tribes of the lesser races, who even in the most harmless of circumstances tend to be out of contact with each other, and in many cases actively war when happening upon another) and D.) an ‘evil’ faction standing apart from and opposed to the whole (which arguably is game mechanics, but I choose to interpret it as a trend among these societies to reject and expunge the violently unstable aspects of their culture from the whole). It takes some doing to find a “lesser” race meeting any one of these criterion, and I don’t believe any come close to meeting all four, so I am satisfied with them.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

advanced technological and magical capacity (even the norn, who have the least of both, are still ages ahead of all the “lesser” races in at least one of those categories)

why does everyone think of norn as glorified cavemen? just because they’re nomadic adventurers and hunters doesn’t make them primitive. hoelbrak didn’t build itself, you know. and norn are just as magically qualified as any other race.

I didn’t mean it like that. My point was that they are hunters- the vast majority of their population figures that the axe and the bow do their job just fine, and don’t bother with needlessly complicated guns or turrets or spells. It was indeed my point that they are capable with such things despite the low levels of interest displayed towards them. Compare with actual glorified cavemen- grawl, who can barely handles axes and bows and wield only primitive elemental magic, and jotun and ettins, which are even worse off than the grawl in both regards.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I didn’t mean it like that. My point was that they are hunters- the vast majority of their population figures that the axe and the bow do their job just fine, and don’t bother with needlessly complicated guns or turrets or spells. It was indeed my point that they are capable with such things despite the low levels of interest displayed towards them. Compare with actual glorified cavemen- grawl, who can barely handles axes and bows and wield only primitive elemental magic, and jotun and ettins, which are even worse off than the grawl in both regards.

actually if it enables bigger, better hunting, then i’m sure they’re all for guns.

i think you’re mistaking their aesthetics with their interests.

also, shamans. spirits of the wild. how much more magical can you get than a culture that reveres magical beings and uses magic to transform?

They’re the most influential. For instance, if the charr do something it’s more notable than the grawl doing something, because they influence the flow of events more than the rest. This means that what they do touches every race more than the rest and they have the strength to back it. Granted, the Kodan, Tengu, and Largos have the apparent cultural level of a Great Race, but the Kodan were crushed and scattered, not rebuilt yet unlike the Norn, and the Tengu and Largos keep to themselves too much to become a major power in Tyria.

BrunoBRS.5178:

actually if it enables bigger, better hunting, then i’m sure they’re all for guns.

i think you’re mistaking their aesthetics with their interests.

also, shamans. spirits of the wild. how much more magical can you get than a culture that reveres magical beings and uses magic to transform?

I’ve never seen a (non-Vigil) norn use a gun. Have you? And while the shamans are spellcasters, they’re also the only spellcasters. That’s the most niche the magical community gets across all five races. I concede on the totem transformations, but that’s primal spiritualism that requires nothing more than following a spirit, not a sign of magical expertise.

I think you’re ignoring that the aesthetics were designed to reflect the culture.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I personally think these kind of topics are very interesting! >.<
(I do believe the term Major race is more fitting. my mistake.)

The ability to mingle and interact with other races in a non-hostile, if not peaceful manner seem to be a key factor for reaching the level were looking at. This seems to be an obstacle in particular for the dredge, centaur and krait. The isolated Tengu and reclusive Largos is capable of interacton but far below the desired level.
The Kodan however, while not hostile, seems almost too proud of a race to converse with other races in a more open manner, and is mentioned to be reluctant to ask for help against the icebrood. Had they not been a diminished race, would their attitude prevent them from being major?

Some of you mentioned unity as a factor. While it is true that more or less all races has a renegade faction, the issue of the Flame legion comes up. Despite raging constant war against the unified forces of the remaining legions for 250 years, while at the same time deal with the ascalonian ghosts who plauges the land, they are still holding their ground. We don’t know the full extent of any single legion, but this would seem to indicate that the FL holds a fair share of the total charr-population. Is charr a unified race? This might also apply to sylvari to a lesser extent with the NCourt. Is the Sylvari in a civil war?
In contrast we have the Krait which seems to be more or less fully united (although I’m not sure if the recent Toxic krait is considered a renegade factor from the whole).

Another factor mentioned is a society that is advanced/structured in some way. How do we judge this, purely technological or are we looking at something else? The asura and charr has certainly contributed with major innovations in recent centuries/decades and the human has historically shown to be able of massive accomplishments (The Great wall, DR, Ebonhawke). How do we evaluate the sylvari, which is primarily plantsbased?
The norn are shown to be able to raise impressive structures as shown with Hoelbrak, but what else stands out? also worth to note is that the norn does not have a official nation. It is more of a general area which is inhabited by the majority of the norn population.
The Krait and Dredge are certainly able of large scale constructions, and the dredge engineering seems to be on par with charr at least.
Sadly all we have seen from the centaurs are war camps, but they seems to be of an advanced military mind which is effectively putting heavy pressure on the Seraph, seeing as they have been able to push the frontline very deep into Kryta.

The current major races are certainly influential. Sylvari, not counting the recently formed Pact, seemed to be the only race unified to effectively combat the threat of the dragons and showing up accordingly near Risen areas. Asura have more or less terraformed their province to their liking and their inventions reaching all over the continent. Charr has fiercely defined what is their territory and defends it with all their might. The human nation of Kryta, while not large ingame, I believe is very large in lore if I remember correctly.
The Shiverpeaks tho are a interesting area. The Norn have claimed the old territories previously held by the dwarves and is considered the dominating race, but the Dregde seems sometimes to have a larger reach and firmer hold of the mountains. What does the Norn bring to the table?

(The reason I asked the question here in the first place is that I pondered how Sylvari could rise up to be a major race in a mere 25 years.)

The major-races thing also strikes me mostly as differing between player races and ‘everything else except the real baddies’.

Tho if I had to guess lore-wise, I’d just say the main-difference is what’s a civilization and what’s not. Also it seems to be a flexible differentiation..

Taking all intelligent races in GW2 and not just the currently ingame defined as minor ones in account…

I’d say (Opinionplz) Hylek, Skritt, Ogres, Grawl, Centaurs, Jotun and Quaggans are definitely lesser races.
- Jotun used to be a major race, became a lesser race because Jotun
- Quaggan are likely to have been a major race too before Bubble’s awakening. They had a royal family once which suggests civilization. But that’s gone now.
- The Skritt king in Brisban says he strives for the Skritt to become a civilization.

Then there’s sentient races that are even less advanced than the lesser races. Namely Trolls, Harpies, Giants and Ettins.

Then there’s major races. IMO that’s Humans, Charr, Norn, Sylvari, Asura, Dredge, Krait and Tengu.
- Dredge are definitely a civilization. A mostly hostile one but yeah. (Revolution where are you)
- Tengu are an isolated civilization. But we know they’re structured into different houses and have an emperor. We just don’t see much of them (yet).
- Krait are… difficult. From the blog-post about them we know that the ship-wreck towers we also see ingame are NOT their real architecture. It’s merely halfkittened structures for their slaves. Their living grounds are described as palatial. Tho even after their Exodus they seem to be united and all we observe them doing now is what they can do with scraps. The Toxic Alliance seemed to me more like the other Krait cities sending reinforcements to Kessex rather than that single settlement’s doing. (In the developer LS of the Tower of Nightmares the devs stated that they went along with the black-nuclear-green-glow design decision because they loved the idea of them changing due to expose to the tower’s spore. So it makes sense that not all krait over Tyria have a sudden color-swap despite possibly helping the cause. The few toxic krait at the other places seem to suggest that too.) The Krait seem to be in a limbo, they were definitely a major race before Bubbles. Now they’re not really a lesser race, not quite fallen, still tending to major but not as clearly as the others.

Then there’s category ??? starring the Largos, the Kodan and the race that gets forgotten more than the Forgotten, the Karka.
- Karka we know nothing about. They have a queen and a hive. Also follow ancients. They seem to be able to communicate, but from the tidbits we have they’re either glorified murder-crab-bees or maybe, maybe, maybe a bit more. MMMMRRPHPHPH?
- Largos are too ninja. Prolly a future major race.
- Kodan are in a kinda similar situation to the Krait but not. Result of their Exodus is that we don’t know much of their original civilization. We also don’t know just how many Kodan there still are. It’s difficult to tell if the few settlements and the refugees from FGS are all there is or if in Lore there’s still waves of refugees arriving. They’re also really scattered. Possibly a major race that became a lesser race, but there’s too much ??? about their original and current situation to clearly determine that.

^ we actually have a lot of information on kodan society, customs, and just how big they were (very). we only see a tiny fraction of the kodan civilization, the sanctuary ships that made it to tyria (and only the parts that didn’t melt and break off on the journey). there’s a good chance that a good chunk of kodan civilization was lost to jormag though. but i’d definitely classify them as “major” if, you know, we actually could see just how many kodan are still there on the northern sea. the few kodan we see are the ones that sailed into the continent (through a conveniently located continental sea, thanks jormag) and down south.

as for the karka, see my post on the other thread. i’m sticking with “glorified giant enemy crabs”.

@BrunoBRS

Information on their religion isn’t necessarily directly information on their civilization. It’s only a part of it. We know about their religion and that they’re divided into tribes which live on their respective sanctuaries and the whole deal with the voice and the claw for each one. Like we know they’re mostly a peaceful race, but we don’t know how far conflict between tribes goes as each has its own religious interpreter. We don’t know why they’re divided in tribes in the first place or if it’s just labelled ‘tribes’ and more like settlements. But given the different voices that seems unlikely. And we don’t know how far their magic and their technology goes either. We know the Kodan voice’s mind can access the mists so that’s something interesting. We also know they’re capable of building those huge sanctuaries.
So I wouldn’t classify them as minor race at all before Jormag, I’m definitely with you on them being major.

It just boils down to “Are they a fallen major race or are they still a major race and the rest is elsewhere.” And yeah without the info on the rest of the Kodan we can’t say anything for sure. Hence why I put them in ??? Because we really can’t know at this point.

I’m going to give my view on this, building a bit off of you all’s comments.

First off, the way I see it, a race must not be almost exclusively hostile to all others. Anet themselves refer to the Krait as a “black hat”, an outright evil race (their alliance with the Nightmare Court renegades notwithstanding, both sides seemed ready to stab the other in the back when the time was right).

The dredge aren’t much better, though at least there are the few that are trying to revolt and whom if nothing else are willing to except outside help.
It is my opinion that regardless of these (and similar) races’ unity or technological advancements that they can only be a negative force within Tyria.

The jotun and the grawl aren’t much better in these regards. We do meet a few friendly tribes of both, but so many more are outright hostile. This only adds on to the main problem of how primitive these two races are (it seems that the grawl only recently reached the level of having a spoken language, which says a lot). I think the grawl have centuries before they will be more then just the savages that they mostly are now. And the jotun will most likely continue to regress.

The skritt are strange with their ability to become more intelligent when in larger groups, so they could conceivably form a civilization overnight with a large enough group (like Skrittsburg) and then lose it the next day if they were scattered by an attack or some other disaster. Also add in that any individual or small group that gets too far away from the population center would probably regress makes for more of a tenuous situation. They most likely cannot become a true major race because of their…not sure what to call it, hive mind doesn’t seem right…but this part of their nature is as much a hindrance as a boon really. That said the skritt will still have a part in Tyria, just not a major one.

Both the kodan and the quaggan are recent refuges. Before becoming a major race they would first need to settle in and reestablish themselves. The quaggan, whom have probably been within Tyria a bit longer the kodan, are still very scattered. I’ve not seen much in regards to their various communities communicating and helping each other out. Between the kraits attacks and the DSD’s alleged influence killing their leaders and collapsing their civilization, they now seem to lack cohesiveness needed. The quaggan would also need to temper their more pacifistic tendencies, though I think that they are already starting to do so going by some parts of the PS. For these and other reasons they can’t be more then a minor race at this time.

The kodan are more of a recent arrival so regardless of how many more may have survived Jormag, they aren’t a major power in Tyria itself yet. They are only refuges really. In regards to the above discussion about the details of their civilization, it seems to me that their religion does mostly define them. They hardly seem to speak of anything but Koda and Balance. Things like the tribes and such seem to be mostly minor details in comparison.

I know I haven’t touched on Hylek or ogres but this is turning into a larger wall of text then I’d meant. So I’ll end with what may be the closest to major races; the Tengu and the Largos. With the tengu it seems they have a strong nation within the Walls of the Dominion, and unless there is evidence of the contrary the only reason they aren’t a major race is that they do not interact or effect the rest of Tyria with the strict isolation of the Dominion.
From some of the text from the female largos (I forget her name) it seems they do have a potentially well established and advanced civilization. But in many ways they are even more secretive then the tengu, so their effect on Tyria is similarly limited. They may not even be from Tyria. And there is the whole murdering people in most of the encounters with them, which if continues to be a trend with them would bring my first rule into effect.

ElysianEternity.6215:

@BrunoBRS

Information on their religion isn’t necessarily directly information on their civilization. It’s only a part of it. We know about their religion and that they’re divided into tribes which live on their respective sanctuaries and the whole deal with the voice and the claw for each one. Like we know they’re mostly a peaceful race, but we don’t know how far conflict between tribes goes as each has its own religious interpreter. We don’t know why they’re divided in tribes in the first place or if it’s just labelled ‘tribes’ and more like settlements. But given the different voices that seems unlikely. And we don’t know how far their magic and their technology goes either. We know the Kodan voice’s mind can access the mists so that’s something interesting. We also know they’re capable of building those huge sanctuaries.
So I wouldn’t classify them as minor race at all before Jormag, I’m definitely with you on them being major.

It just boils down to “Are they a fallen major race or are they still a major race and the rest is elsewhere.” And yeah without the info on the rest of the Kodan we can’t say anything for sure. Hence why I put them in ??? Because we really can’t know at this point.

well actually, if you talk with every single kodan NPC you come across (like i do :P), you end up learning a lot. plus there’s this blog post with a lot of info too.

to answer those questions!

they don’t live in “tribes”, they live in sanctuaries, full fledged city-ships built on ice. those tribes/settlements we see in game are from kodan refugees that lost their sanctuaries. they are very closely tied together as a race, even if each ship has their own Voice and Claw. their religion is the foundation of their society and behavior, and they seem to be above petty things as internal conflict. it’s for that reason (among others) that they believe that the norn are actually a group of kodans that “lost themselves from the pack” so to speak.

they certainly have the technology, it’s at the very least on par with norn technology. they can maintain large cities and have enough knowledge of engineering to make large ships… and then they make the cities and the ships a single thing. they forge their own weapons and armor, and most kodans i’ve seen (though my memory might be fuzzed because of Edge of the Mists) are capable of magic.

the only thing between confirmation that they’re a major race or not is “how many of them are left”.

A minor clarification, Bruno: the kodan do live in tribes, with 1 tribe per sanctuary. From the blog post you linked:

Originally from beyond the northern Shiverpeaks, the kodan tribes inhabit floating iceberg fortresses called Sanctuaries; one per tribe, they live and travel upon these mighty ice peaks, building entire cities within their shelter.

There’s more, such as the “lost tribe” believed by some Voices to have become the norn, but the rest is supplimentary.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

A minor clarification, Bruno: the kodan do live in tribes, with 1 tribe per sanctuary. From the blog post you linked:

Originally from beyond the northern Shiverpeaks, the kodan tribes inhabit floating iceberg fortresses called Sanctuaries; one per tribe, they live and travel upon these mighty ice peaks, building entire cities within their shelter.

There’s more, such as the “lost tribe” believed by some Voices to have become the norn, but the rest is supplimentary.

yes, you could call them tribes, but like i pointed out, they’re less tribe and more “city on a ship”. since there’s only one “tribe” per sanctuary, it’s easier to just say they live in sanctuaries. tribes might give the wrong idea too.

and i believe i do mention the lost tribe, though they don’t specify it as a tribe and more as a group.

One more issue with the kodan: while they are capable of making magnificent structures, much of the body of their engineering knowledge pertains to working with ice. Ditto for their magic and weapons, and that’s already causing them problems as they come further south- even in Frostgorge, their Sanctuaries are already starting to deteriorate. If they end up farther south, which at this point seems likely, much of the tangible bits of their civilization will become useless to them, and they’ll be left with what we see in Song of Final Exile or Haymal Gore.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

One more issue with the kodan: while they are capable of making magnificent structures, much of the body of their engineering knowledge pertains to working with ice. Ditto for their magic and weapons, and that’s already causing them problems as they come further south- even in Frostgorge, their Sanctuaries are already starting to deteriorate. If they end up farther south, which at this point seems likely, much of the tangible bits of their civilization will become useless to them, and they’ll be left with what we see in Song of Final Exile or Haymal Gore.

just because they used to live on giant iceberg cities doesn’t mean carving ice is all they can do.

shelter: there are quite a few kodan settlements that are full-fledged villages, built on nothing but steel and wood. the kodan are also adaptable, with a few having made home on lion’s arch (god knows how they survive the tropical heat under that furcoat, but hey, charrs seem to manage).

weapons: i have a feeling that the kodan weapons aren’t normal ice, but magical. a sword made of ice would break on the first hit, no matter how thick you made it. and yet, kodan weapons stand. but even if they couldn’t use their ice magic to craft weapons, they are proficient with steel (just look at their armor), so they are capable of working with the same materials as the other races.

the kodan are used to the extreme heat of the northern seas, but it’s one of their dogmas to go where the balance requires them to go, and adapt to that situation. they might look like a bunch of polar bears, but they’re a wise, skilled, adaptable race. they just had the bad luck to be jormag’s primary target, much like the asuras and primordus (except the asuras have had 250 years to change from “refugees” to “dominant civilization”, the kodan have had a few years at best since arriving on tyria)

Adapting is one thing. Contributing is another. They could be brought into the community, and so become a major race, but unlike the asura, or charr, or even humans or the Pale Tree, I don’t see them making any contributions to it as a whole.

well, about as much contribution as a human or norn. being a major race doesn’t mean “being the best”. their technological level is at worse on the same level as norn, and their intelligence is high enough to learn from others and be just as effective.