Guild Wars 2

Simple question really. What are we going to do with the MA, AB and TA? Do we chase them till the ends of the world? Or do we forget about them, until they become a major threat again?

I ask this because a number of players have said that they felt bad for killing Scarlet. And this is shocking. Scarlet killed thousands of civilians and soldiers. Even if we capture her, she will certainly be executed.

I guess this question expands into: Do we want to be that ideal hero with a no killing no matter what rule? Or do we want to be the dark knight, doing whatever it takes to protect the people?

Although this is funny, considering that we had been killing MA, AB and TA all along.

Anyways, I am with the retribution/dark knight camp.

It is not that I am angry. But it is obvious that if the Pact do not annihilate all members of these alliances, they will grow into major threats in the future. The Pact must kill all of them while they are weak. Give them no time to regroup.

We will find them. We will find their family and friends. We will torture them, until they give us the info we need to find the next member. When they are no longer useful we will execute them.

Munich (2005), Kryta edition. Start the manhunt.

We must set a clear example. People foolish enough to try to wake up an elder dragon is well beyond any sort of redemption and Moral Event Horizon. We will send so much fear and terror that no one will ever do something so foolish ever again.

You?

It’s quite possible to not eliminate them all, only those within Lion’s Arch and are foolish enough to rush out into the open where they can be found and destroyed. So as much as you want to go all Dark Knight of Baron on them . . .

I don’t expect it will be useful if some of them go to ground. The Aetherblades are likely holed up somewhere in the Mists, the Molten Alliance can dig themselves a hole and seal it off behind them, and the Toxic Alliance might make hallucinations of themselves to leave behind rather than the real thing.

Even if we could drop the magical equivalent of a tactical nuke on Lion’s Arch . . . today . . . we wouldn’t be able to be sure we got everything. So, no, nuking it from orbit is not the only way to be sure.

I’m with the camp of eliminating all hostile combatants on the ground right now with extreme prejudice (especially the asura) and if any crop up later, apply full lethal force until they don’t crop up anymore.

It worked on the White Mantle.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m with the camp of eliminating all hostile combatants on the ground right now with extreme prejudice (especially the asura) and if any crop up later, apply full lethal force until they don’t crop up anymore.

It worked on the White Mantle.

Not quite, see: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/White_Mantle

It’s even suspected that some of the ministers are in the White Mantle.

CHIPS.6018:

I ask this because a number of players have said that they felt bad for killing Scarlet. And this is shocking. Scarlet killed thousands of civilians and soldiers. Even if we capture her, she will certainly be executed.

I guess this question expands into: Do we want to be that ideal hero with a no killing no matter what rule? Or do we want to be the dark knight, doing whatever it takes to protect the people?

Different people play in different ways. For me personally, killing during a fight, in self defense is regrettable but ultimately my opponent’s own choice due to not yielding. Often they either were the agressors, or in an area where they could expect conflict (i.e. the Mists). However, I personally draw the line at butchering defeated opponents. Scarlet may attack those that cannot defend themselves, but my character does not. Just because she’s caused so much trouble doesn’t mean she should just be killed outright. Even if just to interrogate her first.

Many who live deserve to die, and many who die deserve to live. Can you give life to those? If not then don’t be so hasty to deal out death!

People foolish enough to try to wake up an elder dragon is well beyond any sort of redemption and Moral Event Horizon.

That’s just your opinion. If there was a plan to wake an elder dragon prematurely so it’d be weaker and easier to defeat…you’d execute them on the spot?

There’s Aetherblades and Toxic Alliance out in the open world. Even those Mai Trin recordings in the Edge of the Mists are apparently still being altered. I think they’ll be around later.

The Molten Alliance though… harder to tell. I somehow doubt Anet’s going to close those guys up though.

Diovid.9506:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m with the camp of eliminating all hostile combatants on the ground right now with extreme prejudice (especially the asura) and if any crop up later, apply full lethal force until they don’t crop up anymore.

It worked on the White Mantle.

Not quite, see: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/White_Mantle

It’s even suspected that some of the ministers are in the White Mantle.

Like I said, it worked on the White Mantle. And still works. Someone crops up as White Mantle, they die. Or they keep their heads down and hands out of things, and everyone wins.

This reminds me, need to start manufacturing evidence asura joined the White Mantle.

I don’t think Caudecus is really keeping his hands out of things. And he’s alive.

It seems possible to me that all of the Molten Alliance, Aether Blades, and Toxic Alliance forces that continued to follow Scarlet went to Lion’s Arch, that the attack on the city was the, ‘All or Nothing,’ moment for those three factions, and that they’ll be wiped out and any possible survivors will simply return to their respective factions. Molten Alliance Dredge would return to the Moletariate, while their Charr would return to the Flame Legion. Toxic Alliance Nightmare Court Sylvari would return to the Nightmare Court, while Krait return to… Krait. That sort of thing.

In short, I wouldn’t be surprised if these Alliances were destroyed or disbanded.

Vexander.9850:

It seems possible to me that all of the Molten Alliance, Aether Blades, and Toxic Alliance forces that continued to follow Scarlet went to Lion’s Arch, that the attack on the city was the, ‘All or Nothing,’ moment for those three factions, and that they’ll be wiped out and any possible survivors will simply return to their respective factions. Molten Alliance Dredge would return to the Moletariate, while their Charr would return to the Flame Legion. Toxic Alliance Nightmare Court Sylvari would return to the Nightmare Court, while Krait return to… Krait. That sort of thing.

In short, I wouldn’t be surprised if these Alliances were destroyed or disbanded.

The Toxic Kraits are (according to Angel) considered outsiders to the original Kraits. So they can “never” return.

The other factions, maybe.

CHIPS.6018:

Vexander.9850:

It seems possible to me that all of the Molten Alliance, Aether Blades, and Toxic Alliance forces that continued to follow Scarlet went to Lion’s Arch, that the attack on the city was the, ‘All or Nothing,’ moment for those three factions, and that they’ll be wiped out and any possible survivors will simply return to their respective factions. Molten Alliance Dredge would return to the Moletariate, while their Charr would return to the Flame Legion. Toxic Alliance Nightmare Court Sylvari would return to the Nightmare Court, while Krait return to… Krait. That sort of thing.

In short, I wouldn’t be surprised if these Alliances were destroyed or disbanded.

The Toxic Kraits are (according to Angel) considered outsiders to the original Kraits. So they can “never” return.

The other factions, maybe.

Good point. However, I remember another post somewhere on the forums by a user speculating that the Toxic Alliance Krait, as they’re all of the Toxic Variety after the tower event, may be mind controlled by Scarlet through the toxins. In short, I would imagine -all- of the Toxic Krait are in Lion’s Arch, and they’ll all fight to the death.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I don’t think Caudecus is really keeping his hands out of things. And he’s alive.

Prove he’s White Mantle and he’s next, instead of those smug, potato-headed asura.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I don’t think Caudecus is really keeping his hands out of things. And he’s alive.

Prove he’s White Mantle and he’s next, instead of those smug, potato-headed asura.

Because the Asuran race already have their need for a fanatical group of racists bent on world domination filled by the Inquest.

Plus, the Inquest covers dental…

Erukk.1408:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I don’t think Caudecus is really keeping his hands out of things. And he’s alive.

Prove he’s White Mantle and he’s next, instead of those smug, potato-headed asura.

Because the Asuran race already have their need for a fanatical group of racists bent on world domination filled by the Inquest.

Plus, the Inquest covers dental…

No, because I can’t kill asura fast enough to get rid of them all.

Since we never had a plausible reason why these groups continued working for Scarlet in the first place, despite everything, it’s pretty much impossible to tell what they will do now. Only the aetherblades have a named leader, Mai Trin, so the rest of these nameless entities might all go home. I wouldn’t be surprised if the storyline didn’t pick up the pieces from Scarlet’s inventions later on so that the players can use her creations against the dragon.

Vexander.9850:

It seems possible to me that all of the Molten Alliance, Aether Blades, and Toxic Alliance forces that continued to follow Scarlet went to Lion’s Arch, that the attack on the city was the, ‘All or Nothing,’ moment for those three factions, and that they’ll be wiped out and any possible survivors will simply return to their respective factions. Molten Alliance Dredge would return to the Moletariate, while their Charr would return to the Flame Legion. Toxic Alliance Nightmare Court Sylvari would return to the Nightmare Court, while Krait return to… Krait. That sort of thing.

In short, I wouldn’t be surprised if these Alliances were destroyed or disbanded.

The Flame Legion and krait cannot return to their original groups – Vexander said why for krait, but the Flame Legion are more or less in the same boat. The Nightmare Court of the Toxic Alliance were always a splinter faction so I think they’ll just remain such – just far smaller.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I don’t think Caudecus is really keeping his hands out of things. And he’s alive.

Prove he’s White Mantle and he’s next, instead of those smug, potato-headed asura.

Never said he’s next. Just that he’s had his hands on things but isn’t dead yet. He’s the defacto leader for the anti-Jennah regiment, he hires bandits as personal bodyguards, whom are known to work for him elsewhere, and are known to be White Mantle controlled.

We could possibly round as many of them up and put them on trial for war crimes. Those too insane or unrepentant would be jailed for a long time or used as Asuran experiments. *cackle

Yeah, it’s the old hypocrisy of slaughtering countless goons, but once a vilain with an actual name pops up, people want to spare them because they don’t want to “become their enemy.”

Ironically, NinjaChris, it’s the opposite in this game for what enemies do to make it “hated by players” list.

Kill named NPCs? No problem! You’re a good guy.

Kill a generic “Citizen” NPC? Oh, it’s on now!

I actually wanted to write something more well-thought out and so, but I’m a little too dumbfounded how the fanbase is suddenly turning Scarlet into a draco in leatherpants.

That’s ..actually also kind of a bad impression to give the writers since it implies that people are positively amazed with the quality of this writing when it’s actually still mediocre. I hope they continue pushing their limits instead of stopping just because their ‘expectations’ were met.

Anyways, I’m pretty sure the alliances will slowly die out one after another by the hands of players. There shouldn’t be too many left after LA. Emphasis on should. (how big are those armies anyway) The only one I can see sticking around for much longer than the others is the Aetherblades.

ElysianEternity.6215:

I actually wanted to write something more well-thought out and so, but I’m a little too dumbfounded how the fanbase is suddenly turning Scarlet into a draco in leatherpants.

That’s ..actually also kind of a bad impression to give the writers since it implies that people are positively amazed with the quality of this writing when it’s actually still mediocre. I hope they continue pushing their limits instead of stopping just because their ‘expectations’ were met.

Anyways, I’m pretty sure the alliances will slowly die out one after another by the hands of players. There shouldn’t be too many left after LA. Emphasis on should. (how big are those armies anyway) The only one I can see sticking around for much longer than the others is the Aetherblades.

I could possibly seeing the Aetherblades turn side at the end and join Lion’s Arch.

I don’t think Lion’s Arch would let them happen.

Besides, given the new lines from holographic Mai Trin about digging in at the Edge of the Mists, I think there are already plans for Mai Trin to return in the future with some Aetherblades.

Calling it now: Mai Trin = Scarlet 2.0 (but hopefully better written!) in that she’ll be leading the unified TA/MA/AB

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I don’t think Lion’s Arch would let them happen.

Besides, given the new lines from holographic Mai Trin about digging in at the Edge of the Mists, I think there are already plans for Mai Trin to return in the future with some Aetherblades.

Calling it now: Mai Trin = Scarlet 2.0 (but hopefully better written!) in that she’ll be leading the unified TA/MA/AB

Well until there is an Airship vs Airship battle between the Pact and Aetherblades, they cannot die out. What’s the point of giving them airships in the first place? They cannot be sky pirates by name only. :P

NinjaChris.9340:

Yeah, it’s the old hypocrisy of slaughtering countless goons, but once a vilain with an actual name pops up, people want to spare them because they don’t want to “become their enemy.”

I think it is human nature to avoid killing people that we know. This by itself isn’t wrong.

But the problem with Scarlet is we barely know her. She is a mad woman that wants to wake the Jungle Elder Dragon. She said so herself :“The world will bow down to a new master.”

So she knowingly wants to wake the Jungle Elder Dragon, and call it her master. She is putting millions of lives at risk. Whatever “Morale Event Horizon” she once had was long past. She must be killed.

If the game want us to feel bad for killing a villain, the game need to give us good reasons why. Maybe the villain was trying to save someone else’s life. Maybe the villain have noble goals. Maybe the villain was the main character’s former lover/partner. etc etc

E.g.
-When the lover of the main character, Janet, betrays him for money in Strike Commander.

-When the former partner/teacher of the main character in Aquanox 2, May Ling, betrays him because he rejected her love.

I felt so bad that I tried to disable her ship instead of killing her. But the mission cannot be completed unless I kill her, so I had to shoot down her already disabled ship. I felt pretty bad about that.

The saddest part is in the after briefing, a guy told the main character that “You couldn’t have done this differently. You had to kill her” Well actually, with May Ling’s ship disabled, so she is no longer a threat to the mission, there was absolutely no need to kill her. She wasn’t some crazy evil chick. She was just a jealous girl angry at the main character.

Last picture was me looking at May Ling in the face, seconds before needlessly killing her.

I say kill all sylvari, starting with the pale tree herself! Hand them over to the charr to use as firewood at meatoberfest.

DarcShriek.5829:

I say kill all sylvari, starting with the pale tree herself! Hand them over to the charr to use as firewood at meatoberfest.

I’ll only come on board if we also take out Rata Sum.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DarcShriek.5829:

I say kill all sylvari, starting with the pale tree herself! Hand them over to the charr to use as firewood at meatoberfest.

I’ll only come on board if we also take out Rata Sum.

It’s a deal!

As someone who plays a Sylvari main, all I can say is: “It’s OK, there’s more where we came from.” :P

The factions they came from weren’t on our good list to begin with, except the dredge. It doesn’t matter if they’re not following Scarlet anymore; we kill all Flame Legion, Krait, Nightmare Court, and bandits on sight. We’ll continue to do so, whatever they’re calling themselves.

The dredge that joined the MA probably aren’t the peace loving sort, so we’ll wind up killing them when they attack a random priory researcher or whatever trouble they decide to cause.

Heraldusluminare.2946:

As someone who plays a Sylvari main, all I can say is: “It’s OK, there’s more where we came from.” :P

That’s why we’re gonna burn down Pale Tree. Weiners and Marshmallows on me!

I’d say lets mind control them with inquest technology and then force them to fight at the front rows in the battle against Mordremoth.

Because.. you know.. We are not the Heroes that Tyria deservers, but the ones it needs right now.. or.. wait.. we are the heroes, that Tyria wants, but not the ones it deserves… who its supposed to be looking for, but not who it finds in the end? Not the wrong ones, but not the right ones either? Nah… its complicated…

Miroe.2054:

I’d say lets mind control them with inquest technology and then force them to fight at the front rows in the battle against Mordremoth.

Because.. you know.. We are not the Heroes that Tyria deservers, but the ones it needs right now.. or.. wait.. we are the heroes, that Tyria wants, but not the ones it deserves… who its supposed to be looking for, but not who it finds in the end? Not the wrong ones, but not the right ones either? Nah… its complicated…

Its actually not complicated. Read some of the writtings by Niccolo Machiavelli. :P

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/n/niccolo_machiavelli.html
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/16201.Niccol_Machiavelli

Niccolo Machiavelli:
-It is far better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both. It is much more secure to be feared than to be loved.
-Men should be either treated generously or destroyed, because they take revenge for slight injuries, for heavy ones they cannot. If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. Whoever conquers a free town and does not demolish it commits a great error and may expect to be ruined himself.
-There is no avoiding war; it can only be postponed to the advantage of others. War should be the only study of a prince. He should consider peace only as a breathing-time, which gives him leisure to contrive, and furnishes as ability to execute, military plans. You cannot have good laws without good arms, and where there are good arms, good laws inevitably follow.
-It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have free scope.

GW2 translation:
-If the Pact want to hold onto its power over Kryta and survive as an organization, it can go 2 ways: Ether be loved, or be feared. It is obvious that the current and future enemies of Kryta do not love the Pact. So fear is the only way to control them. Some of the potential future enemies will fear the Pact so much, that these enemies will never exist at all. This reduces the size of the future threats and make them easier to control and destroy.
-When the Pact wins a battle against a strong enemy, it must push forward until that enemy is utterly destroyed so it will never be able to seek revenge. If not, the Pact will face its own destruction in the future. Look at the White Mantle. Clearly Machiavelli was right.
-War cannot be avoided. The key is the push when the Pact have the advantage, instead of waiting until the advantage belongs to the enemies. And in times of “peace”, the Pact should equip itself for the next future threat.
-It is the job of a good leader (The Pact), on behave of his/her people, to assume that the enemies are purely evil. And when uncontrolled and unbounded, these evil forces will act in the most evil and wicked ways in the future. If the Pact do not assume and act according to this, the Pact cannot protects its people and faces its own demise.

Machiavelli is probably right. Listen to him!

Miroe.2054:

I’d say lets mind control them with inquest technology and then force them to fight at the front rows in the battle against Mordremoth.

Because.. you know.. We are not the Heroes that Tyria deservers, but the ones it needs right now.. or.. wait.. we are the heroes, that Tyria wants, but not the ones it deserves… who its supposed to be looking for, but not who it finds in the end? Not the wrong ones, but not the right ones either? Nah… its complicated…

So, we’re Torchwood?

What hit me most, was when Scarlet said “Don’t you want to know why I did it?” roughly phrasing her here.
I’ve taken obvious note that the style in which the VA has delivered her lines has changed dramatically in direction (kudos to this, a fantastic change really), but the way it was delivered signified that she was in quite a state of shock, furstration and despair that nobody was really interested as to WHY she did everything she did, which on a subconscious level may have been her reaching out in a very subtle way for an understanding. She wanted people to be around for people to know the purpose of her actions, and she never got to see it through.

And what’s more…I’m not even sure that SHE fully understood why she was doing what she was doing, which would be simply unimaginably frustrating for her.

She was also what I’d consider to be ‘sick’. Mordremoth’s corruption is a sickness. A mental sickness.

In the long run no matter how heinous her actions were, it was this sickness that drove her. Whilst she did awaken from the dream with what could be considered a jarring amount of confidence, I don’t think her persona alone would have eventuated in her doing what she did. Mordremoth took advantage of her thirst for knowledge, that’s why people feel sympathetic to her.

It’s just really tragic and that’s how I sympathise with her. Regardless of this, she had to go. Dragon corruption isn’t able to be dealt with any other way (the ritual in Orr can not be realistically used within an argument in this case). It’s a real “What a shame this happened” feeling.

Ergo, it has nothing to do with redemption. That concept is flawed in this scenario. People who are diseased mentally or physically don’t need to seek redemption.

It was Ceara who was sick.