Guild Wars 2

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/We-still-haven-t-had-a-final-word-on-racials/first#post5490661
here Roy tells us that revenant won’t have racial skills. This makes norns lose the ability to transform, making all of norn revenant players similar to Jora from gw1 who had a huge plot about regaining this ability.

(not to mention sylvari players losing their ability to connect with nature/pale tree, asuras using their golems, humans praying to the gods <aren’t revenants more likely to talk with gods?>)

How do you feel about it? I’m pretty annoyed. Not that I’m RPer, but I like immersive games.

Well it is part of their lore why Revy’s can’t use racial skills.

Their exposure to the Mist has given them their powers and abilities but the price they pay is to lose their old powers and abilities.

You’re incorrect, havrouns can walk into the mists without any restrictions and they don’t lose any ability

Not to mention Charr racials are just using tools. Did the charr lose the ability to hold and shoot a gun or throw down a mine? Did he lose the ability to call in his warband?

Seems like oddly specific skills to lose.

This isn’t lore at all but pure 100% mechanics – and lazy ones at that, given that they could rework them just for the revenant.

After all, the engineer gets unique racial skills (except for elites but that’s also recent laziness on the devs part).

Gameplay thing is gameplay.

Hopefully they “fix” that later, as with the underwater skills of some classes.

However, yeah. Pure mechanics and not lore.

Don`t see them going there with how much “weight” cultural skills have for them anyway. They aren`t PvP.

although it’s a pure mechanics thing, it’s actually not THAT strange to imagine that the mists are intefering with a norn rev’s connection to the spirits, possibly due to the rev’s connection to the legends (eg, you can’t channel Bear because you’re already channeling Jalis)

Which is quite interesting from a power lvl perspective.

The wild spirits of the norn are supposed to be more or less on the same level as the six gods (at least from the norn side of view), so they are supposed to be very powerfull beings (which can be consumed by elder dragons, so they are beneath them in power).

Why would you rather channel some mortal being instead of a godlike being? It doesn`t really make much sense for me.

Of course we could argue that the spirit power is deluded, as it is channeled by several norn at once, while we as a player are supposedly the only reveant channeling these legends (which is hopefully somehow explained how we get them actually. Which is I guess another thing that is just glanced over)

Am I the only one who is very interested in playing this class, but the more I think about him lorewise it is just a big black hole of problems?

Then again I went of ranting and I am sorry for that.

Jaken.6801:

Which is quite interesting from a power lvl perspective.

The wild spirits of the norn are supposed to be more or less on the same level as the six gods (at least from the norn side of view), so they are supposed to be very powerfull beings (which can be consumed by elder dragons, so they are beneath them in power).

I’m not sure. The gods are put on the level of elder dragons and since one elder dragon defeated multiple spirits on his own, the gods are definitely a lot stronger than the spirits. Even when looked at from the point of view of the norn I’m not sure. They view the spirits of the wild as being the spirits of animals, right? However, they view the human gods as being ‘spirits of actions’ such as ‘war’ and ‘knowledge’ which makes them an entirely different class of spirits.

Why would you rather channel some mortal being instead of a godlike being? It doesn`t really make much sense for me.

At least Mallyx is a godlike being as he was a real threat to Kormir after she ascended. Shiro was an Envoy which also made him more than a mere mortal. Glint was a far cry away from being a mortal as well. Ventari and Jalis are perhaps a different story but still.. I think there is an argument to be made that at least Mallyx, Shiro and Glint were in fact on a similar level as the spirits of the wild.

Of course we could argue that the spirit power is deluded, as it is channeled by several norn at once, while we as a player are supposedly the only reveant channeling these legends (which is hopefully somehow explained how we get them actually. Which is I guess another thing that is just glanced over)

We channel an echo of those legends which they left in the mists through their influence, not the legends themselves. I’m not sure where you got the idea from that the player characcter is the only revenant that is channeling those legends.

The spirits
The power level of the gods are unknown in relation to the elder dragons, as they were never in direct conflict.
As fas as we know they appeared after the last rising.

The spirits are the “gods” (in lack of a better term) of the norn, who do the same stuff the six do for the humans. They are their explanation for everything. The Charr “killed” their gods, the frogs have the sun and the Asura go with the theory of everything, also know of the eternal alchemy.

As the six went away before the rising and the norn spirits are the only ones who had direct contact (and even being consumed) we can say that they are at least weaker then them.

Echos
Yes, i did not had that right. However, what is an echo? A weaker form? Something split? A copy? Just something left over?
Malyx was a thread on a god level and so was Glint (theoreticaly at least, she did not rally meddle with them as far as we know. However we know that she has seen them come and go)
Ventari however was more of an influencal person and so was Shiro mostly, till he went undead (more or less).
Jalis was a powerful mortal and also influencal.

Which version do we channel then? From which point in their life?
We see the skills, so they seem at their high point, but how strong is the echo?
If the three powerful are as strong as the spirits, wouldn`t channeling them be more an asset, instead of a hindrance?

That aside, they could work from different sources, but what do I know. I am no Asura

The player character
I think so for narrative reasons.
it would be pretty sad for the revenant class itself, if all revenant get only acess to these few legends .
These are very powerful and influencal beings in the world and right now the story is not structured in a way that tells us anything conclusive about the revenant class. How it fits in.
For all we know Rytlock sends a revenant wave back in time and acitvates the power there, changing the past and creating several plot holes.

Even so, what would be the rules to who a revenant is able to channel? Why can`t we channel someone like the Ascalon Allstars, Mhenlo and his friends?
Or just imagine offsprings of other henchmans of the past, channeling their grand grand grand grandfathers…

If everyone would be running around with these high profile channels, in a world where supposedly many revenants are around (plot altering or not), then it would be pretty weird in my opinion.
(as long as we don`t go FFX, where every summoner is apearently able to summon the same summon, except not at the same time… which could end pretty interesting: “hah, Summon block, I got Bahamut out faster then you.” or “I am falling, I just summon Valefor… ah f*** who in the world needs him right now?” )

it is established that the we as players are mostly using combat oriented versions of our abilities, that we excell in this direction.
Other elementalists, or necromancer are able to produce different feats in the same area (priory mentor is able to fly and Majory is able to create bone bridges).

So we can at least asume that our player character is in some way special (or run of the mill basic at least, with some wiggle room with traits and skills, we don`t have much of NPC compairsons, aside from OP versions of our own skills. Overall NPC usually go down way to fast and are not fighting to the best of their possible abilities).

in Jalis’s case, considering his icon and abilities, I’d say that we may be channeling him DURING the Rite Of The Great Dwarf.

as for Ventari… well… maybe that’s why the centaur stance is kinda crap?

Jaken.6801:

Of course we could argue that the spirit power is deluded, as it is channeled by several norn at once, while we as a player are supposedly the only reveant channeling these legends (which is hopefully somehow explained how we get them actually. Which is I guess another thing that is just glanced over)

No you’ll not be THE ONE. There’ll be thousands of revenants channeling the same echoes of legends from the Mists.

Kulvar.1239:

Jaken.6801:

Of course we could argue that the spirit power is deluded, as it is channeled by several norn at once, while we as a player are supposedly the only reveant channeling these legends (which is hopefully somehow explained how we get them actually. Which is I guess another thing that is just glanced over)

No you’ll not be THE ONE. There’ll be thousands of revenants channeling the same echoes of legends from the Mists.

If that is really the case (and i don`t say i want ot be the one ) i think it is kinda sad. Reducing these poweful beings to nothing more than tools.
They have some conciousness, or at least some remnants as they can talk to you, left.
If everyone is able to channel them, it kinda reduces the impact of them in my opinion.
Like using the same magic cards: “I got Ulgozz the destroyer to trample your army. He was a war hero, yadada…” “Pshh.. i got him too, big whoop.”

I am talking about the narrative perspective of our characters powers, not the game mechanics, though i think i mentioned above already.

They can talk to you. But they are not the true immortal spirit of these characters.

The Mists is a very complicated place. Time is irrelevant there. Any event, big or small, leaves some level of impression on the Mists that carry on as echoes that can be experienced by those who travel into the Mists.

The SPVP maps? Those are echoes of past battles that we re-live by entering the Mists and reaching these echoes. The Battle of Kyhlo isn’t just a catchy name they gave the map, it’s a reference to an event in the lore. It was a battle in the Third Guild War between Ascalon’s Chosen and Zealots of Shiverpeaks. Legacy of the Foefire should be obvious. There’s a reason one side has a charr lord and the other an Ascalonian ghost lord. Not all the maps are as obvious, but that’s how Anet explains the SPVP game mechanics within the lore. We’re revisiting old battles.

Similar to how these battles constantly replay over and over in the Mists the legends we channel resonate within the Mists as a separate entity from the actual person. What we’re channeling is like a reflection of the original in the water that is the Mists.

Regarding the gods, spirits, and dragons:

The dragons have been described from the beginning as ‘rivalling’ or even ‘exceeding’ the power of the gods. This suggests, though, that the gods are at least comparable, probably the closest thing we currently know of to the Elder Dragons.

When it comes to the Spirits of the Wild: The norn see the gods as being “Spirits of Action”, but this just means that they see a similarity, not that they feel that they’re equal in power. In fact, I recall a discussion somewhere – I think it was in a lore interview – where it was mentioned that the norn recognised the “Spirits of Action” as being more powerful than the animal spirits. However, the gods were aloof even at the time of Guild Wars 1 – the norn prefer to have a more intimate and equal relationship with beings that, while less powerful, are more directly involved with Tyria and much more likely to intervene when asked.

They just don’t see a point to worshipping from afar beings which, while they may be more powerful, have not intervened in centuries. And they probably wouldn’t want to even if the gods were more interventionalist – they prefer to have more of a ‘friends who do favours for one another’ relationship than the ‘master and servant/student’ relationship that worship of the Six is closer to.

Regarding the legends: As people have said before, the legends don’t actually contain the spirits or personalities of the individual being invoked. They’re more like echoes or recordings in the Mists, that contain a fractal of their power, but are not the original entity. They’re like the echo of Turai Ossa during the Tests of Fake Ascension – they repeat things that the original said, they may even do so at appropriate times, but they are not the spirit of the original.

(Which is why it’s perfectly possible to have an army of revenants channeling the same legend at once…)

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding the legends: As people have said before, the legends don’t actually contain the spirits or personalities of the individual being invoked. They’re more like echoes or recordings in the Mists, that contain a fractal of their power, but are not the original entity. They’re like the echo of Turai Ossa during the Tests of Fake Ascension – they repeat things that the original said, they may even do so at appropriate times, but they are not the spirit of the original.

(Which is why it’s perfectly possible to have an army of revenants channeling the same legend at once…)

Actually this is incorrect. In a hidden arcana article about revenant ( https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/ ) they say the exact opposite of this.
“A revenant’s legends are not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient, with opinions and personalities of their own”

Careful wording there, SkullMuffinz.

They are not “merely” echoes, which means that they are – but they’re uncommon kinds of echoes. They’re not like what you’d see of Burian and Mordakai in Battle for Khylo PvP map, which stand there looking pretty – and they’re a bit more than the Turai echo in Episode 8 (which is where drax is wrong). They interact with you, they talk, but they’re not the original nor are they as good as the original. They’re still a copy – just an advanced copy.

Think of the Stronghold heroes. They seem to be effectively the same. They talk, they move, they react, they think, but they’re still just copies. Echoes.

Still feels weird to me if it is canon that every revenant is able to channel the same legends.
They become nothing but tools then, like a fighting style or so.
Robs the class of a lot of uniqueness.

Sure mechanicly everyone has them, sure. However I am interested in the canon?
I mean that can`t be the only echoes a revenant can channel.

Then again this still doesn`t answer the question why them above the spirits.
Where is the difference if the mists more or less make up everything.

I’m sure others can channel different legends. I fully expect to see some NPCs who channel legends we as the player don’t have access to. Perhaps one that is important to the NPC’s work or backstory. Like a norn revenant NPC channeling Jora when fighting the Sons of Svanir or a revenant in LA channeling the Mad King Thorn against his will during Halloween. Maybe we’ll see an asuran scientist channeling Snaff so he can gain access to Snaff’s genius mind to improve his own work.

Obviously they can’t let us choose ANY hero in Tyria’s history to channel. The sheer number of skills would be mind boggling. However there is room for more legends. Future elite specializations will no doubt introduce new legends that can be channeled similar to how Herald gives access to Glint.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Careful wording there, SkullMuffinz.

They are not “merely” echoes, which means that they are – but they’re uncommon kinds of echoes. They’re not like what you’d see of Burian and Mordakai in Battle for Khylo PvP map, which stand there looking pretty – and they’re a bit more than the Turai echo in Episode 8 (which is where drax is wrong). They interact with you, they talk, but they’re not the original nor are they as good as the original. They’re still a copy – just an advanced copy.

Think of the Stronghold heroes. They seem to be effectively the same. They talk, they move, they react, they think, but they’re still just copies. Echoes.

Another analogy that I was thinking of was Dessa in the Mistlock Observatory fractal, who clearly is sapient… but the fact that she resets on attempting to leave the observatory suggests that she is not the original Dessa but a fractal echo.

Different levels of echoes, but they are still echoes, not the original spirit.